So twinky lent his Firefly DVD to me, and I got it in the mail today. It sat on my desk for about ten irrisitible minutes befofe I just couldn't help watching the first episode.
And I love it. It's brilliant! The characters were interesting, the plot detailed enough to prevent total prediction. There was nothing really wrong with it, nothing that grated, nothing. That is so rare these days. I think its fabulous. Now I just have to restrain from watching it all this weekend instead of writing the essay that was due today.
This is a thread to appreciate Firefly, for being so great and twinky for being so generous (and great too!)
(and yes, twinky, you may have your DVD back on the 21st. I can guarantee I'll be done before then!)
THANK YOU TWINKY!
[ March 24, 2005, 05:49 PM: Message edited by: Teshi ]
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
::steeples fingers::
Eeexcelent.
Seriously, Teshi, I knew that you'd love it--how could you not really.
I hooked a co-worker of mine on it the other day. Just popped it into my computer and watched the first half of Serenity with him over our lunch hour. He never had a chance.
Anybody know when they're going to start promoting the movie? I'd expected a preview to be released by now at the very least.
Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
I think I'm going to be the last Hatracker to finally watch Firefly. I'm not saying I'll never watch it. It's just one of those things that everyone is so excited about, I have to be a drip. Like back in the 80's when everyone was watching Mork and Mindy and we didn't have a working TV. I had to pretend I liked it that way.
Okay, I'm not getting what the second great thing is here.
[ March 24, 2005, 06:04 PM: Message edited by: mothertree ]
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
I'm so very glad you're enjoying it.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Mothertree, I assume that it's probably Twinky. Although he isn't really a thing per se.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
The second great thing is twinky for sending me the series!
Edit: And you're right, Noemon. But the thread titles can only be a limited length so I had to drop a few words.
Edit#2: mothertree edited her post! Now I have to edit mine!
[ March 24, 2005, 07:46 PM: Message edited by: Teshi ]
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
Shiny! Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Episode #2 down!
Nothing like a psycho criminal arch nemesis to carry a plot along .
Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
But I edited my post at 6 some and you first posted at 7 some. Or was this one of those deals where you pull up a topic and go to eat dinner, and then you come back and reply but life has moved on? I hate that. Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Or I may be going crazy.
Edit: I think that's most likely.
[ March 24, 2005, 10:42 PM: Message edited by: Teshi ]
Posted by Astaril (Member # 7440) on :
Firefly is the best TV series ever. And I don't even like or watch TV. Welcome to the cult, Teshi. Endless internal quoting will take over your brain shortly.
Dangit. Now the theme song's in my head again. It takes days to go away...
Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
Mine is an evil laugh.
Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
I've never seen an episode of Firefly...
But I'll gladly appreciate twinky. Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Mothertree, I'll race you to last spot! Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
I'm in the running for the last spot as well. I might see it at some point, but I'm in no rush. Besides, I can't afford another TV-based addiction right now.
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
Generosity is the mark of a great man.
*stabs*
I guess Twinky is just a good man.
*stabs*
Well, he's alright....
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
I'm in the running as well.
When I get all the way through SG-1, I'll see about Firefly -- maybe. *shrug*
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
So, Teshi, what did you think of Bushwacked?
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Haven't watched that one yet. I'm rationing them (I know I know)! Also, I have to complete an essay by Sunday and if I procrastinate any longer I'm going to end up loosing six marks instead of four and Politics is presently my highest real-course mark and I don't want to lose it.
*restrains*
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Wow, I'm impressed! I don't know that I'd have the self control for that.
If it's any consolation, I consider Bushwacked to be one of the two weakest episodes of the season. Still quite good, and still well worth watching (and there is one sequence in particular that I love), but not as good as most of the other episodes.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
I'll keep that in mind.
Actually, my self control is odd. I can NOT do things, but I cannot make myself DO things .
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I'm actually pretty curious to read your thoughts on each episode as you go along, if you'd be interested in posting them.
Posted by Astaril (Member # 7440) on :
I work that way too. It's very annoying. And people say "Just tell yourself not to procrastinate then!" But it doesn't go like that.
And you know, I'm starting to wonder if you're actually me in disguise, Teshi. This whole procrastination thing, the new addiction to Firefly, you play the piccolo and know who Johan de Meij is... *casts suspicious looks*
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
I actually play the flute (among other things). I just ended up being piccolo because no one else wanted to do it. I was never really any good.
Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
The great thing about that is nobody expects competence on the picilo.
*ducks*
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
As requested by Noemon. I promise the others won't be this long, this is just my reaction to the show as a whole having seen the first episode:
1. "Serenity"
The Firefly sales pitch to the executives: “I’ve got this great idea for a TV show: think Wild West, only in space.”
This is clearly what the original Firefly brilliant idea was; the music ( ) and costumes (Simon’s waistcoat, most obviously, and Mal’s low slung gun belt) give it away. In the first episode at least, even the dusty planets give it that “out west” feel. Even the names give off the smell of sand: Jayne, River, Mal, Wash etc. The Wild West influence was the first thing I saw.
The other thing ‘Firefly’ reminds me of is ‘Blake’s Seven’, which, for those who do not know, is an old British SF show with a similar idea: criminals in a space ship constantly on the run from a dominant autocratic government, led by an ex-freedom fighter. I happen to really like ‘Blake’s Seven’, and ‘Firefly’, although clearly owing a lot to Roj Blake and his motley crew’s fruitless battle against the Federation, is the next step-up, and I don’t just mean in technology.
I think what makes Firefly special besides the Wild West thing (or perhaps as a result of) is the fact that it’s not clean and spiffy. SF television has endured years of top-notch ships, gleaming consoles and flashing lights. Firefly, with its nitty-gritty worry of running out of fuel, falling apart and re-rigged technology, low tech/high tech societies with plenty of ethnic influences and blood-and-guts gore (as opposed to the almost completely bloodless horror of Star Trek, for example) is totally refreshing.
Firefly has what Enterprise should have had. People have seen enough of good governments and clean pressed uniforms, regulations and wars with advanced and polished aliens who live in shiny metal just-off-the-shelf spaceships. Firefly, of course, turns everything on its head. The evil Alliance are the ones in the shiny ships. Our heroes are the underdogs in the falling-apart ship, on the run, constantly out-numbered. Heck, they don’t even have laser weapons, just good ol’ bullets.
I think that because the creators and designers didn’t have to worry about making up alien cultures, they could go all out on the human society. As a result, we actually get humans with culture; the Chinese (?) influence is a nice touch to the Wild West that brings it “up to date” as it were.
The characters although being a tiny bit stereotypical, manage to avoid it. It’s nice to have the most actiony female not married to the most actiony male. The characters make me want to have useful talents. However, there did manage to be enough non-techies or medics to make me feel at least a little better about myself (I’m what Stargate calls a “socio-political nerd”).
The only thing that didn’t feel totally real was River’s genius. Sure, she’s a little messed up and can recognise the ship she’s on from the hospital room, but translating ‘Mal’ to ‘bad’ shows only a good education to me, and not genius as it was probably intended. I don’t know- that’s all I got from this episode.
Plot-wise, although I could predict a little of what was going to happen (the passengers on the ship were all on the cover but one ) there were enough things going on that were unexpected to, not keep me guessing, but keep more utterly involved. I had to close my door because I kept giggling and exclaiming and people would think I was a little odd, if they don’t already.
