There are two things that I've always felt set Hatrack apart from most of the online forums I've explored. One is the "speak with passion listen with respect" ideal which is aspired to here, and the other is the degree of attention that's paid to grammar and spelling.
We've had a number of people who, when they first began posting here, demonstrated such incredibly poor writing skills that their posts were all but unreadable, but whose writing abilities improved drastically when it became clear that in order to develop respect here they needed to be able to communicate clearly.
In a post on the other side, in response to a new member saying :
quote:i could go on for days but im not going to. Im just fifteen so if ne one reads this and says to themself "this guy has bad grammer," or "this guy makes no sense," im fifteen and you know what that means.
OSC said:
quote:Your grammar's fine. Online postings are a branch of oral literature <grin> so only pinheads get upset about informality online.
I'd agree that the writing in most posts here is fairly informal--sentence fragments, slang, and so forth are common elements of many posts here, including my own--but nonetheless I don't think that it's "pinheaded" to expect a certain level of clarity in a post that is intended to be read and responded to by other members of the forum. In the past when someone has begun their posting career with an agrammatical bang they've been called on it fairly quickly, and have generally responded well.
A good example of this would be Maethoriell. Anybody remember what her posts were like when she first came to the forum? Here's an example of one of the earliest threads in which she appeared:
quote:uh....im new..thanks Toretha..uh...abot the TTT, uh..u really don't think ppl would actualy dot hat about teh 9/11 thing, if they had to change movie scenes b4 it? i mean there was collaterall damage i think, mib2, and i think 3 others..yes, it was made b4 the 9/11 attack was and they could've changed the title, but it's the titleof a book so techincaly they can't, AND if they were to take it out of theaters, u wouldn't understand the final of the three. return of the king, (ROTK)..don't b embarrassed if u r..many other could've made da same mistake, u know..but it is rather funny no offense..lol..or bettr. roflmao,2...ok.ok..if u'd like any info about TTT i got some for ya..i'm a big fanatic like da rest hea..so um..next time u want to make a lsight criticism, i tihnk it wise to make sure u look up in da origin and stuff like dat..could get u humiliated if u dont..worse if it's on cyberspace..hehe.. laterz..say hi to agath lucifretta bob 4 me plz toretha? lolz.don't ask about bob
To me, that's so difficult to read as to be nearly impenetrable. Mae was asked to spend a little time working on her grammar and spelling, to which she responded:
quote:don't worry..as long as u know the basis, ur ok.it's just extra stuff i put sincei ype wut my mind thinks forgetting that i'm typing stuff that may seem absurd...anyway i'im only in junior high. we're not supposed to make sense
Quite correctly, in my mind, Scott R called her on this, saying "Baloney. Don't EVER use your age for an excuse in this forum."
Mae took this to heart, and in fairly short order her posts became clear. She became a respected and valued member of the forum, which would not have happened had she continued posting as she had been. I see this as a good thing, and the expectation that people adhere to certain standards of grammar and spelling in their posts seems pretty reasonable to me.
Something else that I like about the forum is that we've never accepted "I'm only X years old--I shouldn't be held to the same standards as everyone else" as a valid excuse for anything.
Any thoughts on this?
OSC, if you happen into this thread, I'm especially interested to hear your thoughts on this. Do you see the attention to grammar and spelling exhibited by most people on this forum as being misplaced? Do you not feel that it adds value to the forum to have posts appear in a standard dialect, with that dialect's rules of grammar observed?
[ April 22, 2005, 04:31 PM: Message edited by: Noemon ]
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
Ya know, sometimes it is real hard to see when OSC is being tongue-in-cheek, since we can't see his face...
Posted by ludosti (Member # 1772) on :
In my opinion, it's misplaced for people to be completely anal-retentive about grammar and spelling online. These are people who are completely hung-up by the arrangement of the letters and cannot appreciate a thought/post if it has any errors in grammar and/or spelling.
I think using proper spelling and grammar (to the best of your ability) is wise. Not that each post needs be composed as if it was an article being published in a scholarly journal, but proper spelling and grammar makes it easier for people to understand what you're saying.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Ya know, sometimes it is real hard to see when OSC is being tongue-in-cheek, since we can't see his face...
Well, with any luck he'll post here and clarify his thoughts.
