• why we never believed in a higher power or powers.
• if we once believed in a higher power or powers, why we stopped.
• from what source(s) does our morality spring?*
• confrontations with people of a religious faith.
• if we feel alone without a higher power or powers to guide us.*
• how we deal with death.
• how we feel about religion.

I'd like to NOT talk about separation of Church and State, or how PO'ed non-believers can be with religious politicians to avoid getting into a political debate. I'd like to also avoid talking about evolution, although it seems inevitable that a believer will ask how can we doubt that a god or gods exist when the world has so many diverse and complex lifeforms. Maybe we could branch those discussions into a different thread.
Let's define "believers" as those who believe in a god or gods or higher power.
Let's define "non-believers" as those who do not believe in a higher power of any kind.

(This thread was inspired by a post in Kat's grief thread)

* These bullet points are questions from believers that I (as an agnostic who leans heavily toward atheism) get asked a lot.
 

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Posted by Erik Slaine (Member # 5583) on :
 
Well.

As an aside, I think it interesting that my sister also came to agnosticism (leaning toward atheism) independently of me. She was in Colorado when she found that Christianity just didn't cut it for her.

When she moved back to California I was surprised to find that she had lost her faith. (I've been a rabid atheist since I was 13.)

This seems to lend credence to the idea that religious faith may have a genetic factor as well.

Also, I find it interesting that we both share an very "spiritual" belief in this. I find knowledge of the universe, as we currently know it, to be very inspirational. We share creativity as an outlet as well, she with her painting, and I with... well, everything (I am way too scattered!).

I think this is a great idea for a thread.

Thanks.
 

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Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
 
I used to be atheist. Was raised that way. I thought it was great not having rules and only myself to answer to. Death didn’t matter since I wouldn’t know I was dead. I made fun of religious people. And morality was based on what I thought was the greater good for the community as a whole.

But that was back then….
 

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Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
 
Jay, that was kind of tacky. It doesn' fit with what the thread was for. People have been very polite in the threads for religious - it's only fair to be so here, I think.
 

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Posted by Erik Slaine (Member # 5583) on :
 
'specially since most of us that are athiests or agnostic don't look at it that way.

But I'm sure that Tom D. or Chris would have a snappier comeback than myself....
 

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Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
 
What? I answered honestly and told about how I saw things as an atheist. Didn’t mention a thing about why I changed or how.
 

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Posted by Erik Slaine (Member # 5583) on :
 
I suppose you may have felt that way.

Perhaps that's why you found something that works for you.
 

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Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
 
I have a professor who claims to be an atheist. He says he has (his words summarized) "learnt too much about the world and science to believe in God." He was raised Jewish.

However, he is one of the most strigently religious people I know. He attends latin Catholic church services. His beliefs (he's pro-life) line up with more traditional Catholic ones. He reads the Bible and a variety of other religious texts with reverance and complete understanding of religious themes and ideas. His set of personal rules are very spiritually based (although not entirely Christian).

However, he is still an atheist; to him, the stories and rituals he loves so much are merely metaphors of the great movements and ideas of the human world, or something like that. Fundamentally, he does not believe in God, at yet, if you did not know that, you would swear that he was almost evangelical in his spirituality.

EDIT: I dislike the word atheist but I suppose I am one.

[ March 23, 2005, 11:51 AM: Message edited by: Teshi ]
 

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Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
 
I think Jay's intital comment highlights (for me) one of the most predominate myths about atheists and agnostics - that we don't have a moral code or anyone to answer to. I'm actually surprised that someone who was an atheist would think that way.

I had an interesting chat with a friend about this. She asked me about it, and I told her that having a conscience does a pretty good job of supplying me with a moral code. Just because I don't believe in God doesn't mean that I can run around killing people or treating others badly with no sense of shame or wrongness. Even when I was a Christian, I didn't need God for that. As for not having anyone to answer to, I answer to myself and to the people around me, all of which I take seriously.

The myth that I spoke of earlier is something that always makes me angry. Not only is it untrue, but it's also ignorant in my opinion. I loathe the fact that to a lot of people, I have to "prove" myself and my morality simply because I'm an agnostic. But if I were Christian (or anything else) there wouldn't be any question that I knew right from wrong. I think the myth is perpetuated by people who don't understand humanity very well. In my book, everyone has the potential for evil or good, and everyone makes a choice. Just because you follow a religion does not mean that you will always make the right choice, and just because you don't follow a religion doesn't mean that you'll make the wrong choice.

space opera
 

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Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
 
I wrote this for my landmark thread, and haven't really found a better way to put it:

quote:

---

I call myself apatheist, but I'm closer to areligious. Religious belief simply has no relevance or impact on my life, except where my life is affected by people with religious beliefs. I'm not disdainful of religion, I recognize it's importance to society and our history, and I strongly believe that without religion it would have taken the human race much longer to achieve civilization, assuming it has. And I have absolutely no opinion regarding which religion, if any, may be true. I'll find out eventually, or not, and it helps me stay respectful when I talk to religionists about their beliefs. In the meantime I endeavor to be a good person anyway. There is satisfaction in making the world a better place, there is joy in making others happy, there is peace in making others comforted, there is strength in integrity, and there is confidence that comes from never doing anything you would be ashamed to admit to.

---

I am definitely not an atheist, since that requires an utterly unprovable assumption that I see no reason to make.

To look at the list:

why we never believed in a higher power or powers.

I did, devoutly.

if we once believed in a higher power or powers, why we stopped.

Too many questions unanswered, too many contradictions discovered, too many hypocrisies unearthed, a desire to remove unprovable assumptions from my mental clutter, and some serious problems with the very foundations of Christian teachings, particularly the concept of original sin and the scapegoat. Also, the story of Job actually angered me as a child (and still does).

from what source(s) does our morality spring?

Religious teachings, which still have great worth to me even if I don't believe in the theological aspects. The Golden Rule works just as well no matter who did or didn't say it.
Philosophical teachings. Personal observations. A desire to be the kind of man I think I should be.

confrontations with people of a religious faith.

Only on Hatrack
I admit to a great deal of theist-baiting in my younger years. Spinning religionists into logical circles using their own scriptures was fun, easy, and ultimately disrespectful. Now I limit myself to doing so only when said scriptures are about to be imposed on me through legislation.

if we feel alone without a higher power or powers to guide us.

Not at all. I have family, friends, memories of respected mentors, and a wealth of teachings to choose from.

how we deal with death.

It'll happen. I'll regret missing what goes on with my family, no matter when I go, but nonexistence doesn't frighten me. Now, the pain part, that kinda bugs me...

how we feel about religion.

An important part of human history. An inevitable social development that aids in social structure and child-rearing. A source of comfort, education, and fellowship. An answer to the questions of why bad things happen. An outgrowth of man's deep-seated desire to anthromorphize everything. A powerful force for personal empowerment or impersonal belittlement, depending on your needs. The result of the natural human desire to find purpose and meaning and justice in everything. A source of hope for people afraid of nonexistence. A series of compelling mythologies that teach us about ourselves but don't stretch to cover every situation, no matter how creatively you try. A way of bringing a community together. An urgent and irrational need to plead with thunderstorms.

I can keep going, you know. It's like asking what I think about politics. There will always be religion in human society, and I can't say that's a bad thing for many, maybe even most people.

One argument I see occasionally, and have been asked before, is why atheists and agnostics don't get up in the steeple and start shooting people if they truly don't believe in an afterlife or a God to judge them. I guess this is supposed to make me think, but all it makes me think is this: Is that belief really the only thing from keeping religionists from shooting people? Really?

[ March 23, 2005, 01:45 PM: Message edited by: Chris Bridges ]
 

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Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
 
Well Jay, thank God religion has made you into a better person.

Anywho, I was raised Baptist by an atheist mother and a father who had had religion fail him and retreated, wounded, from God never to return. Not that I was aware of their beliefs until much later on. We all went to church every Sunday, I went to Sunday school and to the local youth group until I was deemed old enough to make up my own mind. It never worked for me. No religious experience, no sense of love or belonging. It was just a bunch of nice stories to me, but adding God to my life was simply a complication that I didn't need. Ironically, the same year I decided not to attend church any more was the year I joined a choir that travelled to different churches every Sunday.

Anyway, I was in that choir for 6 years and have seen more churches and heard more ministers speak than I dare to count. Some were fantastic orators, others bleak, boring, and banal. But never once did I feel any kind of a hook. My girlfriend in high school belonged to a United Church and I went along with the family because I enjoyed their company, but that didn't stick and, though we still dated, I stopped attending with her family.

Then one of my best friends asked me to attend his church, one Church of Latter Day Saints. I agreed and went with him for a few months, even went out for some of their Mormon Boy Scout events (not to be confused with the other religious sects of scouting). Read the Book of Mormon. Interesting myth, but it rang just as hollow to me as every other religious story.

After an undergraduate degree in Biochemistry I'm no closer to God than before, if anything I'm farther away. I know people who find their faith increased as they learn more about the massive complexity of life and reach the conclusion that it could not have come to be without God. Again, for me this adds an unnecessary complication and the more I learn about life the more I feel that an outside influence isn't necessary. Of course, I understand that the two perspectives had vastly different starting points.

And I'll be honest. The fact that God (if there is one) deemed it necessary to kill a close friend, inflict my grandmother, father and sister with Parkinson's (each by their late 30s) and a host of other things I could have done without didn't warm me up to him. Poor planning on God's part, I suppose.

I deal with death in the same way religious people do. I grieve for the loss of the person I will never see again on this earth. That they believe they will see them again is of small comfort until the grieving period has passed. Perhaps, after the fact, it's easier for them knowing that they'll meet them again, perhaps easier for me because I treasure and make more of the memories because I know it's all I ever have. I’m certainly not going to try and make the call one way or the other. But no, I don't think knowing I'd meet them again would make things easier for me. It doesn't help me now, and I'm not a patient man.

There are some things that are wonderful about religion. Foremost being the sense of community and the support that members of the community do for one and other. Religion does a lot of wonderful things for the world through their charity work, and whatever I may think of their beliefs I have to respect that.

On the other hand, I do find it very hard to relate to someone who is guided to decisions by the hand of God. It's just not something I can relate to, never having experienced it. Oh, I can pretend I do. I can smile and say, "Yeah, I can understand that", but I'd be lying through my teeth. In the same way I don't think I can understand what would drive someone to take their own life unless I tried to take my own I don't think I can understand how someone can be guided by God without knowingly having God guide me to a decision on my own. As it is, it doesn't make logical sense to me. The closest thing I have is a "gut" feeling, and those can be terribly wrong. It doesn't help that I've seen many people make decisions based on what God has told them only to have those blow up in their face. That it's all part of God's plan may be enough for them, but I find that answer very unsatisfying.

From where does my morality spring? I don't know, really. I try and do as little harm as possible in my life and let others live as they would without my meddling. Something that's fairly easy to do on a personal level but, understandably, much more difficult to do on a provincial or national one. Like SO, my conscience seems to be an excellent moral compass. The 10 commandments (as an example), venerated as they are, seem to be pretty obvious guidelines for how to have a successful community. You don't need to believe in God to follow them, you simply have to value the community and want to see it continue. I like my community, my friends, family, province, country, and world. I want to see it flourish. *shrug* seems pretty clear to me. People may disagree with me on how to best do that, but being religious certainly isn't all uniting. There are constant disagreements over how things should be run to reach God's ideal. Witness the recent "modernizations" of many of the world's religions.

Soooo... I think I've been typing long enough. Jonny asked too many questions in that opening post.
 

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Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
 

quote:

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You don't need to believe in God to follow them

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Well, not 2-9 anyway.
 

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Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
 
I knew someone was going to point that out I'm going to twist it to mean love of money or power and make it fit my system.

Darn preachers.

Edit: Actually, nevermind. A bunch of them don't fit to the letter. See! Religion is complicating things for me again. Curse you for reading things for their literal meaning and not their spirit! You're as bad as lawyers!

[ March 23, 2005, 02:12 PM: Message edited by: Bob the Lawyer ]
 

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Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
 
JNSB --

Thanks for starting this thread. Since I have never known a time in my life when I didn't believe in God, it has always been difficult for me to understand the mind and the thinking of those who don't, or who used to, but don't now.

Hopefully this discussion will be somewhat enlightening to me - into seeing more about others beyond "lack of belief". I have wondered many of the exact questions you bullet-pointed in your first post.

Farmgirl
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
1) why we never believed in a higher power or powers -- or, if we once believed in a higher power or powers, why we stopped.

I was born Catholic, but very early on concluded that its teachings simply made no sense. Too many Catholics I knew were total hypocrites; too many were Catholic for the social benefits only. Even at a very young age -- by which I mean about seven or eight -- I was enormously bothered by this.

After all, if the Catholic faith were true, there would be nothing more important than that knowledge. A life lived in comprehension of those teachings without the active practice of those teachings would be meaningless. But almost all the Catholics I knew attended Easter and Christmas Eve and the occasional confirmation, but otherwise acted as if nothing happening in Rome had any impact on their daily lives. Even worse, those people I knew who were devout Catholics, who actually understood their own doctrine, were the worst kind -- stuffy, God-bothering proclaimers; it seemed almost as if the culture existed despite the religion. It didn't help when I dove into Aquinas and Augustine and the histories of the saints and found myself rolling my eyes at logical inconsistencies. I figured that if I could poke holes in an argument at 8, and if the church had accepted that argument as true, something was seriously wrong.