This show could have gone a long, long way. It’s a total shame that it didn’t. I only wonder (and this is only baseless speculation) if the television network people were wary of making too much of a big deal out of it because of its subversion of the government themes? Don’t eat me, I’m only speculating!
[ March 25, 2005, 02:35 PM: Message edited by: Teshi ]
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Gah.
Am I the last bastion against the Dukes in Hazardous Spaaaaace?
-Trevor
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
That was fun to read--can't wait for the others.
I've heard of Blake's 7, but I've never actually seen it. I'll have to see if Netflix has it available on DVD.
I feel like the show was very much an intentional reaction and rebuttal to the Star Trek franchise, and other similarly "shiny futured" shows. In Star Trek there are sex object characters, but they never actually have sex. The first glimpse we see of Inara is her plying her trade. I can't recall ever seeing anyone go to the bathroom on a Trek series, or even heading in the general direction of a toilet. In Serenity, an early shot shows Mal finishing up and folding the urnial back into the wall in his quarters. In Trek (and, to be fair, in most heroic TV shows), the plot is arranged so that the hero gets to keep his hands clean--the villain dies without any action on the hero's part, or even in spite of the hero's attempts to save them. In Firefly Mal is perfectly willing to kill when necessary, and isn't going to agonize over it after the deed is done. There is no sound in space in Firefly. I'm sure there are other examples of the sort of thing I'm thinking about, but this post is getting too long as it is.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
quote: There is no sound in space in Firefly.
I didn't notice this yet but .
quote: but this post is getting too long as it is.
Compared to mine it's not .
[ March 25, 2005, 02:53 PM: Message edited by: Teshi ]
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Yeah, after I clicked "Add Reply" I was surprised at how short my post actually was. I think that the fact that work kept interrupting me, keeping me from just typing it in a single go made it seem longer than it was.
Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
I only saw about 5 minutes of the new Battleship Galactica, but I saw some space scenes that seemed heavily influenced by Firefly. There was no sound, and it was made to look like it was filmed with a hand-held camera, complete with zoom.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
One of the drawbacks to Battlestar Galactica - a major plot theme is the paranoia and suspicion.
Which just gets tedious after a while.
-Trevor
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Porter, there are definitely some stylistic similarities between the two shows, probably due in great part to a lot of the same people working on both shows. Others will undoubtedly be able to tell you more about it--it's something I'm only peripherally aware of.
Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
Netflix doesn't seem to have Blake's Seven.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Wouldn't surprise me - it was a good series, but an old BBC production which means it probably wouldn't be listed on a "current titles" sort of service.
Yeah, I should have specified. It's pretty old and doubly obscure. My brother got them through downloads, because it's the only way...
Edit: And by old, I mean a lot cheesy in places. But still good. "Classic" is term, I believe.
[ March 25, 2005, 05:52 PM: Message edited by: Teshi ]
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
2. “Train Job”
This episode begins with what is a familiar SF scene; the smoky bar. Only this time, the heroes are playing Chinese Checkers, drinking out of what looks like filthy glasses and looking perfectly at home. They then proceed to start a Wild West-style bar fight (“an honest brawl between folk”).
This kind of sums up the only thing that bothers me, or rather my more gentle side; to Mal, it’s not even about honour or self-defence, it’s about picking a fight. I know, I know, it’s his character, but he needs a good smack upside the head.
Other than that, I really liked this episode. It did a great job of setting up the evil criminal nemesis and his short-lived Kronk-style sidekick in a totally modern take on a traditional theme. The moral problem was a great addition, as was the solution.
Also: Why do evil people invariably have accents? I have an accent! We’re not all bad, you know. Do we sound more evil or something?
The Alliance’s Soviet theme is kind of cool. Very bureaucratically evil
My favourite line from this episode: “Sir. I think you have a problem with your brain being missing” and “whatever happens remember I love you” (but it’s better in context) and “did he just go crazy and fall asleep?”
The characters were more developed in this, especially Jayne, Inara and Book (the Shepherd?). River’s plot was advanced slightly, although not in a direction I really loved-it’s a little cliché, the poetry-affliction, but I’m keeping an open mind on her. I hope for great things. So far, my favourite character is Simon. He reminds me of me in this situation: “Oh! Crime! Huh.”
One extra question: How do the people on the train not notice that a massive ship is flying above them?
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
You saw the inside of the train. Did the visibility from the windows look good to you? Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
You're telling me that ship is dead silent?
EDIT: I checked and it is! Wow. I wish they made cars that silent.
Hmph. Seems a bit convenient.
[ March 25, 2005, 09:58 PM: Message edited by: Teshi ]
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
No, but the train certainly seemed plenty noisy. If I was flying in a plane, for instance, and there was another plane flying above mine, I bet I wouldn't notice.
I acutally never thought of either of those things when I was watching the episode.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Betcha didn't watch it twice in a row like I did, though. First time for fun, second time for analysis .
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
No, you're right, I didn't. I've seen it maybe five times total (once on TV and then a bunch of times when I was introducing people to the DVDs), and I only ever watch it for fun. Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
I'll try not to ruin it for you.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
Thank you. Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Uh oh. I'll take that as a "Don't be too analytical, Teshi, or too picky, because I won't appreciate it."
I seriously will be careful with what I say. I just get so used to analyse, analyse, analyse...
EDIT: I KNEW IT! River is SO psychic.
[ March 25, 2005, 10:27 PM: Message edited by: Teshi ]
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
Don't censor yourself on my account, silly. If I don't want to read what you write in this thread because it might affect my enjoyment of the episodes, it's not like I'm under any obligation to read it.
I just meant that if we ever discuss the series in person, I probably won't be interested in helping you pick nits. Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Don't worry. I'm a writer, not a speaker. Verbal discussion is limited to: "I love that bit!" and quotes, if you're lucky.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
You'd better not be watching while posting. *stern look*
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
3. "The really scary and gory one!" aka "Bushwacked".
This one was terrifying! I had to look away a lot!
Noemon, you said you didn't like this one so much... I don't know. It was certainly more grusome that I like, and less character-based, but nevertheless gripping. If this is the worst it can get, then it's doing pretty well!
My only dispute might be that at one point there were three or four different "tense moments" going on silmultaeously. That was a bit over the top.
I have to say the highlight for me was the interviews with the crew. They were pure gold, especially Zoe and Wash . My favourite quote from this episode would be that scene as a whole.
My comment above about River was during the episode. I guessed from the beginning that the tests were some kind of supernatural-power inducement, now I'm 95% sure... of course it could be total coincidence... I love it though, that's what I was hoping for, but I didn't want to comment because I might have been wrong (like I was about the train and the windows ).
Anyway. Very scary. Will not be watching this one twice!
[ March 25, 2005, 10:56 PM: Message edited by: Teshi ]
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
4. "Shinda... I mean Shindig"
UM.
I LOVE THIS SHOW SO MUCH!
Am I in the wrong thread?
ps. I see what you mean, Noemon. Compared to the norm, #3 was nothing.
pps. Don't worry twinky. I do not need to analyse this one. There's nothing to analyse. It was splendid .
Favourite quote: Every. Line. Was. Brilliant.
Edit: River is living up to my expectations. This is looking good!
