quote:

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'Sit your asses down!' With those four words, comedian Chris Rock brought a new tone to the Oscars that network executives and sponsors of the Academy Awards hope will lure back a bigger, younger TV audience to Hollywood's biggest night. In this photo, Rock performs during the 77th annual Academy Awards in Hollywood

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I knew a great many people in high school who liked to listen to heavy metal music, punk, or whatever it’s called. “I like the message” they’d say. They’d wax rhetoric about the evils of corporate America and “the system”; communism was the economic theory of choice and any authority over them was clearly evil.

They’d say this while listening to their 15.99 CDs produced by the RIAA, in clothes that were specially designed to look rebellious by a large corporation that specialized in selling to dis-engendered teens, or clothes that they had bought from the Gap and then torn holes in, to show they weren’t part of the cultural norm. I keep picturing these perceived corporate villains they were describing sitting in their offices planning out their newest counter-culture advertisement that would sell these kids exactly the rebellion they were looking for. Mass-produced unconformity! Rebel against the corporate machine, buy at Hot Topic! Recording labels predicting the exact cash value that signing a “musician” who bit the head off of a live bird would bring, counter-culture brings profit!

To be honest, nothing makes me more wary of a truly dominate corporate America, than it’s pedestrian detractors. Not what they’re saying, but what they’re doing! We’re selling anti-sales, turning a profit on hating making a profit, and systemizing the money-making potential of anti-system ideas. Wow, chalk one up for corporate America!

Hobbes

[ February 28, 2005, 04:15 PM: Message edited by: Hobbes ]
 

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Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
 

quote:

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network executives and sponsors of the Academy Awards hope will lure back a bigger, younger TV audience

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Ha! The people with whom I watched the Oscars, an audience between 18-23 years old, perhaps the target of the changes was not amused at all.

No one liked the changes and we all agreed that the shunting of the behind-the-scenes awards was both rude and unecessary.
 

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Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
Well, yes, that's always annoyed me. That, and people getting into things I've been into all my life for about two seconds because it's "popular" and then proceeding to lecture me on it, but not taking my suggestions about what they might enjoy because, even though I know more about it than they do, I'm not "cool".
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 
I've had similar thoughts listening to a bunch of Goths, all dressed in black with similar makeup, complaining about the "conformists."
 

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Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
 
What gets me is the mass-marketed "Anarchy Now" symbols. Way to display your contempt for the market, little anarchists.
 

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Posted by narrativium (Member # 3230) on :
 
I just laugh and shake my head at things like that. Honestly, I can't see getting worked up about it. If fools want to think they're railing against some faceless, evil authority, let 'em. They'll either grow up, or they won't amount to anything. Either way, not my problem.

There are more important things to worry about.
 

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Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
 
People sometimes tell me I do not dress with flair or my own style. I tend to wear plain clothes, this is true.

But what every person who dresses to express themselves and looks down upon everyone else who does not neglects to mention is that I am clearly an individual simply from the fact that I do not dress to express. I wear what I feel comfortable or good in wearing. I express myself through my actions and my other choices.

I do own a few pieces of clothing that I feel do express who I am (my bright red jacket with black toggles!) but I do not rely on that one jacket to tell the world who Teshi is.
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 

quote:

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That was all made worthwhile by a single episode of South Park.

"Dude! You can't be a nonconformist if you don't drink coffee!"

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I loved that eopisode. I also liked the return of the Goths in the "You got served" episode:

Tall Goth Kid: I'm such a non-comformist that I'm not conforming with you guys. *to Stan* I'm in.
Stan: Great! *they leave*
Goth girl: Whoa..looks like we just got put in our place.
Bang flipping goth: Yea we just got goth served.

[ February 28, 2005, 04:39 PM: Message edited by: Dagonee ]
 

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Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
 
All of which simply illustrates that we really are sheep. We like being one of a crowd. Some of us prefer to be the bellwether, but it doesn't mean we're not still sheep.
 

