I was underwhelmed with Henry. In an epic story, I want to see birth, growth, and death, with an emphasis on the growth. It's really that simple. Henry struck me as kind of a small person, and a little unbelievable. Supposedly, he had read all of these great books and could quote poetry, in other words, he had all of affections of someone who should be wise, but in action, he was just another dude. I didn't find it believeable that he could go through all that he went thoughh and still be that worthless when he was twenty-eight, and even through his forties, he was a bit of a chode. The only Henry I liked was Henry at eight when he went to get some Ovaltine for the older Henry.
With Clare, I felt bad because toward the end, I got the feeling that Henry was seducing her in her youth. He was grooming the perfect little sex object.
The Time Traveling aspect was taken about as far as was interesting. It was well done, but it's a gimmick. A gimmick is nice, but I want birth, growth, and death. The characters were intricately drawn, they just weren't deep as people. I've read two pages of The Sparrow, and I can already tell it's going to be a better book with more interesting people making deeper decisions.
[ March 21, 2005, 01:21 PM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
It occurs to me, Irami, that your taste in books is actually surprisingly narrow. And I have to note this:
quote: Supposedly, he had read all of these great books and could quote poetry, in other words, he had all of affections of someone who should be wise, but in action, he was just another dude.
In my experience, the majority of people who've read great books and can quote poetry are in fact just dudes, and are little wiser than the rest of the population.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
What a perfectly egalitarian notion, Tom!
I just wanted to use the word egalitarian.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Egalitarian is an excellent word.
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
"just dudes"?
I thought we were all effete, bookish types with questionable sexual preferences.
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
I think a good book has a moralizing influence, and attention to a thoughtful character's decisions is enough to rub the dude off people. I don't know a lick about poetry, though.
quote:I thought we were all effete, bookish types with questionable sexual preferences.
But decent people. That was my problem with Henry. He was impeccably average. Instead of growing up, he grew older. I know that's what most people do, but I think that's pathetic and I don't want to read about it.
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
It must be very dissapointing that most people, even the educated, thinking ones, are still, in fact, just most people.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"I know that's what most people do, but I think that's pathetic and I don't want to read about it."
It never occurred to me that you were pretty much exclusively into the fantasy genre. Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
The thing is, I don't think they are. And I think that writing them as such diminishes the dignity in education.
Tom,
I don't want to read a book about some guy who works at a job, comes home, watches reality television, and goes to bed. Even if that's what most people are doing, I don't want to read about it.
[ March 21, 2005, 12:06 PM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Ah. You and I disagree fundamentally about the inherent nobility of educated people, then. Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
So it goes. I do admit that it limits my enjoyment of popular reading material. I'm not sure that that's a bad thing, though. On the plus side, I'm starting to get into The Sparrow Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
::shrug:: I guess I don't find it terribly surprising that you didn't like it. I'm quite comfortable continuing to like it even if you thought it was shallow.
Posted by just_me (Member # 3302) on :
quote: I didn't find it believeable that he could go through and still be that worthless when he was twenty-eight, and even through his forties, he was a bit of a chode.
I'm not sure it's a given that he was 'worthless' at 28, and even a 'chode' in his 40s.
It's been a while since I read it, but one of the things I likes about TTTW is that the characters weren't really 'special'. It was about 'normal' people struggling to make the best of a horrible situation.
****** SPOILER ALERT*********
I think the time-travel was more than a 'gimmick'... the whole idea was that Henry could/would have knowledge of the future, but couldn't do anything about it. He knew about Sept 11th, and was powerless to stop it. He knew when he was going to die, and couldn't do anything about that, either..
I don't think he was grooming 'the perfect little sex object'... in fact according to the premise of the book Henry couldn't make Clare anything at all... because he can't change things. He was doing exactly what he HAD to do to make Clare the woman he knows/loves in the 'future'.