[ April 22, 2005, 03:39 PM: Message edited by: Noemon ]
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I really don't mind when people don't use perfect grammar or spelling in their posts, as long as it's understandable, but it's the unintelligable ones that I find unacceptable. I've had the same grammar and spelling skills since I was about 8 (when I got an unabridged dictionary for my birthday), and so I agree that anyone who wishes to communicate with us should make their best attempt to do so, regardless of age. I think most unintelligable posts could be clarified with just a little more time and effort on the part of the poster. We do have accepted abbreviations here, such as "IIRC", and we have "in-joke" misspellings, like "teh", and we do enjoy an occasional jokey 1334 post now and then. What I love about Hatrack, though, is that everyone who ends up staying really is serious about being respectful, and part of that is communicating clearly. Yay for Hatrack!
Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
I was an English Major, and I do some parttime copy editing occassionally, but I think we can afford to be a little more flexible online. It is, after all, a bit more like conversation than, say, correspondence.
Truthfully, though, I think email may have completely killed the art of letter-writing. That's a topic for another day.
Online communities are often multicultural, and we should keep this in mind. Since I have recently converted to Rabid Otaku Mama, I will share a recent example from an anime community that I belong to.
Most posts to the above-mentioned community are in English, some in Japanese and occassionaly other languages as people discover that other posters are native speakers of their first language.
So we prettymuch universally accept the bad conjugation of verbs or lack of subject-verb number agreement as somebody doing their best. Excessive use of l33t is discouraged, but people will translate for n00bs if asked. I know this because I'm old enough to know the value of asking and finding the answer is higher than the value of not looking foolish. I still sometimes foreget what the heck AFIK (or whatever) means.
The focus is on communicating effectively, so misspellings and typos are not really important, unless they open the sentence to interpretations other than the one the writer intended.
Ediiit: I steel no speel so good
[ April 22, 2005, 04:13 PM: Message edited by: Olivetta ]
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Oh, I definitely cut slack to people for whom English is a second language. Enormous amounts of slack actually.
Posted by Ryuko (Member # 5125) on :
quote: Ya know, sometimes it is real hard to see when OSC is being tongue-in-cheek, since we can't see his face...
Well, since his job is making himself understood in text, it should be a little bit easier. But then, of course, he's not going over his posts two and three times and then having other people go over them. (Except, apparently, us)
Posted by Portabello (Member # 7710) on :
quote:Well, since his job is making himself understood in text, it should be a little bit easier.
But posting here is not his job. If he had to put forth as much effort posting here as his professional writing, we would not see much of him. Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
Portabello, I sure hope THAT is true of most of us. Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
There's a big difference between having less-than-perfect grammar and spelling and lapsing into chatroom level language here. I do notice most of the mistakes people make in their posts because I edit stuff all day. But usually what they mean is perfectly clear, and there's certainly no sense in pointing out their mistakes.. I'll call people on their writing when their errors start obscuring what they're trying to say. I think I'm justified in doing that.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:There's a big difference between having less-than-perfect grammar and spelling and lapsing into chatroom level language here. I do notice most of the mistakes people make in their posts because I edit stuff all day. But usually what they mean is perfectly clear, and there's certainly no sense in pointing out their mistakes.. I'll call people on their writing when their errors start obscuring what they're trying to say. I think I'm justified in doing that.
See, that's almost exactly how I feel about it too. You expressed it much better than I did though, I think.
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
Thanks for not pointing out my double period. Posted by Papa Moose (Member # 1992) on :
I thought that was Boon....
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
Sorry, Boon.
Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
I think OSC is just trying to be encouraging of someone who is for whatever reason defensive. Though I'll feel bad for ne-man if he flashes his "license to misspell" around. And I don't see the use of "ne" as a grammar issue so much as a coolness thing.
I guess the weird thing is that ne appears in a different pronunciation and context in Ender's Game.
I am glad no one gets on my case for not always using perfect italicization, quote marks etc. or polices dangling prepositions. We all have our personal grammar boundaries. Or does the coining of "personal grammar boundaries" place me firmly in the pinhead category? <: )
[ April 22, 2005, 05:12 PM: Message edited by: mothertree ]
Posted by whiskysunrise (Member # 6819) on :
The difference between having a conversation in person and on line is if we are talking you don't know that I can't spell. I don't mind errors, but I think you need to put some effort into it so others can understand you.
What does IIRC mean and what is a 1334 post?
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
quote: But usually what they mean is perfectly clear, and there's certainly no sense in pointing out their mistakes..
