Myths, legends, anecdotes, tales, yarns, what have you. Let's hear them. I'm particularly interested in Bigfoot, not his Central Asian cousin, the yeti, for good reasons (see below). Where did Bigfoot come from? Is Bigfoot intelligent? Does he serve the forces of good or the powers of evil?
Warning: this thread has an ulterior motive. I'm doing a presentation at an academic conference on Bigfoot in Mormon folklore in a couple of days (see here and here - I'm on deck Friday AM), and I'm interested in getting a sense (from a highly non-representative group, but so are the people going to this thing) as to what sort of ideas and stories are circulating. Particularly from all the Mormons out there.
Yeah, Bigfoot is so eighties. But there has to be some residue other than Harry and the Hendersons. Right? *hopeful*
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
Eternal optimism. The stuff life is made of - (grin).
Why Mormon folklore? The Pacific NW tribes surely have a great deal of folklore surrounding this creature - have you tried there?
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
It is certainly a new angle for recent discussions. From my understanding, there really isn't much to tell (and I have studied LDS Theology and History as much as I have UFO's and Bigfoot). There are no more or less stories in LDS circles than there are in the general Mountain region population. Generally, discussion leads to "Cain's Relatives" if it comes to Bigfoot at all. Not to mention, at Hatrack you are dealing with people who are more skeptical of such things than usual. I will be greatly surprised if you get many answers to your request here.
On the other hand, Mormons and stories of UFO sightings are far more available. I would take an educated guess that one out of every 100 Western Mormonhas some UFO story to tell. At least, that has been my experience.
Posted by John Van Pelt (Member # 5767) on :
It was either Steven Wright or Mitch Hedberg who quipped: "I think Bigfoot is blurry...."
Posted by MattB (Member # 1116) on :
quote:Why Mormon folklore? The Pacific NW tribes surely have a great deal of folklore surrounding this creature - have you tried there?
To the first, mainly because it's the Mormon History Association. *grin* As to the second, not so much the NW tribes as the Utes and Paiutes; but I am quite interested in how these legends - native, Mormon, mainstream American - are conflated. Interesting things seem to happen.
quote:There are no more or less stories in LDS circles than there are in the general Mountain region population. Generally, discussion leads to "Cain's Relatives" if it comes to Bigfoot at all.
Exactly. In fact the title of my paper is "A Mormon Bigfoot: David Patten's Cain and the conception of evil in LDS folklore." Might I ask where you're from, Occ? As I've been putting this thing together, I've found the Cain thing seems to come up in Utah Mormon circles (where I started writing the thing) much more so than in DC (where I am now). So I think you're right about there being some sort of regional correlation - though the religious influence on the legend is also unmistakable. I think the Cain legend is something the Saints carried West with them, where it met up with the Bigfoot story.
I also think regional influence is probably true with UFOs as well; something about the wide open deserts and prevalent military facilities of the West.
quote:On the other hand, Mormons and stories of UFO sightings are far more available. I would take an educated guess that one out of every 100 Western Mormonhas some UFO story to tell. At least, that has been my experience.
Any thoughts on why this might be? Another guy on my panel is doing Mormon UFO sightings, particularly in the Nauvoo period, and he's got some thoughts. I'll have to ask him.
For no real reason at all, I pick Wright.
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
The Utes? Hmmmm. Wrong geographical area, I'm thinking. You'll have a little better luck looking into some of the coastal Salish tribes - and in the Olympics and Cascades, where "Bigfoot" mythology is, well, big.
And I think it's sinful to try to pin Cain on some furry critter that probably gave birth to Chewbacca. *tsk, tsk*
(edit for spelling gave as gace)
Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
I started out in DC and moved to Utah about 1987, and I haven't heard any Bigfoot or Cain stories. But not being caucasian, folks probably play their cards close around me.
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
MattB, you're probably already aware of this, but I'll throw it out. The Miracle of Forgiveness by Spencer W. Kimball includes a reference to a story of an encounter with Cain (I forget whose encounter and when) but the description is very like bigfoot and was often used by some missionaries (of my era and only amongst themselves as far as I know) to "prove" to other missionaries that bigfoot exists.
At any rate, if you're not aware of that quote it might be worth looking up the book.
Posted by DarkKnight (Member # 7536) on :
A lot of those Bigfoot sightings could have just been people seeing Robin Williams without a shirt on too. Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Nah-- Williams is too short. . .
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:Does he serve the forces of good or the powers of evil?
He serves the forces of Awesome.
There was a wonderful short story in Asimov's recently about Bigfoot.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
My mother has one heck of a wackjob theory on this.