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Posted by ssywak (Member # 807) on :
 
What we fail to realize is that we are all individuals!
 

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Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
 
Not me.
 

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Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
 
Goth served
I should watch that episode. I think I will.
I don't want to be a sheep. I'd rather be a wolf, or at least were victorian men's suits and carry a pocket watch because nobody does that.
 

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Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
 
The T-shirt that I see on everyone and most amuses me is the, "You laugh at me because I'm different, I laugh at you because you're all the same." I would see at least 2 kids a day wearing that T-shirt, most of the "conforming kids" worked hard to make sure they didn't have on the same clothes as their friends.
 

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Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
 
What's happening in this thread is exactly the same thing that all of you are making fun of, because all of you are making fun of it. So there!
 

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Posted by narrativium (Member # 3230) on :
 
Ah, but the difference is, we embrace our conformity. We are the same, and proud!
 

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Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
 
Not me. I'm a beautiful and unique snowflake.
 

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Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
 
It seems to me that some people see the swearing in public thing as though the 1st amendment was a *Requirement* rather than a freedom.

Like in order to be a *True American*(tm) you have to push the envelope. I think the founding fathers expected us to be civil, out of basic propriety.
 

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Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
 
Snow flakes are actually homogenius materials: they solid water usually. Just a piece of frozen H2O and they are all exactly alike All water
 

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Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
 

quote:

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It seems to me that some people see the swearing in public thing as though the 1st amendment was a *Requirement* rather than a freedom.

Like in order to be a *True American*(tm) you have to push the envelope. I think the founding fathers expected us to be civil, out of basic propriety.

---

I think its more that, swear words are just that, words. And if you use them a whole bunch, they lose their punch. If we use them a ton they will cease to be swear words and then, they won't be offensive, no one will care.

Even if that isn't most swearing people's intention, its a nice side effect of the trend and I like it, so I'm not complaining. There was a time when you'd get in big trouble for swearing in school or in the class room, now, in my school at least, you hear it all the time. No one cares.

Edit:

Good heavens, look at the google ads for this page! Hot Topic and Gothic Dating...

[ February 28, 2005, 07:15 PM: Message edited by: Alcon ]
 

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Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
 
Lip Service and Gothic Dating for me.

I thought today that I might try to go an entire day without saying anything but f***. Then I thought that might get old fast, so perhaps fifteen minutes of conversation with some friends would suffice for amusement purposes. I'm saving it for a good night at the pub or cottage as an experiment in the range of inflections I'm capable of.
 

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Posted by prolixshore (Member # 4496) on :
 
You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake, we have been over this twink.

--ApostleRadio
 

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Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
 

quote:

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Snow flakes are actually homogenius materials: they solid water usually. Just a piece of frozen H2O and they are all exactly alike

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Being wrong doesn't make you a nonconformist or an individual or anything but, well, wrong
 

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Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
 

quote:

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I think its more that, swear words are just that, words. And if you use them a whole bunch, they lose their punch. If we use them a ton they will cease to be swear words and then, they won't be offensive, no one will care.

---

quote:

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Snow flakes are actually homogenius materials: they solid water usually. Just a piece of frozen H2O and they are all exactly alike

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Wrong!! Snowflakes, virtually always nucleate on an aerosol particle and are therefore never pure homogenius H2O.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
"We’re selling anti-sales...."

You mean, like, the revolution will be televised?

Seriously, people have been admonishing other people to "keep it real" by, well, not particularly keeping it real since the dawn of time, or at least since they started putting brand names on tabs of LSD.
 

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Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
 
And selling t-shirts with Che Guevara's face on them.
 

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Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
 
Hee hee. That's my favourite.

Edit: Twinky's right! This is my 3000th post! How exciting!

[ February 28, 2005, 09:58 PM: Message edited by: Teshi ]
 

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Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
 
Yeah, I think every time someone buys a Che shirt or poster, Ernesto rolls over in his grave.