And yet, we all know that there are folks that do this anyway. Yea, even here at Hatrack. I happen to think that THESE people are pinheads. On a slow computer, it's a pain in the arse to edit a post and often takes a long time, so I'm bugged when these said pinheads point out double periods and dangling participles with the expectation that you'll wade into your post and fix it.
Now some of us are our own worst grammar pinhead...and yes. That sentence didn't make much sense.
edit: What mothertree said.
[ April 22, 2005, 05:42 PM: Message edited by: Narnia ]
Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
You misspelled ass.
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
IIRC: If I recall correctly. 1337: Means "leet" and is kind of a geek/hacker shibboleth (although more of a joke than anything around here). If you speak 1337 then you're touting your superior knowledge of all things computers.
Posted by Verai (Member # 7507) on :
quote:IIRC: If I recall correctly. 1337: Means "leet" and is kind of a geek/hacker shibboleth (although more of a joke than anything around here). If you speak 1337 then you're touting your superior knowledge of all things computers.
I love you guys.
As to the topic, I skip it if it's too painful to read. Self-justification: I just don't give myself the patience to read something that the other person didn't take any patience to write.
Posted by maui babe (Member # 1894) on :
quote:As to the topic, I skip it if it's too painful to read. Self-justification: I just don't give myself the patience to read something that the other person didn't take any patience to write.
I'll second this. There are several posters here whose posts I almost never read because they're just not worth trying to decipher. An occasional misspelling or typo can be distracting, but is no big deal. But when there's no sentence or paragraph structure, punctuation or capitalization, it's not worth it to try to figure out what the poster's trying to say.
Posted by sndrake (Member # 4941) on :
I have to stop reading these kinds of threads.
I always end up with the same dang song stuck in my head for hours...
quote:Grammar got run over by a reindeer Walking home from our house Christmas eve.
OK, I'll get ready to go home and take a nap now. Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
I'll third it. I routinely ignore posts that are difficult to read.
Re the original question posed by Noemon - I don't give people much leeway for their age. No one can seriously tell me that a 15 year-old doesn't know how to use contractions. The problem with allowing people too much leeway with grammar and spelling (within reason, as we're all speaking) is that bad grammar and spelling seriously inhibits their ability to communicate with others on the board - which is the purpose for being on a forum in the first place, neh?
space opera
Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
I'm not sure how you got that stuck in your head, Stephen, but our Latin teacher had us translated into Latin and sing it, so I have bits of it in Latin in my head. cursicurit is pretty cool word, I must say.
Posted by whiskysunrise (Member # 6819) on :
Thanks advice for robots.
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
No problem. If I'm wrong about the 1337 in any way, you geeks feel free to correct me. Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
Sounds likely, though I have to say I'm really annoyed with the graffiti 2 system.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Why, mt? I like it much better than original Graffiti.
Posted by Mr.Funny (Member # 4467) on :
I totally agree with you, Noemon. And with Scott R saying that age doesn't matter. It doesn't! I mean, I'm only 16 and I started posting when I was 14 (I think). It shouldn't be an issue if people just spend a little more time composing their responses.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Are you really only 16? I'd assumed that you were older than that.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Perhaps OSC meant that it is OK to be casual here, not completely grammatically perfect all the time, because it is more of a conversation than a term paper.
That doesn't mean that all usage rules have to be denigrated or ignored, but that sometimes people here nitpick the little thing rather than deal with the bigger issues.
That being said, I know I make a lot of mistakes....between learning to type and poor spelling skills I am a bit off a lot of the time. However, I do try to correct them if I see them, depending on the thread that I posted in. If it is just fluff, then I don't care most of the time, but if it is on a serious topic then I try to be fairly clear.
If something hurts to read it, I usually skip it.
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
I guess I have nothing original to add here, but I'll toss in my pair of pennies anyway.
Studying English grammar is kind of a hobby of mine, so I like to think I do a pretty good job with it most of the time. Sometimes I'll switch to a more casual slang for humorous purposes, but most of the time my dialect is pretty standard. I don't see how using mostly correct grammar would take all that much effort for anyone that reads books regularly.
That said, I don't have much patience for "grammar Nazis", as the unfortunate Internet term has it. This forum is a pretty casual place. Sometimes we have very serious discussions, and the level of discourse is always higher than on most forums because of the nature of the forum itself. But when you get down to it, it's still just conversation. We're not writing a tome for scholars here. We're just chatting. If we could, we'd get together in the same room and do the same thing we already do, but with speech. It's just conversation. So nitpicking about things like the use of "less" where "fewer" is needed, or the number of periods in an ellipsis, or any of a thousand other minor details, is out of place.
