So I can't find another thread that specifically allows spoilers for those who have seen the movie, so I'm starting one.
I liked the movie overall, and agree with most of what was said in the other non-spoiler thread. I just have a question.
SPOILERS:
1. When Luke asks his sister if she remembers her mother in RotJ, and she says she only remembers her a little bit, and that she was sad, is she referring to Padme or her step-mom, because she obviously cannot remember Padme since she died during birth. But it seemed to make more sense that she was talking about her real mom, not her step-mom. Or did Princess Leia (sp?) just watch some videos of her mom as a child?
Or did Lucas just mess up on this detail?
2. Why wasn't Jar Jar given a bigger role? He was my most favoritest character in the whole Star Wars galaxy. Wait--actually my question is, why wasn't he killed?
Posted by Marlozhan (Member # 2422) on :
Now I remember my main beef with the movie...actually with the whole story.
Why do I feel like the Jedi never actually save the galaxy in the end? I know they win some fights here and there, but it is the dark side, Vader, that kills the emperor.
And I don't know if killing the emperor counts as redemption after killing innocent children and other who-knows-how-many people throughout the decades. Vader may have finally forsaken the dark side, but does he now get to go to Jedi heaven after all that he did?
Maybe I'm just too merciless. Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
1. Lucas probably just messed up. There are other little inconsistencies between the trilogies, but oh well. Every series of books, movies, or whatever has these little glitches
2. There was really no need to kill Jar Jar. It's just good that he doesn't speak at all. Even one line of his goofy dialogue would have been out of place in such a serious film.
No one ever said that the jedi would be the ones to destroy the Sith, the prophecy is that Anakin would, and he did. Whether or not that's enough to redeem him is simply a matter of opinion.
Posted by Portabello (Member # 7710) on :
1. Lucas didn't mess up here. She had no idea that the parents who raised her weren't her biological parents. She's talking about her adopted mom.
Posted by St. Yogi (Member # 5974) on :
1. Make sense a Star Wars movie must not. Better if accept you will. edit: Or you could wait for the überspecial special edition where Leia's answer to Luke's question will be a resounding no.
2. Proof that even Lucas can listen to his fans sometimes.
Posted by Portabello (Member # 7710) on :
About Vader, I agree. I don't see how refusing to murder your son, and then killing the man who you have sworn your alleigance to is redeeming.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
quote:1. Lucas didn't mess up here. She had no idea that the parents who raised her weren't her biological parents. She's talking about her adopted mom.
Then why did Luke emphasize, "Your REAL mother"? She knew that she was adopted. Why else would she have accepted that Vader was her real father so quickly if she thought that she was raised by her real father?
[ May 19, 2005, 03:52 PM: Message edited by: neo-dragon ]
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
I wanted an explanation on why Yoda was stuck on Degaba. I thought they’d link the evil cave there to something he had to guard or protect.
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
Oh yeah, and C3PO getting his mind wiped was cool. Now only R2D2 knows the whole story.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Well, Porter, they don't actually say that Darth Vader was redeemed into Anakin Skywalker in RotJ-although the impression is so strong that it may as well have been fact.
In my own Star Wars head, Darth Vader refusing to murder his son and then finally killing Darth Sidious-as he wanted to decades ago-is just the first step on a very, very, very long road to redemption. Who knows what he's doing while he's wavery and blue?
Posted by Portabello (Member # 7710) on :
quote:I wanted an explanation on why Yoda was stuck on Degaba.
Yoda explains that. Until the time is right, the Jedi must dissapear.
Actually, he wasn't stuck there. He was hiding there.
neo-dragon -- I guess it's been too long since I've seen the original trilogy. I need to fix that.
Posted by DavidR (Member # 7473) on :
I watched Episodes I and II in the weeks leading up to last nights release of Episode III. I plan to watch the original trillogy over the next week or two. I don't recall the Luke using the word real in that line where he asks Leia if she remembers her mother. I suppose I will find out for sure when I watch it again.
Remember that the first decisive step toward the dark side was when he chose to help the Chancellor against Mace Windu during their fight. Up to that point it had all been doing what he thought was right and following bad advice and his feelings. At that point he made a choice with full knowledge of it consequences to follow the teachings of the Sith. When Darth Vader chose to save his son and kill the Emperor he was making a consious choice to turn his back on the Sith and follow the teachings of the Jedi. Whether or not that moment was enough to redeem him there is a parallel between those moments. They are the pivot points of Anakin's journey with the force.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Darn, I thought Jar-Jar was going to become the Emporer.
Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
But, when he came to Sidious' defense, he thought he was protecting an injured foe (pleading for his life) from a Jedi who had ceased to follow the code. He was arguing that Palpatine should stand trial, which seems very idealistiic, actually.
When he stops Mace from killing Palpatine and Palpatine blasts Mace (proving he was not as helpless as he seemed) Anakin immediately drops his saber and says "What have I done?"
Palpy: You just helped me kill one or the leaders of the Jedi Council. He was trying to take over the Senate, anyway. Better help me some more, 'cause if you go back to the Jedi and own up to it, your @$$ is grass.
Anakin: Well, crap.
Palpy: I can help you save Padme...
and so on.
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
*raises hand* Woo woo I got questions.
1. I haven't seen the movie yet. Are there any cool details I should look for? (Like spotting ET or the actor from Willow in Episode I.)
2. In Episode VI, why was it so easy for Darth Vader to kill the Emperor?
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
Because Vader is as strong as the Emperor if not stronger
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
Beren,
1. The actor from Willow was in episode 1 because he plays Wicket the Ewok in Return of the Jedi. Which is why he got to play Willow(written/produced by lucas, maybe directed too)
2. I think because the emperor was old and weak and was trying to keep a whole battle in his mind at the same time, while sending a constant stream of lightning into Luke and wasn't prepared for Vader's turn.
Posted by Taalcon (Member # 839) on :
quote:Why do I feel like the Jedi never actually save the galaxy in the end? I know they win some fights here and there, but it is the dark side, Vader, that kills the emperor.
The Prophecy was of one to bring Ballance to the Force. I think this included wiping out the uber-dogmatic Jedi Knights, as well as the Sith. Basically, Anakin was a giant RESET button for Force-usage.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Did anyone else notice that Anakin killed Count Dooku after said he should have stood trial, and did so because Palpatine said he was too dangerous to stand trial.
Then later on when Mace is telling him they must kill Palpatine because he is too dangerous to stand trial, suddenly Anakin has an attack of morality and decides he MUST stand trial.
I know, I know, there are a dozen reasons why Anakin switches back and forth here. But it's a clear cut irony I hope everyone got to appreciate.
Posted by DavidR (Member # 7473) on :
quote:Did anyone else notice that Anakin killed Count Dooku after said he should have stood trial, and did so because Palpatine said he was too dangerous to stand trial.
Then later on when Mace is telling him they must kill Palpatine because he is too dangerous to stand trial, suddenly Anakin has an attack of morality and decides he MUST stand trial.
Yes I noticed that. This is why I felt that this action was the point where Anakin made a concious decision to follow the Sith instead of the Jedi way. Remember, he had been having visions that Padme and his childern would die. He couldn't tell the Jedi because then they would know that he had married Padme so he told his other mentor, Palpatine, who used the confusion and emotions of the situation to his own purposes. At the time he intervened he believed that if Palpatine died he would not be able to save Padme, which is ironic since his actions in betraying the Jedi and siding with Palpatine were what led to her dying.
Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
I thought that was rather obvious.
What I am wondering is, if obi-won knows leia is luke's sister now, why is he suprised in the original series.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Geez, I was just wondering if everyone noticed.
Didn't think I'd get a lecture on how stupid and obvious I'm being.
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
quote: What I am wondering is, if obi-won knows leia is luke's sister now, why is he suprised in the original series.
suprised about what?
Posted by DavidR (Member # 7473) on :
Sorry Lyrhawn, I wasn't trying to come down on you. Earlier I had commented that when Anakin intervened on behalf of Palpatine, he had made his first concious decision to follow the Sith, and another poster came back saying that he was simply protecting an injured foe who should be given the chance of a trial. I was too busy to answer right away, but when I saw your post I saw an opportunity to use it in my response. I just wasn't clear in the way I did it. Sorry about any confusion or hurt feelings.
[Edited to fix a very unfortunate dropped word]
[ May 19, 2005, 08:40 PM: Message edited by: DavidR ]
Posted by ? (Member # 2319) on :
See, I never saw Darth Vader killing the Emperor as bringing balance to the force.
Maybe I'm completely misinterpreting this. But I always thought Darth Vader balanced both sides of the force. When episode 4 begins their are only 4 people that we know that can use the force. Two on the dark side, and two on the light side. Whereas before, their was a big favor to the light side.
Just my thoughts.
?
Posted by Darth Ender (Member # 7694) on :
SPOILER:
I win!
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
And then after Jedi there was only 1 force user. So that's pretty balanced. So both places are balanced.
Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
I meant when yoda tells obi-won that "there is another" when luke runs of to cloud city.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Yeah that's a good point. Unless Obi-Wan just assumed there wasn't time to train her, or that she might not have the Force with her.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
quote:In my own Star Wars head, Darth Vader refusing to murder his son and then finally killing Darth Sidious-as he wanted to decades ago-is just the first step on a very, very, very long road to redemption.
I grok this idea. Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
Responding to the point about Obi-wan not knowing about Leia, we don't actually see/hear a reaction from Obi-wan when Yoda says "there is another", so how do you know he was surprised? Maybe he said that Luke was their only hope because he figured that there wouldn't be time to train Leia, and Yoda simply thought otherwise.
Posted by Wowbagger the Infinitely Prolonged (Member # 7476) on :
Who were the good guys in this movie? I mean Palpatine claimed they were going to take over the senate, and guess what they were going to do it! What a great group those Jedi are 1.You don't choose to be a Jedi. They take them from an extremely young age, before they can make the choice themselves and are pretty much brainwashed. 2. You're not allowed to have any personal attachments, you can't get married, you can't have feelings. 3. They "defend" democracy yet don't practice it. The Jedi concil alone picks it's members. 4. They have pretty much become enforcers of a corupt Republic.
The Jedi needed to be destroyed. They haven't adapted with the times, and are stuck in a dogmatic rut. I haven't read NJO but I'm pretty sure the New Jedi are what the Jedi should be.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Palpatine is evil because he growls a lot. Posted by Faire (Member # 8065) on :
Also, he's ugly.
So duh, he's the bad guy.
The same thing happens to Anakin; when he gets evil, he gets ugly.
So, the obvious lessen here is, beware of the ugly people.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
But, but Yoda is ugly, and growls too....
Posted by Wowbagger the Infinitely Prolonged (Member # 7476) on :
Most of the Jedi are ugly. I knew they were evil.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
In the EU, the Jedi's primary fault lies in distancing themselves from everyone else. An 'Ivory Tower' syndrome, really, which is pretty darn accurate. To wit, not, you know, helping Anakin's mother out of slavery...
...or not doing something about entire systems on the Outer Rim which permitted things like sentient-being slavery.
Posted by Faire (Member # 8065) on :
Yoda's not ugly. He's funny looking and kind of cute. And even the ugly Jedi are noble looking, if nothing else. Turning to the Dark Side means getting deformed and scary looking. Not being non-human-esque to start with.
Posted by Wowbagger the Infinitely Prolonged (Member # 7476) on :
Um, what about Count Dooku? He is noble looking too. And he was evil.
Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
No, he was double evil. I mean, look at how many trolls and uruk'hai he employed to try and take down Helms Deep.
*looks around*
Oh, right. Wrong trilogy...Sorry.
Posted by Portabello (Member # 7710) on :
quote:Yoda's not ugly. He's funny looking and kind of cute
Ugly and cute are not mutually exclusive. I've heard people say "It's so ugly it's cute!"
Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
Question...Was anyone else confused with the whole robot coughing thing? I didn't get the fact that he was part organic until,well, basically until his chest was pried open to expose the heart.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Anakin was pretty hot on his way to becoming evil... that whole scene with his shirt off...
Oh, sorry. Allow me to compose myself.
It's actually quite funny that the "Real mother" debate came up here. My roommate and I had the exact same conversation in the car on the way back last night after the midnight show. She argued that Leia didn't remember her adopted mother, I argued for the continuity error. And since I've got that scene Jedi in right now, I can officially say that Luke does stress the word "real."
In today's movie discussion with my roommate, we came up with a few things; not really problems, just observations.
1. Natalie Portman was extremely miscast. The material with which she had to work didn't help matters much, but her presence as a Queen and then Senator was not strong enough - not nearly the commanding presence nor the voice for the role. And when she finally broke in Sith, it didn't seem like that much. Seeing a stronger actress' character break would have been more heart-rending, especially with the "You're breaking my heart" line.
2. Anakin killing the Younglings was disgusting, necessary, and therefore awesome.
3. Obi-Wan never got laid. And if I'd been in a galaxy far, far away a long time ago, I could have helped out with that.
4. Frankenstein had no place in Sith.
5. The execution of the Jedi by the clones was masterfully done. It went quickly enough that it felt simultaneous, but dwelled enough to get the sense of tragedy across. Also, Yoda climbing up Chewbacca was a nice touch. For all Yoda's great Force abilities, he's just a short little green guy who can't run with the Wookiees.
6. It's nice to finally know how to pronounce "Kashyyyk."
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Yeah, I was *really* bothered by that. Later, I figured, OK maybe he's a cyborg. But I've since been informed that he is *not* a cyborg, he is a free-thinking droid with organic parts.
So now I'm annoyed again.
Posted by Wowbagger the Infinitely Prolonged (Member # 7476) on :
except he's a cyborg beverly per the offical movie adapted book.
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
Just remembered my question:
With all the advanced technology at their disposal, wouldn't Padme have KNOWN she was carrying twins?
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Beverly,
The way it happens in the book, he was originally a human being who was mortally wounded, but not quite, and so was transformed. Just like Anakin, actually.
Posted by Book (Member # 5500) on :
Carrie: remember she didn't talk to a lot of people about the babies, and towards the end she and Anakin grew further and further apart, so the viewer never got the chance to learn.
I wish Greivous was as cool as he was in the Clone Wars cartoon. There he was a borderline unstoppable monster.
And if you want to know why he's wheezing and why his heart is just out there, it's because Mace Windu crushed his chestplate with the slightest glance.
Very cool.
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
I'll have to see the movie again, but I could swear that every time she mentioned her pregnancy, she spoke in the singular. Not a huge problem, just one I noticed a couple times.
Posted by Book (Member # 5500) on :
Hmm... maybe so. Lucas has never been exactly a stickler for details.
Posted by Wowbagger the Infinitely Prolonged (Member # 7476) on :
Yeah, the Greivous from the Clone Wars was awesome.
Posted by Book (Member # 5500) on :
Here he "went out like a punk," to quote Samuel L. Jackson.
I mean, the guy killed about five Jedi in one encounter. People should know how terrifying he is.
Posted by Wowbagger the Infinitely Prolonged (Member # 7476) on :
Well she had to talk in the singular. If she had said she was having twins Vader would have known Luke wasn't the only child. He would have been looking for two children instead of one. What if instead of torturing Leia he turned her to the dark side?
Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
quote:Originally posted by Book: Carrie: remember she didn't talk to a lot of people about the babies, and towards the end she and Anakin grew further and further apart, so the viewer never got the chance to learn.
I wish Greivous was as cool as he was in the Clone Wars cartoon. There he was a borderline unstoppable monster.
And if you want to know why he's wheezing and why his heart is just out there, it's because Mace Windu crushed his chestplate with the slightest glance.
Very cool.
Uhh, so I was supposed to watch the cartoon to understand something about the movie...Great. Something tells me Lucas wasn't trying to appeal to the average person with this attempt.