Happy 3,000.
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
My best friend and I had the same thoughts about this in high school...and we were states away from each other at the time.

We both noticed how all the non-comformists had "punk" hair, usually dyed green or red, and wore only black chothes.....

But they all still had their Nike shoes on.

Now they all wear boots.
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 
Doc Martens, right?
 

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Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
 
Every once in a while I use to see a group of Goths walking around town on a Saturday afternoon.

In Florida.

During the summer.

Wearing all black including an occasional trenchcoat.

Sometimes being a nonconformist means you have to be stupid as well.
 

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Posted by HesterGray (Member # 7384) on :
 
I was making a movie for class in which I taped people talking about a topic of their choice. One of the guys I taped said something like, "A lot of people just like to be weird for the sake of being weird. And they can dress all in black and pretend their family doesn't hug them..."

I thought that was pretty accurate for a lot of the art majors at this school. They all like to make edgy, controversial art with deep symbolism that no one understands except the person who made it. They like to play the tortured artist and be cynical about everything. They think it's good art only if it says something about the tragedy of human nature or makes fun of society. It seems like such an act to me. I don't think there is anything wrong with expressing happiness in art. It makes me sort of an oddball in the art department.
 

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Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
 
I like happiness in art. No, let me take that back. I love happiness in art. I love multi-colored tree trunks with leaves to match. I love large flowers. I love tranquil scenes. I love art that brings me peace, love, joy, and happiness.

I'm flaky.
 

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Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
 
Nope - you're a hippy.


 

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Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
 

quote:

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It makes me sort of an oddball in the art department.

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quote:

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So you're a nonconformist among nonconformists then?

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Something like that. Of course, not all the art majors are tortured artists, namely the graphic design majors, but I only had one class with them. If I was a music or education major, I'd probably fit right in. They seem like really happy people.
 

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Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
 
One of the old guys that runs my church calls it the uniform of nonconformity. Heh heh. Good one, boss.
 

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Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
 
quid, that's why I like Jackson Pollock's work so much. The one original I've seen was pure joy in paint.
 

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
 
It's why I like Annie's work so much too. She's such a sweetie.

I agree though, it raises another question in my mind, why did non-conformist come to be so synonymous with "unhappy"?

Hobbes
 

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Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
 
Sheep are happy.

Didn't you know that?
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 

quote:

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why did non-conformist come to be so synonymous with "unhappy"?

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Because you're more likely to be happy if you're content with the status quo of the majority; it makes for an easier life. A non-conformist, by definition, is not content in that way.
 

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Posted by Krankykat (Member # 2410) on :
 
Maybe not a bigger, audience...

quote:

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"I never watched the Oscars. Come on, it's a fashion show," Rock recently declared.

"What straight black man sits there and watches the Oscars? Show me one!"

Rock added: "Awards for art are f---ing idiotic."

---

quote:

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Sheep are happy.

Didn't you know that?

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quote:

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As the person who did the infamous interview with Chris Rock that sparked the Drudge Report-fueled controversy over whether he should be hosting the Oscars, I'd like to share a little secret.

There is no controversy. Let me explain.

When I went to the Drudge Report website Sunday night (Feb. 13), I saw it was topped by the screaming headline, ''HOST CHRIS ROCK SHOCK: ONLY GAYS WATCH OSCARS,'' splashed in the blocky font Matt Drudge usually reserves for a lurid Michael Jackson revelation or political takedown. I instantly recognized this as my article as filtered through severe reading-comprehension issues. The upcoming Oscar host had joked to me that no straight black men watch the Academy Awards. Now Drudge was paraphrasing it as exposé, making it sound like Rock was impugning the sexuality of all male movie lovers. It was like translating Henny Youngman's ''Take my wife, please'' into ''YOUNGMAN: WIVES ARE MADE FOR SWAPPING.''