On the other hand, if your post needs a secret decoder ring to read, I'm not going to bother. I don't have time to sit here and crack your code because you're too lazy to spell out "anyone" or insert a paragraph break here and there.
quote:u really don't think ppl would actualy dot hat about teh 9/11 thing, if they had to change movie scenes b4 it?
I see things like that, and I stop reading. I don't care what else follows. It's not that I think the person that wrote it is stupid. Intelligence has nothing to do with it. For all I know, there might have been something really insightful and wise buried in that post. But damned if I'll ever get to it, because I can't read this. If I put some effort into it, I could figure it out. But if the writer couldn't be bothered to put in the effort to be comprehensible in the first place, then I'm just going to assume that there's nothing in there that I need to read. If it wasn't worth the time to them, it's not worth the time to me.
Age is also never an excuse. I don't care if you're fourteen years old. I was fourteen once myself, and my grammar was just fine, thank you. No one expects you to be able to explain what a gerund is or what the rule is for using "who" and "whom", but the bottom line is that if you're old enough to read our conversations and want to join them, then you're old enough to have a basic grasp of grammar that should let you make posts that are not absolutely impenetrable.
I make exceptions to all that for those to whom English is not a native language. I've studied many foreign languages, and I know what it's like wanting to communicate with people and only being able to in a rough fashion with a great deal of effort. As long as I can tell they're trying, I'm willing to cut them some slack.
[/pompous windbag mode]
Posted by Peter (Member # 4373) on :
I, being only 17, have always tried to do my best with the spelling and grammar part of the posts. I always hate it when people use their age as an excuse as to why they should be given some slack. This forum, as far as I'm concerned is filled with the best minds I have ever come across and it only makes sense that there would be at least a little effort to make the post readable.
Wouldn't it be embarassing if there was a huge error in this post? Like I said, I try for spelling and grammar, making sense comes second.
Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
rivka, did you use the original graffiti very much? I am continually getting my Is, Ts, and Vs wrong. Which makes it pretty hard to write my name.
Posted by Orson Scott Card (Member # 209) on :
You already heard my feelings about this, and quoted them. Only pinheads get upset about informality online.
We make typos. Sometimes they're funny and we get teased about them. But this is conversation, NOT formal essay writing.
Because the standards are high here people naturally try to look respectable. That's a good thing, but one requiring neither enforcement nor encouragement.
At the same time, people here are (or should be) tolerant of those whose spelling skills are not well-developed, those for whom English is a second language, or those whose native English is a dialect or subset of English with different rules. From what I've seen, that tolerance is pretty well-developed and widespread, and I appreciate it. I'd hate to have anyone think that their lack of mastery of grammar rules disqualified them from taking part as full members of this community.
Especially since I generally find that the people who are most fussy about grammar rules are usually the very ones who have no idea what they're talking about - the ones who have embraced pinheaded, invented "rules" like not ending sentences with prepositions, etc. I've been a copy editor - and a very good one. I see EVERY grammar mistake. And I invariably find them in the writings of people who presume to criticize the grammar of others.
NOBODY speaks or writes without error. You get into a sentence and forgot how you began, so you end it differently (and ungrammatically). So what? In conversation, we forgive things like that all the time. All I was saying was, online postings are treated like a branch of oral conversation - we are informal. We tolerate error as long as sense is clear and the intention is communication.
Let none feel unwelcome because they do not measure up to some arbitrary ruleset on formal language usage! EVERYBODY speaks the grammar of their own dialect PERFECTLY. (And yes, I am deliberately using the plural possessive THEIR with the formerly singular but now felt-as-plural "everybody" because it's more convenient and is long established in common usage.)
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
quote: Because the standards are high here people naturally try to look respectable. That's a good thing, but one requiring neither enforcement nor encouragement.
I am not so sure about this. I agree that it doesn't need enforcement, to be sure, but I try to encourage good writing skills, and I try to practice them on my own as well.
Then again, it isn't my board......
However, I don't freak out if I see a typo (my most common mistake, although not my only one to be sure) or a misspelled word or three.
I had a very similar conversation with a person here, about these thread being a weird hybrid of conversations and essays. He was offended that I would leave and go to bed without concluding the "conversation", but my point was that this type of board is an open conversation that I could come back to in the morning when I was ready to continue.
