quote:

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No, you should keep your opinion to yourself. That makes you a better friend and also someone she can always rely on for guidance.

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quote:

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I'm not sure if you're being ironic here, but if he doesn't offer his opinion, he's not offering guidance and there's no way that she would be able to rely on him for future guidance.

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1. She wants to
2. The boy in question is asking
3. The opportunity presents itself

Based on her response, you can tailor your answer accordingly.

But whether you tell her yes or no, remind her of condoms and the possibilities of STDs and pregnancy which are very real consequences and could still happen even when using a condom.

-Trevor
 

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Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
 
Oh, and thanks, adam613. That was nice of you.
 

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Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
 
NO! Don't say anything about condoms or STDs, just keep shouting "ABSTINENCE! ABSTINENCE! ABSTINENCE!"

[ May 04, 2005, 06:00 PM: Message edited by: jebus202 ]
 

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Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
 
Um, T makes some very good points. Even if you do go with the straight telling her not to do it, remind her that if she does anyway she needs to be as safe as possible.
 

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Posted by dabbler (Member # 6443) on :
 
jebus the guidance thing is that the act of guidance requires you to actually communicate something. and so if he refuses to communicate any advice/information/comments/opinions then in fact he's not guiding her at all. So why would she go to him for any more guidance?

3 months wait is a long time for kids. I'd probably laugh if someone told me to wait three months when I was considering it.

I had my own guidelines for myself and friends about this question of "doing it the first time." It went something like:

1) How comfortable am I with my own body, and with respect to this individual seeing my body? -- related to self-esteem
2) How comfortable am I with buying condoms at a store? Can I treat sex as something that requires responsibility and maturity?
3) Really how well do I know this person? Do I think I could accept the consequences if things don't work out with this person, or the unexpected happens?

[ May 04, 2005, 06:05 PM: Message edited by: dabbler ]
 

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Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
 
If I were in that situation, I would probably go into an explanation of what exactly the young man has on his mind and what he most likely thinks about her, and then ask her if she thinks it's worthwhile to participate in that. Among other things.
 

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Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
 
"And if the guy doesn't want to wear his little raincoat, frag him.

If he isn't concerned enough about you and the possibility of a pregnancy, you don't need to be having sex with him."

Sorry, stepping off the soap box.

-Trevor

Edit: Thanks El.

[ May 04, 2005, 06:05 PM: Message edited by: TMedina ]
 

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Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
 
I would start by asking about the reasons this has come up, but I would include the following:

"Are you ready to be a mother? No contraceptive is 100% effective, so if you have sex you may get pregnant.

Are you sure he doesn't have Aids? How many other women has he slept with?

As a young man in High School, my biggest fear with having sex was getting caught. I spent 10 times more time trying to find a place to "make out safely" then I did preparing to be safe. That proved that I was not ready. There are a lot more reasons to fear, reasons that can end your life, or ruin it."
 

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Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
 

quote:

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jebus the guidance thing is that the act of guidance requires you to actually communicate something. and so if he refuses to communicate any advice/information/comments/opinions then in fact he's not guiding her at all. So why would she go to him for any more guidance?

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Oh so now someone can't be relied on for guidance just because they don't give guidance? : :
 

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Posted by dabbler (Member # 6443) on :
 
Dan, I don't think it's fair to ask if she's ready to be a mother. I don't EVER want to be a mother. I don't think I'll ever be ready to be a mother.

But I'm ready to accept the choices I'd have to make if I got pregnant.
 

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Posted by Peter (Member # 4373) on :
 
ElJay, I'm 17 and I know her merely through school. I wouldn't even call us friends, which is why it startled me that she would ask my opinions on this.

Trevor, I think the reason that she wants to is all of the above. from what I gather out of our converstaions, she wants him to be her first, he continually begs and pleads, and they are together most weekends.

This sounds weird, being about as conservative as a 17 year old can get, but i really don't have the problem with her having sex, i have a problem with her getting hurt, because even though i barely know her, i do feel like an older borther to her.