In Drudge's posting, he excerpted some of Rock's dismissive jokes about the Oscars — that he had never watched them except when black actors were nominated, and that awards for art were ''f---ing idiotic'' — and then sprung his ''exclusive'': that because of these comments, unnamed Academy members were demanding that he be replaced as host. My instinct was to dismiss the article. Of course some would grumble at Rock's disrespectful comments. Many in Hollywood consider the Oscars just shy of Communion as a holy event, and some stars don't like the idea of their night being mocked. (Remember the way Russell Crowe just glowered at host Steve Martin's barbs in 2001?) It wouldn't be hard for Drudge to uncover a couple of cranks eager to vent. Heck, at the Old Actors Home you probably can't throw a bust of Myrna Loy without hitting an Academy member who prays every night for the ghost of Bob Hope to show these insolent upstarts how comedy is done. But the Academy picked Rock for a reason: In light of the award-show ratings slides of recent years, he'll attract younger viewers who think the Oscars is something their parents watch when they want to see Billy Crystal think of a clever rhyme for ''Thalberg.''

It only took a simple Web search to remind me that there's an interesting antagonistic history between Drudge and Rock. In March 2003, around the beginning of the Iraq War, Drudge posted an unsourced scoop that DreamWorks had asked Rock to refrain from making anti-Bush jokes while promoting his new movie, Head of State. Rock released the statement, ''I never met Matt Drudge, but if I see Matt Drudge, I'm going to take my red-blooded American foot and put it up his un-American a-- for trying to disrupt the opening of my movie.''

But this history didn't seem to occur to the rest of the media. Such was the pickup of this article (the Associated Press, CNN, E!, yes, even EW.com, to name but a few) that Gil Cates, the Oscar ceremony's producer, released a statement denying that he'd heard any complaints from Academy members, and averring that Rock's comments were ''clearly jokes,'' and he still wanted Rock for the reason he first approached the comic: his daring sense of humor. As for the insinuated accusations of homophobia, GLAAD — the Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation — said his remarks were clearly barbs toward the Oscars, not gays. So it seemed that no one was offended but Drudge.

It also bears noting that this wasn't the first time Drudge proved unable (or unwilling) to grasp Rock's humor. On Jan. 28, a wire story reported an Oscar press conference in which Cates was asked how he chose Rock to be host. After Cates began saying that Billy Crystal was on Broadway and Steve Martin was doing a movie, Rock interrupted, adding, ''Ellen DeGeneres has crabs. Jay Leno's got a gig. They got to the R's. Burt Reynolds said no.'' How did Drudge link to this story? With the ludicrous headline, ''OSCAR HOST CHRIS ROCK: 'Ellen DeGeneres has crabs'...'' Was this interpretation oblivious, humorless, or simply malicious?

When Drudge sensed that his ''exclusive'' based on my quotes was catching on, he pushed it further, heading to Hannity and Colmes on Feb. 14 to keep it alive. But his approach was more activist: He now warned against Rock as a horrible, ''lewd'' spokesman for Hollywood to the rest of the globe watching the awards. He cited routines from Rock's 2004 Emmy-nominated HBO special, Never Scared, pulled wildly out of context. In a bit about the freedoms in America, Rock says ''it's beautiful abortion is legal,'' which Drudge twisted to ''abortion, it's beautiful.'' Then Drudge disparagingly cited Rock's reference to ''weird white guys getting overly patriotic with their [f---ing] flag hats on,'' and snorted that Rock must find the flag waving on Fox News ''weird'' too. Rock's routine is actually about how patriotism after Sept. 11 slowly devolved from a pure, refreshing love of country into ''hatriotism,'' where some people used jingoism as a pretext to say they hated all foreigners. Which is not a far leap from wrapping yourself in the flag to silence a comedian you don't agree with.

Drudge went on to worry that Rock might drop ''f-words'' and ''spew hatred'' on the Oscars. But Rock is a pro. He never swore when he hosted the MTV Video Music Awards, and he's very savvy about TV's limits. He's a comedian, not a Tourette's patient. And who would Drudge find acceptable? ''They could have gone to Regis [to host],'' he told Hannity. Would Phyllis Diller be an acceptable backup?