I think that the fact that most of us ignore posts that are too poorly written does a lot of the "enforcing" for us, usually.
[ April 22, 2005, 11:59 PM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
I think Uncle Orson would've made a good linguist.
I can't recall anyone ever getting upset about informality on Hatrack. I think we all understand that this is more of a conversation than a dissertation. But even in conversation, there are rules and guidelines that one should consider if one wishes to be heard and understood. It would be lame to say, "I'm only fifteen, so I shouldn't be expected not to mumble," just as it is lame to say (at least in my opinion), "I'm only fifteen, so I shouldn't be expected to spell out words."
And honestly, I think Hatrackers are very good about not being uptight grammar nazis. I'm occasionally an uptight grammar nazi myself, but I try to relax and just enjoy everyone's company and conversation. Like Scott said, it's impossible to turn off the copyeditor inside you, but at least I can usually resist the impulse to edit everyone's posts, because that just doesn't help anything. Having your grammatical shortcomings pointed out usually just makes you insecure and resentful, so it does more harm than good.
If a community values clear and understandable communication, then its members will strive for it. In my experience, Hatrackers have been very good about both communicating well and politely helping people to communicate better if there is a problem.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I dont gat whar yuz sain thare, dude.
Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
quote:Let none feel unwelcome because they do not measure up to some arbitrary ruleset on formal language usage! EVERYBODY speaks the grammar of their own dialect PERFECTLY. (And yes, I am deliberately using the plural possessive THEIR with the formerly singular but now felt-as-plural "everybody" because it's more convenient and is long established in common usage.)
What, "their" isn't a gender neutral singular possessive in that statement? <ducking and running>
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
If a poster doesn't care to make their post legible, then I don't care to read it.
Nitpicky issues I don't care so much about, other than to poke fun at people who are being nitpicky - normally through pointing out their own errors.
It's the people who feel the need to abbreviate every word that bug me, i.e. b4-before, l8r-later, ne-any, ur-you are, y-why, u-you, etc...
Wood hit bee awl rite two hues uh send ants width alm host awl homonyms? No, it'd drive people crazy.
I remember a while back really getting on someone's case about this - maybe two years ago. I don't even know if that person is still around, but the problem ended up being that the poster wasn't the best typist and was rushing. Easily solved after the problem was identified, and the posts became readable.
If I remember, the person was making some great points, too, but they were lost in the woods of their misstyping.
Anyway, that's my $0.03 (adjusted for inflation).
Posted by Speed (Member # 5162) on :
This thread is:
2 cute +2 B _______ 4 gotten
Oh, and:
YYUR YYUB ICUR YY4ME
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"And I invariably find them in the writings of people who presume to criticize the grammar of others."
This is, I believe, a codified rule of Internet debate. Anyone who posts to correct the grammar of someone else is required to have at least error in the body of his or her own post.
Posted by Speed (Member # 5162) on :
quote: Anyone who posts to correct the grammar of someone else is required to have at least error in the body of his or her own post.
You mean at least one error? Geez, how sum of U peepl get on here is mystere. Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
It's a LAW, man. Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
There are plenty of people here who have English as a second or third language, abd I dont' usually see anyone giving them a hard time. I know that their English is a lot better than my French or Spanish (which I don't understand at all) would be these days, so even if their posts are hard to understand I make the effort to read them.
However, there are some people here who write worse than the ESL people, and don't have the same excuse to justify it. I don't usually bother with them at all.
I think Scott made it clear that the "Pinheads" aren't the people who care about being understood (I hope so, anyway... ), but rather the people who seem to have nothing better to do than dissect others posts looking for grammar mistakes.
Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
Tom and OSc are right, of course. I expect to get teased here when I throw out some typo or grammatical howler. But correcting people's grammar in a condescending manner is teh suck.
There was this really great writer I knew on an online writing workshop, who tended to get Editor's choice Awards for her short stories and grew a long list of publishing credits in a very short time. Then, this new woman joined the group, and made a game out of sniping at "grammatical errors" that were really stylistic choices. I mean, in striving for a conversational tone for a particular story, she'd have the occassional sentence fragment or preposition at the end of a sentence. This woman even jumped on her for using contractions in fiction (outside of dialogue).
It was counter-productive, because instead of making her look smart and this other writer look bad, she just made herself look like a raving beyotch.
Which she was.