So I started looking for sincerity -- and, above all, logical consistency. I wanted a religion that made a certain amount of sense, had decent secular values, and to which its followers were powerfully and sincerely committed. Quakers, Mormons, and Baha'is made the short list -- and I went with the Baha'is, mainly because I deeply admired their committment to both the concept of progressive revelation and the oneness of humanity, but also because the Baha'i approach to miraculous intervention seemed to match more closely my own historical observations.

But by the time I was fifteen, I was having some second thoughts. My family had observed my conversion and, after some consideration, converted along with me. Frankly, this ticked me off. My mother, who has a frighteningly addictive personality (and who was the original "born" Catholic in the family) rapidly transferred her own fanatical, desperate, generally unthinking belief onto the Baha'i Faith with a lemming-like groupthink that I found dispiriting; she surrounded herself with similar Baha'is, which meant -- especially once she and my father, who barely even pretended to believe in God, and certainly never meant his marriage vows, divorced -- that I found myself again surrounded by people who proclaimed their strident faith but clearly didn't know the first thing about it. More worrisome was the fact that the Faith itself was entering a period of shrinkage; its brightest minds had for the most part died, and the American chapter in particular had become filled with apocalyptic fundamentalists who sought to stifle all religious conversation under the pretense of enforcing some kind of harmonious "unity" -- which, among Baha'is, is considered a major virtue.

I had particular difficulty, as I got older, understanding some of its more traditional Islamic prohibitions. Why, for example, could one not even cook with alcohol? What was wrong with masturbation? Why, in a religion that specifically identifies the equality of men and women in all roles, were women not permitted to serve on the UHJ? And so forth. And more practically: why were so many American Baha'is a weird fusion of New-Agey crystal gazers and/or lapsed Catholics from Eastern European families with inflated senses of their own galactic importance?

There was another problem, too. The Faith, like the Quakers and the LDS, places a great deal of importance on the concept of personal revelation. In fact, all three religions teach that if you have a major decision to make, you should sit quietly and meditate until you feel an inner urging of some sort nudging you along a given path; if you doubt your faith for a moment, all three suggest that you focus and try to hear the voice of God.

But I had never -- never -- heard the voice of God. Ever. Even when I sat quietly and thought about major decisions -- a practice that I still do to this day, since I find that meditation and tai chi and other forms of focus enhancement help me make good choices -- I was always aware that the confident nudging I was receiving was in fact my own.

To try to figure this out, at the age of fifteen (Baha'i majority) I went on pilgrimage to Israel for several months, staying mainly in Haifa. I hung out with as many different people from as many different cultures and religions as I could, and arranged several conversations with members of the Baha'i Universal House of Justice and Hands of the Cause -- a direct analogue of the LDS quorum. Sadly, in all my conversations with these people -- many of whom were quite intelligent -- I came away disappointed; quite a few had a completely different view of the Faith than the one I held, and I was dismayed to discover that their worldview was considerably more hostile, apocalyptic, and victimized than I'd expect from people with a direct line to a benevolent, omnipotent God.

And then, while I was at the Wailing Wall in Jerusalem, a number of Israeli soldiers gunned down some rock-throwing protesters -- and, more tragically, a crowd of around a hundred who surrounded them. I had remained in the area despite my own better sense because, even then, a certain sensationalist impulse that would later drive me to journalism made me want to see what happened. I regretted it.

As I flew out of Israel shortly thereafter, profoundly disillusioned, the Gulf War broke out. By the time I returned to the United States, we had already begun combat operations. My uncle had attempted suicide, and tried to take his three youngest children with him. My best friend's girlfriend had died of an accidental drug overdose. And the girl I was dating had gotten sick of waiting for me to come back and started sleeping with a 36-year-old regular at the coffeehouse where she waitressed.

I figured, quite frankly, that I had found exactly as much God as I needed.

2) from what source(s) does our morality spring?

For me, it mainly comes from philosophy. I've always had fairly strong opinions on the importance of justice and mercy, and have tried to live my life according to what I consider to be the optimal intersections of those virtues. It also helps that I have always, always liked people a great deal, and tend to regard the harm they do to each other as lapses rather than norms.

3) confrontations with people of a religious faith.

Being Baha'i was always kind of weird, growing up, because no one knew what it was -- and I quickly discovered that "non-denominational" services, especially in organizations that I enjoyed (like the Boy Scouts) were in fact not nearly as open-minded as they made them out to seem.

Indiana was a weird place to be non-Christian. My high school graduation address was delivered by a devout Protestant minister who told us all -- and keep in mind I was sitting next to a self-described Wiccan and a Buddhist -- that nothing we had achieved, and nothing we would ever achieve, would amount to much unless we took Jesus into our hearts. It was profoundly offensive. The next year's class had to put up with the same jerkwad. Finally, we all got together and lobbied the school to yank him -- but the ensuing flap got the local Christians so riled up that they decided to hold their own "religious graduation" an hour after the graduation ceremony, at a local Baptist church. Because, y'know, what's a high school graduation without the fear of Hell?

4) if we feel alone without a higher power or powers to guide us

I don't feel particularly alone, although I miss some of the social aspects of church. I still go to Midnight Mass on Christmas Eve just to have the chance to sing carols, for example; I'd love to be in a church choir, since I love the music, and wish there were secular alternatives. I'm also concerned about the kind of ostracism Sophie might suffer -- especially since I was raised in a church during my formative years, and don't know what she'll miss.

5) how we deal with death
I feel occasionally worried about the afterlife, too. The idea of death scares me a lot; I don't particularly relish the concept of oblivion, and neither do I feel like winding up tortured for eternity by some arbitrary, vengeful bastard.

6) how we feel about religion
I think religion can be useful. I think it helps spur people, in some cases, to be better than they would otherwise be, and is often the motivation behind acts of genuine beauty. I also think it can be extraordinarily dangerous, especially when vouchsafed by the ignorant.

I'm also deeply, deeply suspicious -- and jealous -- of people who say they've had some kind of personal connection to the divine, and it's possible to enrage me by listing off all the prosaic "miracles" (like, say, your brother's sudden remission) you've experienced in your life. I try to be on my best behavior in those situations, but it's really hard not to ask snippy questions.

[ March 23, 2005, 02:31 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
 

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Posted by Verai (Member # 7507) on :
 
-why we never believed in a higher power or powers.

There's too many conflicts and inconsistencies in the religions I've looked over in interest. If a higher power is interested in my attention he will give me something more than symbolic messages that can be interpreted a hundred different ways.

-from what source(s) does our morality spring?*

Basic human conscience. If it hurts other people it is bad. If it makes other people happy or better it is good.

-confrontations with people of a religious faith.

When I was a teenager my friends and I turned this into a sport of sorts. The cool thing to do was learn about all the ridiculous things in Christianity and get into debates with the faithful. I'm older now and realize what an immature thing that is to do. Furthermore, it is pointless. To turn someone away from their faith (or lack thereof) with arguments is extremely rare.

-if we feel alone without a higher power or powers to guide us.*

No.

-how we deal with death.

I'll burn that bridge when I get to it.

-how we feel about religion.

It's nice to bring people together for a common cause, mostly good.
 

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Posted by Verai (Member # 7507) on :
 
To be fair I feel I should add one more thing regarding confrontations, a few cases that have added to my lack of faith.

Once I was convinced to attend a female friend of mine's church. It turns out that they were loosely following the "speak in tounges" ordeal. The synopsis is that once you're renewed with power of Jesus you would be granted the ability to talk in a random language that only you and god would know, that the devil could not understand. I noticed that while the preacher was adept at this, those in attendance with the church could only manage grunts and yelps.

One man got up and began to run around the church when his revitalization came. The experienced guest preacher stood in front of everyone and told the crowd that they dare not speak of this to anyone outside the church, that the holy trinity is everywhere, would hear, and you would be punished. Basically, "do as I command or you're going to hell." I have never felt more scorn. I do realize that this is the exception to the rule but that didn't make it any easier for me to deal with at the time.

Earlier than that I was in regular attendance (again to the unyielding pushing of a female friend) to a different church, a baptist one. The youth pasteur, married, was a popular one. However, after two or three months he fled the state with one of the youth members in tow, leaving his wife and children.

Neither of these cases did much to make me sure of the unshakable power of religion. If god is real, what am I supposed to interpret from these things? Someone of faith would take them as a test of that faith. Am I, personally, supposed to be impressed?

Lately I have been reading much about Druidry (at least all there is that is available. Kudos to that one guy who decided that you shouldn't write stuff down). Although I take little stock in their gods, I am impressed with their reverance for nature and theories that all life is intertwined together. Because I do not subscribe to the beliefs of religion does not mean that I do not respect them and their beliefs.
 

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Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
 
I'm not sure if I belong here or not. Agnostic kind of fits my beliefs, or perhaps Non-Church Belevier would be better. However, since I am not Christian I am certain this comes closer to where I belong than many of the Christian threads.

Jay, your original post was misleading. You assumed that a person without religion is a person without morality. Since that is a common misconception of people who have religion, I first read your post thinking it was satire, not your own life experience.

However, from your previous posts you do seem to have all the energy and enthusiasm of a convert, so I will believe it is true.

In that case you seem to come from a minority on non-believers. You did not think the morality of non-belief was enough for you, so you found it in Christ. Most non-believers I know did not think the morality as presented by thier church was enough for them, so they strove to find it on their own.

That is what happened to me. I listened to the preachers and read the books from the believers, but they all seemed to be only part of the picture. If God is love, how can he condemn so many millions of non-believers to eternal damnation just because they did not have the luck to be born in a Christian Community.

How was I to know which religion was the correct one? I went to each in turn and read about them. I saw where they did terrible things in error. I saw where they were not complete. They each seem to limit what God is, and God by God's nature, is unlimited.

So I created my own religion. I routinely have discusions with God, though God doesn't answer me in voices or signs. I keep an open mind because I know that I am not perfect. I do not pray for things, cures, advancement from God because I believe that God has a plan for the Universe, and my selfish needs can not and should not cause God to change those plans.

If you want to hear more, I'll write more later. Got to go now.
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
Tom, thanks for sharing that. I have a soft spot in my heart for agnostics.

Among everything you wrote, the one thing that occurred to me as being strange was your mother's conversion to the Baha'i faith. I dunno why, it just seems so bizarre to be fanatical in one faith and then, almost as if on a whim, become fanatical about a very different faith. I would wonder about what happened to the faith in the first one. I was wondering if you had any more details on what happened there.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
Mom was raised Catholic, but her childhood was remarkably unpleasant; her family had been wealthy nobility in Europe, reduced to walking a beat and keeping a small shop in Boston. They hit her regularly for the slightest infraction -- and constantly imagined infractions that had not occurred. (For example, she was so often beaten for smoking when she did not in fact smoke that she started smoking just so she'd have the pleasure of doing the thing she was being punished for.) Her Catholic schooling -- stern nuns who slapped the Latin into you and were sure to tell you that, for example, a natural talent at art was "useless in the real world" -- didn't help.

By the time I was born, she was a highly unstable, needy alcoholic, and had been long disowned by her parents. (I've only seen my grandparents on her side once, and have heard from them only a handful of times; they do not impress.) My dad had problems of his own. Both of them, I suspect, were always looking for meaning, and have evolved ways to cope; I think they looked to religion as a way to justify what was happening to them.

Mom was always fixated on how "special" I was as a child; I was clearly intelligent, and so she paid serious attention to my own search for a church. When I bought into the Baha'i Faith, I think she saw conversion as a way to express her confidence in me and somehow wipe the slate clean of her own memories of tainted religion. I think, too, that the church had been one of the few ways she had bonded with her family, and perhaps she felt a duty to bond with her children over faith in the same way; certainly, she was heartbroken when I again left the church years later. And once she converted, she met a lot of like-minded people who reinforced her belief that she made the right choice; the Baha'i prohibition on alcohol also really helped, I think, although it took her several years of hypocrisy to get beyond that addiction.

It makes her happy, and I'm glad that I introduced something that has made her happy -- even if I eventually decided that it didn't do it for me. It is rather odd, however, to be lectured on not living in accordance with Baha'i law by someone I led to it in the first place.

[ March 23, 2005, 03:25 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 
Dan, while I think Jay's post was not the height of politeness, I don't think it's fair to assume that he assumed that a person without religion had no morality.

Although he did mention there being no rules, he specifically said that "morality was based on what I thought was the greater good for the community as a whole." That serves pretty well as a founding tenet a moral theory - the summation of a pretty complex and in-depth one, actually. And, in fact, it echoes some of the thoughts of others in this thread who stated it more thoughtfully.

Dagonee
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 

quote:

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Mom was always fixated on how "special" I was as a child; I was clearly intelligent, and so she paid serious attention to my own search for a church. When I bought into the Baha'i Faith, I think she saw conversion as a way to express her confidence in me and somehow wipe the slate clean of her own memories of tainted religion. And once she converted, she met a lot of like-minded people who reinforced her belief that she made the right choice.

