Hatrack River Forum: Sci Fi Religious Querry

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Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :

Since this forum has people interested in Science Fiction and of various faiths, this question seems perfect for here.

Your church has sent you to a cross-denominational "People of Faith" convention in Trenton New Jersey (The Council of Trenton). The President is flying in to speak to the various leaders, and you get to be in the room as second assistant flunky to the main representative of your faith.

That's when the President drops the bomb shell.

"We have been contacted by beings from another planet. The lab guys assure me this is no hoax. We don't know what they want except to talk with us. Where do aliens fit in with God, Jesus and the Bible? Are these demons? Jesus was the son of God and Man, where does that put these beings? Should I assume they are demons or angels?"

Please note, this is not an attack on Christianity or any religion. Its more an attack on Science Fiction, which has too often calmly announced, "the aliens arrived" and don't mention how Earths religions would react to that. Even Superman is from another planet. Would he be accepted as the great hero in churches that are literal to the bible?

Posted by Portabello (Member # 7710) on :

Well, do the aliens act like angels or devils?

Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :

*thinks* I swear I just read/saw something that addressed this. What was it? Was it the Galileo biography? No, because it talked about aliens specifically. Some thread on Hatrack?

Anyway, LDS would have no problem.

Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :

quote:
Should I assume they are demons or angels?"

Neither.

What makes us think we are so great that we are so sure we are the ONLY things ever created by God? It is a very human view to think that we are the center of the Universe, instead of only one very small part of many more things beyond our understanding.

My 2 cents.
Farmgirl

Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :

I think that it would lead us to the point where we had to extend our definition of what has a soul. We might push God back up a bit and demote Jesus to "God's Human Representative" Leaving the Spirit as Universal.

BC

Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :

Well, the Lord having created them as he did ourselves, he probably created them in his own image as well.

Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :

So then you think that all beings in the universe possessing a certain level of intelligence will be humanoid? Or godoid, rather?

Posted by Cow-Eating Man (Member # 4491) on :

Does that mean they would look like us, or they would look like Him as much as we do?

Posted by Cow-Eating Man (Member # 4491) on :

You need to type slower.

Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :

Gene Roddenbury was right!

BC

Posted by Portabello (Member # 7710) on :

quote:
So then you think that all beings in the universe possessing a certain level of intelligence will be humanoid? Or godoid, rather?

I think so. But I don't necessarily believe so.

[ April 26, 2005, 01:51 PM: Message edited by: Portabello ]

Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :

I don't put any such limitations on God.

While He had a design and plan when He created us, and that plan included what Jesus had to do for us; that doesn't mean there can't be some other, different thing, going on somewhere else.

Farmgirl

Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :

Which Katie are you asking? I always wonder what part of my brain should answer hypothetical questions, since so often the discussion is shut down if the Mormon Katie is involved.

Secular Katie doesn't believe intelligent aliens exist at all.

Whole, non-skeptical Katie thinks that our existence took such an unbelievable series of events that the only way it would be duplicated is if Heavenly Father made it happen. [Smile]

In that case, yes, aliens would also be in God's image.

Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :

I am being very limited here not to confuse issues.

We have not "seen" the aliens, nor do we know their agenda. They have only communicated with us, maybe via Seti.

This way I am not stacking the deck. I don't want to get into "God's Image" territory yet.

And some religious conservatives may have trouble believing the aliens are anything but lies since,

A)This adds a few layers of confusion to "Revelations".

B)Other worlds are not listed in the things God created in Genesis.

C)God gave man dominion over every living thing that moves on the earth. These aliens can not be equals, but must be animals to be dominated by us.

You can see where a major crisis of faith would erupt, creating some fanatical fringe conspiracy groups that would be dangerous for everyone.

Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :

Terry Pratchett. Where I read about aliens and its effects on world's religions - it has to be, that's the only think I've been reading lately that includes both religion and aliens.

Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :

I don't personally agree with your C) point Dan. If these things aren't FROM Earth, then what makes you think we should have dominion over them?

Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :

Well, I believe everything God does he does to his own glory, and if it glorified him to create life in other places, then I don't see a reason why not. It's not for me to say what God can and cannot do. Nothing in scripture explicitly states we are the only life to be found anywhere, though it's easy to imply that based on the fact that the creation of earth and man appear to serve the purpose of carrying out God's redemptive plan.

There would be all kinds of theological questions raised - are these creatures fallen? If so, how are they redeemed, if at all?

It would be interesting, to be sure. Lots of debate would ensue. But would it completely capsize and destroy the faith? I don't *think* so. It's such a "what-if" proposition, there's no real way to say what would truly happen.