Stuff like that says more about the finger-pointer than the, erm, pointee, and most of it just ain't nice!
Grammar Nazis, you may now broil the above post, presented for your delectation. Nyah.
[ April 23, 2005, 11:30 AM: Message edited by: Olivetta ]
Posted by papercrane (Member # 7877) on :
Though I can't claim any experience in this particular forum, I've found that the healthiest and most interesting message boards strive to be understandable. Forcing others to read through netspeak, 13375p33k or blatantly careless capitalization simply because you can't be bothered to write properly is disrespectful--even offensive.
On the other hand, posting simply to call someone out on grammar (particularly on informal forums, or in cases in which the offender has a legitimate reason for not having perfect grammar) is also often uncivil and insulting.
As for the age-as-an-excuse: well, to me that's always been rather flimsy. Then again, for about half my life I've been an Annoying Nerd Who Actually Likes English and Math, Go Figure. Given that half my life is only about eight years, though... At any rate, I believe that the least you could do when unsure as to spelling etc. is run your post through Microsoft Word. Yes, it's often idiotic in its suggestions, but it is better than nothing.
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
Where is the line between informality and unreadability? We're fine with a few grammatical errors and spelling mistakes, sentence fragments, and run-on sentences, generally. I happen to use elipses pretty regularly when posting, something I wouldn't do when writing a formal paper. But there really does come a point when trying to read someone's post verges on cryptography. Maybe it's just subjective, I don't know.
Hey, papercrane, welcome to Hatrack. Do you like origami?
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
(The "music" thread is her introduction. )
Posted by papercrane (Member # 7877) on :
Oh, I wasn't referring to the occasional typo, but rather posts of the sort used as examples early on in the thread.
Yes, I went through an origami/kirigami phase for a couple years; now, the only thing I can remember how to do is a paper crane. The name, and variations thereof, sort of stuck.
As ketchupqueen said--I did sort of post 'Music' as an intro. There isn't much else about me; I like sketching, writing, reading sci-fi/fantasy, and consuming coffee. Whatever else there is can probably be found out at my art place, http://paperdragoness.deviantart.com Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
quote: i could go on for days but im not going to. Im just fifteen so if ne one reads this and says to themself "this guy has bad grammer," or "this guy makes no sense," im fifteen and you know what that means.
OK, I'm 15 (on May 16th), and anyone who'se read me knows that even though I have an immense amount of typos and I always get confused and spell "dimention" and "equasion", I can read and write. I punctuate and use apostrophes, I construct arguments and speak with relative coherence.
I'm in Junior High, and not even in an English-speaking country. Basically, all you need is the little effort of pressing "Shift" when needed, reading books to improve your style of language, and putting apostrophes here and there. If you want to show your new anti-apostrophe revolution because you believe they are redundant - while only being an excuse for laziness - at least spell "Im", and don't spell "i'm" occasionally by accident. Be somwhat consistent, and work on it (as I am).
quote: don't worry..as long as u know the basis, ur ok.it's just extra stuff i put sincei ype wut my mind thinks forgetting that i'm typing stuff that may seem absurd...anyway i'im only in junior high. we're not supposed to make sense
You may only b in Junior High, as I am too, but I strive to make sense, and I'd rather be taken for a geejy genius than an incoherent idiot, as the writing might suggest.
quote: Oh, I definitely cut slack to people for whom English is a second language. Enormous amounts of slack actually.
I'm bilingual, so that poses troubl. Either you believe that the languages get cut-down because I put in foreign phrases and such, or you think of me as a more linguistic person, thus being stricter. Of course, this is irrelevant whn my father teaches English, and therefore it gives me no excuse. But I think that I need to take the responsibility for my actions in these cases. It's my language that eventually represents me. You can tell what a person is saying with the vocabulary. If it's extensive and subtle, you can tell by thought. If it's rather shallow and overly-slanged when it should not be, you can also tell something about the person's attitude towards publicity.
quote: There's a big difference between having less-than-perfect grammar and spelling and lapsing into chatroom level language here.
Absolutely! Sid Meier, for instance, sometimes forgets an apostrophe or misplaces a comma - I do that too. I get sometimes 3 or 4 typos a message, and edit it (or not), nothing's wrong with missing something (I just missed an "s" in "missing", so I corrected it). But when you descend to the level of incoherent thoughts you can say something about the message's importance to that person. "You shouldn't ever write precisely in the way you speak", said my father. My English teacher commented that "it's not a very good idea to write the way you speak, because you get a mess of a writing". I agree, and primarily becaues I had good spelling and grammar, but no coherence. I would've written an assignment with correct punctuation and proper paragraphing, and I'd never forget an apostrophy or misspell a word, but the message would make no sense whatsoever. So I improved and ended up the way I am.
quote: You misspelled ass.