Posted by Wowbagger the Infinitely Prolonged (Member # 7476) on :
It's all apart of GL evil attempt to force you to buy the Clone Wars DVD. And if you want to know what happens after RotS but before A New Hope you have to watch the new show, especially since there are no books about that period.
Posted by Book (Member # 5500) on :
They actually can be seen online at this one website. I'll look for it.
You also get to see how Anakin gets that scar.
Posted by Book (Member # 5500) on :
But I'll keep looking.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Ah, then my source was incorrect.
*relieved*
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
When Vader meets Obi-Wan in A New Hope, he says "When I left you, I was the learner." But Vader didn't leave Obi-Wan, Obi-Wan left Vader to die by the lava.
A little thing, but I did notice it.
Posted by lem (Member # 6914) on :
quote: Question...Was anyone else confused with the whole robot coughing thing? I didn't get the fact that he was part organic until,well, basically until his chest was pried open to expose the heart.
That is what I thought at firs. I got so sick of a robot wheezing. When I saw his heart, I immediately thought of Vader--what a brilliant set up!
Now to my ughhs. Does anyone else think the Jedi Super Mario jump looks plain silly. I like the idea of super high jumps and eye candy, but it looks so unrealistic--and they do it so much. I think the only jump I liked was then Vader jumped over Obiwan and got his legs cut off. Those studpid jumps have bothered me from episode 1-3.
Padame and Anakin's love was horrible.
When Vader did the Frankenstien thing and yelled "NOOOOOOO!" it reminded me of Fry in Futurama--except Vader wasn't doing a parody, which is a shame because he did a better parody of that over-used-scene then any comedian/comedy.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Open question then. What would you or anyone else have Vader say after he was changed?
Since many seem to think his questioning about Padme and the "Noo!" scream were stupid. What would you have him say, and how?
Posted by Marlozhan (Member # 2422) on :
So, did Yoda get whooped by the emperor, or did he just give up because he knew his chances of success were better if he escaped and waited? And if that is the case, what was he waiting for? I don't remember, but did he know about Anakin's kid(s) yet? If not, then what was he waiting for? A breather?
I guess there's just that part of me that wants to know Yoda would have won if the fight had continued.
Of course, Yoda does have about 800 years on the emperor, and being that nimble at that age has got to count for something.
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
Silent killing spree. Well, okay, heavy breathing and dramatic John Williams music, but something a bit more destructive.
Sidenote: The music during that whole rising scene was very well-placed. Using Qui-Gon's funeral music was an excellent choice - made it much more lamentable.
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
Thanks Strider and Jay. Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: Open question then. What would you or anyone else have Vader say after he was changed?
Since many seem to think his questioning about Padme and the "Noo!" scream were stupid. What would you have him say, and how?
A simple scream of pain would have worked. No words necessary. The spontaneous crushing of everything in the room bit was interesting. I suppose Padme's death was enough to make Vader content to become an underling for...what, 2 decades?.
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
quote:Obi-Wan never got laid.
This is kinda disturbing. So in ep. 2 we're told that Jedis aren't supposed to love, right? So does that mean that it's OK for Jedis to have casual sex if they don't get emotionally involved with the person they're having sex with??? So that all those years on Tatooine, Obi-Wan could've been wandering off and having sex with the Sand People...
Posted by lightpaths (Member # 1385) on :
Anakin's dream: suspicious in nature:
The dream had a big influence on Anakin's turn to the dark side. It brought out and enhanced his fear of death--brought it into focus you might say. --A focus that would make him choose the dark side in order to "save life".
Oddly, Padme didn't die in/because of childbirth--the medics said she was in "perfect health" but said she had "lost the will to live". Basically she was so depressed about Anakin's loss of love that she died. (So Anakin's dream was not a true prediction)
If Anakin hadn't dreamt that that Padme would die in childbirth, then he probably wouldn't have been so fast to turn to the dark side. As the movie showed, his motivation to join the dark side was primarily based on his desire to "beat death" and save the life of Padme. (Who wouldn't really have died in childbirth)
So my question is: Is it possible that the dream was projected to him to make him more unstable and afraid of death in an intense way?
Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
I thought that it was implied that Sidious put some of the dreams in anikin, that's how he knew that anikin was grieving for the predicted loss of padme.
quote:When Vader meets Obi-Wan in A New Hope, he says "When I left you, I was the learner." But Vader didn't leave Obi-Wan, Obi-Wan left Vader to die by the lava.
A little thing, but I did notice it.
I think that vader meant when he joined the dark side, not walked away.
Posted by lightpaths (Member # 1385) on :
I agree. I think "walked away" is figurtive.
Posted by lightpaths (Member # 1385) on :
Anakin bought balance between good and evil and the cycles of good and evil. The dark side was at a low with only a few dark sith and Anakin brought balance by making the dark powerful--as the good side had been for a while. Balance means good and evil must have their turns of power--not that the good will always win nor the evil always win--but a balance of both, a cycle like summer and winter.
Eastern thought (Taoism) says that evil could not exist without good nor good exist without evil--they are two sides of the same "magic" and therefore must both exist and each have "power" for a time.
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
OK, a BIG nitpick... Obi-Wan and Yoda should've taken the recordings of Anakin slaughtering the kids and Palpatine admitting to being a Sith lord, and played them for the public.
(Anctipating the argument that maybe they did, and the movie just didn't show that part: if they HAD done that, then everyone in the galaxy would've known that Anakin Skywalker had become Darth Vader, and it would've never been a surprise to Luke and everyone else 20 years later.)
Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
I just watched the movie and the only flaw I saw is that Qui-Gon didn't appear in his after life form like Yoda had said he had...
Posted by lem (Member # 6914) on :
quote:Open question then. What would you or anyone else have Vader say after he was changed?
I liked how he used the force to destroy the medical equipment. Since Vader has such a thing for killing his workers in episodes 4-6, I would have had him kill the doctors, turn on the emperor, and have the emperor laugh and say, "Your journey to the dark side is complete. You belong to me now."
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
quote:Open question then. What would you or anyone else have Vader say after he was changed?
Since many seem to think his questioning about Padme and the "Noo!" scream were stupid. What would you have him say, and how?
My favorite suggestion so far is from writer Peter David. Expanded, it would have gone something like:
Sidious tells Vader that Padme is dead. The room explodes, as before. We close up on Vader's mask as he visibly struggles to accept it. Finally he hangs his head. Then he brings it up slowly, looking into the camera while the theme music plays, and says, "Good."
Posted by unicornwhisperer (Member # 294) on :
Marlozahn>
I'm still quite disturbed that Padme died.. all these years, I thought Leia knew her mother! Many many many years! Here are Luke and Leia's exact words in Return of the Jedi.
LUKE Leia... do you remember your mother? Your real mother?
LEIA Just a little bit. She died when I was very young.
LUKE What do you remember?
LEIA Just...images, really. Feelings.
LUKE Tell me.
LEIA (a little surprised at his insistence) She was very beautiful. Kind, but...sad. (looks up) Why are you asking me all this?
LUKE I have no memory of my mother. I never knew her.
He asked her REAL mother! UG! I think Lucas totally screwed up by killing their mother.
I once read about a character named "Winter" who was I guess Leia's Nanny, that would have been cool to see her. Also it would have been cool to see Han (who may have been 5 when Leia was born... *shrug) I'm not sure how they would have put him in.
I was actually REALLY disturbed that they showed Anakin had killed Jedi children... and also why did they use the word "younglings" it just doesn't work very well...
Also may I point out the Sith in which saved lifes may have been Palpatine's master and may have been Anakin's father because he knew how to "create" life. Just a thought. Posted by Portabello (Member # 7710) on :
Is there any indication that Leia knew that she was adopted? She might not have known it was her real mother.
Posted by unicornwhisperer (Member # 294) on :
Yes because she was so quick to accept Darth Vader was her father.
Posted by Wowbagger the Infinitely Prolonged (Member # 7476) on :
unicornwhisperer...I thought I was the only one who noticed that Darth Plageius could be Anakins Dad...
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:I once read about a character named "Winter" who was I guess Leia's Nanny, that would have been cool to see her.
Ummm... Winter grew up with Leia, was almost like a sister to her. They went on missions together and stuff with Winter as her aide as they got older, as Winter has perfect recall. She was Leia's kids' nanny, not Leia's.
And I was irritated that she got reduced to a nanny, anyway.
Posted by Domini (Member # 3880) on :
Re: the Jedis super-jumping all over the place...
Maybe it's a training artifact from Yoda? Full-size humans don't need to do it, but it serves Yoda well because he's so short. And it probably puts off non-Jedi fighters, who can't do it, so it stayed around as a surprise advantage. I bet Yoda learned to do it because he HAD to, trained a few Jedis to do it, and they passed it down to their apprentices and so on...
Yeah, I'm trying to rationalize things...
Posted by lem (Member # 6914) on :
quote: I'm not sure how they would have put him in.
They could of had him pick-pocketing something.
Posted by unicornwhisperer (Member # 294) on :
ketchupqueen... ah so she's Leia's kid's nanny. Sorry I got confused. She seemed like a cool character.
Wasn't their a hint that they might make another trilogy based on Leia's kids?
Posted by estavares (Member # 7170) on :
I thought it would have been a nice twist for Padme not to have died at all, but it was a ruse--building on the idea of her body doubles, perhaps a bodyguard who died to help her escape. In staging her death, she can escape to Alderaan with Leia, broken-hearted but alive, a sad sort of hope that would be consistent to what Leia says in ROTJ.
To have Padme be alive in the early stages of the Empire, knowing what her husband has become. That would have packed more emotional punch.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
quote:I was actually REALLY disturbed that they showed Anakin had killed Jedi children... and also why did they use the word "younglings" it just doesn't work very well...
I'm not sure why many people seemed to be upset by this. I mean, we know that the jedi were wiped out, and we know that they start their training as young children... It was kinda necessary. Or is it just the fact that Anakin was the one who did it? He may not have been in the suit, but he was already Darth Vader at that point. As for the term "youngling", I think it's the term used in the Star Wars galaxy for "children" of any species, whereas the term "children" may be specific to humans. Like how we don't call kittens "cat children". "Youngling" is probably just a general term for a young being. What would you call them?
quote: Also may I point out the Sith in which saved lifes may have been Palpatine's master and may have been Anakin's father because he knew how to "create" life. Just a thought.
Yeah, I don't think it was meant to be all that subtle.
The only other likely possibility I can think of is that Palpatine made it all up in order to manipulate Anakin, but for some reason, I believe him.
Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
did anyone else think that anikin's "is it possible to learn these powers?" line was the stupidest question ever?
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
No. I'm not sure what you mean. Why do you think it's stupid?
Posted by DemonGarik (Member # 7793) on :
Ok I'm goinb ack a couple posts cause work has been backed up so I haven't had much time to post... 1) I think they should have done the child birth thing first and then switched the the first time the mask it put on vader's face, and end the movie with his taking his first breath, forget all the destruction, just end with that powerful image of him being created (Lucas does admit he did the frankenstein thing specifically to give props to frankenstein)
2) There are a lot of unexplained things about Luke and Leia- Why does Vader never feel Leia is his daughter? Luke always shows some force abilities before using the force (Piloting and such) but Leia never does...
3) is it just me or is it amusing that genocide/planetside, killing all the jedi ect... was all spurred because of taxes? The entire Empire could have been avoided with a free trade agreement or a lowering of tariffs... just a thought...
Posted by lem (Member # 6914) on :
quote: I'm not sure why many people seemed to be upset by this. I mean, we know that the Jedi were wiped out, and we know that they start their training as young children..
I am bothered because Star Wars is so heavily marketed towards children--ie Burger King and Legos. I loved that the movie was dark. I am disturbed that the Lucas wants it both ways. It was appropriate for the story to have Anakin kill the kids and execute Duku. These are not themes that 6 year olds should have to deal with.
I have noticed with Star Wars and Serenity that children are becoming targets. I first noticed this in popular cinema with Sleepy Hollow. I am sure there are cult classics or non-blockbuster movies that deal with the killing of kids, but I am noticing it more in Block-Busters.
This could just be a reflection of the attention child abductions and child violence has received. It may be unrelated to current events. Whatever the reason it is making its way into movies is an interesting thing to witness.
Maybe kids need to know they are sometimes the targets, but having Darth Vader kill kids and then be sold as a cute toy in a kids meal seems wrong.
Posted by lem (Member # 6914) on :
quote:Re: the Jedi’s super-jumping all over the place...
It's not just that the Jedis are doing Super Jumps. I am actually fine with that. I just think the filming/animation of it looks so...OFF. It was poorly done. I thought the special effects were distracting and bad. Movies with lesser budgets have done a much better job of making super long jumps look cool.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
I see where you're coming from, lem, but to be fair, Lucas has been saying for weeks that this one is NOT for young kids. He's made it clear that parents should see the movie without kids first and then decide if they'll be okay with it. This may sound cold-hearted of me, but I think that if a child can handle seeing adults die, the idea of children dying shouldn't really be a problem. Death is death, and if a child is old enough to really understand it in the first place, said child should probably know that children aren't immune. Actually, I think that it's really more upsetting to parents than to the children themselves. I understand that many adults were bothered by it, but I'd be interested in hearing how children felt about it. Anyway, It is the first Star Wars film to be rated PG-13 rather than PG after all.
quote:3) is it just me or is it amusing that genocide/planetside, killing all the jedi ect... was all spurred because of taxes? The entire Empire could have been avoided with a free trade agreement or a lowering of tariffs... just a thought...
All the stuff about taxes and trade routes in TPM was orchestrated by Palpatine/Sidious. It was never really about that stuff, it was all part of his master plan which, as we see in this movie, worked very well. If it wasn't taxes and trade routes, he would have used something else to get the ball rolling.
Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
I expected more from Grievous...I think Obi killed him to soon...
I also thought that Anakin was just TOO easily seduced into the Dark Side.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
I think the reason why Anakin was seduced so easily is because he wanted to be. Fear of loss, anger, power lust, arrogence... It was all inside him waiting to get out all along. We've seen signs of it in Eps I & II. Palpatine didn't have to do much to get him to let it all out.
Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
quote:No. I'm not sure what you mean. Why do you think it's stupid?
well, darth sidious had just told him about the guy who learned how to use the powers, and had eventually taught his pupil.
quote:Sidious tells Vader that Padme is dead. The room explodes, as before. We close up on Vader's mask as he visibly struggles to accept it. Finally he hangs his head. Then he brings it up slowly, looking into the camera while the theme music plays, and says, "Good."
I like this better, simply because we were brought to imagine in the original triliogy that vador was incapable of love, and him screaming "noooo" kinda conterdicts that.
quote:Also may I point out the Sith in which saved lifes may have been Palpatine's master and may have been Anakin's father because he knew how to "create" life. Just a thought.
I thought it was possible for palpatine himself to be anikin's father, since he was taught these abilities.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:Wasn't their a hint that they might make another trilogy based on Leia's kids?
Nope, GL has pretty much said it isn't gonna happen.
Which is good, because he's screwed up enough already, IMO.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
quote:well, darth sidious had just told him about the guy who learned how to use the powers, and had eventually taught his pupil.
Palpatine told him an old legend. Even if it's true. The knowledge may have been lost, thus making it impossible to learn now. So I think what Anakin is asking is "is it still possible to learn that power"
Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
the legend he was telling him about was of his master. Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
Did Anakin know that at the time? Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
if he didn't, he's a dumbass. Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Here is a question for all of you. mechanisms and the force.
The "Dark Side" seem to prefer mechanism's, the robot army, the army of clones that are apparently attempts to turn the biological into the mechanical, and weapons like "Walkers" that are mechanical perversions of animals.
And you have the big bad guys showing their descent into darkness by becoming mechanical men such as Vader and Sedious.
The "Light Side" seems to prefer natural, with their preference for a wider array of races, riding living mounts, and the whole preservation of life bit.
So being a great pilot is actually being hip on tech, and that means dark leanings. So was Anakins first major work of accomplishment, building a mechanical man (C3PO).