In my personal view, I think we're alone. I would be very, very surprised to find out we're not. But, like Farmgirl said, I don't put anything past God.

Posted by Cow-Eating Man (Member # 4491) on :

I don't know. Which Katie answers questions instead of repeating them?

quote:
Well, the Lord having created them as he did ourselves, he probably created them in his own image as well.

quote:
Does that mean they would look like us, or they would look like Him as much as we do?

quote:
Whole, non-skeptical Katie thinks that our existence took such an unbelievable series of events that the only way it would be duplicated is if Heavenly Father made it happen. In that case, yes, aliens would also be in God's image.

So, what is God's image? Human? Biped? Air breathing?

Posted by UofUlawguy (Member # 5492) on :

I think religions would adapt pretty quickly. I think that they tend to be flexible when faced with stark reality, like the world being spherical and not the center of the universe. As soon as there is no longer any reasonable possibility of denial in the face of evidence, even the most conservative religion will find a way to reconcile its dogma with observed fact. The only real argument I see is as to when that point has been reached, but having actual aliens on hand, along with their technology, would be pretty hard to argue with.

One of my favorite editorial cartoonists, Calvin Grondahl, had this series of cartoons about Mormon missionaries in space, proselytizing the aliens. I still remember the one where a couple of elders are arguing with a "little green man" about the nature of God:

"He has a body of flesh and bone!"

"No, he has a body of slime and scales!"

"Flesh and bone!"

"Slime and scales!"

Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :

oh, and I should have stated from the start, this is a purely hypothetical, possibly novel creating, discussion.

Before I write down what other people would say about this news, I am asking to find out what other people have to say about this news.

But this isn't news.

I do not know anything secret or special.

So please, tell those black helicopters to fly away.

Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :

quote:
A)This adds a few layers of confusion to "Revelations".

B)Other worlds are not listed in the things God created in Genesis.

C)God gave man dominion over every living thing that moves on the earth. These aliens can not be equals, but must be animals to be dominated by us.

I don't agree that any of the above are sticking points. There are plenty of confusing things in Revelation as it is, Genesis is an account of the creation of this world and not the whole universe, and the aliens would quite clearly not be moving on the earth and so wouldn't have anything to do with our dominion.

Posted by Portabello (Member # 7710) on :

Exactly what I was thinking, kat.

Posted by Cow-Eating Man (Member # 4491) on :

As was I.

Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :

What if aliens came and we found out that they never got kicked out of their Garden of Eden?

"You mean you actually atethe apple? He told you not to! So much for finding intelligent life of this planet."

Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :

quote:
So, what is God's image? Human? Biped? Air breathing?

Hmm...for me, the question is not what are the essential qualities that make us appear in God's image, since God has been seen and we look like him, but rather if God would also make other aliens in his image.

I think so, because I think God made us look like him because it was the best possible course of action, and I think that if he created other worlds, he'd want the best for them as well, but I don't know.

In small moments, I sometimes question the design of knees. I don't like the design - so many people have problems with them and they can be twisted so easily. I sort of hope that knees can be improved on. But that's all.

Posted by Portabello (Member # 7710) on :

Perelandra by C. S. Lewis explores the idea of aliens who decide to not eat the fruit.

Posted by Portabello (Member # 7710) on :

quote:
In small moments, I sometimes question the design of knees. I don't like the design - so many people have problems with them and they can be twisted so easily. I sort of hope that knees can be improved on.

I have those exact quesions fairly frequently. "Why did go design us this way? Wouldn't this be a much better design? [Dont Know]

Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :

Those books lept to my mind upon seeing this thread also. [Smile]

Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :

What about our inability to regenerate our spinal chords when they get broken? Seems like a bigger design flaw than the knee if you ask me.

Posted by Portabello (Member # 7710) on :

The engineer in me asks a lot of questions like that.

Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :

That's true. <speculative Katie> I wonder if that's just intentional design flaws that go along with being mortal? We are still in his image, but a cheaply-made, garage version done from photographs?

Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :

quote:
Ether 12:27 ...I give unto men weakness that they may be humble;

Posted by TheTick (Member # 2883) on :

In reality, He probably outsourced our construction to a 'lower cost geography' where high quality knees and regenerative spinal cords are replaced with substandard parts.

Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :

Bev: Oh, that totally supports my theory. "You get the Barbie Jaguar go-cart now. You'll get the real Jaguar after you learn to handle the go-cart."

[ April 26, 2005, 02:21 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]

Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :

[Smile]

*drives test model around*

Posted by Taalcon (Member # 839) on :

Significant LDS scripture. from the Book of Moses:

quote:
And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten. And the a first man of all men have I called Adam, which is many. But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you. For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them.

Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :

I assume that aliens that hadn't eaten the apple wouldn't be able to distinguish good from evil, right? Given that I'd think that their reaction to the fact that we'd eaten the apple would be "Huh".

[ April 26, 2005, 02:28 PM: Message edited by: Noemon ]

Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :

(In response to the assertions that any intelligent creature would be humanoid, took me a while to pin down the sources)

You kidding me?

Just look at our own Earth and you can see paths of evolution that may some day end up with beings of equal inteligence to us, and are definately NOT humanoid. Dolphins to name just one example. They are already very intelligent (and self aware) if not quite up to our level. Given more time it is entirely possible that they could end up with our level of intelligence. If you want a more extensive and highly scientific source on this, look here. (Its a pdf).

Intelligence is not nearly as limited to we humans on Earth as we like to think. We just happen to be the first who got our hands on this kind of tool using/language speaking intelligence and ran with it.

[ April 26, 2005, 02:30 PM: Message edited by: Alcon ]

Posted by Cow-Eating Man (Member # 4491) on :

Yeah, but dolphins don't have souls. They're more like God's pets than his children. Obviously, we'd have dominion over non-humanoid aliens of any intelligence. They'd just be creatures.

Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :

Why? Why do you think humans would have dominion?

Posted by no. 6 (Member # 7753) on :

quote:
Yeah, but dolphins don't have souls. They're more like God's pets than his children. Obviously, we'd have dominion over non-humanoid aliens of any intelligence. They'd just be creatures.

The dolphins would have souls in Buddhist dogma. But then again, so do rocks. [Big Grin]

Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :

Well, you know that Cow_Eating_Man doesn't really believe that, don't you kat?

Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :

quote:
Yeah, but dolphins don't have souls. They're more like God's pets than his children. Obviously, we'd have dominion over non-humanoid aliens of any intelligence. They'd just be creatures.

So what gives you the right to decide what does and does not have a soul? And can you tell me what critiera you are using in your decision of what has a soul and what doesn't, what basis for evalutation? What is required of a creature for it to have a soul in your eyes? Simply that it be human?

Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :

I don't believe that "in His image" necessarily means anything about what we look like at all.

There's a Psalm that talks about many worlds. I've always liked that one. [Smile]

If we had definite proof of aliens, it would make no difference to my religious world view. Link

Posted by no. 6 (Member # 7753) on :

I'd rather get to be the one who decides who lives and who dies. Souls, who cares? [Dont Know]

Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :

::Adjusts Alcon's sarcasmometer::

Posted by Cow-Eating Man (Member # 4491) on :

Dudes, I just want to be a character in Dan's book.

Because if they came to Earth and turned out to not be in his image, they'd fall under Dan's C).

quote:
So what gives you the right to decide what does and does not have a soul? And can you tell me what critiera you are using in your decision of what has a soul and what doesn't, what basis for evalutation? What is required of a creature for it to have a soul in your eyes? Simply that it be human?

I only seek to accept what the Lord says to me through my pastor. It would be vanity to question any such distinctions as He has laid out.

Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :

CEM said it, and it's all a speculative thread. Why not justify it?

So, CEM, why do you think that? Or, as I suspect, you were mocking people who believe scripture, why do you think they would believe that?

Added: Nice that this is a respectful place to post beliefs.

[ April 26, 2005, 02:44 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]

Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :

I believe that everything living has a soul, according to LDS theology:

quote:
Doctrine and Covenants 77:2 ...the spirit of man in the likeness of his person, as also the spirit of the beast, and every other creature which God has created.

I can't find it now, but there is suggestion that the earth itself possesses a spirit of sorts with some sort of intelligence.

There are also many scriptures in the Pearl of Great Price that explain that everything was created spiritually before it was created physically. This seems to suggest that all matter has a spiritual counterpart. Though honestly, I have no idea what it really means. That is just one possibility.

Posted by Cow-Eating Man (Member # 4491) on :

I am not mocking the broad catagory of people who believe scripture. I am mocking a very specific subset of a very specif philosophy 101 course, who said, among other things, that doing the assignment (finding flaws in Descarte's arguements for the existance of God) was impossible as it would lead to eternal damnation.

This is very character specific.

Posted by no. 6 (Member # 7753) on :

*mocks the broad catagory of people who believe in bigfoot*
[Razz]

Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :

'But the Dolphin makes it taste better!'