[ March 25, 2005, 11:53 PM: Message edited by: Teshi ]
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
quote:If it's any consolation, I consider Bushwacked to be one of the two weakest episodes of the season. Still quite good, and still well worth watching (and there is one sequence in particular that I love), but not as good as most of the other episodes.
What do you think is the other weak one? I'm going to hazard a guess and say "Safe" but I'm not sure anyone else feels my boredom with that episode.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Safe is weaker than most of them, but stronger (I think) than either Bushwacked or The Message. I go back and forth sometimes on which episode is my least favorite, but it's usually The Message.
Teshi, yeah, wasn't that interrogation sequence great? Best thing in the episode, especially, as you said, the Zoe/Wash part.
I can't tell you how much fun I'm having vicariously watching the show for the first time again through your eyes. I'm interested in hearing as much analysis as you feel like writing. You're not going to hurt my feelings by taking it apart. I'd wondered about the crew of the train's complete obliviousness to the huge ship flying directly above it. I hadn't been bothered by the sound aspect so much, due to the fact that the train was making all sorts of noise itself (there are other episodes, by the way, where you can tell that the ship does make noise while in flight in atmosphere), but I was surprised that there weren't any onboard sensors that would have detected the ship. Then again, I suppose that adding sensors to check above the train for space ships might not make much sense from a cost perspective.
I can't wait until you get to Our Mrs. Reynolds, by the way.
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
I have carefully skimmed through this thread avoiding the spoilers because....
WE HAVE RESERVED FIREFLY AT OUR LOCAL VIDEO STORE!
We have been looking for *ages* but it doesn't seem to be anywhere in Australia. Until now.
There is a waiting list, but we are on it. Oh, happiness. Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
I was thinking about my nitpicking, and I realised why I do it, why I'm kind of an active participant. When I'm watching tv and there's something wrong with the set, I just accept it, if I notice it at all. Slight hum? Where? My brother or father will get up and prod the tv a lot in an effort to get rid of the hum.
It's the opposite with stories. For me, stories are the 'machines' that need prodding when I see a plot break or somesuch.
However, just like a tv hum being pointed out to me, and poked and prodded instead of ignored or leaving it unnoticed, I can see how other people might be very annoyed to have me being a bit nit-picky over stories.
Anyway, with that out the way, and I meant it in the most good natured sense, I just wanted to explain why I realised it wasn't such a great idea to take it apart (and believe, I really could if I tried, to the point when you would run away screaming ):
Noemon, the train issue is kind of interesting. Twinky was right; there are tiny windows on the train and if you listen to the ship, it makes a very faint sound considering its size. It is believable when you think about it.
#3 (Bushwacked) was definately scary. When I was falling asleep I kept seeing scenes from it (mentioned vaguely because of spoilers). Yes, I'm a total wuss, but no I didn't have nightmares.
I also didn't like this because of Jayne's little joke. I know Jayne's not supposed to be a very nice character but that was totally out of line .
#4 (Shindig) ... well you see my reaction. It was a great relief after the constant tension and gore of Bushwacked. Very funny, near-perfectly written.
The thing about Firefly I've noticed so far is the dialogue is never bad. In most shows there's that line which makes you cringe, but Firefly doesn't really have these .
I'm still waiting for the villan without an accent ! I suppose it must be from historical convention- when the Russians were evil, when the Germans were evil etc., when the cockneys were low down, yet rather comical criminals .
[Oh and the entire scene at the start with the electronic billiards was a set up for the sign (sorry once again for being vague), which was good because I was thinking "how is it easier to have fake balls that real ones?" ]
[ March 26, 2005, 11:29 AM: Message edited by: Teshi ]
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
My favourite episodes are the last three.
quote:Yes, I'm a total wuss, but no I didn't have nightmares.
I gave myself nightmares this week playing Resident Evil 4. It's one of the best games I've ever played, but because I play it alone in the dark with a surround sound speaker system, I scare the bejeezus out of myself and wind up waking up in a cold sweat wondering where my shotgun is.
[/aside]
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
It's really intense. More so than watching a scary movie, because you're right there in it and oh my god do those dogs have TENTACLES?, you know?
Is your essay done yet?
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
My favorites, if I had to choose three, would be (in no particular order) Objects in Space, Ariel, and Our Mrs. Reynolds. And War Stories.
Oh wait, that's four. I'll come in again.
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
Raja's distaste for picking things apart has caused me no end of frustration over the years. You can't know how much you love and appreciate a movie until you've taken every loose thread and pulled it apart and find out just how much of the fabric remains. I guess he's just happy wearing shabby pants. Or something. Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
And yet, which of us wears shabby pants more frequently? Ah HA!
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
You're all crazy.
quote: Is your essay done yet?
Nope. *dies*
I'm so fed up with it. I'm reaching the point where I honestly don't care if government officials are corrupt or not as long as I don't have to write about it!
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
5. "Safe"
You know how rare it is for movies, let alone tv shows, to carry of the whole 'flashback to a somewhat troubled childhood/youth' thing? Well, to my mind, Firefly manages it.
Book's got a story !
Again, nothing was wrong with this episode. The dialogue is so clean, I still can't get over it! I have a reaction to things that happen, yes, but it's a reaction to the intended meaning of the lines. (Except for a sudden outburst of "She turned me into a newt!". Luckily my roomate isn't home.)
Speaking of home, there was rather a lot of it in this episode. I'm actually kind of confused why it was called "Safe", because there wasn't very much safety and there wasn't really a lack of safety enough to be an ironic title. Hm.
Favourite line (from Jayne, surprisingly): "Dear diary. Today I was pompous and my sister was crazy."
Why is this show so awesome?
ps. So, twinky. You play the guitar, right? Can you play the themesong?
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
Yes, but it really doesn't sound the same on an electric guitar. Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
You don't have an acoustic one as well?
Hm.
6. "Our Mrs Reynolds"
(I have to be really careful what I say about this one, because of spoilers.)
It's getting kind of redundant to say it was fabulous. They all are. If I find one that isn't I'll comment but so far except for the blood-and-guts of "Bushwacked" I'm liking them all.
The best thing about this episode is I didn't see "it" coming at all. You know what "it" is if you've seen it. I can't really say anymore .
I like the growing Inara/Mal thing. It's very well done .
I'm dying to know about Book!
My only question is River's lack of picking up "it". She barely featured in this episode- perhaps she wasn't feeling so coherant- but compared to "Safe" I wondered why she had no reaction. One possibility is that she had a scene but it was edited out. It would have given "it" away, that's for sure.
I've said too much...
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
quote:I like the growing Inara/Mal thing. It's very well done .
I'm dying to know about Book!
Well, you're going to really hate them for canceling the show . . .
Also, River's still very much in and out at this point, mentally. She's very complex, and only gets more complex as the series goes on (you'll love/hate the last episode).
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Don't tell me that! My brain immediately went in to scenario mode and none of the scenarios were good!
Don't tell me anything! If they don't explain any of the plots, or people turn out to be the ravaging blood-blatter beast of Traal that's okay as long as I don't KNOW!
I suppose, there's always the movie.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
Teshi- There's a deleted scene from Our Mrs. Reynolds that I absolutely love that features River.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
7. "Jaynestown"
This one was the most sensitive one so far. Or perhaps I'm in a more sensitive mood, having just finished the essay and suffering from mild-illness-that-strikes-at-inconvenient-times. I really liked it, of course, even the somewhat deus-ex-machina subplot (with Fess), which actually managed to be really good . (Of course I liked it! do I even have to say that anymore?)