Yet if we assume Nature Good, and Tech Evil, why is it that only one little robot survives the entire trilogy memory intact and apparently, a good guy? What does this say about the Tech/Nature dichotomy.
Or am I just going brain numb from lack of sleep?
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
Ha ha! I'm the first one to mention it!
Did anyone else see the Millenium Falcon? The scene right at the beginning, after they bring down the burning ship - Obi Wan and Anakin are in that shuttle that's about to land among the "politicians," and as they dock, right below them is the Milennium Falcon!
Mwa ha ha ha ha!
And I, too, was waiting for Padme to survive so Leia could remember her real mother. I thought of the possibility that maybe since she's a force baby she has some kind of precocious memory...
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
So...was that extended speech by Palpatine/Sidious about the ability of his ex-Sith master to "manipulate midichlorians and create life" not _only_ part of the "Save Padme'" bait, but as close a hint as we're going to get to the truth of Shmi's pregnancy?
Also, what was that bit about Qui Gon at the end? The closest we'll get to a "disappearing dead jedi" explanation?
Even though he didn't disappear?
*grumble*
So many plot holes and unfinished threads. No real closure.
Posted by JenniK (Member # 3939) on :
Actually, I don't see tech as a bad thing in SW, even the Jedi use it at times.
Too much tech on the other hand makes for a dark leaning.....
I don't think it is as clear sut as you make it seem. Also, the machines can't actually use the Force, so that goes against you assumptions as well.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Another thing mentioned in the books was disapproval of the Jedi using clones. Droids are one thing, expendible, but Jedi shouldn't endorse profligate waste and destruction even of droids. But with human clones, the Jedi signed on and led a bunch of well-trained blaster bolt-catchers. The clones were created for two reasons only: to fight and die for the Republic. Talk about a perversion of life!
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
It's vaguely sad that there aren't any more episodes on their way that will answer every remaining question.
I wonder if there will be an Extended Edition.
Posted by Vasslia Cora (Member # 7981) on :
quote:Originally posted by Annie: Ha ha! I'm the first one to mention it!
Did anyone else see the Millenium Falcon? The scene right at the beginning, after they bring down the burning ship - Obi Wan and Anakin are in that shuttle that's about to land among the "politicians," and as they dock, right below them is the Milennium Falcon!
Mwa ha ha ha ha!
It doesn't have to be the Millenium Falcon, it could just be a YT-1300. The Millenium Falcon was a modified YT-1300.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Yeah, sorry to break it to you, Annie, but Millenium Falcon lookalikes are like Civics in the Star Wars universe. After all, if it were distinctive, people would say everywhere they went, "Hey! It's the MF!"
Besides, at this time the ship was probably not even built Posted by JenniK (Member # 3939) on :
Or it was, but without the modifications..remember, the end of this movie was only about 18 years before the beginning of A New Hope....
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
I loved the scene when Palpatine reveals his true nature to Anakin and then to the Jedi Masters come to arrest him. Wow. How he fakes being weak and blasts Windu after saying "no! no! no!" in that scary deep Emperor voice.
And scene right before that when Anakin and Padme look out the windows toward each other... you really feel the death of a whole civilization right about to happen.
And when Yoda feels the butcher of the Jedi. The death of his whole religion/order.
And when Palatine created the Empire to "thunderous applause".
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
I have a question about order 66. The clones immediately understood what Palpatine meant when he said, "execute order 66." So if the clones knew about order 66 before the betryal, wouldn't the Jedi knights sense something is wrong from the storm troopers a long time ago?
Is the Death Star being constructed in Episode III the same one that was used in Episode IV? Did it take the Empire 18 years to build the Death Star?
Did anyone else burst out laughing when Obi Wan said "I can't watch any more of this"? Oh, am I the only one who did that? Darn.
quote:The "Dark Side" seem to prefer mechanism's, the robot army, the army of clones that are apparently attempts to turn the biological into the mechanical, and weapons like "Walkers" that are mechanical perversions of animals.
Technology isn't inherently evil. The Sith just prefer droids and clones because they are easier to control than biological sentient beings.
Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
I imagina it could have taken 18 years to complete, just look at how big it is.
the second one probably didn't take as long since they had already had the experiance of building one.
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
Maybe halliburton was building the Death Star.
I really liked the parallel between the final showdowns. Anakin and Yoda were in a bad strategic position while Palpatine and Kenobe had the higher ground. Anakin charged and Yoda retreated. My friend said Yoda punked out. I prefer to think of it as wisdom and patience triumphing over brute force.
Posted by Ginol_Enam (Member # 7070) on :
quote:Originally posted by Beren One Hand: I have a question about order 66. The clones immediately understood what Palpatine meant when he said, "execute order 66." So if the clones knew about order 66 before the betryal, wouldn't the Jedi knights sense something is wrong from the storm troopers a long time ago?
I think it was supposed to be some biological code within the clones. They didn't actually know they would be killing their generals beforehand, but after hearing the order, they switched sides...
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
The Clone Army of the Republic always had its first loyalty to the Republic-i.e. Chancellor / Emperor Palpatine, and since they had been created to be perfectly obedient, they would not view it as 'betrayl', and so it wouldn't flag as such to the Jedi sense.
Also, remember, guys, that the Death Star was the size of a small moon, except every centimeter and gram of it was built, and supplied, and staffed. Not to mention Palpatine had things to do like creating a fleet of thousands of Imperial Star Destroyers.
It takes us like five years to add an extra lane to a road Posted by Foust (Member # 3043) on :
This review needs a bit of context. I went into this movie with thoughts of Ep 1, 2, and Return of the Jedi in my mind.
I came away giving Ep 3 the benefit of the doubt in two aspects. One, Episode 2 should have been Episode 1. And this movie - Revenge of the Sith - should have been split in two. There was simply too much ground for one movie to cover. I don't believe this should be held against Episode 3 as a movie as such. Sins of the father and all that.
Second, I had watched Return of the Jedi the night before, my personal favourite of the originals. I haven't seen any of them in quite some time, and watching it now it hit me just how pulpy those movies were. I don't mean that as an attack, of course. RotJ has plenty of bizarre plot points and the Ewoks were obviously the spiritual predecessors of the Gungans. In a word, the original trilogy was not infallible, and it is unfair to compare the prequels to them as if they were. This doesn't redeem Eps 1 or 2 in any way, but it gives some leeway to Ep 3.
I think that takes care of two of the main criticisms that could be levelled at Ep 3. Too much happened, and there was an awful lot of pulpiness.
One thing the originals always had that the prequels don't, of course, is humanity. Watching RotJ, it's easy to be reminded how cool Han Solo was. There is no one truly likable in the prequels. All three are much more sterile.
Now, Ep 3 itself. Specific annoyance: A2D2. The first half hour of the movie, he was a smug little toy that could have been blown out of an airlock and the audience would have cheered. Then he went away. Enough said.
The dialogue, for the most part, was very workhorse. Very little that was clever or interesting. Same with the acting; though Hayden Christensan managed to upgrade from whiny bitch to angsty teenager. Same species, just a little less grating.
This changed in the last half hour. When Kenobie confronts the newly minted Vader and Yoda goes after Palpatine, I thought the acting and dialogue finally found their footing. Ewen McGregor in particular did a fantastic job with some genuinely sad dialogue, half mourning, half pleading. And Yoda had the best line of the movie, in response to Palpatine's "The Jedi are no more!" --- "Not if anything I have to say about it."
This was probably the best looking movie ever. The battle scenes were spectacular; I promise, these are the best fantasy-sci-fi battle scenes ever filmed. I can't imagine them being topped anytime soon.
When the climax was arriving, I was riveted. As Samuel L. Jackson's character went to confront Palpatine, I was into it. I even had a sense of dread, something the other prequels never generated.
So. Keeping in mind that this movie gets a free pass on the many silly plotpoints and the overstuffed narrative, I'm going to just say it: Episode III can stand with the original trilogy. My first instinct was to call it better than Return of the Jedi; maybe I was hasty. But it certainly is a contender. Maybe the best I can say is this: the sins of Jar Jar have been erased. That might be enough.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
quote:I think it was supposed to be some biological code within the clones. They didn't actually know they would be killing their generals beforehand, but after hearing the order, they switched sides...
That's what I figured as well. These guys are manufactured clones. Palpatine probably secretly had the order programmed into their subconscious as they came of the production line. It's like in spy movies and the like where there are people with something programmed in their head that they don't even know about, and all it takes is some trigger word to set it off. So I don't think that the clones themselves had any idea that they were going to betray the jedi until Palpatine triggered them.
Either that, or maybe they were briefed on order 66, but were just told that it was a contingency plan for if some jedi turned dark and needed to be taken down. They wouldn't have to know that it was a plot to wipe out all the jedi because they may not have known that it was happening everywhere. It'd just be one of many orders that they may have to implement if they were ordered to. Just like how I'm sure they'd go on suicide missions without a thought if ordered to. So again, it wouldn't be like they were waiting for the order all along. In any case, Yoda at least sensed the change in their mind set immediately. But then, he's Yoda.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Yoda was also happily surrounded by more Wookies than Clones, and in fact there were a handful of Clones near him at all.
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
The dissapearing Force being (merging with the Force) underscores the source of Lucas' inspiration for the Jedi, characters like Yoda and the whole Jedi religion are based on the Shamanistic teachings of Don Yaun Matus, through his apprentice Carlos Casteneda. These books also underlie the success and faliure of The Wheel of Time books and happen to have sparked the psycidelic craze in the 60's.
A Seperate Reality, Tales of Power, Journey to Ixtlan, and so on. If your read them you will be very surprised how much Jedi is derivitive of Don Juan.
BC
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
The entire Star Wars storyline, as created by Lucas, was influenced by so many other epic, mythic stories humans tell each other that naturally if you examine another, you will reach the conclusion that SW derives from that.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Okay, just saw the movie.
So close, and yet so far!
Natalie Portman was abysmal. Of course, the writing didn't help. Some lines I had the most problems with:
"Now it's time to JUMP SHIP!" No, really? 'Cause when I get in an escape pod, I'm usually there to take a bubble bath. And he thinks it's so funny. Idiot.
"...my little green friend!" Oh, my, did we just jump back in time to The Muppet Movie? "It's not easy being green..." (I know, that's not in The Muppet Movie. Bite me.) Seriously, it was said with such hate, I cracked up. Oooooh! He called you LITTLE and GREEN! Kick his BUTT!
The whole thing with Anakin, Mace, and Palpatine. P: "Anakin! Heeelp me!" M: "Don't listen to him, Anakin!" P: "He's... too powerful. I'm... so weak!" P: "He's evil, Anakin! Help me!" M: "HE'S the evil one! Help ME!" P: "Too... weak... can't... talk in... complete sentences..." A: "You can't kill him! He has to face a trial!" M: "He's freakin' evil! They're all under his control! This mutha's gotta DIE!" P: "Help meeee!" A: *cuts off Mace's arm w/ lightsaber* P: "Muahahahaha! I will kill you now!" A: "What? I so didn't see this coming!" P: "Die, Jedi scum!" M: *flies out of window* A: "You are so awesomely powerful. I will serve you now, even though I'm about to cry." P: "Good, my young... APPRENTICE!" Audience: "Aaaaaah! It's the TRUMP!"
[ May 22, 2005, 12:19 AM: Message edited by: ketchupqueen ]
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Oh, and don't get me started on the medical issues. What, they have this advanced civilization and no pain control for women having emergency surgery? Also, um, "She's lost the will to live, so we're going to let her die now, and surgically remove her babies without consulting her, even though she's obviously able to talk." What the freak? Sheesh... Not to mention, she never looked like she was more than 5 or 6 months along with one baby, much less twins. Posted by Alucard... (Member # 4924) on :
Don't forget that they stopped doing ultrasounds to check for twins in the first place...
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Actually, as it was a secret pregnancy (notice how no one mentioned she was pregnant until Obi-Wan did? With the exception of Palpy, of course), I could buy that-- if she had absolutely no pre-natal care.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
Well, I would think that they did consult her. I don't recall anything indicating that they didn't. And she didn't seem to be in THAT much pain, so they probably did do something for that as well. And Alucard, some people want to be surprised about such things and therefore don't get ultrasounds.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
neo, if their medicine is so advanced they don't do c-sections any more, you would think they could eliminate the pain completely. She really did seem to hurt when they were pulling around down in there.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Oh, and then there was the thing about she wouldn't be allowed to continue working as a senator when the baby was born. What the heck? Why on earth not? I did not get that at all.
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
Because Jedi are not supposed to marry and procreate for some reason ("Attachment leads to the Dark Side!" or some such) so it probably would have caused a huge scandal she'd rather avoid.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
I wonder if it was actually Palpatine that caused the birth of Anakin. At the opera/concert thing he told the tale of the original Dark Lord and his being able to influence the Force particles to create life. Anakin's mother was supposedly impregnated by these same Force particles... I wonder...
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
quote:So I don't think that the clones themselves had any idea that they were going to betray the jedi until Palpatine triggered them.
That makes sense. You guys are probably right about the biological codes. I wonder if the cartoons gave any detail explanations of order 66.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
Actually, I was kinda taken aback by the not working as a senator anymore as well... Maybe that's just how society works on Naboo. Women are expected to stay home with the kids. Who are we to judge their culture?
It wasn't just because it was Anakin baby, because the next thing she said after that was something like, "...and if they find out that you're the father you'll be kicked out of the jedi order." So it made it sound like the part before was the consequence of having a baby at all, and that part was the consequence of it being Anakin's baby.
quote:That makes sense. You guys are probably right about the biological codes. I wonder if the cartoons gave any detail explanations of order 66.
They didn't, which made it all the more surprising.
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
quote:Originally posted by Telperion the Silver: I wonder if it was actually Palpatine that caused the birth of Anakin. At the opera/concert thing he told the tale of the original Dark Lord and his being able to influence the Force particles to create life. Anakin's mother was supposedly impregnated by these same Force particles... I wonder...
I posed as such earlier! In addition to being "Save Padme" bait, it fill in a LOT of questions Episode One left unanswered...and is probably the ONLY explanation we'll ever get for Anakin's "Midichlorian Virgin Birth".
Posted by Agnes Bean (Member # 7614) on :
quote:Episode III can stand with the original trilogy. My first instinct was to call it better than Return of the Jedi; maybe I was hasty.
Agreed. My first thought coming out of the theater was "damn. The second half of that was the best thing in the whole series!" I don't know if that's really true, but I do think Episode III is in the same league as IV, V and VI.
Re: the not working as a senator anymore thing. I was taken aback by this too. My guess is that it was because she was having babies out of wedlock or when she (apparently) was not in a realtionship. Or something.
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
One of my friends who saw it with me suggested it was even better than Empire.
I believe it can stand alongside IV and VI, but Empire has one HUGE thing that III does not - chemistry between the romantic leads. I buy Han and Leia's banter much more than the "You're so beautiful" crap given in III.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I loved it. Not even going to nitpick it, just appreciate the overall effect.
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
quote: Responding to the point about Obi-wan not knowing about Leia, we don't actually see/hear a reaction from Obi-wan when Yoda says "there is another", so how do you know he was surprised? Maybe he said that Luke was their only hope because he figured that there wouldn't be time to train Leia, and Yoda simply thought otherwise
It has always been pretty obvious to me that Yoda was merely reminding Obi Wan that Leia might have jedi powers. There is no guarantee that she would. After all, jedi don't have children, so it's not automatic that there children would have the force. I don't think GL was thinking that deeply into it at the time, though.
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
There's also the question of why Vader didn't recognize Leia as his daughter. He recognized Luke's last name, but even if Leia had a "force signature" that he could feel her presence with, he still wouldn't have known that she was his daughter. As far as he was concerned, she was the daughter of Senator Organa
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
Anyone else kinda wish that a live action, slightly altered version of the "Clone Wars" cartoon had been Episodes I and II?