H Simpson

Seriously though, you cannot hope that all intellegent life will resemble us, I believe in the Law of Mediocrity. If evolution proceeds here at breakneck speed, which it seems too, then so it is everywhere in the universe. Life will develop and evolve anywhere where it is possible to the limits of the available resorces. Wherever that means intellegence is possible it will evolve in whatever form it needs to to adapt to the local environment.

Tounges of flame touching a thousand thousand worlds.

I had forgotten that quote from the Book of Mormon, I wonder if it predates science fiction speculation about life on other worlds? It seems to me that there was some French Satire that explored the possibility ages ago but I cannot recall the facts of it.

BC

Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :

I dunno, when was the first Sci-Fi?

Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :

CEM: Oh, okay. I understand.

The quote is from the Pearl of Great Price, not from the BoM, Bean Counter. Well before the twentieth century.

Posted by no. 6 (Member # 7753) on :

Wasn't it Cyrano De Bergerac's ramblings on his trip to the moon?

[Edit: in response to bev]

[ April 26, 2005, 02:53 PM: Message edited by: no. 6 ]

Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :

BC, the people that are arguing that aliens would be godoid don't believe in evolution, or at least not in unguided evolution, so your argument isn't really going to hold any weight with them. I agree with you on that point myself, but it isn't going to be a compelling argument to people who don't share your base assumptions going into the argument.

Posted by ludosti (Member # 1772) on :

bev - I think you're thinking of:

quote:
D&C 88:25 - And again, verily I say unto you, the earth abideth the law of a celestial kingdom, for it filleth the measure of its creation, and transgresseth not the law—
26 Wherefore, it shall be sanctified; yea, notwithstanding it shall die, it shall be quickened again, and shall abide the power by which it is quickened, and the righteous shall inherit it.

[ April 26, 2005, 03:11 PM: Message edited by: ludosti ]

Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :

I thought so, nice catch on the part of the BOM! Kind of a 'we are the only ones who anticipated that' just waiting to be sprung.

BC

Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :

BC: Unless God guided evolution in order to come up with specific outcomes. This is my personal belief, personally. [Big Grin]

Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :

That's one reason why I loved Babylon 5, because it dealt with Earth religions interacting with aliens. Especially an episode in Season One where Sinclair introduces the Big Four alien ambassadors to reps of all of Humanity's religions. Such a beautiful scene!

quote:
I think that it would lead us to the point where we had to extend our definition of what has a soul. We might push God back up a bit and demote Jesus to "God's Human Representative" Leaving the Spirit as Universal.

I think this is a good way for Christianity to deal with contact.

Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :

Thanks, ludosti. [Smile]

There is also God and Enoch's conversation where they see the earth suffering because of the wickedness on it. Enoch's strongest sympathy is with the earth there, not with the living beings on the earth. He weeps for the earth. Why weep on behalf of something that can't perceive?

Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :

no.6 (still don't know who you are), that does set the earliest sci-fi pretty far back!

Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :

You know, this discussion has gotten me thinking about how it would impact my worldview if we made contact and they *were* humanoid. That would really blow my mind. What would be the possible explanations? Feel free to add to the list--I'm sure I'm missing some--but so far I've come up with

1. Kat and bev's theory
2. Either they are transplanted stock from Earth, or we've been wrong about or terrestrial origins, and we're transplanted stock from somewhere else.
3. The aliens are capable of shapeshifting either consciously or unconsciously.
4. Hmmm...I know I had a number 4. What was it?

Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :

quote:
::Adjusts Alcon's sarcasmometer::

Ahhh... much better. Thanks.

Sorry CEM [Blushing]

Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :

I agree that evolution is guided, in fact I believe that the same force that allows for the transformation of the self is responsible for guiding evolution. However I have always felt that Jesus was just a very refined conduit for that force (Holy Ghost, Spirit, Holy Spirit) The product of good breeding and training.

The fact is that some alien life form might actually be more duarable and better able to handle large quantities of the spirit. I have heard that encounters with the Spirit caused Joseph Smith to experience seizures, and this is not atypical of holy men. My own encounters have exhausted me even when I was in fantastic shape. it feels like energy flow to me.

The universe is a pragmatic place, and if say gravity were 1.5 G's then you would have to seriously modify the human form to make it practical on another world. Smaller lungs, shorter, many things. It is easy to see that an alien might no more resemble a man then a dog does.

BC

Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :

Actually bev it goes back farther than that. I'm drawing a blank on what SF there is that goes back further than that, but I'll look it up tonight if it doesn't occur to me first.

Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :

quote:
::Adjusts Alcon's sarcasmometer::

Ahhh... much better. Thanks [Blushing]

Posted by Portabello (Member # 7710) on :

#4 -- bizarre coincidence.