***********END SPOILERS*********
I further disagree that the characters weren't deep as people... they were exactly as deep as the average person which, to me, is the entire point. The book is a fictional biography of 'normal' people in a very un-normal situation.
Anyway, that's my take...
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
quote:I further disagree that the characters weren't deep as people... they were exactly as deep as the average person which, to me, is the entire point. The book is a fictional biography of 'normal' people in a very un-normal situation.
I guess that's why I didn't appreciate The Incredibles either. This cult of the mediocre is a little bit distressing.
Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
Well, have fun by yourself up in your ivory tower.
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
I'll throw down some soap to the unwashed masses.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Throw money instead.
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
I think the advent of NASCAR and Bling Bling culture shows that they have money, they just spend it on crap.
[ March 21, 2005, 01:09 PM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Irami, not all stories have to be myths. Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
What's wrong with NASCAR?
Would you prefer Formula-1? Why?
Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
Because then you can have as little as possible in common with people who shop at Wal-Mart.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
In all fairness, I've got to admit that I consider NASCAR the new pro wrestling.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Ugh. At least pro wrestling has a story line.
Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
I find them both about as uninteresting as pro football or basketball.
Actually, that's not true. At least with pro wrestling, I sometimes go "Wow!" Even knowing that this is scripted, it is amazing some of the moves they do. It's like watching violent dancing. With steroided sweaty men.
>.<
But then they start up with the "story" and I change the channel.
[ March 21, 2005, 02:21 PM: Message edited by: AntiCool ]
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
quote:I don't think he was grooming 'the perfect little sex object'... in fact according to the premise of the book Henry couldn't make Clare anything at all... because he can't change things. He was doing exactly what he HAD to do to make Clare the woman he knows/loves in the 'future'.
If you have 14 years to seduce a good-hearted 6 year-old, and you can't do it, then I don't know, there is something wrong.
quote: I further disagree that the characters weren't deep as people... they were exactly as deep as the average person which, to me, is the entire point. The book is a fictional biography of 'normal' people in a very un-normal situation.
This is what I couldn't understand. This guy went out of his way to behave like a normal person, for reasons I can't understand. It makes as much sense as a billionaire volunteering to go work eight hours a day in entry level cubicle, just because his idea of a normal person works in a cubicle, and he wants to be normal.
Maybe people are like that, but I work because I have to, and as soon as I stop having to, I stop and do the things that make me a human and not merely normal.
I wish Gomez was a time traveler, with Charisse, that would have been a much more interesting story. Those two had some fire, even if they did have their issues.
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
Irami, if you're boiling down Clare and Henry's relationship to him seducing her as a child, I think you're missing the circularity inherent in the story. From Clare's perspective, Henry prepared her to be his wife. But from Henry's perspective, Clare prepared him to be her husband. Neither of them is seducing the other; both of them are what they are because of the other.
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
Also, your comparison of Henry to a billionaire inhabiting an entry-level cubicle is not very apt. A billionaire has power and influence by way of his money that an entry-level cubicle-dweller does not. Henry, on the other hand, has no more power to affect the course of his life than anyone else. You could argue that he has less.
Posted by Dragon (Member # 3670) on :
quote: At least pro wrestling has a story line.
NASCAR has one too, it just goes around in the same little circle a billion times.
I loved this book. I read it a while ago, and I can't even really remember why I loved it so much, but I'm sure it had something to do with Henry being such a nice guy. Sure he was "just another dude" but he was more than that too, more... I want to say kind, but I think what I'm trying to get at is that the fact that he knew what was going to happen and couldn't do anything about it was tough, but he dealt with it and helped to prepare other people for the future as best he could. Sort of cushioning the blow. And I like people who are "just another dude", because really, there aren't that many people who are "just another dude". Far too often we hear about people who are wild and crazy, have no morals, and use power to do terrible things. Henry could have become someone like that easily, but he managed to be a kind and loving person throughout the whole book.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
And I have to note this:![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)