Four days later, I'm still seeing this same story with Cates' same denials popping up in national and local papers. I feel partly responsible for this outcry, in that some of the offending comments came from my interview. But that's not what frustrates me. What frustrates me is that Drudge, with the overeager and unthinking cooperation of some of my peers in the media, has so widely perpetuated what is an absolute non-story. Because now Rock might watch what he says next time he's in an interview, and when an insightful, outspoken comic starts watching his words, welcome to the world of hatriotism.

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quote:

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why did non-conformist come to be so synonymous with "unhappy"?

---

quote:

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All kids need to conform in some way to something.

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quote:

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quote:Snow flakes are actually homogenius materials: they solid water usually. Just a piece of frozen H2O and they are all exactly alike

Wrong!! Snowflakes, virtually always nucleate on an aerosol particle and are therefore never pure homogenius H2O.

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quote:

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But do we need to sell them and tell them what to conform to? I think that's what this thread is really about.

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quote:

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Now, if they're 35 and still living in mom's basement talking about how punk they are and how "the system" will never keep them down- then we have a real problem. This rarely happens, however.

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I know someone like this! *worries* And he worships Michael Moore.

Oh, and for the record, I am a corn flake.
 

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Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
 
I love being a nonconformist. I wear a cloak as my winter coat. I grin crazily when everyone else is frowning. I weep when people are rejoicing. On September 11, when people returned to their faiths, I stopped believing in a benevolent God. When people waved flags, I wrote an article criticizing America. When those around me are proper, I speak in sensual metaphors. When they are crass, I become straight-laced. I don't trust popular opinion, and I don't like fitting in with the people around me. I actually fear it.
 

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Posted by MyrddinFyre (Member # 2576) on :
 

 

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Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
 

quote:

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Calling them "stupid" for it wont change the fact that some kids find some kind of meaning in hating everything.

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If you're referring to what I said, I called them stupid for wearing black trenchcoats outside in the middle of a hot, Florida summer afternoon, not for being Goth.

And besides, it was a joke. Didn't we decide that we don't need to add j/k after posts?
 

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Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
 
JG you are so cool...

Folks will do what they want to do. I don't care as long as they don't run around wearing white sheets.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
"I don't trust popular opinion, and I don't like fitting in with the people around me."

So you're like everyone else here, then?
 

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Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
 
My attitude is, and always has been, do what you like. If it happens to be something that conforms, oh well. If it happens to be something that doesn't conform, oh well, again.
 

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Posted by Astaril (Member # 7440) on :
 
Megan, I like the term aconformist for that; I forget who came up with it above. My question is, is selling mass-marketed nonconformity really entirely pointless, or are they still getting the basic idea in these impressionable teens' heads so that when they grow up a bit and realize their previous nonconformist years were spent being a conformist to mass-marketed nonconformity, they'll then firstly laugh at themselves but also go on to become aconformists, which are actually the real nonconformists? (Gah! Too many words with that ending in one sentence!) Does the marketing work in that sense?
 

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Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
 
First of all, I don't think all teens believe themselves (or want to be) non-conformists. A lot of things that used to be quite non-conformist have, over time, become trends and thereby things to which people conform (e.g., chains on clothing, multiple piercings, etc.). As to whether "selling mass-market conformity" is really pointless, I would say that the people doing the marketing are doing their jobs--get as many people as possible to spend money on their products (or their clients' products). For them, conformity is good (because it makes a particular product a "winner"). There have always been (and will always be) things that are in fashion; they change from decade to decade, and get recycled. I don't think there's any getting around that.

Uh...here ends the ramble. Let me know if any of that made sense, separately, or together.
 

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Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
 
How about:

True non-conformists are those who recognise that they occaisionally/often conform, and don't really care all that much.