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Wow, this strikes me as a spot-on explaination for what happened. That totally makes sense to me. I think if I grew up under the same circumstances she did, I would have just shriveled inside. It makes me mad when the young an innocent are abused, especially emotionally.
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
I'm gonna have to agree with Dag. I did not interpret what Jay said to mean that someone without God in their lives isn't moral. Perhaps because I myself think that if I didn't believe in a God, I would pretty much look to myself to decide what was right and wrong, and thus I would be the rule-maker. I would be in charge of defining morality, and I could define it however I liked. Some humans do very well in that position, some do terribly. And it is appalling how many people manage to twist their view of morality in spite of the moral teachings of a religion in their lives.
 

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Posted by Erik Slaine (Member # 5583) on :
 
I've got a little more time now, so I think I'll try to address your questions.

why we never believed in a higher power or powers.

I did. I was raised Catholic, and was confirmed. I was the star of my catechism class (after all, I do love history).

if we once believed in a higher power or powers, why we stopped

Is there one thing? No, it was a string of events which took place after my parents divorce (which the Catholic Church has never recognized). The more I read and studied culture and history, the more views I began to see. This radicalized me. I was getting into cosmology at the time, and could see that a universe required no God. That was the beginning. It made more sense to me. The hardest part was putting down my old beliefs of the afterlife. It's a scary thing when you're only 13 and realize that there isn't going to be anything.

from what source(s) does our morality spring?*
confrontations with people of a religious faith.
if we feel alone without a higher power or powers to guide us.*

This answer I am most passionate about, and is very simple: Ourselves. I take the responsibilty for what I do to myself, no other. This can be a heavy burden, but I have the courage to face it, acting out of a self-developed sense of morality that has personal consequences.

how we deal with death.

I like the Buddhist idea, in regards to enlightenment: we extinguish. Really, as a mature adult, I have no need to continue indefinetely. I do not want immortality. I want to end.

how we feel about religion

As was said previously, it has its uses. I don't think the general population is ready to take the moral responsibility required upon themselves to make it work without us.

And let me also make clear that I do not consider Hatrackers the general population, and those here that are religious seem to take responsibility for their own actions regardless.

Others have been much more eloquent than I on the subject here. Usually, when religion is discussed on this forum, I simply wait for Chris or Tom to show up, and they put the arguments beautifully and tactfully, which I respect to no small degree.

I would have either of them defend the case, rather than myself, as I am known to be a bit chaotic in my nature.
 

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
 
Wow. There's a lot of disavowed Catholics on this board, I don't think I ever realized that before. o_O

(I'm highly enjoying reading these by the way, thanks )

(Enjoying as in I find fascinating and illuminating, not as in I'm sitting high up on my Church's spiral tower smiling at you poor deluded people )

Hobbes
 

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Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
 
I used to be 7th day adventist
For some reason the religion got too tight like a skin that won't grow.
Perhaps it was the belief in the end of the world. Reading about it was scary and it just didn't happen.
Maybe it didn't fit anymore or there were SO MANY THINGS about Christianity that bothered me, that seemed wrong and disturbing.
Whatever it was, I started to read about Wicca, I got into Rumi. I enjoyed reading about paganism because it fit me more, this whole everything is intertwined idea that makes sense, even though it gets ruined in a way by silly new-agey types who simplify it way too much.
I simply have my own religion.
And also I am a firm believer in the Celestial Library... It's just too cool an idea not to exist!
 

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Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 
I was baptized and partially raised Catholic. I say partially because my mom and dad are sort of the religious black sheep of their families. My family is rabidly Christian on one side, and rabidly Catholic on the other (totally different kinds of being rabid). But my brother, mom, dad and I are the only real non religious folk on any branch of the family tree.

I did attend church for a bit as a kid, but grew extremely disillusioned with the Catholic church. I felt they were a force for good in the world under most circumstances, and I probably got more than a little influence on them when it comes to my position on abortion (though not on birth control and gay rights).

I rocked back between atheist and agnostic during my teen years, finally settling on a truce. I figure there might be something out there, so I won't deny it, but if there is, I don't think he/she/it is an active participant in our lives, and it is up to us to make choices and define our own morality. There's too many religions to choose from really, and no way of knowing which one is really the correct one, so I refuse to choose. Even if I were an ardent believer in God I still wouldn't practice a religion. Structured organized religion would never work for me, too unbendable, nowhere near progressive enough, and way too many rules that seem archaic to me.
 

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Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
 
why we never believed in a higher power or powers or if we once believed in a higher power or powers, why we stopped.

I was raised LDS. Growing up I thought it was all true. I believed that we Mormons knew The Truth. I always looked forward to being a missionary. As I grew older, believing my parents words became no longer sufficient for my own faith. I felt that I had to obtain a testimony for myself. I accepted the challenge of the Book of Mormon and read it cover to cover. I prayed to know the truth of it as I had been taught. I didn't feel anything. Mormonism made logical sense to me, but that was largely because I hadn't come to the point where I could believe there was no god. I totally bought into the "watchmaker" arguement for intelligent design. I could look askance at evolution all through school because, well, that was the thinking of man and man was fallible. So I continued to believe and to accept the LDS teachings because they made sense to me. Better sense, even, than any other religion whose tenets I studied. But my testimony of the LDS church was always "If there is a God, it makes sense that the LDS church would be his church." But I never received the "burning in the bosom" that others claim to have felt.

To make a long story short, as I grew older, religion seemed to answer fewer and fewer of my questions. I reached a point in my life where I had to know the truth about God and his will. I was at the bottom-most point in my life. I felt utterly alone, unloved, and worthless. I prayed with all my heart for any kind of witness from God to know that he was there, that he loved me, and that I wasn't wasting my life trying to fit into the Mormon mold. I got nothing. No burning in the bosom. No bright light. Not even a flicker. At that breaking point for me, I decided that the lack of an answer was an answer itself. I opened my mind to possibility that perhaps no one was answering because no one was there. I began to review my concept of the universe in light of this possibility and suddenly so much more made sense to me. I have never since felt the despair I felt trying to reconcile who I am and what I know about the world with what I know about religion and God.

2. from what source(s) does our morality spring?*

Ironically, my habitual morality springs largely from my religious upbringing. However, my intellectual morality springs from philosophy. I'm still trying to piece together a complete and coherent philosphy, but I believe one can be arrived at through logical philosophical thought and doesn't need to be handed down from on high.

confrontations with people of a religious faith.

I haven't had that many. Most of the religious people I know are quietly religious. I had way more confrontations with religious people back when I was religious.

if we feel alone without a higher power or powers to guide us.*

Much less so now than when I believed in a higher power. Oddly there is some consolation in the thought that God doesn't exist. The corollary is that he exists but I'm not worth his time or that he likes to play sadistic games with me. Far better to be alone, in my opinion.

how we deal with death.

Que sera, sera. I am largely un-troubled by things over which I have no control. I try to avoid death as much as possible. I know it will happen, and since I've met Chris, I dread the day it comes for either of us. But whether I'm right or wrong about God doesn't make a difference. If I wake up in hell I'll be so thrilled that there is still a "ME" around that it'll be a few minutes before I start deciding how I can re-decorate.

how we feel about religion.

I think it can be a crutch for weak people. I think it can be a source of pain for good people with self-worth issues. I think it can be a source of inspiration for creative people. I think it can be a source of fellowship for like-minded people. And I think it can be a source of oppression to those not of like mind who fall under its influence or sphere of power. In short, I think it can be a source of pain, death and hate as much as a source of joy, inspiration, and goodness. Therefore, I think it is like fire. It is an amoral force that speaks more about it's users than itself.

[edited last question only to give a fuller view of my opinion about religion.]

[ March 24, 2005, 07:58 AM: Message edited by: KarlEd ]
 

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Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
 
why we never believed in a higher power or powers.

I'm going to roll my childhood into this category. I was raised a-religiously -- my family never discussed religion, really, although we did attend a UCC for a few months when i was about 7. I hated it.
I remember writing a very angry song about my experiences at the Sunday School there -- something about "Who cares about what moses did?!" sung in hiphop form as I danced angrily around my bedroom. I was a strange child
I always said, if asked, that i believed in God. but that was perfunctory -- something akin to reponding "fine" whenever your parent asks you how your day was. I never really felt anything, i never really was comfortable at church or hearing scripture.
Around sophomore/junior year of high school I started to understand that there were other choices out there -- other things I could believe in. Or not believe in I picked up Judith Hayes "The Happy Heretic" and though I wouldn't recommend it today, being as it is hideously biased and condescending towards religious belief, at the time it helped me hone a lot of what i was feeling into stronger ideas.

from what source(s) does our morality spring?*

Common sense. Humanism. Realizing what is necessary to enable *everyone* to live full, happy lives. It's not too complicated.

confrontations with people of a religious faith.

none, really, i mean, aside from the premarital sex thread we had awhile back...obviously, religious people find it hard to accept that i don't view marriage as sacred, or premarital sex as a sin. So from time to time I have to deal with that here. But it's not so bad, and the conversations always help me to strengthen my own thoughts.

if we feel alone without a higher power or powers to guide us.*

i did once, right when i was starting to really believe in atheism i was really pissed off that there wasn't a god. That sounds a bit funny, but i was just annoyed. Why wasn't there? Mixed in with that indignation was a bit of: Hey, I mean, all these other people think there is a god, why can't I?
I guess for a time I wished that I hadn't realized there wasn't.
But that's pretty much gone now, along with a lot of condescension I felt towards the faithful, and a lot of my fatalism. "No God? That means there's no meaning to life AT ALL!! *weep*"

Which is a good segue into...

how we deal with death.

Because I do still fear it. Tremendously. For myself and my loves ones...because our time here is so ridiculously brief and there's no way I'm going to be able to do *everything* i want to...and i just want a million billion jillion dollars to fall out of the sky so i can accomplish all my goals and buy my family everything they've always wanted so we can experience that crazy feeling of *contentment* before the end.

But then i realize that i can have that feeling without all the trimmings, just cuddling with my boyfriend or having a really good conversation with my mother -- or in being glad that my father and i have a decent relationship, given past issues between us.

how we feel about religion.

sometimes i'm sad, sometimes i'm ambivalent. i feel religion, like Tom said, can do a lot of good for people. But i think it does a lot of bad, and i think it twists the way people view the world...gives it trimmings that aren't really there. Someone sees a sunset and thanks god for the beauty, i see one and just marvel at the natural phenomenon...i don't know. it's hard to explain because my feelings towards "religion" are constantly changing. check back with me again in a few months
 

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Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
 
* why we never believed in a higher power or powers.

I once believed in God. He was a man that my parents knew about, but I'd never seen him. Very similar to my parents' bosses. I heard their names, but I never met them.

God apparently lived in the attic, because I was told that if I kneeled by my bed and said prayers, God would hear them. I checked under the bed, and I knew he wasn't in the living room, so he must have been in the attic.

I can't say how I stopped believing, because in effect, what I believed in just never morphed into an adult conception of God. I can give glimpses into points in my life where I considered the issue:

When I went to Sunday School, they told us stories. I remember one story where Jesus went into town and met with the important Grown-ups. He impressed them very much with his wisdom, and they told him how smart he was. I agreed with this story, after all, that's what grown-ups do. They tell children how wonderful and smart they are.

When I was about six, I went to Sunday school, and the teacher told me a story I had never heard before. It began "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the Earth..." She read the story without embellishing or explaining it, until she got to the part that said: "So God created man in his own image." She took an aside and said: "That means God looks just like a man.."

When I got home I pondered this. God looks just like a man. It had never occurred to me that God wasn't a man, so that part had me wondering. But eventually, I remember considering that G.I. Joe was created in Man's image. So G.I. Joe looked just like God.

I took off G.I. Joe's clothes. Somehow that was important. Then I considered where God stood before he made everything. There was no place to stand, sit, or lie down. He must be falling down from the sky, infinitely. I decided God needed a Jet-Pack.

Within the next couple of years, kids my age started to question Santa Claus. It was a rite of passage. You could tell who were going to be bullies, because they would ask a kid younger than them "Do you believe in Santa Claus?" If the kid said yes, they would make fun of them. By third grade no one admitted to believing in Santa anymore. Maybe some still did, but you knew better than to admit it.

In fifth grade I was standing in the lunch line, and somebody said something about God. I said "Aw, come on, nobody believes in God anymore." I believed it. Seemed like disbelieving in God was in the same vein as Santa. But the kid who had been talking got really upset. Called me stupid, etc. Then he started going up and down the lunch line asking kids if they believed in God. They all said they did. I was astonished, but also embarrassed. I tried to back away from my statement. I admitted I had been wrong. People clearly DID believe in God.

It wasn't good enough.

I apologised. That wasn't good enough either.

Out on the playground this kid and two others kept pulling other kids over to where I was, and having them tell me they believed in God. Eventually it was clear that they had gotten everyone to do it. Except girls. They didn't ask any girls.

Anyway, when it was clear that I was the only one that didn't believe in God, two of them pulled my arms back through the monkey bars, while the third one punched me out. I don't remember how it ended. But they were still teasing me when we got to class. The teacher stopped it. God bless her.

When I was in sixth grade, someone said the word "atheist." I asked what it meant. They said it was someone who didn't believe in God.

Click. That's me. And I'm not alone. Somewhere there are other people who don't believe.