When I talk to her tomorrow, I'll tell her this, and offer everyhting that was suggested, except for jebus. not because i don't agree, which i don't, but because i think that she will do it anyway, and i might as well give her what good advice i can, right?

I want to thank you all for your advice, and everything.

just one more quick question, even if i am uncomfortable with this, is it morally wrong of me to offer to buy the condoms for them in case they are afraid to do it themselves?
 

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Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
 

quote:

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i might as well give her what good advice i can, right?

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No, that's stupid.

[ May 04, 2005, 06:13 PM: Message edited by: jebus202 ]
 

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Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
 
I don't think it's morally wrong. I would ask if she has them, and if she says she doesn't and is trusting him to, tell her that's not good enough and that if she's considering having sex she needs to have her own. If she hesitates about buying them, yeah, go ahead and offer.
 

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Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
 
Wouldn't hurt to make sure she knows how to use 'em, either. Making her put one on a banana in front of you might not be a bad idea in any case.
 

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Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
 
IMO, if she's asking at all, it means she doesn't really want to and is hoping for some support that way.

And, also IMO, a 9th grader is neither ready to be a mother nor ready to fully think through the possibility of becoming one.
 

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Posted by J T Stryker (Member # 6300) on :
 
Speaking as teenage guy who has "done it". My advice to every teen (including girls who I have an interest in) is, if you have even the slightest doubt, don't.

As far as the buying condoms thing goes, it is my personal opinion that if your too embarrasses to buy condoms from a stranger whom you'll never know personally, then just imagine how you'll feel when the kids at school find out, and they will.
 

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Posted by Peter (Member # 4373) on :
 
ok, ElJay, i don't know how to thank you enough. This has been bugging me all day, and you reall have helped me. All of you have really, even jebus, who is making no sense to me, but is how i imaging i sound when i'm trying to get a point across. Tahnk you all.
 

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Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
 
Last addition: Him constantly begging and pleading is a great reason not to have sex with him, he should respect her enough to wait 'til she's ready. Telling her that might not help, but it might not hurt, either.

And I also want to say that I really admire you for doing this, and wanting to do it right.

Added: You're welcome. Glad you feel like it helped.

[ May 04, 2005, 06:19 PM: Message edited by: ElJay ]
 

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Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
 
Sorry, wanting him to be her first is fine.

Him begging and pleading is just a red flag.

And there isn't anything morally wrong with buying her condoms - you are doing everything within your limited influence to make sure she is as safe as possible.

Making sure she knows how to use a condom is as important as making sure she understands the risks if she doesn't know how to use one or doesn't make him use one.

Particularly if she's concerned that she doesn't want the feel of a condom for her "first time."

Although and I do feel a right bastard for this, but how old are you? If something goes wrong and for some reason people want to know where she got the condoms from, be prepared for some potential grief. And the possibility of criminal charges, depending on where you are and the attitude of the DA.

-Trevor
 

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Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
 
Yeah, I think there is a difference between a high school freshman being not ready to be a mother and a college studen (as I believe dabbler is) not being ready to be a mother. Also, if the guy is capable of talking her into having sex, he's also probably capable of talking her into either a hasty marriage or an abortion- pick your nightmare scenario. That's leaving aside cervical cancer or AIDS. Does she know about cervical cancer? A girl I was in Drama with got cervical cancer her freshman year of college. It is an STD of sorts- though I believe a man doesn't need to have gotten it from an infected partner. Anyone know for sure?
 

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Posted by dabbler (Member # 6443) on :
 
Yeah I second the seemingly pathetic nature of this guy. Someone who begs and pleads is using emotional leverage whether or not he means to.

The guy I'm with, we spoke about the possibility of a physical relationship some number of months ago, and after that point he never brought it up. We agreed things would progress when it seemed natural and comfortable for both of us. And though secretly he might have really wanted things to go faster, he never once put that kind of inadvertent pressure on me.