Just watched both volumes online. They totally blew away the actual first two prequel films.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
The Clone Wars cartoons are a lot of fun to watch, but they don't tell much of a story. They're 90% action. That's all well and good for what they are, but I don't see how that kind of format could have worked for the first 2 episodes in the saga. Would fans really have been more satisfied with 2 movies of jedi and clonetroopers blowing stuff up?
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
I guess you didn't see the "slightly altered" part of my post. Though Volume II of the cartoons was pretty darn heavy on story, especially concerning "Anakin's Final Jedi Trial".
Posted by Mr.Gumby (Member # 6303) on :
On a nonstoryline note, was it just me or did it take a few seconds for Palpy to stab the first jedi that tried to arrest him? I mean, come on! You're a jedi that can hit lightning fast lasers with an inch-and-a-half blade. Why can't you block a lightsaber stab that comes at you at about 15 miles an hour?
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
quote:I guess you didn't see the "slightly altered" part of my post. Though Volume II of the cartoons was pretty darn heavy on story, especially concerning "Anakin's Final Jedi Trial".
I saw it, but since you didn't specify slightly altered in what why, how should I know what you had in mind. Besides, adding in a story is more than a slight alteration. That's the real trick, isn't it? I've heard others say that the prequels should have been more like the Clone Wars cartoons, but it just seems to be another way of saying that there should be more jedi and clone action. But would that have fixed the dialogue and acting problems which most people like to pick on? Don't get me wrong though. I like the cartoons too. But whereas they focus on the war, it was more important for the movies to focus on Anakin, Obi-wan, Padme, and even politics.
Posted by Avatar300 (Member # 5108) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dan_raven: Here is a question for all of you. mechanisms and the force.
The "Dark Side" seem to prefer mechanism's, the robot army, the army of clones that are apparently attempts to turn the biological into the mechanical, and weapons like "Walkers" that are mechanical perversions of animals.
And you have the big bad guys showing their descent into darkness by becoming mechanical men such as Vader and Sedious.
The "Light Side" seems to prefer natural, with their preference for a wider array of races, riding living mounts, and the whole preservation of life bit.
So being a great pilot is actually being hip on tech, and that means dark leanings. So was Anakins first major work of accomplishment, building a mechanical man (C3PO).
Yet if we assume Nature Good, and Tech Evil, why is it that only one little robot survives the entire trilogy memory intact and apparently, a good guy? What does this say about the Tech/Nature dichotomy.
Or am I just going brain numb from lack of sleep?
But...Luke spent all his time on Tatooine flying around on a speeder, he was the best pilot in the rebel alliance, AND he had that mechanical hand. And of course, the lightsaber is hardly a natural weapon.
Also, when the war was over Palpatine had Anakin shut down the droid army, the Empire does not use droids as mainline troops in the original trilogy, and most of the soldiers we can see don't appear to be clones.
You could argue that Lucas hadn't thought all that stuff up yet, but going just by what is in the movies it seems that the Empire uses the same amount of droid technology as the Republic did.
quote:quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sidious tells Vader that Padme is dead. The room explodes, as before. We close up on Vader's mask as he visibly struggles to accept it. Finally he hangs his head. Then he brings it up slowly, looking into the camera while the theme music plays, and says, "Good." --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I like this better, simply because we were brought to imagine in the original triliogy that vador was incapable of love, and him screaming "noooo" kinda conterdicts that.
I guess I never got that impression about Vader. He seems pretty insistent on reuniting with his son in Empire Strikes Back, and sacrafices his life and the man he had sworn loyalty to in Return of the Jedi to save that son. That seems like love to me.
Inside all that technology, Vader was still a man.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sidious tells Vader that Padme is dead. The room explodes, as before. We close up on Vader's mask as he visibly struggles to accept it. Finally he hangs his head. Then he brings it up slowly, looking into the camera while the theme music plays, and says, "Good." --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I like this better, simply because we were brought to imagine in the original triliogy that vador was incapable of love, and him screaming "noooo" kinda conterdicts that.
I think that's a horrible idea. Why would he be happy about Padme's death? He was being hit with a lot of emotional stimuli all at once and when he finall had time to sort it out, he hadn't remembered what he'd done. So when he finds out he kills her, why would that be satisfying?
He obviously isn't incapable of love if he killed the Emperor to save Luke. I like the "nooo" regardless of how sill everyone thinks it sounds. It shows remorse, and in a way his initiation to the dark side. He's killed the one he loves, he has nothing really left to LIVE for, might as well die slowly in the dark side and serve Palpatine, who at that point he probably considers his last friend.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
When he offered to rule the galaxy side by side with Padme, it added a new depth of meaning to that offer made to Luke in ESB, for me.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
If you ask me Padme was blind and stupid from the beginning. How can she REALLY be surprised by everything that happened when she knew he slaughtered an entire village.
I mean, seriously, is that not a warning sign of some sort?
Posted by Tarrsk (Member # 332) on :
quote:I think that's a horrible idea. Why would he be happy about Padme's death? He was being hit with a lot of emotional stimuli all at once and when he finall had time to sort it out, he hadn't remembered what he'd done. So when he finds out he kills her, why would that be satisfying?
He obviously isn't incapable of love if he killed the Emperor to save Luke. I like the "nooo" regardless of how sill everyone thinks it sounds. It shows remorse, and in a way his initiation to the dark side. He's killed the one he loves, he has nothing really left to LIVE for, might as well die slowly in the dark side and serve Palpatine, who at that point he probably considers his last friend.
It shows remorse in the silliest way imaginable. That scene was designed to be emotionally wrenching; instead, I was stifling a laugh. That impassive mask bellowing "NOOOOOOOO" in James Earl Jones' inimitable bass was one of the funniest things I've ever seen, which is a damn shame, considering the greatness of the sequence immediately prior to it.
The best "alternate version" of this scene I've seen suggested came in a thread on another board I frequent:
It starts out the same: Vader is told that he killed Padme, he breaks out of the table while the whole room starts going to shit...but then instead of "NOOOOO!" he just drops down to his knees, head down and fists clenched...the destruction in the room continues and increases in intensity, so that even Sidious is taken aback a little bit. Then things quiet down, and Vader slowly rises to his full height and says, "What is your bidding, my master?" It is evident that with the death of Padme, he has fully abandoned his old life and has nothing left to live for besides service to the Emperor. He is transformed in that moment into the cold, calculating Darth Vader that we meet in ANH.
(Originally posted by Cuckoorex at the Straight Dope)
Now THAT would've sent chills down my back. You get that horrible remorse... and then the transformation to Vader, servant of evil, is complete.
Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
quote: quote:I think that's a horrible idea. Why would he be happy about Padme's death? He was being hit with a lot of emotional stimuli all at once and when he finall had time to sort it out, he hadn't remembered what he'd done. So when he finds out he kills her, why would that be satisfying? He obviously isn't incapable of love if he killed the Emperor to save Luke. I like the "nooo" regardless of how sill everyone thinks it sounds. It shows remorse, and in a way his initiation to the dark side. He's killed the one he loves, he has nothing really left to LIVE for, might as well die slowly in the dark side and serve Palpatine, who at that point he probably considers his last friend.
************************************************
The best "alternate version" of this scene I've seen suggested came in a thread on another board I frequent: It starts out the same: Vader is told that he killed Padme, he breaks out of the table while the whole room starts going to shit...but then instead of "NOOOOO!" he just drops down to his knees, head down and fists clenched...the destruction in the room continues and increases in intensity, so that even Sidious is taken aback a little bit. Then things quiet down, and Vader slowly rises to his full height and says, "What is your bidding, my master?" It is evident that with the death of Padme, he has fully abandoned his old life and has nothing left to live for besides service to the Emperor. He is transformed in that moment into the cold, calculating Darth Vader that we meet in ANH.
(Originally posted by Cuckoorex at the Straight Dope)
I like this, I also like the version where he responds "good".
My take on the whole him serving Palpatine after "learning" of Padme's death at his hands is by that point he's reached the ultimate in hate: he hates himself. At that point he's pretty much doomed to the dark side and has absolutely nothing left. That would probably be why Palpatine told him that lie.
Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
Don't forget, it was anikin who loved Padma, not darth vader. Just as anikin would not slaughter tons of children, yet darth vader would.
Posted by Avatar300 (Member # 5108) on :
But Anakin did slaughter a village full of sandpeople. Is that different?
Posted by gnixing (Member # 768) on :
quote:Originally posted by Avatar300: a village full of sandpeople.
Women AND children... There was a precedence for Anakin to do this. [edit: Slaughter the younglings.]
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
Screaming "NOOOO!" is a bit corny, but I don't think it's nearly as bad as others seem to. I do prefer the suggestion of Vader saying "good" though. It's the perfect way to show that Anakin is really gone. Anakin loved Padme more than anything. Saying "good" would give the audience a nice little shock and make us think, "wow... This guy has snapped. He (thinks) he killed his pregnant wife and he doesn't even care! Now THAT'S evil." But on the other hand, I don't think that that's what Lucas was going for. I think at the end of RotS he was trying to set-up Anakin's redemption. His first words as Vader were asking about Padme and then expressing grief (albeit it, in a corny fashion). This is not the scary Vader we see in ANH and ESB. We're being reminded that it really is Anakin in there. The same one who we've seen throughout TPM and AotC. Even Padme's last words foreshadow his redemption. So I think the idea was for us to be reminded of Anakin's humanity rather than his evil.
Posted by whiskysunrise (Member # 6819) on :
Just before Padme died she tells Obi Wan that there was still good in Anakin. So the "Nooooo" was not a bad thing.
Posted by estavares (Member # 7170) on :
I'm sorry, but the "nooooo" made me laugh out loud. The idea that Vader simply asks, "Padme?" And the Emperor says "She is dead." And then Vader uses the Force to willfully destroy the room, crush droids, destroy the table and equipment that created him...all to the delight and amazement of his mentor....THAT would have been enough. Vader will, of course, blame Obi-Wan (not himself), fueling his hatred.
That's the biggest reason why the prequels have little to no emotional resonance. Lucas tells instead of shows. For whatever reason that he forgot after writing Episode IV, he can't seem to remember that the audience will GET it and invest their imaginations into the movie. Look at these posts––everybody's reading into everything anyway.
Vader's first duel with Luke is the best overall interchange between them; and the dialogue is minimal. We GET the conflict.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Also, when the war was over Palpatine had Anakin shut down the droid army, the Empire does not use droids as mainline troops in the original trilogy
One reason I'm thinking that the Emperor moves away from droids is that people can be controlled by the Force, but droids can be controlled by any hacker. It gives him a hige advantage coordinating the troops and ensuring loyalty.
Plus, I love the idea Zahn had in "The Last Command" that clones would be ideal for control by a dark jedi, because once you reprogram one of their brains, you can reprogram all their brains.
[ May 22, 2005, 06:01 PM: Message edited by: Dagonee ]
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
quote: On a nonstoryline note, was it just me or did it take a few seconds for Palpy to stab the first jedi that tried to arrest him? I mean, come on! You're a jedi that can hit lightning fast lasers with an inch-and-a-half blade. Why can't you block a lightsaber stab that comes at you at about 15 miles an hour?
Because Palpatine was using the Force to aide him in battle too...make him faster, disrupt the Jedi's powers, and slow them down.
Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
quote:Vader will, of course, blame Obi-Wan (not himself), fueling his hatred.
I actually like how Lucas had Palpatine tell Vader that he killed Padme, cause now he hates himself. How much more hateful can you get than hating yourself AND everyone else?
Posted by T_Smith (Member # 3734) on :
Ok, I just want to write down Sidious's amazing plan to gain control.
In the beginning, he was a sith apprentice to a great master who could use the dark side to control life by rearranging the midichlorians. Like his master, he desired power and control. His master was not the kind to give it up, and make him a master himself, but he still trained him. Sidious killed his master, for control and power.
In Episode I he is manipulating a trade federation into blockading and attacking Naboo, causing turmoil in the senate.
The key in Episode One was Amidala and Anakin. After the trade federation moved in on Naboo, she flee's with the Jedi to tatooine, and eventually to Correscaunt where under Palpatines influence, she called for a vote of 'No Confidence' to kick the current Chancellor out. With the sympathy due to the Naboo situation, he easily gains Chancellor status.
My guess is that he did in fact create Anakin, and that Palpatine knew Viceroy would fail. Anakin caused the victory over Viceroy, causing him to slink away.
Palpatine then starts the next step of his plan. The secret creation of the clone army. The clone army is why I suggest that Palpatine knew Viceroy would fail, and if he knew that, he must have known of Skywalkers involvement.
In the meantime, he gains a new apprentice, Darth Tyrannus, or Count Dooku. He gets him to go around gaining support of the Trade Federation, convincing them that the republic was not in the best financial interests of any sort of trade. One by one the republic systems seperate from the republic.
Years past, and the Seperatists begin to show themselves. Sidious then plans two false attempts on Padme's life, causing Anakin to get closer to her. It then sends Obi-Wan into a hunt for those responsible, which leads him to Geonosis, and discovering a large droid army under the seperatists.
Sidious then tells the senate that in light of the droid army and seperatists forces, and the attack on Padme's life, he is implimenting higher executive powers on himself, and enforcing the clone army under the Jedi Knights to help defeat the droids.
At the same time, he befriends Anakin, and encourages his pride. He places him closer to Padme, causing an influx of emotions, and attachments, and in return, a fear. Being away from the Jedi Council, and Obi-Wan, Anakin is then free to go to Tatooine to kill the Sandpeople. I believe this too was seen and planned by Sidious.
So now at the end of Episode II we have a guilt ridden Anakin, who now has a strong fear of loss due to death. We have a Supreme Chancellor and a Clone Army completely loyal to Palpatine in place. We have seperatists forces in full swing against the Republic. So why doesn't Palpatine attack the Jedi now? Because, the Jedi need to try to kill him, and obviously, Tyrannus can not stand up to Yoda or Windu.
So then Palpatine manipulates General Grievous by capturing himself, and having Anakin kill Dooku, getting more of a taste of the dark side and more guilt.
With the power of Supreme Chancellor, he appoints Anakin a member of the Jedi Council. With the Jedi Coucil distrusting of Palpatine, they don't grant Anakin the rank of master.
Now this is where the Jedi screw things up.
They ask Anakin to spy on Sidious. Bad move number one. Anakin is then closer to Palpatine who obviously knows what the Jedi are up to and how he feels. He tells Anakin that Grevious has been found, and tells him that he wants him to go and get him. Anakin tells the Jedi that Palp wants him to go. The Council, thinking that that's what he wants, instead denies Anakin this, and sends Obi-Wan, the only one who could really keep Anakin under control and handle him against Sidious's influence.
He then strategically reveals himself to Anakin. He tells him that the Sith and the Jedi are no different. Anakin then tells Windu.
Windu and Sidious face off. I strongly believe Sidious could have beat him, but acted like he was being defeated as soon as Anakin was nearby.
So then, being inticed by stopping death, he tries to convince Windu to spare him and make him stand trial. When Windu pushed to kill him, Anakin then thinks "you don't kill a defenseless person, it's not the Jedi way" and slips, and cuts his hand off, giving Palpatine the advantage to kill him.
Anakin then knowing he can no longer be a Jedi, pledges himself to the one man who constantly boosted his pride, and was his "friend", Palpatine.
Palpatine, using the attack by Windu, convinces the senate that the Jedi are to be extinguished. He tells Anakin that all the Jedi would eventually go against the republic, and that he should go to the temple and kill them. As an added bonus, Sidious tells him that it will increase his dark side, which would allow him to prevent the death of Padme.
He then tells Anakin to go to Mustafar, and while Anakin is away, he conveniently tells the Senate that instead of a democracy, it is going to be an Empire, for safety reasons of course.
Brilliant.