AND

They are people whose sense of self is developed enough to the point that when they conform they still feel original.
 

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Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
 
I like it, Teshi, but I honestly still have to wonder about the value placed on non-conformity (and, subsequently, the negative value placed on conformity). Why, exactly, has non-conformity become such a virtue?

I'll admit, I do like to do things for my own reasons rather than for other's reasons. I'm not sure how that works into the idea of non-conformity, though.
 

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Posted by lem (Member # 6914) on :
 
Reminds me of the Life of Brian:

quote:

---

BRIAN: Good morning.
FOLLOWERS: A blessing! A blessing! A blessing!...
BRIAN: No. No, please! Please! Please listen. I've got one or two things to say.
FOLLOWERS: Tell us. Tell us both of them.
BRIAN: Look. You've got it all wrong. You don't need to follow me. You don't need to follow anybody! You've got to think for yourselves. You're all
individuals!
FOLLOWERS: Yes, we're all individuals!
BRIAN: You're all different!
FOLLOWERS: Yes, we are all different!
DENNIS: I'm not.

---

I love Dennis--platonically!! His line is my favorite in the movie.

[ March 02, 2005, 11:28 AM: Message edited by: lem ]
 

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Posted by Ben (Member # 6117) on :
 
I was one of those kids who (did not tap into the fashion end of things but) listened to the music and preached the evils of our current society, To some extent i still do. Nathan Gray made an interesting point in the liner notes of his bands first full length. he pointed out that not too many forty year olds will be "out on the floor, f**king shit up". Hardcore, to which he was referring to, is a youth driven movement. It's not meant to be accepted by all walks of life. Even those of similar political beliefs and "more mature" methods of expressing and practicing said faiths and beliefs, are not meant to tap into the hardcore culture to which he's referring. It's not for everybody, it doesn't last forever, and it is not meant for the mass market. Do I think it's inappropriate to purchase your entire wardrobe at Hot Topic for the sole purpose of standing out? Yes. Do i think that these kids make their purchases with that outlined agenda? No. They are reflecting their disdain for the current fashion trends set by the powers that be in society. You comment on the frequency you see these outfits, but compared to the amount of GAP and OLD NAVY merchandise, it barely makes up 3% of the fashion you see kids wear today. Does it go unseen? Of course not, you remember it and comment on it because of the "obscenity" of the statement. It stands out. You can probably count how many hc kids you encountered this morning. You could probably describe those 4 kids in your own high school. Can you give an accurate headcount of those wearing more conservative duds from A&F or the Gap? My guess is no. These kids are choosing their wardrobe in an attempt to be noticed, not so much to show how weird and different they are, but in my experience, by getting somebody's attention you will then have better luck engaging in discussion. This movement was created to promote and bring about change in our current society. It will forever evolve and change leaving current members in the dust, as they grow up and grow old. It's not designed for everybody, but for the ambitious few. It may not change your mind or bring your attention toward the issue it intended to. It does however reach many people. Still very much a "miniscule" amount, but every head turned is a success in the eyes of these kids and others involved in that culture and movement. We all fear what is different to some degree. Whether we act based on our fears is something else entirely, but of course you will be made uncomfortable and view it as ridiculous if you are comfortable in your current station in life, but for those looking for quick drastic change, this lifestyle presents such opportunities. By first changing their clothes to reflect their mood/outlook on their current society, kids can later engage others in discussions to address the issues most troublesome to them. That's not to say that is the motivation for all, but it is for many.

i have not reread what i typed and fear it may not be coherent, but i have spoken with many people about this issue, some in the movement, some who dress in the fashions addressed here, and some who have no desire whatsoever to tap into that culture, and it drains me each and everytime.

that is all...

[ March 02, 2005, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: Ben ]
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
"It's not designed for everybody, but for the ambitious few."

I don't know how "few" you're talking about nowadays. In my day, we didn't have Hot Topic stores. If we wanted to wear dark purple bodices over ripped fishnets, we had to rip the fishnets ourselves.