Also, generally speaking you should never have a conversation about important relationship landmarks while you're both semi-clothed or otherwise occupied. Have these kinds of conversations when you're both clear headed.

mothertree: I'm a few years out of college, though I agree that my mental state is not the same as the average freshman girl in HS. Course, I could only get to this mental state by making these kinds of decisions in high school.

[ May 04, 2005, 06:29 PM: Message edited by: dabbler ]
 

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Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
 
There is a virus called HPV that is spread by skin to skin contact, not blood-borne. There are many strains of it, the number that sticks in my head for some reason is 13, but I'm not sure. About 85% of sexually active Americans are estimated to carry it.

Cervical cancer is thought to be caused by one of the strains. I don't believe there is a direct link, but every woman who has cervical cancer has it. There's absolutely no way to tell if a guys got it or not, as far as I know.

*Insert not a doctor disclaimer here.

Added: Since it is spread skin-to-skin, any "fooling around" type contact can transmit it as well, so it can get through even if you use a condom for the act itself.

[ May 04, 2005, 06:32 PM: Message edited by: ElJay ]
 

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Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
 
Well, if abstinence supporters want to be consistant then they should start telling people to never touch another person.

::looks forward to seeing that happen::
 

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Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
 
All other moral considerations aside, I would tell her to wait until she was with a man who actually cared about her, not just a boy looking for somewhere to stick it. A man who was ready to love her and mature enough to give a damn how she felt. If nothing else, at least she would be able to look back at her "first time" without cringing.

[ May 04, 2005, 06:42 PM: Message edited by: advice for robots ]
 

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Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
 
afr, I can almost guarantee that any criticism of the boyfriend would produce instant defensiveness, “he’s not like that,” “he really loves me,” etc. And there’s a good chance that she’d talk herself into having sex with the guy even if she’s currently having doubts.

Peter, keep your advice focused on her. Is she sure, is she ready. You can ask questions about the guy – “Is he pressuring you?” but don’t tell her flat out you think her boyfriend is a slimebag, even if you do.

[ May 04, 2005, 07:35 PM: Message edited by: dkw ]
 

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Posted by rav (Member # 7595) on :
 
If it were me, I'd share some of my experience, and let her judge for herself. I wouldn't really try to persuade her to do anything. (In other words don't advise her to do anything, because if you do, and it turns out to be bad advice it will come back to haunt you. On the other hand if you have any experience that might help her see your point of view that would be more helpful, and potentially less damaging.

[ May 04, 2005, 07:29 PM: Message edited by: rav ]
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
jebus, how is it possible that you aren't banned after linking to that porn story? *laugh*
 

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Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
 
I'm a bit confused about the reasons she might be asking you specifically for advice, Peter. Does it make sense to you that she would ask you? Is there a reason that she would seek you out on this issue based on your past experience with her?

Is there a chance that she doesn't have others she could ask?

(seriously, knowing nothing about this girl, my imagination is left free some rather involved scenarios some of which would be troubling from the perspective of the advice-giver).

I think ElJay's approach is sound and avoids most of the pitfalls I can see from your perspective.

But it does concern me.

How educated is she about sex from at least a subject-matter (health class) perspective? Is this likely to be her first time or do you know that she's already sexually active?

Does she know what to expect from the whole activity?

Does she know what to expect in terms of simply courteous and respectful behavior from members of the male gender (whether sexual activity is likely or not)?

Is she really hoping that you'll make the decision for her? And if so, do you want that kind of responsibility -- even if you don't believe that you HAVE the responsibility, if she believes you could still be involved in a troubling relationship after the fact.

In short, how responsible is she for her own decision in her own mind?

Ah well...before I just drive you into vapor lock over this, I do think that you are displaying a level of maturity in your questions and concerns that I find encouraging.

Bottom line is that since she asked, you have the right to offer your opinion completely unvarnished or in whatever way you feel appropriate to the situation. She can choose to ignore your advice or take it. But ultimately she should know that she's responsible for her own decision.

Telling someone that is a painful and not-very-welcome thing. But if you have any doubts at all about her maturity or reasons for seeking your opinion in the first place, you might want to find a way to discuss that issue as well.