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
I have lots of comments, but it's really late. Just one I needed to share.
It felt painfully obvious walking out of the movie that George Lucas has absolutely no familiarity with the female half of the species, whatsoever. Relationships between middle-schoolers have more depth and chemistry.
I mean "I love you" "No, I love you more"? I was waiting for Padme to ask him if he'd every marry anyone else if she died. Or if it'd been some other princess he'd rescued, if he'd have fallen in love with her.
Padme's character was weak from the get go, and the dialogue written for her was just painful. And how many other female characters have there been in the ENTIRE series? You can count the ones with speaking parts on one hand - two at most.
That said, he should have gotten some help with the script, like he got from Lawrence Kasdan on ESB and Raiders of the Lost Ark.
While I enjoyed the story, the dialogue just made parts of it excruciating to watch.
Posted by BryanP (Member # 7772) on :
It helped that Spielberg directed Raiders and he would never have made a film with dialogue as horrible as the Star Wars prequels. Plus, he has some skill with directing actors.
Posted by CRash (Member # 7754) on :
On the whole "Nooooooo!" scream at which people are laughing, I'd like to point out that this was clearly homage to Empire, where Luke screams "Nooooo!" after he learns Vader's his daddy.
Lucas was just, in the way his mind clicks, reusing a method that worked for him before. It's what he likes to do with his movies, reuse and reuse. You know, every new SW movie must have 1) A new villain 2) A chase scene 3) A lightsaber duel... etc.
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
I wonder if the remnants of the Separatists teamed up with the Republic rebels when Palpy took over.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
He must have had the Clone Army in place long before he started getting the ball rolling with the Trade Federation at Naboo. I wouldn't think they could have grown the army so large so fast.
At the very least, he must have had the ball rolling. I don't understand how he paid for it all though.
Back to the "noo!" thing. I like the idea of him falling to his knees and crushing everything in the room. I still think that the "good" line is way out of character. Everyone would have walked away even more confused about his character. Clearly he does have some good left in him, evidenced by his actions with Luke and what Padme had to say about him. And there is no clear Vader/Anakin line, because he killed all the Sand People at that village.
For him to say "good" is to erase even the last shred of credibility (if there ever was one) that him and Padme were a real couple in love. It would make everything he did over the course of the movie stupid and pointless if their love was really that fragile.
For the sake of the argument though, the only reason I see the "good" line working, is based off of one line Anakin had, when he said that he couldn't live without her. For him to be happy that she is dead means that he too is dead. But then you get into some sort of split personality Anakin/Vader thing that I don't think makes any sense. His entire fall to the dark side takes place as a result of his arrogance and his love for Padme. Why negate that entire fall by having him say something so out of character?
Edit to add: By changing something like that, you aren't just trying to clean up some of Lucas' sloppier silly writing, you are changing the storyline and the character.
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
Here's a random question: Who is (okay, was) Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas? Was that Dooku's Jedi name? This just hit me and I'm not really sure why...
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
My guess would have been that he was Palpatine's master.
Other than that, I don't think they ever covered him.
Posted by Book (Member # 5500) on :
Yeah... it gets very, very hard to analyze what Palpatine intended and what was just coincidence. I didn't get any of the "Palpatine created Anakin" vibe from the movies. Where are we getting that from? I just assumed it was a very blatant (and somewhat heavy handed) Christ reference.
And I think it would've been better if Vader had just fallen to his knees and screamed wildly. You can never underestimate a good scream.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: Anakin caused the victory over Viceroy, causing him to slink away.
A nitpick: I'm pretty sure the Viceroy's name is Nute Gunray. Viceroy is just his title. Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:One reason I'm thinking that the Emperor moves away from droids is that people can be controlled by the Force, but droids can be controlled by any hacker. It gives him a hige advantage coordinating the troops and ensuring loyalty.
There's that, and the fact that they're simply better soldiers than droids are. In the Star Wars Universe, AI isn't better than biological sentience, yet.
quote:I actually like how Lucas had Palpatine tell Vader that he killed Padme, cause now he hates himself. How much more hateful can you get than hating yourself AND everyone else?
I agree. After Padme died, Darth Vader had essentially nothing he intended to get by turning to the Dark Side. Sure, he got 'peace and stability' in the galaxy, but those were far from primary concerns to him. And yet he kept himself shackled to the Emperor for what, nearly twenty years? I think at some point he would certainly have taken that first redeeming step, or else murdered Palpatine outright, long before then, if he wasn't kept down by carefully-cultivated self-hatred.
quote:In the beginning, he was a sith apprentice to a great master who could use the dark side to control life by rearranging the midichlorians. Like his master, he desired power and control. His master was not the kind to give it up, and make him a master himself, but he still trained him. Sidious killed his master, for control and power.
This is presumed, and certainly Palpatine permits Anakin to have this impression of history...but we aren't really sure, either.
quote:My guess is that he did in fact create Anakin, and that Palpatine knew Viceroy would fail. Anakin caused the victory over Viceroy, causing him to slink away.
I disagree, because how could Palpatine have controlled where the fleeing Naboo vessel would have gone? And to which junk dealer they would turn? Etc., etc., it's just too much random chance and tiny sabotages and manipulation. I think it more likely that Palpatine was just extremely fortunate in that he decided to make his move at the same time Anakin Skywalker was steaming.
quote:Palpatine then starts the next step of his plan. The secret creation of the clone army. The clone army is why I suggest that Palpatine knew Viceroy would fail, and if he knew that, he must have known of Skywalkers involvement.
He created the Grand Army of the Republic because he knew he wasn't going to stick with the Seperatists from the very beginning. He created them to destroy the enemy he created-the enemy he intended to have blamed for most of the troubles in the galaxy.
quote:At the same time, he befriends Anakin, and encourages his pride. He places him closer to Padme, causing an influx of emotions, and attachments, and in return, a fear. Being away from the Jedi Council, and Obi-Wan, Anakin is then free to go to Tatooine to kill the Sandpeople. I believe this too was seen and planned by Sidious.
Personally, I believe all Palpatine did was implant the seeds of hatred, fury, and revenge in Anakin that permitted him to take this drastic step. After all, in Ep. III, he says things like, "It's only natural. He cut off your hand, you wanted revenge." Imagine how often and in how many ways he's been saying such things to Anakin over the years they've been talking.
quote:Windu and Sidious face off. I strongly believe Sidious could have beat him, but acted like he was being defeated as soon as Anakin was nearby.
You're exactly right about this. First of all, he could've Force-pulled his lightsaber from the fall. Second, there were three other lightsabers close at hand. Third, no Dark Lord of the Sith ever required a lightsaber to fight effectively.
-----------
You're right, Lyr, that he had the Clone Army brewing long before. This is why I believe he never intended them (the Seperatists) to succeed at all.
quote:At the very least, he must have had the ball rolling. I don't understand how he paid for it all though.
Well, assuming there wasn't very carefully-managed embezzlement and graft during his time as a Senator and Chancellor...the Sith have been around for a long, long time, remember. And for a thousand years or so, there have never been more than two of them at a time. That sort of descendance makes it remarkably easy to pass on the wealth, I'd imagine.
Posted by Taalcon (Member # 839) on :
quote:Here's a random question: Who is (okay, was) Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas? Was that Dooku's Jedi name? This just hit me and I'm not really sure why...
No... I got the impression that Sifo-Dyas was another Jedi that Palaptine had used as a tool, and then killed off after he accomplished his purposes. (We know that Sifo-Dyas was killed ten years before AOTC - which was right about the time that TPM took place).
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
That's one of the bigger plot holes, actually; how did Palpatine arrange to delete the Jedi archives? Who was Master Sifo-Dyas, and why is the name so similar to Darth Sidious? The implication here is that Palpatine himself posed as -- or was originally -- a Jedi, but that's not part of his own autobiography.
------
And I figured, honestly, that Anakin Skywalker was just a happy coincidence for Palpatine. None of his plans rely on Anakin, and he could just as easily have found some other dark apprentice, had he wanted; all his apprentices function as fall guys and meat shields, anyway. It was just a lucky break -- which he exploited -- that Anakin proved useful and amenable to persuasion.
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
The idea comes from the speech Palpatine gives where he talks about his Sith teacher, who knew how to maniuplate midichlorians and "create life".
In TPM, we're told that Anakin seems to have been "conceived by Midichlorians! The Chosen One!"...discovered by Jedi who _only_ encountered him because they were being manipulated by Lord Sidious' shadow play.
Ian McDarmid himself said in an interview in "Entertainment Weekly" that in his mind that speech he gave was a hint as to the truth behind Shmi's "miraculous" pregancy.
If one accepts the Emperor's claim that he can see likely futures, he probably had been working for some very long term goals...thus the connection some are seeing.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
Palpatine has a thing for getting new apprentices to kill his old ones. He offered the job to Luke if he killed Vader, after all.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: In TPM, we're told that Anakin seems to have been "conceived by Midichlorians! The Chosen One!"...discovered by Jedi who _only_ encountered him because they were being manipulated by Lord Sidious' shadow play.
But what kind of bizarre shadow play would involve his knowing that their ship would be damaged in such a way that it would have to land on Tatooine and require a part that only one junk dealer on the entire planet might happen to have?
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Magic.
For Anakin's turn to the dark side, separating him from Obi-Wan long enough was important, I think. It seemed that Obi-Wan was the only one who could talk sense into that kid, and even him, just barely.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"It seemed that Obi-Wan was the only one who could talk sense into that kid, and even him, just barely."
Which is odd, because Obi-Wan as presented in the films is clumsy, incompetent, stodgy, patronizing, and basically unfriendly. I wouldn't particularly want him as a master, either, even if I weren't whining about being the most powerful Jedi in the universe.
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: [QUOTE]But what kind of bizarre shadow play would involve his knowing that their ship would be damaged in such a way that it would have to land on Tatooine and require a part that only one junk dealer on the entire planet might happen to have?
One in which the guy has the power to see possible futures? That's what the Emperor's claimed in the films, anyway.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"One in which the guy has the power to see possible futures?"
But the Emperor clearly couldn't foresee this particular future, as he was upset and unhappy with Padme's escape. He turned it to his advantage later, but the interference of Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon did surprise and irritate him; I don't get the impression that he intended for Darth Maul to die, nor for Naboo to successfully repel the Federation's attack.
I prefer to think of Palpatine, like Lucas, as a master of exploiting the happy accident. Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
quote:I wonder if the remnants of the Separatists teamed up with the Republic rebels when Palpy took over.
Apparently there was a plot point that had to be cut out of Revenge of the Sith in which Padme organizes the Rebel Alliance before she dies, but Lucas had to cut it for time.
I also think Palpatine had a lot to do in orchestrating events surrounding Anakin. For instance, I'm pretty positive that he had Anakin's mother kidnapped by the Sand People specifically to plant the seeds of the dark side in him.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
As a matter of fact, Tom, Count Dooku was a Jedi of great repute. I think it's most likely that he was the one who altered the Jedi Archives.
The Emperor is a master manipulator, but that doesn't mean he's manipulating every little thing to his own ends. For instance, I hardly think he manipulated the Seperatist cruiser's crash-landing onto Coruscant, or the successful Rebel destruction of the first Death Star, etc. etc.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
Lots of interesting points and observations. Here are some things I wanted to clarify/comment on:
quote:I wanted an explanation on why Yoda was stuck on Degaba.
Yoda was stuck on Dagobah because the dark side cave masked his presence, which kept Palpatine and Vader from sensing him. The dark and the light cancelled each other out. This is discussed in one of the novels following RoJ. If he had gone somewhere else, he'd have been exterminated like all the rest.
quote:Is the Death Star being constructed in Episode III the same one that was used in Episode IV? Did it take the Empire 18 years to build the Death Star?
That's exactly what I asked immediately upon exiting the movie. If it is the same one (and it only makes sense that it is) then how is it possible to construct one in 18 years, then the second in a year or two? No manufacturing process improves that much. Even to cut the time in half would be an accomplishment of ridiculous proportions.
I agree with everyone that the dialogue was uncomfortable, at best. But I loved it. A lot of loose strings were tied up, though some were missed. In the beginning, when Obi Wan jumped out of his ship while it was still sliding across floor and started whooping *&$ was freakin sweet.
I thought Padme and Anakin seemed more in love in Ep. II than in this one.
Padme was older than Anakin by like 5 to 8 years or so, and yet she looks younger than him? Miscasting (and I love Natalie Portman - I'd have her baby).
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Well, I'm not sure if this is part of the EU that Lucas threw out the window or not (it was in one of the Timothy Zahn SW books), but it's told there that the cave wasn't particularly Dark until a Dark Jedi crashed there after going on a horrible rampage, and Yoda dispatched him there (this Jedi was not in the employ of the Emperor, who exterimated all of them he found except for Anakin).
Yoda is sufficiently powerful, I expect, that so long as he is trying to hide in the Force, he can evade the Emperor's protection, particularly on a planet so unremarkable, remote, and absolutely teeming with life as Dagobah. As for Tatooine, it is a planet rife with Jedi 'signature', from Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, Darth Maul, Anakin, Anakin-as-murderer, and other Jedi that came from there.
And as for the Death Star I, bear in mind that in ANH, it was fully complete, staffed, completely operational, etc., and it was the very first time such a thing was built. The Death Star II, however, when we see it is only skeletal, with an understaffed construction crew, it's specifically stated it's not finshed yet, and the only thing that works on it is the main laser.
Posted by Taalcon (Member # 839) on :
quote:Count Dooku was a Jedi of great repute. I think it's most likely that he was the one who altered the Jedi Archives.
He was the one who trained Qui-Gon, and was a Padawan under Yoda, but I think he was out of the Order far too long to have done that.
I think that the unseen-and-killed-off Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas, seeing as he's the one who actually WENT to Kamino, is the one who tweaked the archives.
Posted by Taalcon (Member # 839) on :
Also, I believe DSII falls into the "Why build 1 when you can build 2 for twice as much?" theory of construction.
Perhaps they didn't start building DSII until a few years into the first DS project, hence the few years of lag between the completions?
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
It's possible, Taalcon. Then again, just because he wasn't 'active' doesn't mean they wouldn't let him into the Temple to do research and whatnot. Bear in mind that Count Dooku was very well respected and revered by the Jedi...up until he signed on openly with the Seperatists.
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
I loved it. There were truly great moments. Especially the way they hinted at Anakins atrocities. Much more effective. And Palpatines manipulations were brilliant.
Palpatine seemed to be both a manipulator and exploiter of weakness and existing conditions.
In many ways, the Sith were partly right about the Jedi. They were so ossified in their way of thinking. In fact, I would lay the entire failure of the Jedi order at the feet of Mace and Yoda. Mace, being the more myopic of the two. His refusal to accept Dooku's possible evil until standing on Geonosis was boneheaded. His comments about Anakin in III, especially not trusting him AFTER Anakin had ultimately done the right thing by telling them Palpatine was a Sith was supremely stupid. "If you're right, then I'll trust you." Geez, what does this guy have to do. Yeah, he's got problems, but Mace never once reached out to him. And when Anakin finally sides with the Jedi against someone that, to his mind, has always believed in him and sided with him, should have clinched it. Instead, Mace spits it back in his face.
The inability for any of the Jedi to conceive of someone altering the records is ridiculous. And Yoda, the 800 year old leader of the Jedi was the soul of the Jedi. The same Jedi who refused to let Qui Gon on the council- the same Qui Gon who turned out to be right about everything (except that the Jedi botched what he had with Anakin).
Thankfully, Yoda was not afraid to learn from Qui Gon. And Obi Wan, while appearing to follow the old Jedi ways, must have, at least unconciously, been using the new Jedi ways his lifelong master had taught him. Which would explain how, in the end, he defeated Anakin.
I would have like to see more defeat in Yoda and the end. He was too upbeat. I would have like to see him still be a leader, but one questioning his own decisions, since, in many ways, the failure of the Jedi and their myopic ivory tower syndrome was his own. A little more humility rather than "New teachings I have for you." An acknowledgment or something from the Master.