Seriously, man, standing out doesn't take ambition. It takes a willingness to be seen, which is not the same thing.

I'm speaking here as a guy who was once a kid who was heavily into the punk scene, but never dressed that way because, frankly, I looked pretty ridiculous stuffing my bloated body into black leather and dying my hair purple. The look's just an ad, a shorthand; it doesn't mean a darn thing on its own.

[ March 02, 2005, 01:29 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
 

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Posted by Astaril (Member # 7440) on :
 

quote:

---

Why, exactly, has non-conformity become such a virtue?

---

quote:

---

I don't care as long as they don't run around wearing white sheets.

---

But... but... Toga parties are so much fun!
 

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Posted by Ben (Member # 6117) on :
 
i too was heavily involved in the scene (probably in a much later incarnation of the scene, old man) but did not dress the part. But did not feel that those who did go the fashion end of it were posers, but rather felt they needed that extra step. i don't fault it just because i didn't do it myself.

[ March 02, 2005, 01:38 PM: Message edited by: Ben ]
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
"But did not feel that those who did go the fashion end of it were posers..."

It's even simpler than that. I think the vast majority of people who do go the fashion end of it aren't doing it necessarily to fit in, but because they think it's a cool look that will help them stand out.

On me, it was not a cool look, so I didn't. If it had been, I would have.
 

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Posted by Ben (Member # 6117) on :
 
aha, i see.
 

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Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
 
The reason rebels are young is because they are relatively powerless - they do not build the system.

A middle-aged rebel is ridiculous because he is just as powerless then as he was as a teenager. That's not punk rock - that's pathetic. Tie your shoes and go build something, man.
 

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
 
Ben, I don't necessarily think there's something inherently wrong with wanting to stand-out, through fashion or anything else, I wasn't saying it was ridiculous to buy all your clothes at hot topic. I hung out with a lot of the kinds of kids I'm talking about here in high school, I know a lot of them, and what got me is not that they were wearing clothes to stand out or listening to music to be different, what got me is the reason they claimed to do these things was to stick it to the man, so they bought Korn from soundtrack at 16.99 a pop, and bought at another chain store to avoid corporate America. I don't know about the history of the movement, but all of those who I did talk to about it, that's what they wanted to show, they thought our system was broken and that all of those sheep were blindly feeding the machine through consumerism, and they thus consumed all the products from that machine that were marketed to show rebellion.

Hobbes
 

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Posted by Amka (Member # 690) on :
 
I think that is a good observation, Lady Jane.

I'd like to add that I think it might also be that teenagers lack a larger perspective than adults on many levels, and so their acting out against things they percieve as wrong with the world does not get very far. In fact, as talked about in this thread, it may very well support what they want to be fighting against. They simply don't have the experience yet to make appropriate distinctions.

If they had the perspective, maybe they'd work towards an education that would get them the knowledge and power they need to enact change as they grow older.

Please note, this is a pretty general statement and not meant to apply to all youth out there. I know there are plenty of young people who have initiated great causes.
 

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Posted by Astaril (Member # 7440) on :
 
Ah, but the middle-aged rebelman wouldn't *be* powerless, or ridiculous, if there were a whole lot of others like him nearby. Mass-marketed nonconformism (if enough people join in) is also a way people who want to stick it to the man and make a change can do so without losing the comfort of having a support group, which is a major advantage of the conformists.

Also, the standing-out/clothing factor probably is more important for youth as they aren't generally taken as seriously as adults and perhaps they feel this might help them publicize their ideals when older people won't listen by forcing the older people to see them in their symbolic clothing and know what they think anyway?

And, ummm...Tom, I don't really 'get' your reproductive colouration comment. Should I? (So much for first impressions of intelligence! I knew it couldn't last...)

Edit: And yes, I think youth also lack the perspective like you say, which relates to my idea above of them realizing later that they actually supported 'the man' by buying the products but then as they gain that perspective changing their actions to better reflect their position as well.