* from what source(s) does our morality spring?*

The same place everyone's morality springs from. Assuming there's no God, then theists didn't get it from him either.

* confrontations with people of a religious faith.

Covered above. But I could go on, of course.

* if we feel alone without a higher power or powers to guide us.*

No. But I feel outnumbered and alone in society, because religion is so dominant. I wish there were churches for atheists, so I could go and feel like I belonged.

* how we deal with death.

Death is only a problem for the living. I miss my grandfather, my father, my dog, and my grandmother. I put them in that order because that's the order they died in.

* how we feel about religion.

I think religion must be at the root of human intelligence. At some point we developed a conception of cause and effect, and it bothered us. Cause and effect is a chain, and you can follow it backward to... Where?

We conceived of God to answer the question of the ultimate cause. And we anthropomorphised it, because we do that to everything.

In modern context, an anthropomorphic God is losing favor. God has actually grown from a man who is short enough to be hidden by trees, to an infinite being that's beyond understanding. Math and reason gave us the tools to expand God beyond anything man-like. The bible is wrong. God didn't make us look anything like him.

[ March 23, 2005, 05:26 PM: Message edited by: Glenn Arnold ]
 

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Posted by Astaril (Member # 7440) on :
 
I was raised in a religion-free household, not atheist or agnostic or anything. Just raised. We were always allowed to make our own choices about going to church or Sunday school from the time we could speak, even if we wanted to go just because they had chocolate cake and grape juice for snacks. (Who, me? Maybe. ) I didn’t learn anything much about God as a child except that he was a big guy in the clouds who lived with my dead relatives and who liked live people to go to church every week.

After grade 5, I went to a Christian summer camp. Christianity was explained to me in more detail. I’d never had trouble believing in fairies, what was any different about God? I was told how to become a Christian by asking Jesus into my heart, and so one night I did. Another girl in the cabin did at the same time, told our counsellor and received great attention and excitement. I piped up and said I had too. The counsellor said “Oh, that’s good. Keep praying!” and that was it. I took this to mean I hadn’t prayed enough for it or had done something wrong, and she somehow knew it. Now I realize she probably didn’t understand what I meant, but to a shy, small nine-year-old kid, it was one more not-getting-picked-for-the-baseball-team incident because you just weren’t good enough. I didn’t even know what I did wrong. How was I supposed to save myself? This plagued me for ages.

I came home devout as anything, but obsessive-compulsive disorder soon decided to make my soul’s welfare its concern, and every few minutes, I would uncontrollably think “The Devil can have my soul unless...”. Endless conditions were added until I won every time, but it was constant for maybe a year solid. I got to know Old Cloutie pretty well, and told him off fairly often. (I was a brazen kid.) I also became vastly concerned with the welfare of my family’s eternal souls, especially my father’s, a stubborn atheist who expected to be dead within a decade from various long-term health problems (though he’s still here and alright, by the way). So I sold my soul in exchange for my father’s salvation one night soon after that camp, sitting in the bathtub and crying my eyes out for his sake. Not to the Devil, mind you. I knew he’d cheat me and I was too smart a kid for that. I sold it to God, and begged and begged him to take Dad’s soul to Heaven instead of mine. It seemed extremely unfair to me that anyone should go to Hell at all, when obviously it was only because their parents hadn’t let them go to a summer camp like mine when they were kids and that wasn’t their fault. Enter seeds of doubt about “Christian rules”, which blossomed fully around grade 9, when I took United Church confirmation classes. I realized this was not the religion I’d created in my head with the God of summer camp. After endless arguments with the minister, trying to reconcile the two Gods I knew, I quit. I half-heartedly joined a Christian group at high school but pretty much drifted away from it especially as over the next few years my atheist sister attempted suicide, my friend died of cancer at 17 regardless of early detection and every possible measure to save her including amputation of both legs, and my atheist grandmother died a long, drawn-out, painful death which tore my family apart. Christianity did nothing to help those wounds - it struck me suddenly how ridiculous it was to have a happy afterlife where the only way you can be truly happy is by forgetting the existence of those people who weren’t Christian with you. I didn’t want to forget any of them. I’d rather have burned in Hell with my memories of life and everyone in it for solace. And I guess if God ever takes me up on that bathtub deal, I might. Exclusive Heaven was and is an impossible paradox to me, though I understand that it works if everyone is of one religion. That's never going to happen the way most people interpret it.

Then, in my first year of university, I re-converted. I lived in a residence with some extremely amazing and intelligent people. One was a devout Anglican who I wound up talking to about religion a lot. It turns out Christianity is more complex than old-fashioned, prejudiced, Christian-and-Atheist-only farm towns make it out to be. And there are other widely accepted religions in the world. Who knew? I became fascinated with multi-faith tolerance movements and learning about different Christian sects. I decided I really liked the Anglican church’s lack of rigid interpretation in most things, and leapt back into Christian faith. Here was a church that would let me keep my childhood God. I got baptized at Easter, and was set to go.

I don’t know what happened exactly next, but somewhere over the next few years, I moved away from a Christian view of God, because it just didn’t work with my knowledge of the world, and I could and can absolutely not accept damnation of non-Christians for that sake alone, or any other form of religious intolerance in this world or the next. So long as no religion is used to hurt people or change them against their will, I have respect for all of them. So I let myself keep my own God, as I wanted to see him, and believed that all gods were equally real, and all were just faces of the same ‘higher power’. Even atheists had consciences as their higher powers in my view, and in this way, no person was excluded or damned for not seeing a certain face of that power.

Over the last couple years, I’ve lost faith in a higher power of any sort. I don’t have the arrogance to say none exists, but I’ve decided that the pure fact of Life is power enough for me. I do think there is more to the way we work than we know - the psychology of religion is a fascinating field. Heck, I’ve had an experience myself that will make me eternally doubt that what we see is all there is. But I don’t personally believe in a “higher” power. Other powers, maybe, or at least psychological stimulants and workings and certainly human psychological conditions and powers which we don’t understand at all (I don’t mean 1-900 psychics here, I mean abilities to process information subconsciously or things like the mechanics of near-death experiences and such). Anyway, the simple idea of life and the incredible balance and ways in which the natural world exists are awesome to me. Reverence for nature and all life has become extremely important in how I live. Appreciation for life and consciousness is my religion if I have one now, and it’s enough for me. I get a very fulfilling ‘divine experience’ feeling through being overwhelmed with appreciation for life and the beauty of being alive to see and love the intricacies of the world’s workings, and this happens fairly often. I do not believe humans as a whole are any more important or special or gifted than any other living thing, from a blade of grass to a tree or a dust mite or a cow. I’ve done some exploring into non-Christian spiritual ideas, and I would call myself a Pagan, as I really like many of their beliefs about the universe and nature as you do, Verai, but this implies a belief in higher gods most of the time, and I don’t need these gods to live a moral and happy life. I don’t deny their existence necessarily, but they are not a higher power to me - they are if anything simply anthropomorphized, not yet understood mechanisms, venerated by people who need a higher power for comfort and guidance, which is by no means a bad thing. Religion is one of if not the most important aspects of the human psyche’s history. Religion is a way to cope with the unknown. All things - known and unknown, tangible facts and abstract questions - must be coped with and fit into a worldview in one way or another once a person realizes they exist. Religion is a great resource for anyone who likes it as far as community, support and guidance go, as others have said here. As for death, it is a complete mystery to me. I hold no assumptions of an afterlife or of nonexistence. I’m content to wait and see. So in the end, am I an atheist? An agnostic? Independently religious? I have absolutely no idea.

Well, this was ridiculously long, like many of my posts (But no longer than Tom's!). Thanks for reading if you made it all the way. Umm..hopefully it was at least interesting? I think I answered all the questions somewhere in there - I couldn't separate them. And I need to come up with a much more coherent way of explaining that last paragraph, but I'm working on it...
 

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Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 
I just now realized that LDS stood for Latter Day Saints *that's right isn't it?*

I came from a sheltered household. I didn't realize that there were non Catholics in the world until I was like twelve. I just assumed that everyone was Catholic. Oh sure I'd heard about Jews, but what was a Jew? I didn't learn about other religions until I started getting serious about history and reading a lot of non fiction in my own free time (which of course lead in part to my growing disdain for religion).
 

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Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
 
Yes, Lyr, that's right.
 

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Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
 
Okay, I'm gonna take a crack at some of the original questions now.

I used to believe in God, Jesus, and pretty much everything in the Christian religion. I went to church 3 times a week. Yes, truly. I think a combination of things caused me to fall away from religion. For one, my daughter was diagnosed with epilepsy. Her first grand mal seizure was at 13 months, and we truly thought she was choking to death. I remember being at the hospital over the course of 3 days and dying inside. I never blamed God, and I never cried after the intial seizure had passed. For the first time in my life I couldn't pray. Others did, and to this day I'm grateful for their kindness and love. I think that was the beginning of my falling away, and I honestly don't know why it began then. Less than a year later I began college as a 26-year-old, and was exposed to things I'd never been exposed to before. Before then, I honestly didn't know that one had the option not to believe; it was just something everyone did. I started looking at things from my heart and not just from my church's perspective, and found my true opinions differed drastically.

Over the years my heart has continued to turn away from religion. I respect those that follow a religion, and I think everyone has a spiritual path - mine has just become different. Instead of God, my spiritual path has turned towards that connection that all humans and nature share. I cannot say whether I believe or disbelieve in God. Sometimes the idea of God seems very unreal, and other times (though those times are getting few and far between) I can admit the possibility.

I haven't had confrontations so to speak with others. I've learned to keep my beliefs close to the vest since the one time I spoke with my sister about them. She didn't condemn me, but she didn't want to hear anymore, either. And that's okay; I can see why it might make people uncomfortable. Religion isn't really a subject my family talks about anyway. As far as non-family goes, in my experience it's an exception when you meet a person in real life who's honestly just interested and doesn't have an agenda of conversion.

I don't feel alone. As I said, I feel a connection with every other person, animal, and bit of nature on the planet. I *do* miss having others around in real life that share my lack of faith, though. We live in a really small town, and you get to feeling like an outsider because you don't attend church. Church is really the only way to meet people here.

Death, well, I don't really know. I don't know what happens afterward, and I can't really hazard a guess.

space opera
 

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Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
 
I've thought since I saw this thread about how to express myself about my beliefs and I think I'm going to give it a shot.

It’s in two parts and is extremely long. Sorry .

Part I: England

Unlike many people here, nothing turned me away from religion. Both my parents and all but one of my living grandparents are atheists, my father with a strong wariness of religion that borders on intolerance. He was very uncomfortable to find that my grandfather has found religion in his old age. I was also uncomfortable, although I don't really know my paternal grandfather at all. God has never really been part of my family and to find him suddenly there was a bit of a shock.

Anyway. Despite this atheist family atmosphere, I attended a Christian school, primarily because it was closest. Here's where it gets a bit complicated.

I have a brother three years older than me. I was strongly influenced by him for much of my early childhood. He was (and is, I believe) totally atheist, and very strong minded. Every morning, we gathered in the Hall for morning the morning recitation of the Lord's Prayer. (I still know it. It still envokes strong memories whenever I hear it.)

But my brother didn't pray. When everyone clasped their hands and bent their heads and closed their eyes, he refused. As I grew older, I refused too. I remember sitting and watching the entire school, their heads bent, praying. A strange feeling.

We also sang songs. I really liked that bit. There was a lot of music in the school, mostly, but not entirely, from a book called Junior Praise. I still remember bits of these songs that I haven't sung for ages now. I searched for one of the songs I remembered, and seeing these lyrics immediately brought the tune that I had forgotten back to me.

quote:

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Autumn days, when the grass is jewelled
And the silk in a chestnut shell
Jet planes meeting in the air to be refuelled
All these things I love so well
So I mustn't forget
No, I mustn't forget
To say a great big thank you
No, I mustn't forget.

Clouds that look like familiar faces
And winter's moon with frosted rings
Smell of bacon as I fasten up my laces
And the milkman sings.

Whipped-up spray that is rainbow-scattered
And a swallow curving in the sky
Shoes go comfy though they're worn out and they're battered
And the taste of apple pie.

Scent of gardens when the rain's been falling
And a minnow darting down a stream
Picked-up engine that's been stuttering and stalling
And a win for my home team.

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quote:

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For God’s sake, call it God. That’s what we’ve called it forever, and it’s so cheap, so self-promoting, to invent new vocabulary for every goddamned thing, at this late date.

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This quote rang true for me. After all, this God-person is all around and will be around for a while. Why not call what I look for “God” and have done with it?

But do I believe in ‘God’? No.

Answers to questions I did not already address:
-Death: When people die, their spirits leave and go away forever. They live on in our memories and whatever they left behind, be it something solid, or something that cannot be touched.
-Morality: All religion comes from the people, so all morality contained therein does to. However, this doesn’t make it right. My own personal code of morality stems from the same place as all the other codes before it. I update it every so often.

This has taken me a long time to write. I apologise for length.
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
Teshi, that is fascinating! Thank you.
 

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Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
 
Religion tends to frustrate me. The contradictions, the logical infalacies of my former religion.
The parts that just MADE NO SENSE. I couldn't stand it, how this minor thing was made more of a big deal than this extreme thing.
And it's still like this!
It makes me so nuts, I could scream.
So i have something that is a stranger mixture of karma and the like.
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
One man's gnat is another man's camel.
 