She claims that, when Cain killed Abel, God condemned him and his progeny to live on earth until judgement day and made them extra hairy to mark them as off-limits. They don't die of natural causes or disease, but we humans can kill them. If a human kills one of Cain or his kind, that human has an extra bad punishment waiting for him. What that punishment is has never been stated.
As for the great flood, the theory goes that Cain and his kind built themselves a raft and hung on for dear life while it rained and rained and rained, and continued hanging on until the water went down. No mention of food or non-salt water for survival.
My mother also has theories that white sugar and flour are communist plots to take over the world by destroying our brains. Fluoride is also included in that theory as its a poison that kills us slowly. Well, in my case, she was actually correct, but more from coincidence than anything else - I'm allergic to fluoride.
My mother self-identifies as LDS.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
If you want to look up Bigfoot -- research more on Cryptozoology
That topic should be able to give you more of a background.
FG
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Big-foot is an alien robot that helped Steve Austin save the world at least once. (If it was on TV it must be true.)
I think Big-foot is much more 70's than 80's.
Posted by John Van Pelt (Member # 5767) on :
Also: 'bigfoot' and 'bigfeet' are acceptable words in Scrabble.
Stephen Pinker must have grinned from ear to ear in LOTR-1 when Bilbo was announcing his retirement and said 'Proudfeet', and a voice from the assembled hobbits ('hobbit' also good in Scrabble) called out correcting him: 'Proudfoots!'
Okay I know this was offtopic. I'm sorry.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Hey coz - good luck with the presentation. Posted by unicornwhisperer (Member # 294) on :
I just have too much time on my hands.... Posted by unicornwhisperer (Member # 294) on :
John... Doesn't Bilbo say "Proudfoots" and the hobbit corrects him "Proudfeet"....?
Posted by John Van Pelt (Member # 5767) on :
quote:... Doesn't Bilbo say "Proudfoots" and the hobbit corrects him "Proudfeet"....?
Hmm, could be. That would make sense as Bilbo was the better educated and some of his relatives philistines...
My memory isn't what was it?
Posted by MattB (Member # 1116) on :
quote:My mother has one heck of a wackjob theory on this.
She claims that, when Cain killed Abel, God condemned him and his progeny to live on earth until judgement day and made them extra hairy to mark them as off-limits. They don't die of natural causes or disease, but we humans can kill them. If a human kills one of Cain or his kind, that human has an extra bad punishment waiting for him. What that punishment is has never been stated.
As for the great flood, the theory goes that Cain and his kind built themselves a raft and hung on for dear life while it rained and rained and rained, and continued hanging on until the water went down. No mention of food or non-salt water for survival.
Fortunately for my purposes, this isn't as wackjob as you might think. I've got a few dozen stories very much like this. A couple of interesting deviations here, though: First, this is one of very few that identify Cain's progeny as also being Bigfeet. Usually, it's just him. This is valuable, b/c it melds with Bigfoot family stories. Second, most other flood-survival stories have Cain clinging to the outside of the ark. I suppose the existence of more than one makes a raft necessary.
This is good stuff. Thanks, quid.
I'll look up that Salish tribes as well - any particular legend in mind, Shan?
And FG, thanks for the reference. Coleman's actually a Bigfoot specialist (I've looked at some of his other stuff) and I'm slightly bemused to realize that I've become so versed in Bigfoot lore as to recognize author's names.
I'm sorry you've missed out on eccentric Mormon folklore, pooka. Though, after quid has enlightened us about the theological dangers of flour, I suppose you may not be.
Karl, it's on pages 127-128 of the hardcover version, in case anyone wants to look it up. That sort of extrapolation of Bigfoot from that story - wherein the creature identified as Cain is described as tall and hairy - is exactly the sort of thing my paper's about.
UW, that's a fun website. Next time I get back to Utah I'll have to look those people up.
quote:Hey coz - good luck with the presentation.
Thanks, kat. Last night, I was mildly amazed to learn that John-n-Amy are flying out to see me talk. I'll tell 'em hi.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Ah, that's cool! And thanks. Posted by Peter (Member # 4373) on :
quote:Originally posted by DarkKnight: A lot of those Bigfoot sightings could have just been people seeing Robin Williams without a shirt on too.
hehe.....yeh.......
Posted by whiskysunrise (Member # 6819) on :
I have heard the Cain is Bigfoot story. But I don't remember enough of it to retell it, sorry. (I am a Mormon from Utah.)
Lee Nelson has written some things here is one title. Taming the Sasquatch : and other Bigfoot tales I think that he also wrote a book that had some short stories in it with one about Bigfoot, but I can't remember what it is called. Hope that helps.