Sadly, I'm not a good person to offer you advice on how to approach that. ElJay's advice to keep your discussion focussed on "HER" is probably good enough. My natural inclination would be to go further and probably insult the poor girl into never talking to me again. But then, I'm not very subtle.

A good question that pops into my mind is whether or not there isn't some way to encourage her to go into an information seeking mode for awhile before starting or continuing sexual activity. There's a lot to learn and know and be comfortable with before one is really equipped to make a well-informed decision. Most of us don't go that route, of course, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be better for us if we did.

Then the question isn't about advice and "do it/don't do it" but about how to prepare to make informed choices.

Oh well. I'm afraid I'm not being very helpful here.

I know what I would want any of the kids I know to be doing, and advising each other. But it's not all that likely that she'd go seek out her parents for advice on this...is it?
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
*laugh* Not never, adam.

*hums* Negiah, I just started keeping negiah . . .
 

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Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
 

quote:

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ElJay's advice to keep your discussion focussed on "HER" is probably good enough.

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While that was excellent advice, it was not mine. It was your wife's.
 

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Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
 

quote:

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jebus, how is it possible that you aren't banned after linking to that porn story? *laugh*

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Bah! It wasn't porn!

 

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Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
 
Eljay...



-Trevor
 

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Posted by Peter (Member # 4373) on :
 
Ok, let's see if i can answer everything that was asked of me in a sensible manner, but first an update.

I talked to her today about what she decided to do, and she said it wasn't going to happen this weekend, and that she talked to her boyfriend about it. From what i gathered he seems to be under the impression that i talked her out of it, but she doesn't believe this. I can deal with pressure fomr him, but i don't want her to think i made the decision for her, because it's not mine to make.

Bob, these are all answers to your questions:

In a way it makes sense that she would come to me, because i keep a little bit of distance between me and everyone, but i'm also very open. so i can see why she would come to me, because i would be honest, yet have no reason to tell anyone. I really have had no experience with her, we never dated or anything of the like, i have only been talking to her for this school year. As to whether she has others she can ask, i think she does, but also knows that they aren't the best to go to for that sort of advice. (She's in the 'skater punk' crowd, not to steryotype, but it gives you an idea)

Freshman at my school are required to takea sex-ed class for a semester, so she has either taken it, or is taking it now, which it is, i don't know. This would be her first time with vaginal sex. She's fairly active with this guy on an oral level and has been with other guys before, but this would be the first time she 'goes all the way'

I don't know that she does know what to expect. I wish i could help her out on what to expect, but i have to problems. the first involves me being of the opposite gender, and the second being that i myself am a virgin.

About the courteous thing, look at the skater punk thing, no one she hangs out with knows what that word even means.

I can not make this decision for her. I want her to decide for herself. I will help her with anything i can, short of deciding. This is her decision and i won't do it because 1) i don't want to and 2) if i decide, it would be my decision, not hers.

Again, i want to thank all of you, and if you guys want, i'll keep u updated.
 

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Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
 
I hope the sex ed program included lessons about oral transmission of STDs.

-Trevor
 

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Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
 
indeed.

I'm sorry to say I've exceeded my comfort level in advising on this. Basically, oral sex is sex. Sure, you can't get pregnant (unless you try real hard), but the transmission of disease is still possible and IMHO, it is also a behavior not to be engaged in casually.

But then, I'm a prude.

There is one perspective here that I don't see anyone else bringing up, but I feel should at least be explored. In essence, we have a 15 year old virgin asking advice from a 17 year old virgin of the opposite sex. Trust is obviously a big factor in her decision to seek you out, Peter. But the bottom line may be that you aren't equipped to give much advice. And I don't just mean BECAUSE you are a virgin.

I had a friend in high school who went through a similar episode with a girl who was a friend of his (and not involved with him sexually at all). She came to him for help when she realized she was pregnant. I remember his approach and advice seeming perfectly reasonable at the time. Now I look back on it and I'm just appalled at what they came up with as a way to handle the situation.