Yeah, so this one definately did some major character development for Jayne, River, Simon and Kaylee, which was really nice to see more of who they are and more of where they could have gone had people not been murderers and killed one of the best shows ever conceived </rant>.
I have to say that Jayne is one of the funniest characters EVER written. And it's simply because he's so NOT funny, hee hee.
This episode could have been a lot longer. I think that's the case with all of the episodes except "Serenity". They should have done a Sharpe-style tv-movie thing, darnit.
*laments*
[ March 28, 2005, 10:10 PM: Message edited by: Teshi ]
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
You're getting close to the good ones now. Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
"good" is taking on a whole new meaning...
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
So twink, you really count The Message among your favorites? I'd love to hear your thoughts on it--it's always left me cold (well, compared to the other episodes of Firefly. Compared to any other show it's great stuff).
Teshi, you'll get your wish to see a more developed, extended storyline this Sept. when the movie comes out. It occurred to me that you might not know that one was in the works. Same cast, with Joss still at the helm. Reavers are going to figure heavily into the plot, which I was a little disappointed by, but even so, it's going to be Firefly (well, Serenity really), so you know it's going to be good.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Hm. I don't like the reavers because they're really too grusome for me to watch much of. It turns the plot into horror. I hope the movie's not completely dominated by reavers...
But yes, I am looking forward to having a longer plot, although I have no idea how its going to work, what with half-invented characters and all.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
To me the reavers are much more frightening when they're alluded to than they possibly could be when actually shown on the screen. But yeah, I don't really go in for horror much either.
What do you mean when you say that the characters are half-invented?
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
I'm mean they've already been introduced, but only a few people will know that or how. I suppose it worked for the Star Trek movies... but...
EDIT: And I also like the reavers offscreen. It's safer, and too me, still scary.
Although I haven't actually faced a group of reavers just that one guy and what they left behind, so I may be judging from a different place than you.
[ March 29, 2005, 02:02 PM: Message edited by: Teshi ]
Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
I was also dissaponted to learn that the reavers will be in Serenity.
But even so, it's still the #1 movie I'm anticipating.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
According to what I've read, the movie is going to be done in such a way as to be accessible to people who aren't familiar with Firefly, without being a retread of what those of us who *are* familiar have already seen. How Joss is going to pull that off I don't know, but if anyone can do it he can.
Something that I've wondered about--that colony ship had an atmosphere, and wasn't especially cold from what I could see. Why didn't they smell the bodies instantly when they opened the door into that chamber?
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
quote:So twink, you really count The Message among your favorites?
Basically because the music at the end is unbelievable. I get shivers listening to it. I really, really hope that one day some of the music from the show (particularly the piano and string selections) will be available on a CD.
As to reavers, they can't be offscreen monsters-under-the-bed forever. Sooner or later we'll have to meet them (more so than we already have, of course).
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Hm...I'll have to listen to that when I get home from class tonight. The only non-theme music I really recall from the show is at the beginning of Heart of Gold.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
The Reavers are also the only "villain" that has already been introduced and can be used as an antagonist.
As for the smell not assaulting their noses instantly...it's more dramatic?
The pressure outside the 'lock was higher inside, so when the door opened, the air blew inward and kept the smell from drifting back until a suitably dramatic moment.
The internal filters were still working, thereby minimizing the amount of odor that could accumulate, but the filters weren't designed to handle that much carnage, so the bodies themselves maintained a thorough stench in close proximity.
-Trevor
Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
quote:The Reavers are also the only "villain" that has already been introduced and can be used as an antagonist.
No they aren't. What about The Alliance? What about the blue hands?
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
As far as I know, they haven't had a running feud with the Alliance - with the exception of hiding River from them and the crew's general dislike.
Which might take a great deal of backstory to bring non-Firefly watchers up to speed.
Reavers, however take two lines of explanation to understand why they are a bad thing.
As for the Blue Hands - sorry, doesn't ring a bell.
-Trevor
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
Doesn't ring a bell? Did we watch the same series? "Two by two, hands of blue."
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
Doesn't ring a bell? Did we watch the same series? "Two by two, hands of blue."
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Sorry Bob - I haven't watched the entire series.
I just don't like it that much.
-Trevor
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
Infidel! I cast thee out!
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Oh, right, you're the one that always says something about Dukes of Hazzard in Spaaaaaaace. I knew there was some otherwise sane, upstanding member of the community that had a problem with Firefly, but I couldn't remember who it was.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
quote:The only non-theme music I really recall from the show is at the beginning of Heart of Gold.
The theme is fine and all, but the string and piano stuff (there's one chord progression in particular that is used in several poignant moments)... oh, man.
In the DVD extras the composer says that after writing the bit at the end of The Message he called Joss and said "look, I've got this segment here but it's just too beautiful for the scene -- I wrote it as a goodbye to the show," and Joss said "leave it in." I'm glad he did.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Look, get Daisy Duke up there and I'll find something in the show worthwhile.
Which reminds me, Enterprise is on later...
-Trevor
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
Well, that's one thing Firefly and Enterprise have in common: both have been cancelled.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
...
Edit: This highly literate response was made to Trevor, not twinky.
to twinky: Yeah. And that's where the similarily ends. Except for the fact they're both kind of set in space.
[ March 29, 2005, 04:33 PM: Message edited by: Teshi ]
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
You know, it's funny. I remember that comment, but I don't remember the music.
Oh, oh, wait, yes I do! For some reason it's coming back to me.
Yeah, great music. Just an okay episode, but the music is top notch, it's true.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
Hey, don't look at me, *I* don't watch Enterprise. But I think Trevor was talking about how hot Jolene Blaylock is.
Noemon, yeah, pretty much all of the "background" music in Firefly is, IMO, really good.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
I think the Reavers are one of the weakest aspects of the show. They're not important or necessary. They're the cliched nightmare monster with no other purpose than to scare. They don't serve any useful purpose.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
As Twinky noted, I was drawing a parallel between the pointless eye candy of Daisy Duke and the nearly pointless eye candy of Joylene Blaylock.
Although I feel the need to add the disclaimer that I don't think Enterprise is a particularly good show either...I lost it when they mounted phaser cannons on retractable mechanical arms...
-Trevor
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
I was gone long before that. Bleh.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
I don't know about pointless - they do provide a hard and fast baseline of "evil" in an otherwise ambiguous mythology.
The social and political commentary viewers might derive from the "Pax Alliance" doesn't exist when you try common ground with someone or something so undeniably despicable as the Reavers.
In some respects, it's like using Nazis in movies...very few people ever mourn the Nazi dead or try to argue that the Nazis are terribly misunderstood creatures and we need to broaden our points of view to encompass theirs.
Are the Reavers particularly well thought out or especially creative as villains go? Not really.
But they do service a purpose.
-Trevor
P.S. Anyone have a count on Godwin's Law yet?
Edit: Sorry Twinky - there was nothing else on in the same time slot. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
[ March 29, 2005, 05:52 PM: Message edited by: TMedina ]
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I've read people theorizing that the reavers represent the a kind of clawing emptiness that is battling to take over Mal's soul after he's stripped of his faith at the battle of Serenity Valley. I don't think I really buy it though.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Interesting.