The Death of Padme bothers me. I truly hope that the scene about Padme starting the rebellion is left in the extended edition (if it was filmed. If not, GL would do well to get on the ball and film it, since this could be where he repairs this glaring contradiction. Most others can be explained away or glossed over. But not this.) Of course, it's possible that Padme did not die, the death was staged and she lived out the rest of her short sad life on Alderaan. Even if she was with Leia for only a month, it would be better than someone trying to claim Leia remembered her birth (and why her and not Luke?).
What did Palpatine mean when he said that only one Sith had ever learned how to defeat death? Was he referring to himself? How old is Palpatine? I definitely believe his was Darth Pelagus's apprentice and that he was the one who created Anakin.
Which makes for an interesting theme. A father kills his father to save his son (though DV had no idea.) Sounds like a archtypal theme GL might have been going for.
Posted by beatnix19 (Member # 5836) on :
quote: What did Palpatine mean when he said that only one Sith had ever learned how to defeat death? Was he referring to himself?
Actually he never said it was a sith that had learned to defeat death. The line went something like, "There has only been one who has learned to defeat death but together we can unlock that secret" The second time I saw the movie I immedaitely though of Qui-gon. He learned how to return in the force after death and this is what Yoda asked Obi-Wan to learn while in excile.
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
how would Palpatine know about Qui Gon?
Posted by beatnix19 (Member # 5836) on :
Think about everything else he seemingly knew about what the Jedi were doing. I don't think it is too much to extent this to him knowing about Qui Gon as well. I fact I like the thought because it just ads to how much Palpatine just strung anakin along to get his way. He knew he didn't have the knowledge to save a life but he knew it was possible and so he used his skill for telling half truths to feed anakin what he needed to hear to allow his emotions to control him and guide him to the dark side.
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
Palpatine doesn't know about Qui Gon. Sounded to me like Palpatine's former master figured out how to save others from death, but not himself. Qui Gon actually figured out the whole after life thing which of course you can't get on the dark side.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:Perhaps they didn't start building DSII until a few years into the first DS project, hence the few years of lag between the completions?
But why build a second when they aren't sure how the first works? Plus, the death star had a hyperdrive, and they thought it was impregnable, so what need did they have of a second? I think it's just a continuity error, not something that can be easily explained.
Posted by beatnix19 (Member # 5836) on :
I don't know. The way Palpy said the line was more along the "cheat death" than "save a life". I'm refering to the scene immediately after Anakin pledges himslef to Palpatine, after Windu dies. That is why I felt like he could have been refering to Qui-Gon.
This, of course, is one of the greta things about film. Often times they are open to numerous translations and just as often no one translation is ever verified as correct. It really isn't worth arguing about but it is the idea that poped into my head and probably the one that will stay unless GL himself says otherwise. I just thought I'd share the thought with others and if it seems interesting in the Star Wars world as you see it then cool, otherwise go with what fits into your notion of the uiniverse and that is cool too.
Posted by beatnix19 (Member # 5836) on :
"they thought it was impregnable, so what need did they have of a second?"
Because they were some evil SOB's and if blowing up one planet at a time will inflict fear and obediance think what haveing two will do.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
Come on folks, at WORST its an unexplained part of the continuity. Not even close to being an "error".
So it took 18 years to build the first death star and 2 years for the second one. Are we so unimaginitive that we cannot reason this out without it being spelled out for us?
The first death star was being built right after a galactic war. Perhaps resources were being spent elsewhere?
It was also being built with the resources of barely half the republic's worlds. The rest of them had broken away, and were just beginning to rejoin the republic.
The first death star was built under the republic, which had a still-powerful senate. Remember that Palpatine disolved the senate after the first death star was built. It would have been much easier to build the second death star without any red tape.
They had already built the first one. Of course its easier when you have the knowledge of the first experience.
The facilities/equipment to make something of the death star's scale would have had to have been built from scratch during the building process. Those facilities could easily have been still around when they went to make the next one.
And on and on and on and on...
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"I think it's just a continuity error, not something that can be easily explained."
I believe the technical term is "bloody stupid bit of pandering."
Posted by Architraz Warden (Member # 4285) on :
Maybe the one in ANH was actually the second Death Star. The one at the end of RotS was the first, but accidentally exploded after a space pigeon flew down the barrel during a targeting control test.
Feyd Baron, DoC
Posted by beatnix19 (Member # 5836) on :
I ageree that there has to be a lot of "overlooking" when watching these films. So what, accept it and enjoy it and move on. Or don't except it, annalyze it to death and lose most of the enjoyment of the films.
Maybe someone can explian this to me. One of the whole continuity prolems I had and then immediately dismissed was how quickly Palpatine arrived at the "lake of burning hell fire" planet. He's on Courosaunt, says "uh, oh. Anakins in trouble. get my ship ready." Anakin loses his legs and arm then turns into a marshmallow left ovwer the fire too long. Obi-Wan leaves with Padme and the droids. Palpatine arrives, gets the medicval cart and saves him. It all seemed to happen a bit too quickly. At least quicker than I would expect. I know the ships move fast and all but... do they really move fast enough to save a persons life who had been extremly amputated and burned all up?
But like I said. My brain regisered all these thought and then dismissed them because it isn't important enough to worry about in the middle of an awesome sequence like all that was.
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
Might have been easier to build the 2nd time around
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
Of course it would be easier the second time around. You could probably build it in 10 years, instead of 20, because of all the reasons stated by Xavier and others.
Does anyone else feel like they're in Clerks?
Posted by lem (Member # 6914) on :
quote: One of the whole continuity prolems I had and then immediately dismissed was how quickly Palpatine arrived at the "lake of burning hell fire" planet. He's on Courosaunt, says "uh, oh. Anakins in trouble. get my ship ready."
He was on 24 time. Didn't you see the black blazer in the background?
Posted by beatnix19 (Member # 5836) on :
Oh, well then that would also explain why their has never been a single example of computer crashing.
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
quote: One of the whole continuity prolems I had and then immediately dismissed was how quickly Palpatine arrived at the "lake of burning hell fire" planet. He's on Courosaunt, says "uh, oh. Anakins in trouble. get my ship ready." Anakin loses his legs and arm then turns into a marshmallow left ovwer the fire too long. Obi-Wan leaves with Padme and the droids. Palpatine arrives, gets the medicval cart and saves him. It all seemed to happen a bit too quickly. At least quicker than I would expect. I know the ships move fast and all but... do they really move fast enough to save a persons life who had been extremly amputated and burned all up?
You forget that they were showing us the Yoda/Palpatine fight at the same time as the Anakin/Obi-Wan fight. Since Obi-Wan had to fly to the lava planet in the first place, those fights weren't actually happening at the same time.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Beatnix, what do you think happened to the jedi archives?
Posted by beatnix19 (Member # 5836) on :
Archives you say? I assumed it was either Doku or Sifa-dias, although I have always been confused to who sifa-dias was. there really are few other options. It was either the guy who ordered the army built (sifa-Dias) and wanted to cover his tracks or it was the guy that was in league with palpatine (Dooku) but still wasn't openly Dark sided. If you remember in Episode II when Obi-Wan confronts Jenga Fett, Jenga claims to have only been contacted by a man named Tyrannis about being cloned. So that kind of has me leaning towards the idea that it was probably Dooku who did the erasing since Dooku and Tyrannis are the same person. If he was the guy that recruited Jenga Fett, then he probably was the guy who would want to cobver it all up and if I recall correctly wasn't the army ordered 10 years befor AotC? If so, then Count Dooku was still considered a good guy and would have had free roam of the archieves and a reason to cover his trail.
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
I wonder why the Sith refers to themselves as the Dark Side. I think it would be more interesting if they referred to themselves as something more positive, like the "pro force" or "anti dogma" branch of the Jeidi order.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
I was referring to not showing computer crashes. Posted by Ryan Hart (Member # 5513) on :
The Death Star shown may be the prototype Death Star referenced in the books.
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
quote: Windu and Sidious face off. I strongly believe Sidious could have beat him, but acted like he was being defeated as soon as Anakin was nearby.You're exactly right about this. First of all, he could've Force-pulled his lightsaber from the fall. Second, there were three other lightsabers close at hand. Third, no Dark Lord of the Sith ever required a lightsaber to fight effectively.
I disagree. First off, the change in Sideous' face indicates that he is seriously taxing his ability. Sideous might be allowing himself to lose, in order to get Anakin on his side, but even then, he's playing it way closer than I would expect of someone that selfish.
Second: From what I understand (apparently it's discussed in the novelization) Windu can make use of the dark side without going over. He allows himself to be angry when he fights. Supposedly the purple light saber is an indication of this.
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
Labyrinth of Evil, by James Luceno (written with GL's approval and access to the scripts as well as interviews with GL and part of a trilogy that includes Ep III and a book just afterward) sort of explains the Syfodias mystery (though I have to reread it).
Syfodias was a real Jedi. He may have been killed by Dooku. His ordering of the clones was due to a force-induced vision. The fact is, however, I can't remember whose perspective some of this was from. If it was Obi-Wan, then it's suspect. If it's Dooku or Sidious, then not. I don't really like it. Makes more sense if Dooku killed the Jedi Master Syfodias and impersonated him on Kamino, after he became Sidious' apprentice. I'll reread it. But Syfodias was real.
Incidently, this site has some really good essays on the prequels. Chris linked to this page last week, I think.
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
If I recall correctly, Palpatine specifically states that the only one who could use the midichlorians to create life was a Sith Lord. That's why Anakin must use the dark side to save Padme.
He also says that that Sith Lord was murdered by his apprentice (the implication being that Palpatine was the apprentice) while the lord was asleep. He also says that despite being able to control life, he was unable to save his own life. That's not the same effect that Qwi Gon acheived. Qwi Gon doesn't have the ability to control life, but he learns to cheat death, which is almost, but not quite, the opposite of what Palpatine is talking about.
Also, it seems to me that Palpatine goes through apprentices because he doesn't want any of them to become powerful enough to destroy him. He sets them up, so who knows how many he may have had?
Edit: Question mark.
[ May 23, 2005, 04:47 PM: Message edited by: Glenn Arnold ]
Posted by beatnix19 (Member # 5836) on :
quote: I was referring to not showing computer crashes.
uh... ya. I know you were. I was just, um... well. Ya.
*smacking self for being blind to smart alec remark to my own smart alec remark*
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
Ryan makes a good point. In the extended universe, the Empire made a prototype Death Star first, to be sure that all the bits and pieces worked. It was simply a scaffold framework with a bridge, really (and kept, incidentally, at the Maw Installation - an Imperial think tank).
BUT, even if that is not the case, no one ever said that the Death Star took 18 years to build. All we know is that 18 years later, it IS built. It could have taken five years to build, or eight, or something. The only thing is, with an active Senate opposing the Emperor, the USE of such a weapon might not have been feasible.
It could have been simply a space station during the time of the Senate (as it was probably drawn up in committee... sans "planet destroying weapon") and was only free to be used after the Senate was dissolved. Remember the line about how the Emperor would keep control, and the answer was "fear of this battlestation". He may have been holding it in check until he dissolved the Senate, so he could unveil it and maintain control.
On top of this, the second death star was hardly finished, and seemed to be only about a third of the way finished. If it took 2+ years to get to that point, the entire project could have taken 6-10 the first go round.
Then again, it may just be another symptom of Lucas' lack of concern for minor details. Such as Obi-wan referring to Palpatine as "The Emperor" in the Temple when Palpatine was in the Senate announcing the change to a Galactic Empire. Or R2 having heretofore unknown thrusteres that he seems to use all the time - except when falling off a ship on Dagobah, or off a skiff on Tatooine, or...
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
Does any of the novels discuss R2's background? Is he special in any way or is he simply a lucky little droid?
Posted by CRash (Member # 7754) on :
On the subject of Sifo Dyas: One of Count Dooku's first missions was to order a clone army as Sifo Dyas, who was on his way to Kamino. Sifo Dyas was discovered by the Jedi when he moved to Allistare.
Count Dooku had Billigo (a Jedi master of disguise and possibly a changeling) pretend to be Sifo Dyas and order an army cloned from the bounty hunter, Jango Fett.
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
What EU book is that from?
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:He cut off your hand, you wanted revenge." Imagine how often and in how many ways he's been saying such things to Anakin over the years they've been talking.
That's a very good point. They needed to show a few more scenes with Palpatine justifying such actions to Anakin in II and III. Problem is, they'd have had to be written very well not to clunk on the screen.
Posted by Lord Solar Macharius (Member # 7775) on :
Having just returned from the movie, I can say it was good - much better than I and II - but not great. There were too many moments where I thought to myself, "I could do better".
My main dislike of the movie was the terrible handling of Greivous (sp?). Anyone who watched the Clone Wars cartoon will know how cool he was (as a villain I'd rate him near to or above Vader). In Episode III, all we got of his distinctive style was his flip into the wheely thing. In the Clone Wars, you got a sense that he was able to defeat Jedi masters without the force. In the movie, you got the vibe that he stole all his light sabres from sleeping younglings.
Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
We just went and saw it tonight. I liked it much better than Episodes I and II, and I have to admit it was cool to find out how Vader got to be Vader. However, (and I'm probably more sensitive to this because I'm pregnant) I thought the "birth" scene was horrible. First of all, Padme looked like she was constipated, not giving birth. Secondly, the babies appeared not to have/need umbilical cords. Bad birth scenes always tick me off.
Other than that I don't have a lot of complaints. There were a few obviously-plot-driven choices that happened (such as the man who adopts one of the babies at the end) being sent away instead of killed, etc., that I would have liked a bit more thought put into.
space opera
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Your main complaint is seriously the birthing scene?
I thought the OBGYNDroids were a little silly, but other than that, how do you really judge a birthing scene? Suppose they drugged her up? Epideral and all that jazz.
Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
So sorry. Next time I'll check with you before posting about something that ticked *me* off. Even with an epidural you have to push. If Padme could push 2 babies out while lying completely prone on her back then more power to her. I want her as my doula.
space opera
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
quote:My main dislike of the movie was the terrible handling of Greivous (sp?). Anyone who watched the Clone Wars cartoon will know how cool he was (as a villain I'd rate him near to or above Vader). In Episode III, all we got of his distinctive style was his flip into the wheely thing. In the Clone Wars, you got a sense that he was able to defeat Jedi masters without the force. In the movie, you got the vibe that he stole all his light sabres from sleeping younglings.
If you ask me, it was the Clone Wars cartoon that dropped the ball with Grievous. People don't seem to realize that that cartoon seriously exaggerates character's abilities. For heaven's sake, one episode had Mace Windu take out an entire droid army all by himself. He literally destroyed about half of them with his bare hands! If the character was really supposed to be that powerful, he would have cleared the arena on Geonosis in Eps. II all by himself! The cartoon made Grievous look WAY more powerful than he is supposed to be, and now many fans blame the movie for making him seem lame in comparison.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
You are forgiven Space Opera
Honestly other than seeing the OBGYN Droids with their strange instruments that really didn't lool like they helped the birthing process along, I missed a lot of that scene because my brother sitting next to me was laughing so much at it.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:There were a few obviously-plot-driven choices that happened (such as the man who adopts one of the babies at the end) being sent away instead of killed, etc., that I would have liked a bit more thought put into.
That "man" was Bail Organa, and has a long history in the, well, history of SW. I actually would have liked to have seen a lot more of him.
A point: they were supposed to be "taking" the babies to save them, so I guess that's the equivalent of a c-section? It would explain why she wasn't pushing, at least.
One thing that I was reminded of when watching that scene: GL's kids are adopted. I am not bashing adoption. I think it's wonderful. So no one get on me for that, please; this comment has nothing to do with my stance on or view of adoption (that it's a wonderful practice and should be encouraged in many cases.)