"Arse" is the proper way of spelling it! The fact that you, Americans were unabl to know the difference between "arse" (the bum) and "ass" (a donkey) - and thus made "ass" popular in the incorrect sense, does not make "arse" the improper way of spelling it. You Americans amaze me sometimes with your spelling...
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quote: As to the topic, I skip it if it's too painful to read. Self-justification: I just don't give myself the patience to read something that the other person didn't take any patience to write.
I'll second this. There are several posters here whose posts I almost never read because they're just not worth trying to decipher. An occasional misspelling or typo can be distracting, but is no big deal. But when there's no sentence or paragraph structure, punctuation or capitalization, it's not worth it to try to figure out what the poster's trying to say.
And I third this. As one person said on the "The Internet Makes You Stupid" thread: "If someone writes me 'how r u' on IM, it's one thing. But if they write that way on a forum or e-mail I simply reply 'am I not worth a bit of energy to you, that you should write without any pretence of caring about proper spelling, relatively correct grammar and punctuation?', which I believe is the right move."
quote: I'll third it.
Sorry, I fourth the original quote.
quote: No one can seriously tell me that a 15 year-old doesn't know how to use contractions.
"He don't like that girl", if you want to think of it technically. But you're basically right! No one should have the right - especially on a forum, which is the way we communicate here - to slop about. Go to a place where that's the norm, or improve!
quote: It shouldn't be an issue if people just spend a little more time composing their responses.
Our point exactly.
quote: I don't see how using mostly correct grammar would take all that much effort for anyone that reads books regularly.
Books are the key to speaking and writing well. If I hadn't read books, I'd never be able to be accepted here as one of the circle (even if it's the outer one).
quote: If it wasn't worth the time to them, it's not worth the time to me.
Great wording, may I use it in the future?
quote: Age is also never an excuse. I don't care if you're fourteen years old. I was fourteen once myself, and my grammar was just fine, thank you. No one expects you to be able to explain what a gerund is or what the rule is for using "who" and "whom", but the bottom line is that if you're old enough to read our conversations and want to join them, then you're old enough to have a basic grasp of grammar that should let you make posts that are not absolutely impenetrable.
I am 14 and write coherently. I never used my age as an excuse for my writing structure; I barely even used my bi-linguality for that, I only used it to excuse my weird phrases originating in ancient Syriac.
quote: Wouldn't it be embarassing if there was a huge error in this post?
As I once said, even at age 5 I spelled with rough punctuation. If I didn't, I'd look like an idiot! I knew that capitals begin sentences and names, more so - my father (who let me write in his e-mails) knew that I knew.
quote: I'd hate to have anyone think that their lack of mastery of grammar rules disqualified them from taking part as full members of this community.
Only if it's the community of book editors. Since it's not, I second that!
quote: I generally find that the people who are most fussy about grammar rules are usually the very ones who have no idea what they're talking about - the ones who have embraced pinheaded, invented "rules" like not ending sentences with prepositions...
Proof: "Whom would you like to give this book to?"
quote: We tolerate error as long as sense is clear and the intention is communication.
Again, you should never write quite the way you speak. That's not to say that informality is not welcome, but rather that you maintain some form of coherence, and word your clauses in a way that incorporates all the tones, facial expressions and visual elements of the same clause as it would have been said orally in a dialogue.
quote: And yes, I am deliberately using the plural possessive THEIR with the formerly singular but now felt-as-plural "everybody" because it's more convenient and is long established in common usage.
Now, that is proper colloquialism!
quote: I am not so sure about this. I agree that it doesn't need enforcement, to be sure, but I try to encourage good writing skills, and I try to practice them on my own as well.
This isn't the police, but encouraging someon to improve skills gently but poisily (word?) is something that should be done. Delicately, unless noted otherwise, but poisily.
quote: I dont gat whar yuz sain thare, dude.
Drop the comma, drop the full stop.
quote: Annoying Nerd Who Actually Likes English and Math
"Who" needs not be capitalised . Then again, my titles are no better, and when I'm afraid of grammar, I just write in archaic style I know is correct and uncolloquial. (in? non? de? mis? dis? What's the right prefix?)