The parallel is there, certainly - but unless Whedon is planning on linking Mal to the Reavers in some way, it's a pretty stretched metaphor.
-Trevor
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I just got done watching The Message, and twinky is right that the music is phenomenal. The story, though...it just isn't spectacularly good like the rest of the series. I can't wait to hear Teshi's thoughts on this one. There are a number of things I could say about it, but I don't want to give any plot points away.
Oh, I thought of a another contender for my top three favorite episodes--Out of Gas. What's that make, five episodes that are in my top three? And of course, Ariel and Heart of Gold really deserve to be up there too.
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
This is terrible...I'm so tempted to go....rent...*gets a grip*
I just can't! I can't possibly make it if I have something ELSE with which to be obsessed. I'll have to wait for a better time for that. *looks at calendar* Hm. seems like I can pencil in some good obsessing early in the summer.
I'll check back here then. Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
Noeman- Please give us your opinions, I'd love to hear them. Put spoiler warnings on them.
Pretty please?
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Narnia, I heartly urge you to become obsessed. It's well worth it. And, as was said to me, there's only a limited amount of episodes, so it can't go on forever...
... or can it? Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
8. "Out of Gas"
Sublime.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
9. "Ariel" or "Ohmygoodnessthosepeopleareevilgah"
I loved this episode but for one thing. The Blue-Hands. Clearly, Joss Whedon has an eye from the utmost cruel, grusome and painful deaths he could possibly imagine. Between the reavers and the Blue Hands, the evil that pursues our heroes is almost unbelieveable. In fact, it is unbelievable.
That little painful-death gadget is the first thing I've seen in Firefly that makes me raise my eyebrows (before covering my eyes in horror, naturally). The fact that it works on everyone in the vacinity but them can be explained by something they've done to themselves, which also explains their pure evilness, their total lack of compassion, their apathy. But we could have felt that without the blood.
I hate it when people feel the need to make something so horribly repellant that we cannot look, and once we see we cannot forget. For me, watching on my computer screen, this guy dying, screaming, is less than two feet away. I will not be watching this episode again anytime soon, which is a shame, because besides that, it was a brilliant, brilliant episode.
My favourite bit by far was Simon's "hero-save-the-day" thing in the hospital . Shows how truly great as a doctor he is. And the hospital body scan thing was pretty awesome too. I wish we had something like that .
I can't believe that no one has yet figured out that River picks up other people's emotions, or even mused on the possibility.
Oh, I also liked the way they/Mal resolved 'the twist' (unamed for spoiler issues).
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Sublime? Nothing else to say about Out of Gas?
::disappointed::
The killing device of the Hands of Blue bugged me too, but not for the same reason. It just seemed kind of hokey and unbelievable to me. When I saw the guys dying, blood spurting everywhere, screaming at the top of their lungs I just thought "Yeah, right. Fake!" Only thing in Firefly that has caused that reaction for me, but the strength of the rest of the episode keeps this one in my top 3 list, along with the other 4 or 5 I've listed.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
I figured 'Sublime' would not be enough! I'll be more detailed ...
In short, I loved it to bits. Again, this was one of the more sensitive ones, and by the end, that last line in the present, I was definately watery eyed, but not even particularly because it was sad, but because it was beautiful...
We saw different sides of the characters too, as they faced not only death but also abandoning what had been their home (am I giving too much away).
The three interweaving stories worked perfectly. I never was annoyed that one was cutting into another. The surreal colours (bright yellow and green of the past, colours melting into blue in the present) gave the whole thing a really eerie, dizzying sense, as if we were the ones loosing blood and short of air.
The last flashback was really brilliant. It didn't matter at all that it was out of order in any story, it was truly incredible. I would have done one thing differently, however. I would have made the colours of that scene more brilliant- when the camera turned the colours were dusty and no longer the eerie greens and yellows. I'm assuming that this was intentional and intended to give us the full spectrum, but I would have made that spectrum brighter and more vivid.
In short, Sublime. Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
You're almost at the really good ones.
Every time I've started to watch the series with someone and we start creeping closer to the last three I start... well. I guess I shouldn't tell you how I start feeling, since that might give stuff away.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
NO HINTS! Or I'll never bring myself to watch them because I'll be too afraid!
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
10. (I think?) "Torture" or "War Stories".
Excellent episode. Nice to see everyone eager to get involved in a unified mission .
Nice also to see River's little trick (deliberately vague), although I wish everyone would communicate with one another a little better. If I was Kaylee and I had seen what River did I would not only be terrified of her, which was extremely sad, by the way, compared with them racing around laughing at the beginning, I would tell Simon. It's getting increasingly unbelievable that no one's yet guessed what has happened to River when it's not exactly subtle.
Although maybe Kaylee has guessed but hasn't the will to believe? Perhaps something will happen in the next episode.
There was a lot of Torture in this episode. I'm allowed to say this because I knew there was going to be from having watched all the others up to this point and knowing vaguely what was going to happen from the blurb on the back of the DVD case. Being prepared made it a little easier. Nevertheless, at some points, I had only one headphone earpiece held over my ear. (So I only had one ear, you could say, ha ha.)
It was easier than the previous episode, partially because I knew it was going to happen, but also because I felt that there was a reason. In the last episode, it felt somewhat random- a bunch of people just doing their jobs. This does not make me cringe or look away any less, however. People in pain are people in pain.
Jayne is hilarious: "Free soup!" ALthough as a character I think he deserved what happened to him in the last episode at then end.
Oh, one thing threw me a little; at one point, Zoe (who is an AWESOME character, by the way) did a bullet-avoiding roll (you know the kind I mean), and came up with two guns blazing. Yech. Does this actually work? Do people in a gun battle actually do roly-polys and it evades bullets?
Favourite Line, was a great stereotype-smasher: (from Mal to Jayne, Wash and Zoe) "No I don't!" For spoiler reasons, I cannot explain any further than that. Watch the episode. It's at the end.
Oh, and finally, I think Wash and Zoe's relationship is one of the best ever portrayed in a tv show.
[ April 02, 2005, 09:34 PM: Message edited by: Teshi ]
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I loved reading that.
And yeah "No I don't!" is a great monent.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
11. "Trash"
*giggle*
This one was very lighthearted. It's so nice to have one when I'm not existing in a state of constant fear and panic on the edge of my seat. I enjoyed the change.
This one was good, but not outstanding. The reason I'm a little lacking in things to say is that I just watched "The Message"...
12. "The Message"
So, I cried. What's it to you?
I really loved, loved, loved this one. It was the ideal episode so far, combining the best elements of Firefly with a new landscape- we haven't seen anything but desert before this and now we've got snow. A good change, a good tone to the episode.
I can't really delve all that much, because it's another of these very-close-to-spoiler ones. Um, there was some great character development going on, for them all. That's definately one of the episode's strengths. I'm starting to know the characters, and laugh at the jokes that I otherwise wouldn't have gotten.
The chase reminded me a bit of the computer game Tyrian, the way it was shot, which made me smile. It was definately a Firefly: The Video Game moment.
Also, Simon et al. seem to finally be acknowledging River's talents as a mind reader, empath, or, as she states in this episode, "I can kill you with my brain." Useful talent, that. I wonder if I'll ever see it used.
The characters are really believable. I love the way Simon tries to say the right thing but it always fails miserably (and yet he's totally charming still, jeez). I love the way Kaylee is so cheerful but has such a serious and easily hurt side, too. I love they way tough Jayne's fuzzy side: "It's not a girl's name!" and his hat .