But GL, who is making this movie, really should have at least watched "A Baby Story" or something to get a feel for what a human birth and the process that surrounds it is like. I think he didn't do his homework very well on that, and it shows. Because he had no personal experience, he assumed things about it that someone who has been through it (either as a participant or even just being there) or who had done good research would not, in my opinion, have assumed.
Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
quote:So sorry. Next time I'll check with you before posting about something that ticked *me* off. [Razz] Even with an epidural you have to push. If Padme could push 2 babies out while lying completely prone on her back then more power to her. I want her as my doula. [Big Grin]
space opera
I actually, I don't think she was pushing at all. Iirc, they had to surgically remove the babies, becuase she was on the way out and didn't have the strength for natural birth...
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Beat you, Alcon. Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
I saw it last night, and was, on the whole, satisfied.
OSC's comments about this being an epic story that works, even when the details of plot and dialogue don't, are spot on.
Posted by Portabello (Member # 7710) on :
Concerning the percieved political commentary in Ep III, check out the latest Dork Tower. Posted by His Savageness (Member # 7428) on :
quote: Or R2 having heretofore unknown thrusters that he seems to use all the time - except when falling off a ship on Dagobah, or off a skiff on Tatooine, or...
Originally that bothered me as well, along with the little hand that R2 uses to grab the com device from Anakin in Episode III. Neither of these accessories appear in the later movies.
But then I got to thinking. R2 is an astromech droid aboard the Rebel Blockade Runner, a ship that sees a lot of action before episode IV. Furthermore, the Rebel Alliance is spending all its money building X-Wings and what not. In my mind R2 saw a lot of wear and tear over the next 19 odd years; his thrusters malfunctioned and some of his more limber appendages rusted out. No one repaired these units because he's just a little astromech droid and they've got bigger fish to fry.
Posted by Lord Solar Macharius (Member # 7775) on :
Neo-dragon, I wasn't expecting him to flip out and destroy all kinds of Jedi - I know the cartoon overdoes it for fun. I was expecting him to invert; I was expecting him to be cool. He was not. Much sadness.
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
Still, R2 totally took out two droids in that hanger bay, blew a buzz droid off Anakin's ship with a laser, and went ballistic in Grievous' chamber to create a distraction...
...then got punked by a jawa who he had sensors to detect.
Then again, there's the light saber prowess decline of Vader and Obi-Wan, too. Maybe in 19 years, the Galaxy just lost its skillz.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Actually, R2 isn't one of the difficult-to-explain aspects. An astromech droid packed to the gills with weapons, rocket-boosters, etc.?
Rebels would've jacked that stuff offa R2 in a heartbeat.
Posted by Lupus (Member # 6516) on :
quote:Originally posted by FlyingCow: Still, R2 totally took out two droids in that hanger bay, blew a buzz droid off Anakin's ship with a laser, and went ballistic in Grievous' chamber to create a distraction...
...then got punked by a jawa who he had sensors to detect.
Then again, there's the light saber prowess decline of Vader and Obi-Wan, too. Maybe in 19 years, the Galaxy just lost its skillz.
Though, R2D2 tried to shock the droid when Obiwan and Skywalker were in that force field, he just got kicked over.
As for Vader and ObiWan, we never saw Vader fight after he got put in the suit...his injuries might have impaired him. Also, neither of them would have had to use their lightsabers in 20 years...so they were likely out of practice.
Posted by Wowbagger the Infinitely Prolonged (Member # 7476) on :
Except Vader has to use his lightsaber if he's going to hunt down the last remaining Jedi.
Posted by Lupus (Member # 6516) on :
Though we don't know if they kept hunting after #3 was over. For the most part, they seemed to be wiped out at the end of #3...and we know they couldn't have searched to hard since ObiWan was never found, and neither was Yoda.
Posted by Ginol_Enam (Member # 7070) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lupus: Though we don't know if they kept hunting after #3 was over. For the most part, they seemed to be wiped out at the end of #3...and we know they couldn't have searched to hard since ObiWan was never found, and neither was Yoda.
Was anyone else kind of disappointed that the whole Jedi purge was executed nearly instantaneously by Clone Troopers? I was always imagined it was Darth Vader himself who went all around the galaxy killing Jedi... It kind of raised his coolness factor by just a bit....
Posted by Wowbagger the Infinitely Prolonged (Member # 7476) on :
Well, not all of the Jedi are dead. I believe the Star Wars live action TV show will be about the last survivors as Darth Vader hunts then down to destroy them. For instance did anyone notice that Shaak ti was not in the movie?
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
Somebody told me the (authorized) novelization has Anakin kill Shaak Ti in the temple (with force lightning, no less). Might have been Kit Fisto, though (or was he killed by Palpatine?)
Posted by His Savageness (Member # 7428) on :
Even though it doesn't say so in the movie I got the impression that many Jedi got the new message sent out by Obi Wan and Yoda instructing them NOT to return to the temple and many of them spread across the galaxy. I imagine that much of Darth Vader's next 18-19 years is spent hunting them down. Although why he didn't spend that time hunting for Obi Wan, the Jedi who crippled him so badly, is anybody's guess.
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
Well I got to see it at last, with a strong blue tint, blown speakers and a distortion line, but hey I got to see it!
I was kept out for an hour afterwards explaining and making it coherent for my friends, since I read the novel. I was glad to see it though and I did not find the acting to be all that bad, Obi seems more effete then you would expect, almost 3PO level at times. The crisis in Anikin is downplayed but you have to realize that any reaction at all is a huge reaction in a Jedi.
Padme is just so hot! What can I say, I just like watching her lips move.
It seemed to me that the slices were a little thin, but all and all it was good. The novel is indespensible though!
BC
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
I finally saw it tonight! and I have to say that I really loved it. I wasn't expecting to, but I cared about the characters, I cried at the scene when Obi Wan leaves Anakin there and I loved the first scene with he and Padme...*sigh* It was MUCH better than I thought it would be.
His Savageness, I disagree with you on the Jedi scattering thing. I got the impression at the end of Episode II that there were very few Jedi left and it seemed to me that the Palpatine managed to have all of them picked off. But, if you're right, the reason he didn't get Obi Wan was because Obi Wan withdrew from everything...and they were busy building the Death Star.
Speaking of the Death Star, my friend brought up a good point: We see the Death Star at the end of Episode III and we get the impression that it's just been completed at the beginning of Episode IV. So it took about 20 years to complete it. So how in the heck did they get it 'fully armed and operational' in less than 5 years after it was destroyed? Had technology advanced that much? Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
Who said that they were building them one at a time, perhaps they staggered construction but started out building several.
BC
Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
Also, building the first one could have given them the experiance to build the same thing faster.
Posted by Foust (Member # 3043) on :
quote:Somebody told me the (authorized) novelization has Anakin kill Shaak Ti in the temple (with force lightning, no less). Might have been Kit Fisto, though (or was he killed by Palpatine?)
No, it's Shaak Ti Anakin kills. I was really annoyed this didn't happen on screen; since Ti's performance in the last few episoes of Clone Wars, I was expecting a spectacular death. But we got nothing.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I still think what we are seeing at the end of III is the prototype built in the Maw Installation. Either way, it would have probably taken much longer to build the first than the second, and the second wasn't completed in Episode VI, remember that too.
Posted by Lord Solar Macharius (Member # 7775) on :
Shaak Ti was a pretty main character in the last couple (longer) episodes of Clone Wars, and as that is getting a next season, Lucas may have removed her death scene last minute.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Plus, we don't even know if the giant laser works or is merely a theory at this point. I can imagine them getting the framework built, the interior finished, the hyperdrives added, and taking 15 years to get the laser working right.
Posted by Yozhik (Member # 89) on :
quote: We see the Death Star at the end of Episode III and we get the impression that it's just been completed at the beginning of Episode IV. So it took about 20 years to complete it.
Here's a possibility: an undetermined amount of time passes between Darth Vader's putting on the mask and the scene with the Emperor and Vader observing the Death Star. After all, when Vader first "wakes up" after surgery, he isn't able to walk very well (he's all stiff-legged), whereas in the Death Star scene, he's moving naturally. Some time (years?) probably passed in between, in which he got his brain adjusted to his new body.
Posted by Treason (Member # 7587) on :
What do you think of this theory: Palpy's mentor could create life with the midichlorians (sp) right? But to me, you can't create life out of nothing at all. I think he needed the basics first, which means an egg and sperm. Makes sense to me that Palpy is Anakin's father by blood, his seed being used by his master to mix with Anakin's mother's egg. It may not be true but I love it.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:So how in the heck did they get it 'fully armed and operational' in less than 5 years after it was destroyed? Had technology advanced that much?
Maybe it was easier to get the funding and manpower for such a project after disbanding the Senate.
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
Wasn't Vader standing in the death star when he announced the Emperor had disbanded the Senate?
I'm in the camp with the people who think the second death star was being built already during episode IV. One death star just isn't enough to ensure the complete domination of a whole galaxy. It's just that they're so danged expensive.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
That's certainly a possibility.
But it almost certainly took more time to build the second one than the first. They hadn't enslaved anyone by the time the frame on the first one was completed. The second was built entirely with slave labor at Despayre.
I'm sure it took perhaps twice as long or more to build what there was of the second one over the first.
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
If that's the case, than they would have had to have one in reserve, because there isn't that much time between the initial obliteration and Return of the Jedi.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
I just finished reading the novelization yesterday. It's very good. It offers a lot more insight into what every character was thinking, and even answers some questions which weren't addressed in the film.
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
I refuse to acknowledge the Maw installation as having any validity in the SW universe. It would legitimize that hack Kevin Anderson.
I like the idea that the building of the second Death Star was staggered with the first. Or that after all the support factories were built, it was easier and quicker to get the second up to snuff. Especially with an Emperor looming over your shoulder to have the primary weapon operational.
I recently started rereading Labyrinth of Evil (as part of a minor trilogy that included ROTS and then a book afterwards- all with GL's approval and with (at least for the first two of the books) access to the scripts), and on the mystery of Syfo-Dias, Yoda basically says this.
Syfo-Dias died about 13 years before ROTS (which would put it just after EpI).
According to the Kaminoans, Syfo-Dias placed the order and Tyrannus provided the clone template.
Syfo-Dias was killed BEFORE the template was provided (answering Obi-Wan's speculation that Syfo-Dias used an alias-Tyrannus- to provide Jedi deniability.
The money trail is impossible to follow.
Yoda's conclusion is that Syfo-Dias may have had a premonition that the republic would need the army. He argues that if they had not stumbled on the army, Dooku would have been able to attack with a monster droid army and they would have had no defense. So it was fortuitous, from their perspective. The only thing they don't know is why Jango had been working for Dooku. Perhaps he had been coopted and introduced to give Dooku some control over the clones.
But we know that Tyrannus WAS Dooku (and Jango had been working for him from the beginning). And that Palpatine DID NOT WANT the separatists to win. He wanted his paper tiger to keep him in power and give him more and more emergency powers.
So it stands to reason that Syfo-Dias was killed by Dooku and then inpersonated for the Kaminoans, all to provide the Republic an army. Then little clues had been left around to point to Kamino. If it hadn't been the dart, it would have been something else. I mean, the record itself was not fully erased. In the archives, gravity's silhoute(sp?) remained, pulling the surrounding planets and starts, even though the source was erased. That seems sloppy. How much you want to bet that if it hadn't been those clues, something else would have happened to let the Republic know they had an army all ready to counter Dooku's?
Posted by His Savageness (Member # 7428) on :
I like that explanation, because it seems to jive well with the whole "order 66." It seems to me that the clone troopers' complete lack of hesitation in executing the order hints at some sort of subconscience conditioning. If Sidious and Dooku were responsible for the clone troopers almost from the beginning, it would explain why the clones were so read to pull off the order when it arrived.
Posted by Wowbagger the Infinitely Prolonged (Member # 7476) on :
In the book it explains that the clones were trained since birth to execute the order. All they waited for was the person they were trained since birth to follow to give the order: Palpatine.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I agree, and I feel that it was implied that they were invloved from the very beginning.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
They were of course involved at the ground floor, so to speak-Palpatine much more than Dooku, of course, who was always a short-term pawn. I don't think the clones were created with that order in them, though, because Jedi could probably have sensed a latent 'murder me' order.
I think they were trained from birth (and before) to follow perfectly every single order given them by the appropriate person, especially Palpatine.
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
I don't think the Jedi would have sensed anything. Yes, they knew what this order was. But I get the impression it did not bother them. They were obedient machines. They do what they're told. Consider Commander Cody's abrupt jump. First, he in a friendly brother in arms manner give Obi-Wan his fallen lightsaber with a joke. The next minute he receives his order and boom! No moral qualm, no hesitation, no crisis of conscience.
Of course, it's possible it was ingrained in them from the Kaminoans. But not necessary. Their being perfect human clones with no questiong makes that superfluous.
Posted by Darth Ender (Member # 7694) on :
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
Actually, order 66 is one of the things that the novel sheds some light on. It wasn't really subconscious. I think if you had asked a clone what order 66 was beforehand they would have known (not that they would tell you, of course. And they may not have even known that they would ever have to execute the order). But they were perfect soldiers. As we saw in the movie, Obi-wan and Cody were friends who has worked together many times, but clones are like machines when it comes to orders. There was no hesitation or remorse. In fact, according to the novel, Cody's only regret was that he had just given Obi-wan his lightsaber back just before he got the order to kill him.
As for why the jedi don't sense it, we know that the dark side has muddled their force perception somewhat, and the novels says that it's also because being the perfect soldiers they are, the clones had absolutely no feelings of ill-will, or harmful intent prior to the order being given. They were such blank slates that even jedi couldn't sense that they were hiding something. It was just another order to them. So what IanO said above is pretty much exactly right.
Posted by 0range7Penguin (Member # 7337) on :
Wasn't the Maw installation put into one of the Rogue Squadron games by Lucas Works which would infact legitamize it.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
Well, games are as much expanded universe material as books, so that doesn't really elevate the Maw to a new level of canon. But as far as EU continuity goes, lots of stuff from KJA are important parts of the saga. Things like Luke's Jedi academy on Yavin IV and characters like Kyp Durron came from KJA. So if you ignore his stuff, you pretty much have to ignore everything which comes after.
Posted by 0range7Penguin (Member # 7337) on :
Good point.
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
I think that explanation makes perfect sense, neo-dragon.
I recently was rewatching the prequels. Man the Jedi were so utterly frozen in their mindset, so locked in their ivory tower with their heads in the sand.
Examples:
EpI-
Mace: I do not think the Sith could return without us knowing. (right )
The general irritation at Qui Gon and specifically his desire to train Anakin. Obi-Wan expressed this well in his constant criticism of Qui Gon. After all, Anakin's future was "uncertain." He could have gone either way. But they botched it.
Refusing to let Qui Gon on the council. As it turns out, he was right in his beliefs regarding the Living Force, allowing it to guide him, rather than simply using it as a tool to maintain the status quo and a corrupt government and their own power.
Yoda: Agree with your training Anakin, I do not!
EpII-
Padme (regarding the attempted assination): I think Dooku is behind it. Mace's response: Dooku was a Jedi. It's not it his character.
Jocasta Nu: If it does not exist in the records it does not exist.
Yoda had to get the children to figure out the mystery of missing Kamino. Even then, Obi Wan had trouble wrapping his head around that, though he was the most progressive of Jedis.
When Obi-Wan brought his concerns about Anakin's suitability to guard Padme to Yoda and Mace, Mace brushed him off. Yoda criticized Obi-Wan's own "arrogance" in questions his 'exalted' opinion. "Arrogance, a trait even older Jedi are showing, questioning the council."
EpIII-
Mace: I don't trust Anakin.
Even when Anakin betrays someone that, too him, has only ever been a friend a mentor, to do the right thing, Mace only says, "If your right, you've earned my trust." Excuse me? Earned? What does this kid have to do?