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Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
 
I just had the oddest image of a tiny camel with wings.
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 

 

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Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
 
Okay, I guess I'll take a swing at this.

why we never believed in a higher power or powers.

It wasn't really part of my upbringing.

if we once believed in a higher power or powers, why we stopped.

To answer it more specifically, my father is a very secular person with a very scientific mind. My mother believes in God, but she belongs to no denomination and attends no religious services. She believes that God exists, but her life is still very secular.

When I was a child, she made me recite a prayer before I went to bed. It was the one that begins, "Now I lay me down to sleep." As I received no other religious instruction, I regard this exercise as having been worthless. I didn't understand what I was saying every night, except that the line "if I die before I wake" scared the hell out of me and kept me up many a night. I suppose if I had been raised to be something, like Catholic or Mormon or Baptist or whatever, then all that might have meant something to me. But as it was, the words were meaningless.

As I grew older I became more fascinated with science, and lost any interest I may once have had in God. I developed a very rationalistic mind, and today I find myself unable to accept things on faith. As far as I am concerned, there is no rational evidence that God exists. That's why I'm an agnostic.

I'm not an atheist, by the way, because I consider atheism as unscientific as theism. You can't prove God doesn't exist, so to flat out say that it's true, without evidence, is irrational and unscientific. So I remain an agnostic, pending strong evidence one way or the other.

from what source(s) does our morality spring?

From my sense of what is beneficial and harmful to the community.

Humans evolved to live in communities, not as individuals. People who ignore everyone else and devote their lives to pleasing themselves are not just behaving irreligiously--they're behaving inhumanly. If we are to prosper as a species, we must be willing to subordinate a portion of our own individual existence to that of the community of which we are a part.

That means not killing people, not stealing from them, not beating them up or even shouting at them when they upset you. It means being honest so people know they can trust you. It means treating others with respect and dignity. Most moral beliefs that, say, Christians hold, I also hold. Ultimately, I don't think that's a coincidence. I believe these are basic necessities for human happiness, and any religion that was unable to acknowledge that would probably not thrive.

It's true I don't believe in any kind of cosmic reward system. But none is needed to nevertheless live a good life. I feel more pity than anger for religionists who think I must be immoral because I'm irreligious. I tend to think that they're really just admitting that they themselves are immoral, but are being kept in line by fear. What keeps me in line is a genuine concern for the welfare of my community, and of my species as a whole.

I'm not saying I'd try any less to be good if I did believe in God. But I am saying that just because I don't have any particular belief in Him, doesn't mean I don't understand and accept what good is.

confrontations with people of a religious faith

The only problem I have with the faithful is when they try to force their beliefs on me. I'm happy to have a discussion with a member of any faith, provided they can keep it at the level of "discussion" and avoid proselytizing.

if we feel alone without a higher power or powers to guide us.

Not at all. Some people take comfort in the idea that a higher power and their dead relatives are always watching them. Personally, I've always found that thought rather creepy.

I'm not alone because I live in a community. I have a family. I have friends. I may feel lonely somtimes because I don't have a woman to share my life with, but that's only one aspect of human existence. I am not alone in the world because I have people who care about me.

how we deal with death.

If you mean my own, then I'm certainly not looking forward to it. Yes, the complete cessation of all that makes me what I am is a scary thought. Nevertheless, I believe that's what death is, and the belief that there's nothing coming after this helps me stay grounded in trying to be the best person I can be in this life. I'm not preoccupied with what comes after, so I can spend my time concentrating on what's happening now. And besides, since I don't believe I'll retain any awareness after death, the complete cessation of my being is not quite as scary as it could be. It's not like I'll be aware that I don't exist.

If you mean the death of others, then I do tend to regard it as very sad. When people I love are no longer around, I miss them. But that alone is not enough to get me to believe in an afterlife. If I saw real evidence of an afterlife, that would be one thing. But just wishing that one could exist is not something I regard as useful.

The whole notion of an "afterlife" is purely a comfort belief, intended to make humans feel better about the fact that death exists. That your loved one is gone forever is a heartbreaking thought, and it can make you feel better to believe that you'll see them again someday, and never have to be parted again. That's why people believe it. To feel better.

The preceding paragraph is just my opinion, and I could be wrong. But since I believe it is true, then I see no value in trying to convince myself there is an afterlife. The cosmos is under no obligation to make me feel better when I get sad.

how we feel about religion.

This is a difficult one to answer. No doubt I've already gone too far in some of what I've said above, and offended some of the faithful. To say anything too blunt now would result in my being ridden out of Hatrack on a rail. It's not that I have contempt for the faithful. I've never been the sort to sneer at them, and concocting elaborate traps to lead poor little religionists into contradicting themselves is not a pastime I've ever regarded as valuable or interesting. I'm happy to let religionists have their religions for as long as they are happy to let me have my non-religion.

I realize that says nothing about how I feel about religion as religion. But it'll have to do, because I don't intend to continue this line of inquiry any further.
 

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Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
(I don't know, I think I'm in a mood tonight.)
Syn,
You've always got a lot of negative emotion that lasts you for the few seconds it takes you to show how angry and confused you are. If this is something that you actually care about, stop, think about it for a while, and write something that goes beyond your superficial anger. Think and write about your beliefs, about what they mean to you.

I'm interested in what you would write when you get beyond the "I don't get this. Why do people do this? OHHH IT MAKES ME SO MAD!" I think you've got a lot more to say than that (and I'd like to here it), if you can just focus beyond your superficial emotions.

I don't know, I'm probably just being a jerk. That's advice I've been wanting to give you for awhile.
 

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Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
 

quote:

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why we never believed in a higher power or powers.

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quote:

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Zilu asked about serving the ghosts of the dead. The Master said, "Until you are able to serve men, how can you serve their ghosts?"

When Zilu ventured to ask about death, the answer was: "While you do not know life, how can you [hope to] know about death?"

---

There are infinite mysteries left to be solved in the living world. Why waste time worrying about death when we haven't even perfected the way we lived our lives?

I did not read the Bible until I was in High School (I got my free copy by calling the 800 number from the LDS TV commercial ). The mystical episodes involving miracles and resurrection did not appeal to me.

Jesus the philosopher, however, I loved. I was deeply moved by Jesus' compassion towards the needy ("Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethern, ye have done it unto me") and I respect anyone who tries to live by his example.

Is it a contradiction to believe in the philosophy of Jesus but not his resurrection? I hope not. In fact, I would have even more respect for Jesus if he was a mere mortal and not the son of God. If Jesus tried to lead the perfect life without knowing his divine origins, perhaps there is a chance for us mortals to achieve that same state of grace as well.

quote:

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from what source(s) does our morality spring?

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quote:

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No matter how much they say they have morals (or a conscience) it seems tenuous and thin.

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I want to address this idea of atheists having less morals as a result of their beliefs, because it honestly never occurred to me before.

The idea behind it is most likely a mixture of the belief that all morality springs from God and the wild lives of some people who happen to be non-believers.

The latter is easy for me to understand, and resolve: Are immoral people immoral because they have no beliefs or do they have have no beliefs because they are immoral? Since I know a wide variety of people with great morals and/or strong conciences and very little theistic beliefs I know it cannot be the latter.

The flipside is also true. There are also plenty of people who are connected to God at yet are very immoral. From this, I get that morals are not connected to beliefs, or they may be connected to beliefs, but they're not connected with a particular set of beliefs.

Then there is the other idea: That all true morality comes from God. We can be close to God or far from him and we can be immoral or moral in both places, but we cannot be truly moral unless we are close to God.

If I copy the morals of a religious person, day for day, idea for idea, am I moral? Are we both moral? If the morals are the same, what is the distinction?
 

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Posted by Human (Member # 2985) on :
 
I'm gonna come out of lurkerdom to answer the questions posed here, 'cause I find it facinating, especially living where I do, where a lack of religion is extremely rare. So...here goes.

--Why you never believed in a higher power or powers?

To put it simply...it never made sense. I remember very clearly, around the age of three, being told about God by my mother, and stating very flatly that I thought it was stupid. I don't know if this was peculiar to me, but I couldn't touch him, couldn't see him, and he didn't seem to really affect my life that much. So why believe in him? My mother, probably wisely, never really pushed the issue. For a very long time I felt this way, until moving down to Southern Missouri and getting blindsided with the religion issue forced me to start thinking about it.

--If you once believed in a higher power or powers, why you stopped?

I really can't answer this question as it stands--in a way, I didn't stop, I started. Fairly recently, in the past two or three years, I've noticed what seems to me like the presence of a guiding force of some sort in our family, if not personally. Times when it looked like we were running out of options, in a way, and a new path opening up at the most needed time. But other than that vague, fairly unnamed and unformed concept of a higher power, I still remain something of an unbeliever.

--From what source(s) does your morality spring?

I'm...really not very sure. A large dose of parental teachings, combined with a extensive base of reading and knowledge, maybe. I do know there have always been concepts and ideas that have seemed very wrong to me, and I'm not sure why. I would actually say that Speaker for the Dead shaped my morality quite a bit, at least in being able to define it. I hold a very situational view to morality, much like Ender seemed to. I guess by that I mean that I don't believe that there are many, if any, black and white moral rules. Situation and concience is the main definition for me.

--Confrontations with people of a religious faith?

I've had quite a few clashes with the more religious among us...I think that's mainly a combination of being homeschooled in the middle of the Bible Belt. Many homeschoolers and their families seem to be more deeply religious than normally schooled people. Often one of the first questions I'd get asked was 'Are you Christian' or 'What church do you go to'. When you're 10 years old and don't have an answer, it gets rather uncomfortable. As I grew older, sometimes it would turn to attempts at evangelization, sometimes hostile reactions--and I'll admit, I got to where I started firing right back. It still pisses me off to no end to be attacked about my religious views, or lack thereof.

--Do you feel alone without a higher power or powers to guide you?

Sometimes. More often it's a loneliness that derives from not having some of the human and personal connections that comes from a church community. Especially in SE Missouri, it seems, church functions are one of the main ways for people to meet and congregate, even more so for people my age. I have often railed to the sky about the unfairness of it all, not like that does much good. But...insofar as a lack of connection with a higher power, I really don't feel it. If I'd at one point been religious, and then switched sides, so to speak, it would probably be different.

--How do you deal with death?

Heh...really, I try not to think about it. I'd like to believe in something like reincarnation, or the idea of Heaven without a Hell, but it never really seems to click. I guess, also, since I am fairly young, it doesn't come up in my mind as much. As for what happens after death, what might happen to the part of my body that is 'me'...I'm still thinking about it.

--How do you feel about religion?

That's the hardest question of all, for me. Personally, I admire spirituality very much, I wish I had it sometimes. I also realize that the divide between religion and spirituality is often very great. I tend to feel that organizing faith and spirituality, though it can do wonders for a community, ultimately ruins the spiritual element. I believe it's the unavoidable fate of organized religions to reach a point where the organization and the doctrine becomes more important than personal faith and connection with God(s).

I admit many great things have been done in the name of religion and God, but that is very much tempered in my mind by the much greater number of horrible things done in the name of religion, including the forming of a few personal wounds. So, in the end...? I think I'll paraphrase Ghandi. Organized religion? I think it would be a very good idea.

Well, thank you for reading this little journey into posting again...(you did read it, right?)...hope you enjoyed it. Human out.
 

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Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
Syn,
I've got no right to be giving you advice. Please feel free to tell me to shut the heck up.

There's different ways that things can constantly be on your mind. Thinking about things in depth, turning them around, trying to understand them, and even thinking about ways that you can go about changing them is one way. Another way is to have your thoughts in an obsessive-type rut. You think about the stuff and how it isn't right and it feeds an emotional explosion and then you think about stuff and there's an explosion, and on and on. There's plenty of motion and often some remarkable fireworks, but you're not getting anywhere.

I'm just one guy with an opinion he's probably not even in a place that he should be sharing, but you come across to me as far too often being in the second type. I'm likely wrong. I just want to give the advice that, if this is at least partially the case, it's not a particularly good way to go about things and there are better options that are well within your reach.

I know what it's like when the world, the way things are, hurts you. Every day, the world's out there hurting me, and I I think I may get to see it in more detail and higher contrast than many people. But there are ways to live with this and still have a happy life. I wish that for you, and if my advice doesn't help you towards it, I hope that it doesn't make things any more difficult.
 

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Posted by Andrew (Member # 7502) on :
 
Hmm...I don't even know what to classify myself as.

While being a reform Jew who regularly prays and has had a Bar Mitzvah, I don't know if I fully believe.

I mean, I do, but I've got about a thousand arguments to prove to myself God exists and a thousand to prove he doesn't. Would that make me like...an agnostic Jew?
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
I'd say that half the reform Jews I know personally are agnostic. They participate in the culture, and deep down have a reverence for God that's very similar to how they'd feel about a rich, scary grandfather they've never met, but otherwise don't buy in. I have no idea how prevalent this is elsewhere; my own evidence is purely anecdotal.
 

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Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
 
I'm at work, so I haven't read all of the posts yet, but I'm working my way through the thread.

quote:

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No religious experience, no sense of love or belonging. It was just a bunch of nice stories to me, but adding God to my life was simply a complication that I didn't need.