What else can I say about this episode? I'm dying to know about Book, and what his story is, but I'm not terribly hopeful that I ever will. Perhaps in the movie. He's clearly got a lot going for him, just like the others on board- they are the top of their field.
Yeah, so I cried. And you're very right, Noemon and twinky, the music at the end was very beautiful. I'll have to go back and learn it .
It makes me sad that there are only two episodes left.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
quote:So, I cried. What's it to you?
It's okay.
quote:It makes me sad that there are only two episodes left.
Just wait until you've watched them.
Posted by Mr_Megalomaniac (Member # 7695) on :
Wow, so many people who like Firefly too. I knew the fans had to be somewhere, just didn't know where. Wish it didn't take me so long to go to OSC's website, (especially since he's my favorite writer). I guess it's better late than never.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Really Teshi? This is the first place where we've really disagreed--this episode does very little for me compared to most. There is some good character development in it, true, but the story itself I didn't care for.
Twinky is right, by the way--the next two episodes are amazingly good. Especially Objects in Space.
I don't know if we'll find out more about Book in the movie or not. Anybody else heard anything about that? River's story is going to have a prominent role in the film, or so I've read.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
I don't think we learn anything about Book in the movie. I hope we do if there's a trilogy, though...
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
Isn't the "I can kill you with my brain" scene in "Trash"?
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Concerning my weepiness: It was two in the morning, as you can see by the time so it MAY have been just the late hour. But yes, I did really like this episode. It guess it appealed to my sappy side .
Eh. I wasn't bawling but I did wipe a tear or two. I think there was an element of the time and what had happened in the day and the fact that I was alone in my room in the middle of the night. But I did cry. Hee hee.
Anyway, going back to "Trash" I think plot-wise this was pretty weak. Some good things happened, and there was some great moments, but overall it didn't seem to hang together so well as the others. It was one of those "Suprise! Everything came out as planned!" ones, and although I liked the way they did it, and they steered clear of cliche, it was a little bit... pedestrian, if you know what I mean.
Hilarious, thought.
Blacwolve, you are right. It was in 'Trash', that line of River's .
Anyway, only two more to go, and they're the one's everyone seems most excited about! Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
The only episode that I tear up during is Objects in Space.
I really enjoyed Trash, but it's definitely a popcorn episode, kind of like Shindig in my mind (although I think that Shindig is by far better). Still, I love the episodes that have reoccurring characters, and I really love the "I appreciate that. Not, you know, a lot" line. There are all sorts of problems with the plot of Trash, though, if you look at it closely at all.
Hmmm...I think I have different standards of plot-tightness for the popcorn episodes than I do the heavier ones.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
I find the best episodes are mostly the ones written and directed by Joss. It's his baby and it shows.
But I get shivers and feel the urge to cry (though I haven't; I don't cry often or easily) at the end of The Message, and at one point in Heart of Gold. Edit: there are a couple of other points, too. Usually around where the composer uses one particular progression that I think resolves to D major.
And "I *knew* you let her kiss you" makes me want to beat my head against the wall
[ April 05, 2005, 01:14 PM: Message edited by: twinky ]
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
To Noemon: I think that's because you're more involved in the emotion ones; there's other things to think about. You're not wound up in what's going on so much so your eyes a wider open for problems. I agree that Shindig and Trash are similar in fluffiness. However, I liked both of them a lot because after the grusomeness and the torture etc. they are such a relief on my proverbial poor nerves!
To the general public: I just had a thought about the one I called "Torture" but is actually "War Stories". Book says, "The Bible is fuzzy on the subject of kneecaps" but I'm fairly sure he isn't aiming for kneecaps when he's shooting, and none of the crew says anything about the fact he's just killed a bunch of people (although Book blithely comments that Simon probably hasn't yet).
EDIT to twinky: I don't cry often, either. I'm not a weepy watcher. It usually takes an innocent caught up in things over his or her head to make me- children (I cried the most I ever have in a Japanese film called "Nobody Knows" which I saw on my birthday, of all days), young people going off to war to die ("Goodbye Mr. Chips"), and the end of the Message. I probably wouldn't have cried had my roomate been home, but I allowed myself that one grace because there was no one home but me .
[ April 05, 2005, 01:19 PM: Message edited by: Teshi ]
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
Book doesn't kill anyone in War Stories. To me it was pretty clear that he was shooting the legs out from under Niske's men (the aforementioned kneecaps).
Similarly, he wouldn't let Jayne kill "Laurence" in the first episode.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Okay, I'm pretty sure you're right, then. I wasn't watching very closely- and there wasn't really all that much time to see. I only watched that one once and I'm sure you've been through several times!
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
He does, however, use an awfully big gun. I'd love to see him use Veera. Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:"I *knew* you let her kiss you" makes me want to beat my head against the wall
That's the line that made me like the show. That's so real!
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
.
Everytime Jayne gets out Vera/Veera/whatever and appears with all his ammunition looking exactly like the action hero, it makes me laugh because he's such a great character. The hat was priceless.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Yeah, capable though Book seems to be of violence, he definitely makes an effort to spare life when he can. I also had the impression that he was shooting to maim in War Stories. So, Teshi, do you have any theories on Book's secret? I should probably wait until you've seen the full series to ask, but I'm curious to know what you've come up with.
I'm not really one to cry at movies either. It happens occasionally, but I can't actually think of a specific instance in which it has, so it must not happen too often.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
quote:That's the line that made me like the show. That's so real!
But... but... AAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGHHH! So deliciously frustrating.
The look on Inara's face... just priceless. I also enjoyed it when she was all woozy, Morena Baccarin did a good job of that "And then I fell. And hit my head. You don't need to examine me. I'm fine" stuff.
I also love Jayne's hat.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
I think Book's secret is the single most frustrating thing in the show for me.
Teshi- Don't read this . . . . . . . .. . . .. .
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Especially after that Scene in Objects in Space.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
I couldn't decide whether or not that was real.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
With Book that's kind of the problem, I have no idea who he is. I'm strongly inclined to believe that he's a completely real Shepherd, no doubt about that in my mind BUT
- He uses a gun very accurately and can recognise the wounds of specific guns and specific bullets with a cursory glance (he claims it's from hunting rabbits in "War Stories", nobody believes him!) - He seems familiar with evasive tactics and other war-related methods. - his "Idet" ("Ident"?) card carries enough power to get him unquestionably allowed on board an Alliance Ship, despite coming from a somewhat untrustworthy ship himself. - He claimed, I thought, that he fought on the Alliance side in the war. I may be hallucinating on this though.
My guess would be an Alliance side hero general shocked at what he had done, entered into a monastery for penance and then exited so many years later only to hook up with Serenity and crew. This would give him the weight, the bargaining skills and the tactical/weapons skills he seems to have.
The only flaw in that exists in the fact that only six years have passed in-between the war and 'now', and I definately get the feeling he was in the monastery for much longer.
That's my best theory at the present moment, though.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
Hm.
I just don't think about it. I'm waiting for Joss to tell me in some wonderfully roundabout way in one of the sequels to Serenity. Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
You're clearly not an English major, twinky .