Yoda writes Anakin off like that. No attempt is made to reach him.
Yoda gives up. There was still more fight in him and the Emperor. But he just runs away into exile. ---
Honestly, I believe that Anakin was the Chosen One and if Qui Gon had lived, Anakin would have lived up to that potential, showing how to both use the force and be used by it, to be in the Living Force. Their cutting themselves off from the universe lost them the ability to see and to be guided by the force.
The Jedi as a whole (not-withstanding Obi-Wan's best attempts to reach him) botched it and made Anakin more vulnerable to teachings that were based in "Passion," i.e. the Sith.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I think you're pretty much spot on, IanO, and that it's absolutely deliberate on Lucas's part.
I do get the impression that both Yoda and Obi-Wan learn this lesson during exile, and I think that explains why neither one thought they could take a direct hand in the battle. I mean, it's pretty much a given that Yoda could take out Vader early on, right? Set an ambush when he's separated from the Emperor and take him out, then collect Obi-Wan and take on Palpatine. But they wait 18 years, allowing whole planets to be wiped out. I think they realized that even using their power that way wouldn't remove the Dark Side from play and might end up serving its purpose.
And in the other thread, when I said "unifying force," "living force" is what I was thining of.
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
I do believe the term "Unifying Force" is used, at the very least in Labyrinth of Evil. I just read it last night and noticed it. I think that as Obi-Wan got older, he began to see the wisdom of Qui Gon's outlook more clearly.
I just always laughed at the criticims of EpII in regard to lost Kamino. "How can they not think the archives were tampered with? GL messed up." I think the point was exactly how myopic the Jedi were. It's not like we haven't seen the same in our own history before.
edit to add:
I think both Obi-Wan and Yoda learned quite a bit from Qui Gon over the intervening 19 years. Enough that Yoda's teachings to Luke are remarkably similary to what Qui-Gon always said. Listen to the force, let it be your ally, be attuned to it and let it guide you as much as you use it.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
That's the name of the final New Jedi Order book. "Living force" is definitely what I was trying to remember.
Also, remember the Jedi seriously considered siezing control of the Senate if Palpatine didn't relinquish his powers - before they knew he was a Sith Lord.
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
Yup. So much for their adherence to the law. They obviously saw themselves as above the law.
Or Yoda's stupid chain of reasoning that said fear lead to the dark side. That is not necessariliy an absolute law. Fear of loss CAN do that if not dealt with properly. But by ignoring it or cutting it off, they let it fester in Anakin until it became Palpatine's tool.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
Yes. Another very cool part of the Eps III novel is when it gives insight into what Yoda was thinking as he fought, and realized that he couldn't beat, Sidious. He saw that the jedi have been way too rigid and arrogant over the last 1000 years, while the Sith had evolved. He realized that a new breed of jedi would be needed to defeat them, which is why Luke is trained very differently to any other jedi, without all the strict rules and indoctrination from early childhood. It all ties into the post-RotJ novels in which we see that Luke's Jedi order is very different than Yoda's. That's exactly what Yoda wanted. The jedi needed to evolve like the Sith did.
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
Cool. Will read it next. And am looking forward to Luceno's next book:
"At the moment I'm working on a book that will form a loose trilogy with Labyrinth of Evil and Matt Stover's adaptation of Revenge of the Sith. Focusing on Darths Vader and Sidious, along with a band of Jedi that survives the events depicted in the film, Star Wars: Dark Lord begins before Revenge ends, and takes place over the course of the subsequent month or two."
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: He saw that the jedi have been way too rigid and arrogant over the last 1000 years, while the Sith had evolved. He realized that a new breed of jedi would be needed to defeat them, which is why Luke is trained very differently to any other jedi, without all the strict rules and indoctrination from early childhood.
Cool's not a word I would use to describe this. "Unlikely" is one I would choose.
He did a lot of objecting to Luke if it was all part of his plan. Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
Yoda's objections were obviously just him being a bit stubborn and maybe even nervous. He obviously intended to train Luke all along, he didn't really have a choice. It's like when a young child is told to take his medicine, but he objects. If the kid is smart, he knows that the medicine is good for him, and he knows that he's going to wind up taking it, but there's that rebellious streak that likes to put up a fight. That's how I always viewed Yoda's objections, since the first time I saw ESB.
In the RotS novel, it was Yoda who told Obi-wan to simply watch Luke, and not train him until the time seemed right. But after over 20 years of hiding from Vader, and contemplating just how wrong things went with Anakin, it's understandable that when the time came even Yoda would be a bit hesitant to train his son, especially when Luke failed his little patience test. I don't find it "unlikely" that his resolve may have wavered a little in 20 years, and it's not like it took very much 'convincing' to change his mind.
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
'Cool' was in reference to the fact that the novelization backs up my speculations regarding the Jedi's myopic point of view, both in practice and training and their role in the rise of the Sith and the loss of Anakin.
And despite the fact that Yoda objected to Luke (which, keep in mind, could have simply been part of a test to see if Luke was ready for the commitment) his training of Luke was much more fluid and less mentally rigid (what we saw of it, anyway) than what we see of the Jedi in the prequels.
Again and again Yoda told Luke to look past his preconceptions and 'unlearn' what he had learned. In retrospect, this sounds like what he had learned the hard way.
Now obviously, I know GL didn't have this all planned out when EpV was made. I don't think he had worked out the mechanism of how the Republic fell or the extreme ivory tower conservatism of the Jedi and how it contributed. Even in the prequels, some of his social and historical understanding is flawed. So it's no wonder that 20 years ago, none of this was there or planned for.
But despite all that, his characterization of Yoda and the Jedi in the prequels dovetail nicely with that of EpV. Yoda has obviously learned the hard lesson the Sith have taught him. But even then, that doesn't mean it's easy to apply in practice, especially when the moment is finally at hand to train the son of the man who betrayed the Jedi. If Anakin's age (and passion-fear) posed a problem that, in the end, partially led to his going to the dark side, how much more so Luke's 'abridged' instruction and his later harrying off to save his friends. And, as I said, he might have also been testing Luke's resolve.
In then end, I think the result is a rather cohesive whole, at least in that regard. Sure there are inconsistancies (with one major one) and a few minor ommissions. But that's to be expected with the way GL made them. But still, in regard to the failure of the Jedi and Yoda's role, I think the portrayal is very well done.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by neo-dragon: Yes. Another very cool part of the Eps III novel is when it gives insight into what Yoda was thinking as he fought, and realized that he couldn't beat, Sidious. He saw that the jedi have been way too rigid and arrogant over the last 1000 years, while the Sith had evolved. He realized that a new breed of jedi would be needed to defeat them, which is why Luke is trained very differently to any other jedi, without all the strict rules and indoctrination from early childhood. It all ties into the post-RotJ novels in which we see that Luke's Jedi order is very different than Yoda's. That's exactly what Yoda wanted. The jedi needed to evolve like the Sith did.
At one point in the original trilogy, doesn't Yoda basically tell Luke to have children? That's a pretty extreme departure from earlier Jedi practices.
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
Not to my knowledge. Of course, it is implied, as Luke is not the last of the old but the first of the new. But I cannot recall Yoda or Ben ever saying this.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
Ben said it the last time he ever appeared to Luke, 5 years after RotJ in the novel "Heir to the Empire". It may not be from the movies, but I think it's a pretty accurate statement. Yoda simply told Luke to pass on what he'd learned.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
Ah, that's what I was thinking of. Not quite the same thing.
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
The final word on the Syfo-Dias mystery:
From Dooku's POV we learn Syfo-Dias had been a Jedi and acquaintance of Dooku who could partially see where the Sith darkness was leading. Dooku's had also noticed it, the Jedi complacency and unwillingness to demand reform in the republic. They became so fixated on the Chosen One to fix things that they didn't act themselves. Dooku had already an interest in Darker matters because of the narrow-mindedness of the Jedi. It bugged him that others, like Syfo-Dias could see it but didn't have the courage to confront it openly.
At one point Syfo-Dias contacted the Kaminoans for a clone army, forseeing a need. But by then, Dooku had already been approached by Palpatine and he saw they had begun to share a similar outlook to remaking the galaxy. The event that sealed him as a Sith was the necessary murder of Syfo-Dias. Sidious wanted the army known about only at the right time.
If I recall correctly from a magazine interview with Luceno, the Syfo-Dias mystery was one of the items he personally discussed with GL since GL didn't/wouldn't have time to explain it in the movies. I can look for confirmation on that, but assuming it's true, that is the final explanation of the Syfo-Dias mystery.
Posted by Kamisaki (Member # 6309) on :
I'm also reading the novel right now (over halfway done) and it's awesome. A lot of the stupid dialogue is fixed, and it really allows you to get into the characters' heads and adds a lot to the story. I just wanted to point out something I found in there. Earlier on people were speculating that Darth Plagueis was Palpatine's master, and I just wanted to point out that in the book, Palpatine flat-out tells Anakin that he was, and that Palpatine killed him after learning all of his power from him. So no more speculation necessary on that part, you guys were right.
Also, one other thingthat I'd be interested in hearing your opinions on, what's your take on the supposed "political commentary" in this movie? The whole "only a Sith deals in absolutes" line and some other parts do seem to be fairly obvious jabs at the Bush administration, but there are other parts of the movie that flat-out contradict that interpretation of it. For instance, earlier in the movie, Palpatine is the one telling Anakin to look at things in a more relativistic manner. There are other bits in the movie that make it seem like he's trying to get across an anti-war message, but those are also contradicted by other events. So is Lucas a lot more nuanced than we give him credit for, and there wasn't supposed to be any overt political commentary, or did that other stuff sneak in in spite of him? What does everybody think?
Posted by Darth Ender (Member # 7694) on :
Sith Win! Sith Win! Yaaaaaaaa
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
So, back from the dead.
I was watching ep. III and I had some questions. They may have been answered in this thread, but I'm too lazy to reread. So here they are:
What happened to Anakin's eye (there's a vertical scar above and below his right eye)? Is that from the trials?
Where does the backstory involving General Grievous take place?
Who wrote the novelization of ep. III (this one I can actually handle on my own)? I understand it gave a lot of backstory/motivations.
Why does Lucas suck so badly at dialogue?
Just kidding on the last one. That's all for now. Anybody watch the special features?
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
So far I've only watched the deleted scenes. I really think they should've kept at least one concerning the organization of the Rebel Alliance. It would've made Padme a little less useless in the movie.
General Grievous's backstory is at least partially found in the Clone Wars DVDs. I can't help you with the rest.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I think that was my biggest Padme complaint. Her character turn around from harda** senator to whiny pregnant woman was instantaneous, and seemed totally off to me.
Posted by Enigmatic (Member # 7785) on :
Q: "What happened to Anakin's eye (there's a vertical scar above and below his right eye)?"
A: Badass cliche #4. Scars through the eye make you look really tough!
The Clone Wars cartoons were awesome. They answer a few questions but raise one big one: Why is Animated General Grievous so fearsome when CGI General Grievous is a total wuss?
--Enigmatic
Posted by Avatar300 (Member # 5108) on :
quote:The Clone Wars cartoons were awesome. They answer a few questions but raise one big one: Why is Animated General Grievous so fearsome when CGI General Grievous is a total wuss?
I haven't seen the Clone Wars cartoons, but I think I can answer the question. In the cartoons Greivous was facing other animated characters. In Revenge of the Sith he was fighting actual people, and thus his imaginary powers were useless.
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
The Clone Wars cartoon was cool. But it was very over-the-top.
I mean, Mace Windu takes out an ENTIRE army of droids, without a lightsaber, and all he suffers are some ragged clothes. And he flies.
Grievious was the same. In ROTS (while I thought his hacking was lame, GL's desire was to emphasize how weak he was internally and to prefigure the iron-lung bound Darth Vader) he had already killed many Jedi off-screen and thus had a collection of lightsabers. One deleted scene shows him casually killing Jedi Master Shaak Ti. But the Clone Wars cartoon ramped everyone up to be much more powerful than they ever were or were intended to be.
Padme had some pretty good deleted scenes in ROTS, with the formation of the rebel alliance that made her more than the pregnant woman. But ultimately, GL wanted the focus on Anakin and his fall. Personally, I don't think that reasoning is all that great, though.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
quote:Originally posted by El JT de Spang: So, back from the dead.
I was watching ep. III and I had some questions. They may have been answered in this thread, but I'm too lazy to reread. So here they are:
What happened to Anakin's eye (there's a vertical scar above and below his right eye)? Is that from the trials?
Where does the backstory involving General Grievous take place?
Who wrote the novelization of ep. III (this one I can actually handle on my own)? I understand it gave a lot of backstory/motivations.
Why does Lucas suck so badly at dialogue?
Just kidding on the last one. That's all for now. Anybody watch the special features?
I haven't read any of the clone wars era expanded universe novels, but I know that some of them feature Grievous, and probably tell you a bit about his backstory. He's also in the Clone Wars animated series. Anakin's scar is probably explained in the novels as well. The novelization is by Matthew Stover. In my opinion, it's not just a good novelization, or a good Star Wars novel, it's a pretty good book, period. Stover has also written a couple of Star Wars expanded universe novels. I've read one of them, and it was also pretty good. He has a knack for making Star Wars seem more real, and really getting inside the character's heads. Why is Lucas so bad at dialogue? I wish I knew. Ususally I can overlook it because I'm such a fan of the saga, and there are some good lines (mostly in the original trilogy though), but that one conversation between Anakin and Padme when they talked about being blinded by love makes me laugh at how unnatural it sounds every time. Actually, pretty much all of Padme's dialogue in RotS was lame. She's better off being seen and not heard in that movie.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
In one of the clone wars books, Asaj Ventriss (the bald chick in the Clone Wars Cartoons vol 1) gave him the scar.
RoTS the novel was great, as was Labyrinth of Evil, by Luceno.
On a side note, Tatooine Ghost...hmmm....had such great potential. Leia (a few years after ep VI)still can't stand the fact that she is Vader's daughter. She hates him and the person he was and wants nothing to do with him. And she fears having children because of the potential of loosing another Vader on the universe. While trying to get a secret code in a painting that could expose a number of New Republic operatives in imperial space, they end up on Tatooine. There, she comes across Kitster (Anakin's friend from Ep I) as well as a number of others who knew him back then. And he wasn't a monster (or has Han put it, "You keep waiting for the stories of how he strapped thermal detonators to Bantha's tails.") Later, she finds Shmi's journal to Anakin and learns of her death and how Anakin reacted. In all, it potentially could have a been a great novel, with so many things occuring that seemed just right, like their finding the place where Shmi died and Anakin first fell.
Too bad the execution ranged from fairly good to unbelievable and even ridiculous at times. The characters display that same range, sometimes great, sometimes so unbelievably out of character with themselves (or with anyone, for that matter).
I've half a mind to rewrite it for myself just so it can exist, because it SHOULD exist. We should see how Leia (since Luke already had) is able to reconcile to two Anakins and what she learns from it. Because this is my favorite part of the Hexology. The fall and redemption of Anakin Skywalker. And I want someone who was hostile toward him as Vader to make the journey backward and, at least, understand him and the tragedy that was his life. Not to excuse, but to understand.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by IanO: The Clone Wars cartoon was cool. But it was very over-the-top.
Amen. I hadn't seen The Clone Wars before Episode III, so I had no unrealistic expectations of what Grievous should be like. I was just fine with him.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
I saw the Clone Wars before RotS, but I knew that Grievous would be toned down in the movie, so I wasn't disappointed. I mean, look at Mace fighting the droid army. It was obvious that the cartoon exaggerated character's abilities in order to make for more exciting action sequences. That's not a criticism, by the way. It was a great series.
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And he thinks it's so funny. Idiot.![[Evil Laugh]](graemlins/evillaugh.gif)