Posted by Portabello (Member # 7710) on :

#4 -- bizarre coincidence

Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :

quote:
::Adjusts Alcon's sarcasmometer::

Ahhh... much better. Thanks.

Sorry CEM [Blushing]

Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :

#5 Convenience--a little forehead makeup, and voila! Aliens!
#6 Appeal--'cmon, sex with non-humanoid aliens just isn't very interesting.

Ooops, I think I crossed the line into fiction somewhere. [Wink]

[ April 26, 2005, 03:50 PM: Message edited by: beverly ]

Posted by no. 6 (Member # 7753) on :

We're here... In this place...

Posted by Portabello (Member # 7710) on :

We're back! [Smile]

Posted by Mayfly (Member # 7870) on :

You said too much. I told you that would happen.

(It's because y'all persist in asking a "querry" instead of an ordinary "query." Bad things happen when you trill your 'r's indiscriminately.)

[ April 26, 2005, 03:52 PM: Message edited by: Mayfly ]

Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :

Read Calculating God by Robert J Sawyer. Great sci fi novel on the subject.

Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :

I acutally bought that about two weeks ago.

Posted by maui babe (Member # 1894) on :

My former bishop was a professor of anatomy at the University I attended, and a world reknowned expert on embryology, birth defects and the drug Thalidomide. His speciality was limb formation, and he once explained to me in great detail why there could not be insectoid aliens (or any aliens with more than four limbs) based on what we know of anatomy.

It made a lot of sense, but unfortunately, I don't remember any of the details, since I was studying microbiology instead of anatomy.

sorry for the totally pointless derail. [Razz]

Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :

So, no Hive Queen? [Frown]

Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :

I'd love to hear his explanation maui babe. Do you remember even the vaguest bit of his rationale?

Posted by Puppy (Member # 6721) on :

quote:
I don't put any such limitations on God.

Farmgirl, I'm always confused when people say this sort of thing. People who believe that God has natural limits (like the inability to encompass paradoxes, or the unwillingness to do evil) do not believe that they are "putting" those limits on God. They believe they are "observing" limits that God already has.

It's not like the idea of "God" naturally encompasses all infinities and superlatives, and any perceived limits are placed there by human beings trying to elevate themselves or force God into a more comprehensible mold.

The idea of "God" has no natural definition. Different people define God in different ways. Attributing someone's definition of God to their own desire to "limit" Him is pretty ... I don't know, closed-minded.

But maybe that's not how you meant it [Smile]

[ April 26, 2005, 05:54 PM: Message edited by: Puppy ]

Posted by JonnyNotSoBravo (Member # 5715) on :

You guys aren't even taking into account that the aliens might want to learn about our religions so they can come to the earth disguised as gods and have the people bow to them!

Posted by maui babe (Member # 1894) on :

Noeman,

It had to do with how cells divide as they're multiplying. He drew a sketch of how quadrupeds vs. how arthropods form limbs.

Maybe I misstated (this discussion was about 5 or 6 years ago)... I think he was explaining why there would never be human sized arthropods, not why there would never be intelligent ones. So there could be non-quadruped aliens, they just couldn't be very big.

Of course, 'very big' is quite relative, I know. To me, an 8 inch centipede or spider is DANG big, but not hive queen/bugger nightmare big.

Posted by maui babe (Member # 1894) on :

I hope to see my former neighbor this summer when I visit Idaho... I'll try to remember to ask him about it then.

Edit: Interestingly, the discussion I mentioned was shortly after I'd given him Ender's Game and he and his family had read it. Our then pre-adolescent sons were fascinated with the idea of mansized bugs and the conversation grew from that.

[ April 26, 2005, 06:14 PM: Message edited by: maui babe ]

Posted by Enigmatic (Member # 7785) on :

Regarding the original question, my religious reaction to first contact with aliens would be mostly along the lines of "Hey, how's it going out there in the universe?"

But then, I'm a taoist and we're not very concerned with hierarchies and classifications and such.

--Enigmatic

Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :

quote:
I think he was explaining why there would never be human sized arthropods, not why there would never be intelligent ones. So there could be non-quadruped aliens, they just couldn't be very big.

Oh, okay. And of course, there is no reason why 6 or 8 (or whatever) limbed beings would necessarily be arthropods. I was going to point out that there are some fairly bright 6 and 8 limbed creatures floating around in our own oceans. That makes a lot more sense.

Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :

Finding Serenity. That's where I read about the possible reactions of religion when confronted with aliens.

I think. It must be - it's the only thing in the stacks I noticed around my house that fits.