[ March 02, 2005, 02:02 PM: Message edited by: Astaril ]
 

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Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
 

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Ah, but the middle-aged rebelman wouldn't *be* powerless, or ridiculous, if there were a whole lot of others like him nearby.

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quote:

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Also, the standing-out/clothing factor probably is more important for youth as they aren't generally taken as seriously as adults

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Technically this has nothing to do with the position I came in here to advocate but then, Hatracks never been about sticking to your point . If a kid (by the way, I count myself as a kid) wants to be treated as an adult, brazen fashion statments aren't the way to go. Not that I'm saying you're necessarily wrong about this being the reason, just that it's not a very good one.

Hobbes
 

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Posted by Ben (Member # 6117) on :
 
As far as the clothing issue goes, Astaril stated the mindset for it's effectiveness with so much more grace and clarity than I.

[ March 02, 2005, 02:03 PM: Message edited by: Ben ]
 

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Posted by Astaril (Member # 7440) on :
 
No, Jane, then he'd be one of those teen rebels that's still a teen rebel and never woke up and gained perspective and realized he was actually being a conformist and so forth. But I know what you mean!

Plenty o' middle-aged rebelmen who spend money on other things and work to collectively introduce ideas of social change can sure move things along though... (regardless of in whose basement they reside)

Edit: And Hobbes, no, it's not a great reason. More likely it's that they really think they're promoting nonconformism that way, or else that nonconformism seems 'cool' to them and they do what it takes to be cool, not worrying about whether they're really upholding so-called 'cool' values, but worrying about whether their cool friends think they are. Which is unfortunate...

[ March 02, 2005, 02:09 PM: Message edited by: Astaril ]
 

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Posted by Ben (Member # 6117) on :
 
Hey Hobbes. Do you have the ability to turn your signature on and off as needed? This is off topic, but I've read posts by you before and sometimes the smiley at the signature just seemed to conflict a great deal with the mood and emotions in your post and/or those around it, and thus came seemed out of place every now and then. Just curious...
 

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
 
Well I type it everytime, so I suppose I could choose not to type it, but for 8000 and some posts it's been at the bottom of every post I've made, plus I do it at every forum, so I don't think I would ever choose to do that.

Hobbes
 

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Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
 

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If he's living in his parents' basement and spending his pocket money on CDs and Hot Topic t-shirts, he's still powerless.

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I don't know if that's true. Sure, there is dignity in striking out on your own, but I don't know how important it is. I mean, is there really that much of a difference between living in your parents basement and getting a cushy job based upon some morally arbitary relation, family or church or lodge or frat? This is murky water for me. My decision was easy, my parents were broke and didn't have a basement. But if they did, I've worked so many bad jobs for so many years, I'm not sure that any of them have improved the quality of my character.
 

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Posted by Amka (Member # 690) on :
 
Generally speaking, stereotypes are usually based on observations of real people.

Middle aged men who still live with their parents are more likely than their self sufficient counterparts to be slackers who contribute very little to society. As a result, they are not going to have much power to enact any change.

Certainly this does not mean it is true in all cases.
 

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Posted by Ben (Member # 6117) on :
 
i agree with Irami, i think. That man you observe to be a shiftless, lazy, leech, may in fact be involved in an organization or program that is quite successful in bringing about change. I may not feel that his current living situation is what i desire, but it's not necessarily as pathetic as some think.

[ March 02, 2005, 04:11 PM: Message edited by: Ben ]
 

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Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
 
Geez Tom. Everytime this subject comes up you have to go waving around your "I wuz hardcore" cock. Give it a rest man.
 

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Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
 
The system will not be destroyed by those trying to tear it down. It must collapse under its own weight. The pig who catches and releases his kid and friends smoking a joint does more for legalization than NORML. The lazy, inefficient worker damages corporate America more than ten protestors.
 

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