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
Dude - Utah Mormons are weird!
Posted by whiskysunrise (Member # 6819) on :
Funny. Posted by MattB (Member # 1116) on :
quote:Lee Nelson has written some things here is one title. Taming the Sasquatch : and other Bigfoot tales
Ooh. I think I wrote this title down at some point but I never actually found the book. Thanks for the reminder.
quote:Dude - Utah Mormons are weird!
Once you learn to embrace the wackiness and simply accept that flouride in the water will be on the ballot every other year, it's surprising how amusing it all becomes.
Posted by 0range7Penguin (Member # 7337) on :
One of my nicknames is the "Yeti" due to my being 6'3" and hairy too boot. Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
It is pretty funny, Matt. And I know wacky people... I'm related to militia members.
I just think it's really weird to see backwoods hick paranoia (which I''m used to) mixed with religious teachings (which I'm used to associating with the few levelheaded voices of reason). That's why Utah does and always will baffle me.
Posted by Portabello (Member # 7710) on :
I'm a Mormon and have lived in Texas, Oklahoma, and Utah. I've never heard any Bigfoot or Cain or 3 Nephites or John stories (although I have heard *of* those last two).
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
The 3 Nephites are mentioned in OSC's story "Pageant Wagon". Deaver Teague is asked by the grandmother if he is one of the 3 who had been left behind on the earth.
Nothing more to add.
Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
Stories of Yeti's and Bigfeet are probably just left over from before the Neanderthalls finally went completely extinct. Or maybe when people still see them its just surviving groups of Neanderthalls barely clinging to survival
But judging from the recent findings of "hobbit" bones matching a phillipino legend of tiny men and the theories by some scientists that they may have survived as late as the 1500s and 1600s before going extinct, I'd bet that Bigfoot stories are similar of similar origin. Just caused by Neanderthalls or other humanoid, but more ape like, relatives of ours.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
I think they're probably just people seeing various large hairy things in the wilderness, obscurely, and making the rest up.
The video that really inspired the bigfoot craze was later found to be a hoax.
Posted by Just another Dharma bum (Member # 6879) on :
But there are still plastor casts, pictures, droppings and I believe a scientist actually found hair...
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Care to link to any of that evidence? I bet for anything you link to I can find places where people have shown it to be something ordinary.
Posted by mimsies (Member # 7418) on :
Ah the Stickmen! They are up near where my family and tribe live as well.
I believe in Bigfoot.
Posted by MattB (Member # 1116) on :
quote:And I know wacky people... I'm related to militia members.
That's both funny and fascinating. I wish I had wacky people in my family.
quote:I just think it's really weird to see backwoods hick paranoia (which I''m used to) mixed with religious teachings (which I'm used to associating with the few levelheaded voices of reason). That's why Utah does and always will baffle me.
That's actually a very keen observation. Well put.
I'm off to Vermont, all (did I mention that this conference is in Vermont?). Thanks for the comments.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:I wish I had wacky people in my family.
Way too easy.
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
Are you proposing, Kat? Posted by whiskysunrise (Member # 6819) on :
I've also heard that there is a monster in Bear Lake. Something like the one in Loch Ness.
Posted by Sopwith (Member # 4640) on :
Check out "Naked Came the Sasquatch."
It's flat out hilarious if you can find a copy of the book.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
MattB, I'm glad I could help. I think.
Keep in mind, though, that although my mother self-identifies as LDS, she is and always has been fringe at best. Oh, and she's a psychopath. And I wish I was kidding about that. Posted by MattB (Member # 1116) on :
Well, I'm back.
quote:I've also heard that there is a monster in Bear Lake. Something like the one in Loch Ness.
This was actually the third paper on our panel; the first one was me, the second was on UFO sightings in Nauvoo. We presented on Friday morning; by the grad student reception that night, our names were legend.
Additionally, I talked to Levi Peterson (THE Levi Peterson, for those of you versed in Mormon literature) afterwards, and he invited me to submit my paper to Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, which he edits. So, good weekend.
And, during q&a, someone asked how Mormon folklore dealt with the fact that the Bigfoot legend seems to imply the existence of many Bigfeet (foots?) So I got a chance to whip out quid's story. Hatrack is surprisingly useful.
quote: katharina Member Member # 827
posted May 25, 2005 05:20 PM --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I wish I had wacky people in my family. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Way too easy. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 16899 | Registered: Mar 2000 | IP: Logged |
Annie Member Member # 295
posted May 25, 2005 05:24 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Are you proposing, Kat?