---

That was how I felt about it, too. I went to church with my parents as a child, and even spent a week at Vacation Bible School learning all about Jesus. In junior high we were asked to write a page or so about our religious beliefs and at that stage I wrote that I believed in god but also in free will, with the caveat that god might occasionally intervene and stipulate that event X was going to happen to person Y at time Z. It wasn't long after that that I found myself wondering why I had written that I believed in god.

One of my best friends at the time was a Young Earth Creationist, and since we were both excused from math we had plenty of time to talk about god, religion, and science. His talk of seeking guidance through prayer and so on left me utterly cold; I had never experienced any sort of external presence, I thought that people never really interacted with god, they just all faked it like I did. That was when I realized I didn't even know if god existed at all, or if all of that stuff in the Bible was literally true or just a bunch of meaningless drivel.

So I set out to learn as much about religion and philosophy as I could to see if I could find something that said to me "this is what you've always believed, you just didn't know it." Nothing did. These investigations took several years, through high school and right up through to my last year of university. I meditated and prayed. I studied karate, which on the face of it may seem unrelated, but for me it was very much related because it brought me closer to understanding the meditative aspects of Zen Buddhism, which is what I'd convert to if I was to undergo a religious conversion. However, like every other religion, Buddhism requires you to start with a leap of faith that I am unwilling to make.

As an agnostic I always said that if I had a personal spiritual experience that led me to god then I would become a believer. The years went by and despite my efforts nothing happened. My atheist friends (this means you, BtL ) told me to take a stand, and my religious friends (very few in number) warned me that I was on my way to hell (though always politely, never fire-and-brimstone). I always responded that my own soul, if such a thing even existed, was my own business.

A number of factors contributed to me changing my self-identifying label from "agnostic" to "atheist:"

• The incessant condescention, both implicit and overt, expressed toward me by religious people (friends, family, and religious groups on my campus) became tiresome. When my own mother told me that my father's example had made me into a heathen, and that she wished I'd had more exposure to religion as a child, I was livid. The implication that I couldn't possibly have decided such a thing for myself, that it had to be my father's nefarious, fatalistic-yet-atheistic influence that pushed me away from god, was quite possibly the gravest insult she could have dealt me. I love my mother dearly, and I know she didn't actually mean it (she was upset, and when she's upset she tends to say things that are irrational, untrue, and that she doesn't actually mean) but even so I'm not sure I'll ever forgive her for it.
• As long as I'm being brutally honest, the Palestinian issue is another massive stumbling block for me. I can't accept the truth of Christianity and Judaism because the Old Testament says what it does. And yes, I'm willing to appoint myself as moral judge -- if not me, then who else? If I convert to a religion that does not fulfil me morally, the conversion is meaningless. I discussed the issue with my Young Earth Creationist friend once, and the minute he brought up the fact that Israel is, in "fact," promised to the Jews, I resolved to never discuss the issue with him again. God is not a real estate agent. If god exists, what he has done to my mother's people by divine decree is beyond unforgivable. Call me shortsighted if you must, but I have seen their suffering firsthand.
• Homosexuality is similar, though sort of tangential for me because I'm not gay. The gay marriage debate, quite honestly, sickens me because I believe there shouldn't even BE a debate, and I believe it on such a fundamental level that I have a visceral reaction every time I'm reminded that there are people who don't share my "none of my business" view on the matter.
• I got tired of looking. I realized that I am perfectly capable of living a happy and fulfilling life regardless of whether or not there is a god, so I decided to set about living the aforementioned happy life and stop worrying about whether or not god existed. That was the biggest one.

quote:

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lack of faith is seen as a negative

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I do not feel that I am lacking faith. I have no faith, but I don't view it as a deficiency. Any more than I view my lack of cancer as a deficiency. That isn't meant to be a direct comparison, simply an illustration of the structure of the phrase. I also suffer from a lack of Lexus.

This may be splitting a fine hair, and maybe other people feel that faith is something they are missing. Perhaps phrasing the concept differently would remove some of the negative connotation?
 

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Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
 
I can see your point, C-E M, but I dislike the association of "athiest" with "lack of faith" for a different reason.

I have faith. I have faith in the human species. I have faith that most people are generally good. I have faith that we can overcome our problems as a society and that we are not doomed to utter self-destruction. And I feel that this truely is FAITH, just like religious faith, because it gives me the strength to go through the tough times, and motivates me to be one of the creators rather than one of the destroyers. It spurs my desire to be a giver and producer in counter-balance to being a consumer rather than simply "getting mine" and letting it go at that.

NOTE: This is not to be confused with agreement that "atheism" is a religion. I do not believe it is, but that is another debate.
 

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Posted by Erik Slaine (Member # 5583) on :
 
Here, here, KarlEd!

*applauds*
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
I've heard several people on Hatrack say that it bothers them that any term referring to atheists and agnostics seems negative. But I haven't seen many, if any, recommendations on a "PC" way to refer to these things.

There are those who prefer the term "childfree" rather than "childless". Would you prefer "faithfree"?
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
I think KoM uses the term "enlightened."
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 

 

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Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
 
I'd argue that atheists do have faith--they have faith in the nonexistence of God. There's no reliable evidence that there's no God, so believing adamantly that it is true requires faith.

But I suppose that's missing the point.

As an agnostic, I truly have a lack of faith, or at least I try to. I'm not offended by the phrase. I don't see the lack of faith as a negative thing, and since it really does apply to me, I don't see what's so offensive about someone simply saying it about me.
 

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Posted by Cow-Eating Man (Member # 4491) on :
 
KarlEd, I don't disagree. In either case, the phrase fails to portray the state. And yet it gets so much use.

beverly, I would prefer agnostic. I am without knowledge. (edit: I don't see childfree as any more pc than childless since it implies a burden.)

[ March 24, 2005, 11:46 AM: Message edited by: Cow-Eating Man ]
 

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Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
 
Beverly, see my post regarding faith. I believe that I have faith, therefore "lacking faith" and "faithfree" are both false labels.

Verily the Younger, I do not believe that I have faith in "no god". I do lack faith that there is a god, but that is not the same thing. I live my life without being strongly motivated by either presumption. I would argue that a sociopath has "faith" that there is no god. Someone with actual faith that god doesn't exist would use that tenet to decide their daily actions, just as someone who actually has faith in God would be expected to.

If someone says they believe in God, but they make none of their life decisions based on that belief, we say their faith is weak or that they really don't have faith in God. If someone makes daily decisions on the belief that there is a God and they try to reconcile their actions with this belief, we say they have faith. Likewise, if I had faith in "no god" I'd make my decisions by saying, "I need to do A or B, but since there is no God I'll choose B." I don't live this way and I doubt many others posting on the athiest thread do either. To me and many others whether there is some kind of "god" or not is largely irrelevant to our everyday lives. I don't think that can be called "faith" without destroying the meaning of the word.

[edit to add "the Younger" when addressing "Verily" otherwise I sound like I'm waxing Biblic. ]

[ March 24, 2005, 11:54 AM: Message edited by: KarlEd ]
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
KarlEd, I very much agree with you. Faith is a part of everyday life. Everyone has faith in a variety of things. If a human had no faith whatsoever, they would probably be institutionalized because they would be insane. We cannot function without faith. So, I guess when we discuss "lack of faith" it is a shortened form of "lack of faith in God" which is, well, wordy.

Verily, I am glad that you do not think of it as a negative. When I use the terms "nonbeliever" or "lack of faith", I am not thinking anything negative, I am just trying my best to describe and categorize. I am hesitant about using "agnostic" and "atheist" because I have my own ideas about what those words mean, and people tend to get touchy about which one I use to describe them. "Nonbeliever" seems... safer.

Edit: And I agree with Verily about the term "childfree" which is why I used the " ". I find that when people are upset with one term being negative, they often choose a word that is just as biased in the other direction. It doesn't seem right to require another to use a word that uses a bias that runs contrary to their values.

[ March 24, 2005, 12:05 PM: Message edited by: beverly ]
 

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Posted by ssywak (Member # 807) on :
 
Even though i'm trying to cut down a little, then, I'll give this a spin:

why we never believed in a higher power or powers.

I was raised faith-free in a mostly (but certainly not entirely) Jewish neighborhood on Long Island. I don't recall that I came across anyone particularly "devout" until High School (or, at a minimum, I wasn't aware of it), and even then, they weren't that devout.

My father came from a mixed Christian background, but is himself an atheist. Not as outspoken as I am, but still. My mother was reformed Jewish (you're right TD, I have found that being a reformed Jew is as close as you can come to not really having to believe in God, and still be welcomed at temple), but also atheist. And I say "atheist" instead of "agnostic" becasue they were pretty sure of their beliefs. It wasn't a matter of not really being sure about it. They knew. But they didn't push it (I, of course, do).

So, I was never trained to or asked to believe in a higher power. I've given it a great deal of thought ever since (too much, perhaps, though I read about the knowledge-base some of the people here have, and I think, "maybe not enough, after all"), and continue in my atheistic beliefs.

if we once believed in a higher power or powers, why we stopped.

=na()

from what source(s) does our morality spring?

How will my actions benefit myself, my family, and my society (in varying order of importance, but, overall, still trying to "first, do no harm")

Followed by an ever weakinging sense of "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you." Weakening, as it's now slowly changing into "do unto others as others have done unto you." But I must admit, I'm still too much of a bleeding-heart liberal to really want to screw over (most) people.

confrontations with people of a religious faith.

This one, I'll have to get back to.

if we feel alone without a higher power or powers to guide us.

You know, the existence of a real, ever-lovin' God would be really nice. It would be great to see my mother again, and to know that I could be with my family--all of them--forever. But, unfortunately, wishing won't make it so.

I feel as alone without a higher power as I feel broke without a $2 billion bank account.

And how would I be guided by something that doesn't exist? And by something that makes no sense, or something that's defined in so many contradictory ways that I can chose any path I want and find a means to justify it? I'd like to have Donald Trump and the Dali Lama as my mentors, but other than that, I'll have to do what I can.

I'll be leaving the other questions for later. I must get back to work.

--Steve

confrontations with people of a religious faith.
how we deal with death.
how we feel about religion.

[ March 24, 2005, 12:53 PM: Message edited by: ssywak ]
 

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Posted by theamazeeaz (Member # 6970) on :
 
* Why we never believed in a higher power or powers.
I'll rephrase this: Why we once did. Very simple, mom and dad said it was true, other grownups backed it up, and like the Santa myth, it wasn't ever something I questioned (until fifth grade.)

*If we once believed in a higher power or powers, why we stopped.
I stopped believing in God when I was ten. It was the beginning of fifth grade, and we were studying ancient American cultures to begin American History. One of our vocab words was "Origin Stories." I think we read one of them. The definition was a story people made up to explain how the world came to be. Anyway, my teacher suggested the whole seven days/garden of Eden story was a origin story too. I don't think he realized how much the power of that suggestion changed my life, or even that anyone would take it as an affront to their own relgion.. I never thought to question any of the stories that they told in CCD at all. I never considered how much I respected the Catholic Church as an institution at all, but when I was younger, I did imagine that God and my grandfather had nothing better to do in heaven than to watch me grow and learn. When I did think, the whole Adam and Eve thing seemed just as hollow and fake as the giant turtle carrying everything on its back. God must have been just another thing people made up, but nobody knew it but me. I didn't know there were other "atheists," or that there were other people who didn't believe in God. I felt completely alone. Around the same time I started to have trouble sleeping at night, guilty over all the bad things I'd done and lied about over the past few years- taking a "maid sign" from a hotel, playing with the neighbors in their washing machine, making stuffed animals do dirty things at recess, succumbing to my sister's prying and revealling her birthday present. I was really depressed and cried quite about. The no God thing wasn't helping. I stopped singing in church, because there was no point if it wasn't real. I know the feelings lasted until well into December, because I have strong memories of feeling sad like that when I was riding home with my family from visiting friends to exchange gifts. I was sitting in the very back of the van, and I remember listening to the billboard tape we had, with little drummer boy, wondering if Christmas was for me.
I eventually found solace in books. The Animorphs series, actually. I had been getting them in the book order. If I read them and reread them at night, I wouldn't feel so lonely, and upset. I became obsessed with the series and ended up secretly reading them at night for a couple years. What the books did was kept me distracted at night. Even though the obsession was a little bit unhealthy, if I didn't hate myself while lying in bed, I could begin to live my life again. And I did.
So what about the whole God thing? After a year, I began to sing in church again- believing what you sang wasn't a prerequisite for singing. I was also learning to follow music playing the durms, and liked to look at the more complicated rythmns that made up the church songs. I wasn't allowed to quit CCD, so I couldn't be a brat about that. Since I didn't want anyone to know that God wasn't really real, I pretended like I believed all the CCD stuff. I knew that surving CCD meant playing along. Sulking for two hours wasn't going to get me through anything, and so like one of the above posters, I learned more of the stories than many of the believers.
I think after the initial shock I didn't dwell on my beliefs too much over the years. Even so, I won't "come back" to religion. I've been an outside observer of religion enough that I would never immerse myself in my relgion. Unless God himself comes and yells at me, which won't happen anyway, seeing as he doesn't exist. In the end I had worked out why I didn't believe in God, but my thinking refined itself to this: God didn't create man. Man created God.