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
Indeed I am not. Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Teshi (and all others who haven't finished the series yet), don't read this until after you've seen Objects in Space.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Twinky, it about has to be real, I think--all of the other moments of mind reading are. In all of them, she picks up on the thoughts underlying her subject's conscious thoughts. Well, except Jayne. In his case I think she's picking up on thoughts that are right on the surface. There's no reason to think that she's wrong about Book. So the question is, what is Book "talking" about when he "says" "I don't give half a hump whether you're innocent or not. So where does that put you"? Is he addressing River? She doesn't just pick up the thoughts that are directed at her, clearly.
Now a question for me is whether, when Jubal says "that ain't a preacher", he's speaking from knowledge of who Book is, knowldege of what Book must be given what he has observed of him, or if he's just displaying his own kind of cracked nature by saying it.
Posted by Portabello (Member # 7710) on :
Just thinking of Objects in Space gives me the shivers. Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
You know, I don't actually know who directed which episodes. Which ones did Joss do?
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
Objects in Space, for starters.
And I'm not sure I agree with your other post.
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...I think River twists the things she "hears," and I don't think the snippets we're shown in Objects are necessarily to be trusted. *I* certainly don't trust River to know someone else's thoughts from her projection of what she thinks that person thinks. She has moments of clarity -- "don't look, don't look," some of the stuff with the bounty hunter, and that bit with Badger -- but most of the time I think she's lost between her conceptions of things (the branch) and reality (the gun). Most of the time I think she is incapable of distinguishing fact from her own deluded imaginings.
I could, of course, be completely wrong.
[ April 05, 2005, 02:23 PM: Message edited by: twinky ]
Posted by Portabello (Member # 7710) on :
I agree with Twinky on this one.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Again, don't read if you haven't finished Objects in Space.
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That's a good point. It would be a kind of cheap trick for the writer to trick the viewer by showing a series of mindreads that are accurate, and then throwing in a single one that is inaccurate though, don't you think?
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
Spoilers!
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Ah, but *are* all of the others accurate? I don't know that Simon's is, for instance. I looked on that as River's projection of what she's afraid Simon thinks. I think Simon is such a good guy that he actually *doesn't* think that, not even deep down. Call me an optimist if you must. Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
My own thread has become a mine field of spoilers.
*steps gingerly*
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
Go watch the last two episodes. That'll take care of it. Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
More Spoilers . . . . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . You know, Teshi is going to be incredibly disappointed when these aren't as interesting as she'd been imagining them to be while she was avoiding them.
quote:I looked on that as River's projection of what she's afraid Simon thinks. I think Simon is such a good guy that he actually *doesn't* think that, not even deep down.
I'd be inclined to agree with you if it weren't for the fact that Simon directly states this sentiment while talking to Kaylee in the hallway during their "isn't there anything you like about being on Serenity" conversation. He says it (well, 3/4 of the statement, anyway, but it's clear where he's going), kind of bites his tongue, and then corrects himself, saying that he'd be there (in the hospital) right now if it weren't for what they'd done to her.
And which of the others would be inaccurate? We know that Jayne feels scared and guilty about his betrayal in Ariel. Unless either Wash or Zoe are just going through the motions, River is getting a pretty good read on them. Mal's and Inara's comments both fit well with what we know of their characters (although I'm intriged by Inara's--I'm not utterly convinced that her comment is directed toward Mal at all. It may be a pointer toward her secret).
[ April 05, 2005, 03:00 PM: Message edited by: Noemon ]
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
Yarrrr! Spoilers!
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"Because of what they did to her" and "because of her" are two different things. In Objects, River's read of Simon is practically antagonistic. But I think Simon doesn't resent River, rather he is angry with the Alliance/Blue Sun Corp. River is afraid he resents her and so she makes that interpretation.
Edit: I have to admit that you make persuasive arguments. But what does that say about Book?
[ April 05, 2005, 03:06 PM: Message edited by: twinky ]
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Spoilers . . . . . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . Yeah, they *are* two very different sentiments. Simon slips and says the first, blaming River for his loss of status, and then corrects himself, putting the blame where it fairly belongs. He is a good, incredibly selfless guy, no doubt about it, but it would seem that he also feels some resentment toward River (and probably beats himself up about feeling it).
About Book, I know! I really want him to not be a horribly evil person masquerading at a good one, but the possibility is there. Of course, what we see in Book's mind could be some pivotal moment in his past that is underlying his current actions--that flash we see could be Book from his old days as a soldier or cop, before he saw the light and became a man of the cloth, and could be something for which he is doing pennance. It's hard to say.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
ARGH! I hate you for being right.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
Have you listened to the commentary? I have, but I don't remember what Joss said about it...
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Same here. I'll have to relisten to them.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
Teshi can tell us when she's done. Posted by Mr_Megalomaniac (Member # 7695) on :
SPOILERS (Some of it is from the commentaries, so even if you've seen the series you may not have heard this)
In the commentaries Joss says that the Blue Sun members are part of a psychic program, but I agree with who said that River distorts things. I think she tends to see the very darkest parts of human beings at times.
Also, I think Joss also said that at one of the parts, "This is when you begin to notice that Book is not a shepard." Joss might be having fun with the audience, and Book might really be a shepard, but who knows.
I don't think Book ever said he was an Alliance leader in the war or anything, but my brother thinks that he might have been the general at the battle of Serenity or somethign like that.
Also, does anyone remember that thing on the first episode that Inara had? All the time I thought it was a suicide needle, and Joss says, "Everyone thought it was so she could kill her self, but accually it's not. I'm not going to tell you what it is though. Hahhaha!" I can't remember if he laughed or not, but I know he atleast did on the inside.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
13. "Heart of Gold"
DARN IT! or, should I say, GORRAM IT! Will Inara and Mal never figure themselves out. It is so frustrating! *cry of anguish*
I don't know what to say about this one, really. So many things were left unsaid. It was a very frustrating episode, all in all. It's another one which should and could have been longer. So many pieces of the plot were left up to me to imagine, so many great moments just didn't fit in the story. It was solved too quickly. This, with a few additions and changes, could have easily been a movie plot. GORRAM IT!
I was exceedingly enthralled in this one. I laughed out loud at the "I'm just waiting to see if I fall over" line (just to let you know this is a big thing; I'm more of a silent laugher). I gasped in horror when people (deliberately vague) were killed. I giggled, and I was solemn. At the end, I was gripping my chair and at the very very end I was gesturing silently at my screen in anguished frustration: "Noooooooooooooo..."
Most involving , most touching , most frustrating . Gah. But pure brilliance, of course .
Only one more to go until I can read all the spoilers which I have actually managed to avoid by performing complex gymnastics with my eyes, my mouse and my scrollbar. O.o
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
When Inara... well, when you see her after the "puritanical about sex" scene... you know? It's heartbreaking.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
YES.
Because this was such a roller coaster of emotions, I'm a little lacking in things to say. But that scene... oh my goodness. It was... heartbreaking (there really isn't any other word).
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Yes, it is heartbreaking...
...I can't really blame Mal, though. She pushed him away a lot, emphasizing that theirs was just a business relationship. I know it served the story to have the unresolved sexual tension, but in real life, if someone pushes you away and tells you that there is nothing personal between, still being faithful to the idea of that person is kind of pathetic. Having rejected someone who liked me very much and then been devestated when he got over it, I understand the sadness. Still, what did she expect him to do?