I think you, as the advice giver, might want to consider whether or not you have the long-term perspective to truly offer this girl advice. And, in a sense, you might have to look to your own future and decide whether what you're thinking of telling her now is truly wise, or just seems wise.

I understand that she may not ever want to get advice from someone much older than herself, or she may not really trust her parents (or the other adults in her surroundings) to be objective and calm about it.

But my hope is that she might be able to find a woman who is older and trustworthy to talk with her about all of the issues surrounding sexual activity during these years, and even beyond into adulthood. It's all about making choices, but wouldn't it be better if she found someone who'd faced those choices, and the consequences, and can really clue her in to what's at stake here?

I am somewhat hesitant to suggest seeking a mental health professional, but that's one avenue worth exploring. Her own doctor perhaps? Obviously, it should be someone who (at least at this stage) is bound to honor confidentiality.

Sorry if I've offended you in what I'm saying here. It's not that I think you can't offer her good advice (because it sounds like you really could). It's just that she probably needs more than just advice. Information and the perspective of having been through it all would be better.

I do know some clergy who would be the ideal kind of person to talk to. I can understand a reluctance to go that route for advice on preteen sexuality (especially if one actually WANTED to engage in sex), but some of the clergy I know would be honest and discreet, and work to understand the concerns of the person, not JUST provide the answer one would expect...
 

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Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
 
I still feel like a bastard for mentioning it, but be careful you don't get flak and legal action for providing the condoms.

-Trevor
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 

quote:

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I'm sorry to say I've exceeded my comfort level in advising on this.

<nine paragraphs of really, really good advice>

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This just struck me for some reason.

[ May 05, 2005, 10:01 PM: Message edited by: Dagonee ]
 

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Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
 
Yeah, that crossed my mind too. I came very close to not posting at all.


 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 
Just to emphasize, though, it was nine paragraphs of really, really good advice.
 

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Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
 
Really? I feel like I probably just made Peter go into vapor lock and may have left this girl with no-one to help her think it through.

But...maybe someone knows. Are there resources formally available that are like what I'm suggesting she seek out.

I figure in big cities there probably is something -- teen crisis center or some kind of mental health or regular health clinic with discrete treatment?

I don't know what would be generally available for kids in suburban or rural settings. Or in small cities.

But then, it's been awhile since I've had to know these things.
 

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Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
 
I do hope I'm not the only one completely stunned to hear that 15 year olds are this active....
 

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Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
 
Sorry - after the mass STD spread through a suburb of Atlanta five years ago, very little surprises me anymore.

Which makes the current attitudes towards sex ed to be particularly depressing.

-Trevor
 

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Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
 
When hasn't there been 15-year olds this active? The percentages change, but it's happened as long as there have been humans. Not saying if it's good or bad, mind you, but it's hardly new.

Nothing much to add beyond the excellent advice already offered. The begging and pleading bothers me, a lot. If he's not ready for her to initiate that decision, he's not ready.

(This is not a teen thing. 30-year-olds who pressure women into sex are just as immature. They're not ready, either.)

You might ask her why she wants to do it now. Why she would want to, not why he would. Yes, she wants him to be her first, but supposedly they'll be together for years, yes? They can wait. And whatever your opinions of birth control, the fact of the matter is that having sex before you can support any possible children is a mistake.

Be there for her, whatever she decides. If he gives you grief, let us know. We've got your back.
 

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Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
 
She could also try going to a good teen-focused sex-ed site and asking there. I'd suggest http://www.scarleteen.com . Comprehensive, as factually accurate as possible, doesn't talk down to anybody, and the forums are an excellent source of advice from both professionals and other teens who are going through the exact same thing. What she hears from you will be, at the end of the day, second hand since you've never been where she is. A lot of the people in the scarleteen forums have, and will recognize the signs.

Note: this site has sex-related content, but is not an "adult" site. May or may not be safe for work depending on how your company feels about such things. It's also most definitely not an "abstinence-only" advice site, although it is promoted as the only truly safe course. The site does emphasize responsibility and respect for your partner and yourself, and personally I think that works better.
 

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