---
I just reinstalled Windows, so I didn't scan this message with a spell checker (which is what I do with longer messages). Please excuse my typos and mistakes, including grammatical ones and incoherent messages. Yes, I like verbose crap when I'm saying nothing new. But it's been a while since my last long post (Auschwitz and Genocide).
JH
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
To me it's not about grammar or spelling so much as attempting to be somewhat closer to what we are accustomed to reading in books as opposed to what we see in text messaging on cell phones. Like paragraphs and punctuation and writing the whole word out (even if it's misspelled). It's not a matter of being a nazi about it...it's about seeking clarity in communication. Okay, so for some people it IS about being a nazi. But mostly on Hatrack, I think we're just trying to aim for communication. And as Noemon said, sometimes it's so thick as to be inpenetrable. Attempting to decrease the opacity isn't a bad thing, IMO.
c u L8r! Posted by Der Grammatikfuehrer (Member # 5015) on :
Emperor Jonotine: "The dark side of the language is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be . . . unnatural."
Anakin Howard: "Is it possible to learn this power?"
Emperor Jonotine: "Not from an English teacher."
Join with me, and together we can rule the galaxy as Jonathon and Jonathan! As soon as I teach you the truth about grammar, that is.
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
quote: Join with me, and together we can rule the galaxy as Jonathon and Jonathan!
And what is the procedure necessary? I know Hebrew grammar very well, and a bit of Arabic grammar (though we never completed all the "pillars" of the verbe-tenses, as I call them; I know the general concept through my understanding of Semitic grammar I did using Hebrew. Oh, and a bit of 3rd-5th century Babylonian Aramaic too), and a tiny bit of Latin. My English state is known here.
Does that help?
JH
P.S. - "What're you talking about, Jonny?" - "Oh, you know, me and my nonsense - sorry - my nonsense and I."
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
Procedure? Well, I guess I teach you all the deep, dark secrets of the English language. At some point you might be inducted into the Secret Fraternal Order of Linguists. World domination will soon follow.
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
On the other hand, I enjoy having a community of people with whom I can interact on a high enough level of nerdness to make grammar teasing funny. I don't get that in my everyday life.
[ April 30, 2005, 10:42 PM: Message edited by: Annie ]
Posted by Talison (Member # 7935) on :
I moderate a chat board mostly populated by children ranging from 12 to 17 and a very small number can be bothered with using actual words as opposed to "chat speak". Watching, and talking with them for over a year has taught me many things, some more positive then others (I am notoriously over-fond of "lol"). Most importantly chat speak, slang, and "l33t" can be fun and faster to read and type but they shouldn't be used to the point that you can no longer make yourself understood. I cannot count the number of times I've had to poll other staff members to figure out what someone was trying to say to me. And even on a few occasions had to tell someone that I couldn't understand what he or she was trying to say, and could they ask an older family member to help?
Thankfully those are extreme examples and I generally only have to guess at a word or two from context. Now with that said I must also confess that while generally only in times of frantic scrambling to control the boards or extreme tiredness I have been known to post messages that even I couldn’t read
To sum up that ramble, I LIKE reading posts written with correct grammar and spelling, even if I am not capable of it myself (perfection is something to strive for after all). But I will also overlook almost all errors, as I can probably remember a time where I was guilty myself
This is one of the topics that finally made me register Posted by Lupus (Member # 6516) on :
I'm not bothered by the type of grammar and spelling mistakes that come with being young or having english as a second language. However, I do find "chatroom speak" to be annoying. In that case, it is not that the person is not capable of speaking correctly, they are simply being lazy (or trying to be "cool"). When you are posting to a message board, you don't have to be grammatically perfect, but you should aim to be understandable.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
I'm not bothered by most online mistakes -- rare indeed is the post I make myself that isn't immediately edited for typo repair -- but I do appreciate an attempt at understandable language.
However, I will point out mistakes that are 1) funny, 2) consistently made, as a helpful (but not carping) gesture, and 3) inaccurate, as in webpage addresses, proper names, etc. I would want my stuff pointed out to me in the same instances, so...
I also notice misspellings and poor grammar much more in heated discussions, especially when the person tripping over the language is presenting a bigoted or irrational position. It makes their argument seem that much easier to dismiss, and sometimes that might mean missing some valid points hidden in the mess.
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You misspelled ass.
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