* From what source(s) does our morality spring?*
Morality springs from the self, and what you want in the world. You are your own watchdog. Period.
I said before I think Man created God. Why? Because man needed a mechanism to get other people to behave. Think about it. God is this all-knowing being, knows what you do, what you think and say, even when you are alone. If a tree falls in the forest, God will hear the noise. You screw up, you don't go to heaven. As a result people may behave when no one is there, not because God sees them as bad, but because God will see them as good. For shallow people with no good excuse or personal marker on how to "behave," this helps. For moral people who are religious at the same time, God is there, but they don't believe something is wrong just because of the church, but because they agree. A good three-quarters of the time, the church's moral stance is what I would say anyway. But in reality, it's not God who's watching you, it's you. And it always was. But there's one problem: who defines what is good and bad? The ten commandments(not the God parts, the lying and killing is bad stuff), the law of love, and the AA prayer are excellent general guidelines to live your life, and should be adhered to by everyone. Human laws help, although there are some stupid laws, and politicians aren't always the brightest bulbs either. But now the biggest factor I think about my behavior comes down to honor, and reputation. Because you can't get inside other beings' heads, they can sometimes be as real as God. (as a side bar there's a kid's book called the Ashwater Experiment, and it's well worth checking out) In a word, I behave in a way that will continue to create the impression that will allow other people to conceive of me the way I want to be conceived. I behave because I want adults to respect me, and other human beings to like and trust me. People know nothing about me, but I try to live my life in a way that if they did know half of the things I did in my life, they would still like me. (I also think that if people know everything about a person, they get into a knowledge like Ender's and would like me unconditionally, in which case there's a context for my life, and no misunderstanding from any of my actions, good or bad).

* Confrontations with people of a religious faith.
Oh boy... I try to avoid confrontations with people, so many people don't know I'm an atheist. It's not something I advertise (I have many religious friends, and I don't want them to drop me because I offend them), but if someone admits that they are not religious, or an atheist, I will confess back (yay for this thread). Realizing God didn't exist was upsetting enough. I don't wish that upon anyone else. We'll start with my mom. She was raised Baptist (the only bible we have in the house is HER Baptist bible), and mom and dad had two priests at their wedding. She converted to Catholicism around the time she was pregnant with my little sister, because she, not my father, was taking us to church and CCD, and felt left out not going to communion. When I eventually told her, she said that everybody questions, and didn’t seem to upset. My dad on the other hand isn’t too happy. He has been a Catholic all his life, but never goes to church unless he has to, citing that his childhood as an alter boy and mom in the choir was quite enough. He wishes that the Mass was in Latin and alter girls be banned. Don’t get him started on Eucharistic ministers. He accuses me of thinking I’m smarter than anyone else not believing in God; he never hears me out. But we don’t talk about it much.
Even though I stopped believing in God at ten, I made my confirmation at fifteen. Why? Grandma. My mom insisted I do it so I could be somebody’s Godparent, and because my elderly grandma (who’s older than the pope and lives down the street) would be really upset if I didn’t and knew the truth. Mom really got me to finish CCD with that one. She’s actually so proud of that little punch line of hers that she passed it on to her best friend to use on her daughter who didn’t want to make her confirmation.

* if we feel alone without a higher power or powers to guide us.*
No. I live in my head a lot (which I know is bad), so in that sense I am lonely. I guess I was upset and lonely at first, but that was over eight years ago. I accept that there’s no God, so it doesn’t bother me that he isn’t there.

* how we deal with death.
Death. I don’t like the idea of death one bit, but I think that finally knowing dead people, attending funerals and growing up has helped me to accept it. I flatly refused to go to a great-aunt’s funeral because I hardly knew her, and knew that I would see death, not a person. When I was 15, my father’s cousin practically dropped dead at age 42 when something in her brain went. The family was shocked, so my “first funeral” was my worst, because it was a very real death, not the “happy” funerals that come with the passing of the elderly. The receiving line for the funerals I’ve always been to stop at the casket where you can pray. When it was my turn to kneel down, instead of praying to God, I thought of the most powerful memories I had with that person. My stood up after just a second or two, but I really thought about what she meant to me and how much it hurt to lose JoAnn. When her mother, my great-aunt died, the funeral didn’t seem so sad. But what struck me most about the funeral was the excellent eulogy done by JoAnn’s husband. He mentioned that Regina was now with JoAnn, and Regina’s husband who had died over thirty years ago. Even though their deaths meant the end of their lives, it meant that they were all together in heaven. I don’t know that they’re really in heaven together, we don’t know death, but I think the idea brought comfort to JoAnn’s husband because the other half of her family could be “with” her. No one likes the idea of death, but it doesn’t bother me like it used to.

* how we feel about religion. I still hold on to the some tenants of Catholicism. When they made me do confession for Conformation, it was comforting: I think the priest has heard it all, and even though I confessed the least personal sins, his sympathy was real. I still have to go to church on holidays. I take communion: it would be weird if I don’t when everyone else does. I even enjoy fighting for the Catholic side against Protestant friends. But I don’t enjoy church itself. Seeing people is nice, so are the post mass donuts, but God isn’t a real part of my life.
I think dying for religion has got to be one of the stupidest things out there. Nobody knows the truth, for me, my life philosophy is something I decided on my own. I could be entirely wrong, so why would I start a war for it? I’d much rather agree to disagree with anyone. I’ll either find out God exists when I die, or I won’t know that I’m dead. I might even meet the giant turtle.
God and religion are things man made up to understand himself. Religion has gone too far at times, and been totally hypocritical and wrong, yet at the same time it builds a community and becomes a rock in people’s lives. It brings solace to those who have nothing, and while I’m not a part of that, I wouldn’t take it away from such people for anything.
 

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Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
 
*if we once believed in a higher power or powers, why we stopped.*
I'm an agnostic because I just can't believe an omnipotent, omnibenevolent God would allow such horrible evil and suffering in the world.
Perhaps I would feel different if I ever had any luck, but I rarely do.

The good die young. People stab each other in the back for trivial reasons. The rich and powerful get richer and more powerful, and use their wealth and power for obnoxious purposes.

I have read various apologia to explain the evil and imperfections in the world, but they are unconvincing, and irreconcilable with an omnipotent God, to my mind.

God's works in ways mysterious and wondrous to behold. Meh

C.S. Lewis claims it's because the Devil is in charge of Earth now, this is enemy territory. I thought God was all-powerful? [note: I saw this claim on a recent PBS documentary about Lewis--I know it's incomplete]

There are others.

Wow, I was depressed before I started this, now I literally feel physically ill. Too depressed to answer the other questions.

Despite all this, I hold out hope for a loving, all-powerful God, and for a Heaven.
I pray, usually for friends' happiness. I don't usually pray for my own or other personal needs, I consider that... weak? selfish? But I don't judge others for praying for themselves, maybe I should do more of that myself.
 

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Posted by Erik Slaine (Member # 5583) on :
 

quote:

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Oh, yes, well that's just great. A theory about God that doesn't require looking through a telescope!

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Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
 
I also wanted to add that I liked what KarlEd said. Atheists are not "non-believers" they are "non believers in God". The distinction means a lot to me.
 

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Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
 
There is no reliable evidence that God does not exist. An atheist simply believes it's true, without evidence. That's not stretching the definition of faith. That's what faith is. Belief without evidence. There's nothing in the definition of faith that says one's behavior must be influenced by it. It is simply a word to describe a belief that something is true in the absence of rational evidence.

How atheists use that in their daily lives is up to them. There are no tenets of atheism. There is no code of behavior that goes with it. There are no blanket statements that can be made about atheists beyond, "they believe that there is no such thing as God". And we only know that's true of all atheists because that's the definition of what an atheist is. Whether an individual atheist uses their belief in the lack of God to influence their behavior is their own affair.
 

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Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
 

quote:

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That's what faith is. Belief without evidence. There's nothing in the definition of faith that says one's behavior must be influenced by it. It is simply a word to describe a belief that something is true in the absence of rational evidence.

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quote:

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There are no blanket statements that can be made about atheists beyond, "they believe that there is no such thing as God". And we only know that's true of all atheists because that's the definition of what an atheist is.

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quote:

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One might argue that the term "Jewish" should properly be defined by Jews, and that similarly the term "atheist" should be defined by atheists. So, here are a few quotes from popular atheist books about atheism.

It turns out that the word atheism means much less than I had thought. It is merely the lack of theism [...]

Basic atheism is not a belief. It is the lack of belief. There is a difference between believing there is no god and not believing there is a god--both are atheistic, though popular usage has ignored the latter [...]
[Dan Barker, "Losing Faith in Faith: From Preacher to Atheist", p. 99.
Freedom From Religion Foundation, 1992.]

The word `atheism', however, has in this contention to be construed unusally. Whereas nowadays the usual meaning of 'atheist' in English is 'someone who asserts there is no such being as God,' I want the word to be understood not positively but negatively. I want the originally Greek prefix 'a' to be read in the same way in 'atheist' as it customarily is read in such other Greco-English words as 'amoral,' 'atypical,' and 'asymmetrical'. In this interpretation an atheist becomes: someone who is simply not a theist. Let us, for future ready reference, introduce the labels 'positive atheist' for the former and 'negative atheist' for the latter.
[Antony G.N. Flew, "God, Freedom, and Immortality: A Critical Analysis", p. 14.
Prometheus, 1984.

If you look up 'atheism' in the dictionary, you will probably find it defined as the belief that there is no God. Certainly many people understand atheism in this way. Yet many atheists do not, and this is not what the term means if one considers it from the point of view of its Greek roots. In Greek 'a' means 'without' or 'not' and 'theos' means 'god.' From this standpoint an atheist would simply be someone without a belief in God, not necessarily someone who believes that God does not exist. According to its Greek roots, then, atheism is a negative view, characterized by the absence of belief in God.
[Michael Martin, "Atheism: A Philosophical Justification", p. 463.
Temple University Press, 1990.]

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quote:

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There is no reliable evidence that God does not exist. An atheist simply believes it's true, without evidence.

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This is the kind of statement that starts arguments.

King Of Men's thread "Oh the Irony..." might be a better place to voice this, and see where it gets you.
 

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Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
 
Eh, one unreasonable fanatic per thread is surely sufficient.
 

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Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
 
<snort>

If only it were so.
 

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Posted by punwit (Member # 6388) on :
 
I've finally got some time to address these questions with the appropriate consideration.

"why we never believed in a higher power or powers."

I spent much of my adolescence pondering the question of existence. I would lie awake, staring at the stars through my bedroom window, posing questions for which I had no definitive answers. I went to church on my own, mostly varieties of Methodist, since that seems to dominate here in my town. Church and Sunday School quiet honestly bored me. I stuck with it for several years but I was never comfortable with the pat answers I was given so I continued to search. In my mid teens I read several books that spoke to me more than any church service I'd attended. Specifically: Jonathon Livingston Seagull by Richard Bach and Seth Speaks by Jane Roberts. I clung to this reincarnation philosophy for a number of years but I was never what you would call a passionate believer. Even when my passion with this "religion" was new it felt like self-deception.

"if we once believed in a higher power or powers, why we stopped."

As time has gone by I've found that I'm less concerned with the questions that filled my world as a teen. I would love to believe that we are everlasting but I seem unable to make that leap. I've found that cherishing my family and friends by letting them know how special they are to me has become my mantra nowadays.

"from what source(s) does our morality spring?*"

I don't think there is a definitive answer to this that encompasses a single wellspring of morality. Racial prejudice is certainly immoral and I've witnessed enough instances of parents teaching their kids to hate not to give credence to the concept of nurture and I feel blessed that my parents were very conscientious in their efforts to teach me right from wrong. On the other hand I've witnessed children raised in a prejudicial environment rise above the hate taught to them and become loving caring members of the community.

"confrontations with people of a religious faith."

I can remember several instance that bear retelling. There was a group of kids in my high school that were members of a Christian organization called Chi Alpha. They said this translated as Christ First. I was invited to a function at a sponsors home. We viewed a film entitled "The Sound of Thunder" The film depicted what would happen during and following The Rapture. It was quite a gloomy and scary depiction of existence if you failed to make the cut. After the movie there was an open discussion and eventually I was asked for my reaction. I made it plain that I thought the movie was a scare tactic. I also opined that accepting Christ into your life because you were fearful that you would be left behind seemed like a less than
honest commitment. I expressed the view that conversion or acceptance of Christ should be motivated by love and devotion. My views were not wholly appreciated. As a matter of fact I was literally being yelled at and accused of being a heathen and or worse, surely destined for the fires of hell.

The other instance that springs to mind was when I had a couple of LDS folks drop by to visit with me. I told them from the start that I was not a likely candidate for conversion but they insisted that they would enjoy sharing their love of God with me and hearing my opinions. After they had shared a bit about Joseph Smith and how he came to be a prophet because he was unhappy with the religious offerings of the times, they inquired as to what I thought about him and his theology. When I replied that we had much in common and that since I had my own peculiar religion that perhaps I was also a prophet, their jaws dropped and the conversation came to a screeching halt. In retrospect I should have respected their beliefs rather than having a bit of sport.

"if we feel alone without a higher power or powers to guide us.*"
Not really, no.

"how we deal with death."