I actually think she's engaging in some friendly mockery of certain members of the Pilkington clan. Or my little sister. Neither of which I would necessarily disagree with. But I'll take what I can get. Posted by MattB (Member # 1116) on :
Oh, incidentally, now that it's somewhat public, if anybody is desperately interested in Bigfoot and/or Cain and/or LDS racial theology and/or interesting stories about Joseph Fielding Smith's brother Wesley, drop me an email and I'd be happy to send a copy onwards.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Great job. Congratz.
ps. Statistically speaking, if you don't have any wacky people in your family, you may be the wacky person in the family.
Posted by Little_Doctor (Member # 6635) on :
Bigfoot is real. End of story. Posted by MattB (Member # 1116) on :
quote:Statistically speaking, if you don't have any wacky people in your family, you may be the wacky person in the family.
Hm. Good point. Are you (and, you force me to acknowledge, kat) implying that spending an inordinate amount of time thinking about Bigfoot makes one wacky?
'Cause I don't see it. Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
Well, here ya go - info from the PacNW . . .
quote: Sasquatch conference tackles mating habits of questionable creature
I don't know whether Sasquatch -- also known as Bigfoot -- really exists, so I didn't know what to make of the Sasquatch Research Conference in Bellingham from May 27 to May 29.
Speakers are set to talk about a lot of Sasquatch stuff -- including their sex lives.
How can anyone know anything about the sex life of a creature that may or may not exist?
So, I called one of the organizers, Jason Valenti, a call, and it seems that a lot of people have spotted, smelled or heard 10-foot-tall, 1,000-pound hairy primates in the Northwest woods -- and across the nation.
Valenti said he saw a Sasquatch while driving down a Florida panhandle road back in 1996.
"It completely changed my life," he said.
People in the Northwest are more accepting of Sasquatch, and it seems that more of the creatures hang out here, Valenti said.
And that's why Valenti now lives in Washington and is setting up his conference.
A lot of Sasquatch experts, including Dr. Jeff Meldrum, a primate expert from Idaho State University, are on the speaker list.
I've spent a lot of my life loping around the woods and wild places, and I've never seen a footprint, found hair or seen a giant primate gallivanting around.
Then again, you'll see a lot of weird stuff out there.
I thought I was suffering from sunstroke when I saw my first water ouzel, which are also called dippers.
I was fishing the upper Deschutes River in Oregon, and I saw a fat little, drab bird strolling along the bottom of the stream, poking into the rocks for bugs.
Wild!
Water ouzels are easier to find than a Sasquatch -- if those big primates exist at all.
I'll never really know unless I see one for myself -- and I guess I hope I never do. I do know that I'm not interested in their sex lives -- even in a hypothetical, academic way.
MattB, I'm glad, I think, that my mother came in handy. I did mention that she thinks fluoride is a communist plot to take over the free world, right? Um, yeah...
I'd be interested in reading your paper if you wouldn't mind sending it to me.
Posted by MattB (Member # 1116) on :
Sure. It's on the way.
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
Will all three of them be published or available to the public? I am fascinated by the paranormal and would love to know some of the conclusions. Maybe you could recap for those of us who weren't there?
Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
On viewing this again, I wonder if the Book of Mormon Story of Coriantumr strenghthens the credulity of big foot believers. For those who don't know or don't care, Coriantumr was the last of the Jaredite nation who all died in a vicious war. He apparently abided on the earth long enough to meet up with the Nephites. Which is part of why historical evidence that there were people here before 637 B.C. isn't the problem I thought it was as a teenager). And in the Jaredite record which encompasses about a few dozen generations it mentions that there were people here before them.
Anyway, some people think the Jaredites were the Olmec people, whose sculptures suggest a more Africanoid appearance than the Nephite/Lamanite group. In addition, there was the prophet who recorded the history of the Jaredites hiding in a cave somewhere. Coriantumr apparently outlived him, but he was around and his record was found later on by an expedition of Nephites looking for new territory.
Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
P.S. When we were stationed on Crete, the base library had a book explaining how all of Joseph Smith's heavenly manifestations were consistent with modern accounts of UFO abduction. Which I thought was kind of weird. There was also a lot of OSC books there. Disproportional, I think, for the size of the Library.
Posted by MattB (Member # 1116) on :
quote:Will all three of them be published or available to the public? I am fascinated by the paranormal and would love to know some of the conclusions. Maybe you could recap for those of us who weren't there?