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
That's why it's so frustrating! It's a vicious circle! It's like in Much Ado About Nothing between Beatrice and Benedict. They need someone (and that someone is no longer around) to tell them what the truth is!
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
Spoilers . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . In the Objects in Space commentary Joss says that Jubal is so empathatic as to be practically telepathic. So I think we can trust What Jubal says about Book. Or about anyone else for that matter.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Spoilers .. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . The priest? The same priest with an ID that makes Alliance commanders snap to attention? The same priest who can fire a weapon single-handedly with enough accuracy to shoot someone in the knee/leg?
Oh yeah, padre has a few skeletons in the closet - none of them his.
-Trevor
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
For someone who didn't like Firefly, you sure know an awful lot about it. Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
That is a heart wrenching scene, isn't it. I just want to reach into the screen and *fix* things in this episode, more than in any other.
One thing that I think is really cool about Firefly is that it's realistic enough in it's character and relationship development that it isn't at all certain that Inara and Mal ever would have ended up together had the show gone on, not for the typical "keeping up sexual tension" reasons, but because one or both of them would have moved on. Wish we'd gotten the chance to find out.
My two favorite lines in this episode are the one Teshi mentioned and River's "Who do you think is in there?" Great stuff.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
My opinion is an informed one.
And there was nothing else in an opposing time slot for me to watch.
-Trevor
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
(ahem)
You may now cease your spoiler-notification, I have officially finished the series. Let us all have a moment of silence for the passing of Firefly, may she live on in our hearts and minds.
14. "Objects in Space"
quote: You know, Teshi is going to be incredibly disappointed when these aren't as interesting as she'd been imagining them to be while she was avoiding them.
Teshi was not disappointed. Even what I imagined could not start on what this last episode ended up being. This was tv at the potential it should reach. This was great writing and great characters and great ifs and great storytelling and great ideas. All in all, it's like a sapling cut off half way up the trunk by vandals, what happened to Firefly.
After I watched this episode, I knew from the lines and the way it was filmed that there was more here than just plot, and I also wanted to hear the line that Book says when River reads his mind, I'll come to that later. So I started it again, and immediately noticed the planet at the start is the same as the bouncey ball from the end. *click*. After hearing Book's line and thinking "what the heck?" a couple of times I stopped the replay and went back to listen to the commentary, hoping Joss Whedon would shed some light on the subject.
I was very interested in what he had to say, and I was pleased how much of it was communicated clearly to me as a passive but thinking viewer. I got the 'walls opening' line immediately, from the sheer clarity of the writing, direction etc. I was also happy, and somewhat amused, to hear that JW disliked guns and violence and yet those things are just so much of this show. It's clear he knows that it sells, it makes the story exciting, and so he puts it in, but it's also nice to know that he wants to go beyond that. I think that's part of what makes Firefly so great.
Some of the shots in this episode were truly lovely. The one with River balanced on the railings, listening, took my breath away.
On a more mundane level, I thought Early was a great villian. I don't want to say too much but since you've turned this thread into a spoiler mine-field I feel like what I'm saying is totally inconsequential, so. Early's creeping yet laid back evil and violence was horrifying. Made my skin crawl, especially the scene with Kaylee. Holy crumpets. Not a fun situation.
And yet this episode for all its deepness, for all the horrible creepyness of Early, managed to have its moments of glee. Jayne's obliviousness, the midget exchange, the conversation between River and Mal. They were perfect.
And I loved that great scene when River floats towards Mal. Like JW said, she looks like a cheerful little kid in an oversized snowsuit. Fabulous.
I have no idea how to express how much I love this series, this storyline, this idea and these characters and how much disbelief I feel at the fact that it never even had a chance. There is no justice, is all I can say.
You can hear in JW's voice, in the actors, how they share the same sentiment. It's almost like the "what went wrong" idea. "The perfect show, and yet we failed, how the heck did that happen?"
I am, I think you can say, safely converted. You can have your DVD back when you want it, twinky. I'm going to go and find somewhere to buy my own .
~~~~~
Anyway, the speculation doesn't end here, certainly. I still have Book's character to investigate. Clearly, he has a (much) darker history, and possibly and much darker side. That cryptic comment read by River, which at this rate, we'll never know what it meant, kind of alerts us to this. I think it's a real sentiment, although I'm not sure if it was directed at River, or if River plucked it from a memory.
I don't have a clue what to make of it, though. Sounds like a cruel man, but I still legitimately believe that he is, at face value, a Shepherd, despite Early's comment that he's not. I'm sticking to this idea because, by the fourteenth episode, we've only seen him use whatever talents he has in the effort to further his Shepherdness. The act has been too long to pull the rug out completely from under us.
My theory now is that I don't think he's been a Shepherd for as long as he leads us to believe. He's obviously a man of action, and has been, or still conceals, a heartless general, cop or any number of other people that he could have been.
I have a further feel. If he was an undercover agent in a former life, who was then forced to take the guise of a Shepherd, who then decided to actually take up the vows of a Shepherd, he might garner the kind of things we've seen from him- the extensive battle knowledge yet the desire to be gentle, and not kill.
More later, I need to think .
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
And yet , because now it's over for you. You have seen all there is.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
My pet theory is a more predictable one - Padre had his fill of violence and blood on his hands and is trying to find redemption in doing the Lord's work.
If he was interested in maintaining a cover, he'd never have flashed the ID badge, nor wielded a weapon with such expert accuracy.
-Trevor
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
twinky: You captured what I feel perfectly. It's like coming to the end of a great first book in a series and then finding out the author couldn't or didn't write any more. I just can't get over it.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
Yeah, I know. Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
I have also been performing visual gymnastics but have emerged spoiler-free.
We have no watched up to Safe.
I love it, I love it, I love it!
Shindig is probably my favourite so far. Very funny, Whedon-dialogue at its best.
My only complaint is I think the whole "Mal is rough and tough but really has a heart of gold" is being beat over our heads a bit. I get it. He's unpredictable but deep down he cares. Ok already.
But it's great. They better make a movie otherwise I will be a very unhappy camper.
Posted by Portabello (Member # 7710) on :
At least you've got Jayne who is rough and tough but deep down is just a selfish donkeyhole.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Porter
Imogen, there will definitely be at least one film; it's already in the can, waiting to be released. If it does well there will be two more.
Teshi, you're officially the only person I know who can get away with saying "holy crumpets". Well, I could maybe see kat saying it, I suppose, but still--one of a select few.
I do agree with you that whatever else he may be, Book truly is a shepherd.
Isn't that business with the opening and closing sequence interesting? I *think* that I noticed that on first viewing, but you know how fickle memory can be.
I love your mutilated sapling analogy--fits incredibly well.
I'm so glad that you had a chance to see the series, and I loved following along with you as you discovered each episode. Now I get to do it with Imogen.
You might be interested in checking out the forums at FireflyFans.net. Not as robust a community as ours, it seems to me, but there are some interesting discussions of Firefly in its archives.
Here is the writer's draft of an episode that didn't get produced:
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) there were enough things going on that were unexpected to, not keep me guessing, but keep more utterly involved. I had to close my door because I kept giggling and exclaiming and people would think I was a little odd, if they don’t already.![[Angst]](graemlins/angst.gif)
.![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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.![[Laugh]](graemlins/laugh.gif)
You're all crazy.![[Wall Bash]](graemlins/wallbash.gif)
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