I feel grief for losing someone close. I would like to believe there is something more but once again I just can't make that leap. I try to cherish the memory of everyone that has touched my life and is no longer with us.

"how we feel about religion."

While I've never been able to be a believer I find the whole notion of religion fascinating. I love to discuss it with people as long as they don't get defensive or condescending. As I've stated in several threads I believe that religion is a by-product of our inquisitiveness and our search for purpose. I believe that religion can be a positive force. I believe that religion has helped push us to be a more civilized society. On the other hand the ability of religion to motivate large sections of society can also be used as a weapon.
 

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Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
 
Okay, well, excuse the hell out of me. I thought this was a thread where we could voice our opinions. Apparently holding opinions that others disagree with makes one a "fanatic", so I'll just shut the hell up now.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
Verily, if you read the first post of the thread, I think you'll find that opinions were not solicited. That said, I think you were received politely, and contradicted firmly but without hostility. KoM's use of "fanatic" was, while a humorous dig at you, not as mean-spirited as it sounds; it's also a tongue-in-cheek reference to happenings on the Believer thread.

[ March 25, 2005, 09:50 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
 

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Posted by JonnyNotSoBravo (Member # 5715) on :
 
Really, you can voice your opinions on any thread. We just hope you're polite about it. If it only takes someone calling you a "fanatic" (which isn't terribly polite of them in this context)to shut you down, obviously you're not that fanatical.

Edit: I said "can" voice your opinion. Some threads, by format (e.g. the Begging the Question thread) should not have opinions. From the first post, "Specifically, we can discuss, among other things..." which does invite opinion.

Tom and I obviously disagree on what's polite. These are our opinions.

[ March 25, 2005, 09:56 PM: Message edited by: JonnyNotSoBravo ]
 

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Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
 

quote:

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King Of Men's thread "Oh the Irony..." might be a better place to voice this, and see where it gets you.

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quote:

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Eh, one unreasonable fanatic per thread is surely sufficient.

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quote:

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<snort>

If only it were so.

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quote:

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I want this thread to be a place for those without a belief in a higher power. This is a thread for the atheists and the agnostics to talk about their lack of religious belief.

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quote:

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There is no reliable evidence that God does not exist. An atheist simply believes it's true, without evidence." is not provocative, not on a thread about atheism and agnosticsim.

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And how would it be recieved to tell theists (in a thread for theists) that there is no evidence FOR the existence of God?

In fact, there is a tremendous amount of evidence that there is no god. Which is exactly what is being discussed in the "Irony" thread. Not proof, evidence.
 

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Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
 
I thought about it, and maybe it is a little provocative. Not to me, but I see how it could be taken that way.
 

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Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
 
I just think we weren't expecting the Agnostics to turn on the Atheists.

That said, I'm an Atheist with no active disbeief in God, and your remark earlier that sparked the controversy, Verily, was way off the mark, an Glenn pointed out.
 

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Posted by ssywak (Member # 807) on :
 
Maybe if Verily had put it in a different way, we wouldn't have gotten so upset.

<<SPOILERS>>

quote:

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There is no reliable evidence that the Easter Bunny does not exist. An adult simply believes it's true [lack of Easter Bunny existence], without evidence

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Since, as we know, the Easter Bunny actively hides from adults so that they cannot see him/her/it. Any Easter Bunny that is seen by an adult is, therefore, a fake Easter Bunny. Children, however, know--without any real evidence--that he/she/it really exists.

[ March 26, 2005, 12:54 PM: Message edited by: ssywak ]
 

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Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
 
So adults are abunnyists, but children are gnostic bunnyists?
 

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Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
 
Actually, children do have substantial evidence that the Easter Bunny exists. He leaves physical evidence behind, that was not there the night before.

The fact that that same evidence tends to disprove his existence to adults is rather ironic, when you come right down to it.
 

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Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
 
We also know where the stories and actions of the Easter Bunny come from. We have concrete proof that he's a myth. The same cannot be said for God.

As for the issue of whether my opinions are "appropriate", I have only one question. In a thread designed for people who have no belief that God exists to come and explain why they take the specific position that they do, why is it offensive for me, an agnostic, to offer my position, and no one else? I could hardly explain why I'm an agnostic without explaining why I'm not an atheist.

I fail to see where I was attacking atheism; I was merely explaining that atheism doesn't fit my world-view. The idea of Jesus as a divine being who could heal disease with the touch of a hand doesn't fit my world-view either. If I say that, am I attacking Christians? No, I'm simply saying that I am not myself a Christian. Only a Christian who was so sensitive that they get angry that anyone could possibly have beliefs different from theirs could be offended by that.

My statements were not an attack on atheism. They were nothing at all but an explanation of why I, a person with no belief that God exists, regard myself as an agnostic instead of saying that I'm an atheist. The way I see it, atheism is the belief that God doesn't exist, and I just cannot take my lack of belief that he does exist that far. I must acknowledge that I don't know whether he exists, and that either option remains a possibility.

Since the word "agnostic" was explicitly in the thread title, I had to assume that my position would be acceptable here. I did not interpret this as a thread for atheists to bear witness to the non-existence of God. It's not like I walked into a church during mass and said, "There might not be a God!" I could understand people being offended, or at least irritated, by that. But I maintain that coming into this thread and saying I am an agnostic rather than an atheist, and here is why, was valid.
 

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Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
 
Verily, we know perfectly well where the stories of the Christian god come from, to wit, they were made up by a desert tribe about 3000 years ago. And what is your concrete proof that the Easter Bunny is a myth?
 

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Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
 
Verily,

I really think you are over reacting to my statements. One, I pointed out that the definition of atheism you are using isn't the one most atheists use, and two, I pointed out that saying that there is no evidence for the non-existence of God can start arguments.

If I'd intended to attack you I would have used much different wording.
 

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Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
 
Sheesh, Glenn. He's trying so hard, won't you just indulge him
 

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Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
 

quote:

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I pointed out that saying that there is no evidence for the non-existence of God can start arguments.

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quote:

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King Of Men's thread "Oh the Irony..." might be a better place to voice this, and see where it gets you.

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quote:

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I actually intended that as a humorous dig at myself, not Verily, though I see where it was easy to misinterpret. Sorry.

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Scroll up Verily, he wasn't talking about you.

[ March 26, 2005, 08:40 PM: Message edited by: Misha McBride ]
 

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Posted by JonnyNotSoBravo (Member # 5715) on :
 
if we once believed in a higher power or powers, why we stopped.

I was raised Catholic. I went to Catholic private school for 12 years, the last 4 at a Jesuit high school. Went to Mass each Sunday fairly regularly, and on Fridays as well during grade school. Never had a religious experience. I did pray now and then, mostly as a means of emotional relief, although sometimes to get out of a mess in which I'd become mired. I never got an answer, but then I'm not sure I expected one.

I guess sometime in high school is when I realized I was agnostic. I don't think I have it all settled in my head right now, and my ideas about why I'm agnostic are still evolving, but I'll tell you what my beliefs are right now.

Basically, for me, religion and belief in a higher power is wish fulfillment. Take the big three monotheistic religions (Christianity, Islam and Judaism); there seems to be one type of God. It is a god who is ubiquitous, omnipotent, omniscient and invisible. This bothers me. For the life of me, I cannot tell you why I should believe in that God vs. believing in some six-year-old's imaginary friend. All the powers could be the same. In some ways, the six-year-old even has an advantage because he/she could blame the imaginary friend for the mess in his/her room. I couldn't blame God for the mess in my room because that would be lying, which God doesn't like. There is no way to prove either being's existence, yet we tell children that their imaginary friends are fake and God is real. It would be better for me if God was real, and the six-year-old would be happier if his/her friend were real as well.

We want God to be real to protect us, to give us hope, to inspire us. We want the guilty to be punished in hell, we want the virtuous to thrive, and we want to be forgiven when we do something wrong. We don't want our morality to be based on something boring like efficiency of the community; we'd rather have a romantic reason why we do things. I think that is part of why the stories in the Bible are so powerful and maybe why Jesus taught in parables. I believe it also might be why we like to use adages and proverbs as explanations for what we do. If I started quoting statistics and probabilities as reasons for doing things, people would grudgingly agree but they would probably prefer "conventional wisdom". They prefer risk. How many movies have you seen where doing the safe thing was glorified? Not very many, if any. That would be boring.

We want to go on after death, or not really die. It's an innate survival instinct. We want to spend all of eternity with our loved ones. I believe that most who've experienced death want that.

We want to know what the causes of things are, how things began, how things will turn out. God and religion do all that for us.

To use The Matrix as an analogy, I think it's the difference between taking the blue pill and the red pill. The blue pill is a more comfortable life, although definitely not perfect. The red pill is what Aristotle calls "the examined life" and it's messy. I hated the real world (offline) scenes in the movie. What made it tolerable was looking forward to Neo (the Messiah) doing his stuff. The parts I loved the best were the fantastic fight scenes and Neo's amazing powers in the blue pill world. Yet I've chosen the red pill. It's a philosophical decision, and even though Cypher was portrayed as evil in the movie, I can't say he was wrong to choose to be reinserted.

from what source(s) does our morality spring?*

From efficiency. From wanting not to be scared every minute of the day that we'll be beaten, tortured, raped, lied to, stolen from, cheated on and cheated. One way to do that is to hope that the people who might do these things to us do not want those same things done to them. So we agree to behave civilly. It makes it easier to go down to the supermarket to pick up milk if you don't have to drive a tank, carry an uzi and pay more than what's fair at the grocery store.

Crime still happens, and the people who commit crimes are religious, agnostic AND atheistic alike. What causes crime (in the US)to go down is not how religious the people are, but how much law enforcement there is and how well people's needs are taken care of. Social norms can be followed more closely than the Ten Commandments except where they coincide. How often does an 8 old year old lie? Now how often does an 8 year old pee their pants? A lot less often than they lie, I bet. Yet what makes them not pee their pants? It's not the Bible saying they shouldn't.

So I guess I'm saying that civil, decent, moral behavior is a social norm. What a social norm is depends on what the society values. These norms can exist independent of religion, although religion does teach some of them and has norms of its own that are specific to its particular sect.

confrontations with people of a religious faith.

I guess I've had some confrontations with people on Hatrack, but also out in the real world.
My older brother has asked me where I get my morals if not from religion. It amazed me a little that he hadn't thought about it. He's not a dumb guy. He's gone through medical school. He's a doctor. But it's not about being dumb or smart; it's whether religion works for you. It works for him and he doesn't question it much. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". I guess religion either doesn't work for me or I tried to fix what wasn't broken and it broke.

I've been approached by people out of the blue asking if I've accepted Jesus Christ as my personal savior. When I tell them why not, they explain very passionately why I should. We end up being people who are trying to convince each other that our individual positions are correct, yet no one gets convinced. The born-agains and I were talking heads shouting opinions at each other.

if we feel alone without a higher power or powers to guide us.*

I get asked this by religious people as well. There's something to the existential fact that we can never really "know" one another and are stuck inside our heads, using Mediating Representation to explain the thoughts and pictures in there. I don't feel alone, though. I'm happily living in a co-op with 13 other people. They're my posse. We have nonreligious interaction and community spirit. We each cook twice a month and often all sit down together to eat. We have meetings once a month to talk about what's going on with our lives as well as house management.

how we deal with death.

Our time with anyone, with anything, with anyplace is fleeting. The passing of each day is sad. It's sad when old friends slowly drift apart. It's sad when you have to leave a beautiful vacation spot to go back home. Dealing with these things is similar to dealing with death for me. You just learn to live in the moment. Be grateful that your significant other is with you right now, even if they die or cheat on you tomorrow. Be grateful for running, jumping, skipping, hopping, tasting, smelling, touching, hearing, and seeing. Be grateful for your feelings and emotions. How do you deal with death? By living.

how we feel about religion.

The lack of a religious experience is the lynchpin for me. If I had that, I'd be posting in the believer thread. Those who've had one may be delusional, or I may just be too closeminded to have one.

Either way, it comes down to happiness. I'm happier without religion. Many more people are happier with religion. If I had a religious experience I might be happier with religion.

I get upset when religious beliefs interfere with things like stem cell research. I don't like when the Bible is used to demonize homosexuality when the Bible also demonizes working on the Sabbath and touching pig skin, which most of us conveniently ignore. I dislike holding the Bible up as absolute Truth when the Bible has contradictions.

Overall, I think religion gets used and abused in a lot of ways, but it also makes people happy. That's kind of the heart of compromise, making everyone happier.

Edit: removing the word male to describe the monotheistic religion's god. Also, I think I may have maligned believers by referring to the red pill as "the examined life". I think believers do examine their beliefs. They just don't come to the same conclusions I do and have more evidence (in the form of personal religious experience) than I do

[ March 30, 2005, 10:18 AM: Message edited by: JonnyNotSoBravo ]
 

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Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
 
Most of Christianity doesn't actually teach that God is male, you know. The more conservative denominations/theologians argue that male language and images are the only appropriate way of talking about God, for various reasons, but still believe that God, in Godself, is without/above gender. (The LDS are one significant exception to this, of course.)

Not really relevant to the larger scope of your post, but I thought I'd point it out anyway.
 

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Posted by JonnyNotSoBravo (Member # 5715) on :
 
Wow, I didn't know that. Thanks, dkw!
 

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