To the first, I have no idea. Dialogue is reviewing my piece, but who knows if it'll make it through the gauntlet. I don't know if Mike and Alan (the UFO and Bear Lake Monster guys, respectively) are planning on submitting. But here's a brief recap: My paper begins with David Patten, first president of the Quorum of the Twelve apostles, who claimed to have encountered Cain in 1835. I present evidence that his story was believed by leaders and lay members of the church in the 19th century as evidence of Satanic aggression towards the Church, but in the second half of the twentieth, has become conflated with the better known Bigfoot myth. I argue that this is due to two reasons: first, because the Mormon conception of evil has shifted; Mormons of the nineteenth century externalized it, presenting encounters with Satan in physical, materialistic terms of struggle. In the twentieth century, the emphasis is on evil as wrong action. Secondly, the shift reflects a movement away from racial theologies; Cain is no longer seen as the father of the cursed black race. Making him Bigfoot provides a way around that.
Okay, that was longer than I thought. More briefly: Mike documented dozens of strange lights in the sky over Navuoo in the early 1840s, spelling out words or dates, or sometimes materializing into visions of soldiers or angels. These came mostly from the Times and Seasons, the official newspaper, but also some from diaries. Mike argued that these were perceived as signs of the Second Coming until a Millerite (a sect founded by William Miller, who predicted the Second Coming regularly, and was often - well, always - wrong) arrived in Nauvoo and agreed with the Saints' interpretation. When William Miller's prediction (in October 1843, I think), failed, Joseph Smith put the clamps down on Second Coming predictions and reports ceased.
Alan's paper looked at the Bear Lake Monster, which was frequently discussed in late 19th century Utah, and which, apparentally, Brigham Young, Wilford Woodruff, and George Q. Cannon all believed in. He tied this legend into American ideas of the frontier and exploration, maps that say "Here There be Dragons," and PT Barnum's freak show.
How's that?
Posted by MattB (Member # 1116) on :
By the way, since MHA let us get away with it this year, we're going to try to do part II of the panel next year at the Casper, Wyoming conference. Mike's going to take his UFO studies into the twentieth century, and I'm probably going to examine raising the dead stories.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Cool.
Thanks for sending the stuff to me. I haven't looked at it yet because I'm using a nearly dead computer with horrible display because mine is currently in the hospital. I'm sure it'll be fascinating reading.
And you know what? I might just work my mother's wackjob theory into a novel. It could be fun. And totally mocking her at the same time would just be an added bonus. *wipes tears* So yeah, thanks. You've given me another idea - or, rather, brought it to my attention.
Posted by whiskysunrise (Member # 6819) on :
If you don't mind sending it to me I would like to read your paper. Thanks.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Aren't we an odd bunch? Posted by MattB (Member # 1116) on :
quote:And you know what? I might just work my mother's wackjob theory into a novel. It could be fun.
Well, I'd wish you luck and everything, but I'm sorry to say that you've been beaten to the punch by the irresistable prose of one Shane Lester. Cower before his generous use of adjectives and clumsy exposition!
WS - I'll send it on tonight. Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
Frankly, I found too much "angle" to your paper. It became too much of a "race card" discussion than a Bigfoot one. I guess I was hoping for more of a "history" than a "sociopolitical" paper.
Posted by MattB (Member # 1116) on :
Okay. Sorry.
I guess the thing is that Cain stories have been around for four thousand years, and in the Church specifically for a hundred and seventy, and for the great majority of both of those periods the race issue has been fundamental to how people understand them. There's no way to get around it. Bigfoot might represent a shift (for Mormons at least), but it's early yet.
I don't really think it's a sociological paper (not nearly boring and quantitative enough ). It's not classic history either; I would call it folklore studies, but I'm not trained in that field and don't know how to use its tools. I think it's closest to being intellectual history.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
quote: Well, I'd wish you luck and everything, but I'm sorry to say that you've been beaten to the punch by the irresistable prose of one Shane Lester. Cower before his generous use of adjectives and clumsy exposition!
Eh. I can do better. And my story would be far better and far more interesting, and different, too, so really, his story has no bearing on mine.
But thanks for letting me know, anyway.
I haven't read your piece yet - I still don't have a decent laptop, and the one I'm using has a very difficult display. Won't be much longer before it gives out entirely. I'll let you know what I think after I get my new laptop this afternoon. In theory. Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
I just read the part of The Miracle of Forgiveness with the Cain story and remembered this thread.
Now, since I'm curious, I'd be interested in reading your paper, Matt, if the offer still stands. (email's in the profile)
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And I wish I was kidding about that. ![[Wall Bash]](graemlins/wallbash.gif)
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*wipes tears* So yeah, thanks. You've given me another idea - or, rather, brought it to my attention.