Personally I would grieve for months. Might stage a demonstration outside his house and know that the end was near. That would be a sad sad day. Thank goodness there doesn’t seem to be any hint of an end!
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
Very, very poorly. Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
ERRREWH??
Stop writing?? Crazy talk!
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
Weeping, wailing, gnashing of teeth...
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
It actually wouldn't matter for me that much, OSC's books have gotten progressively worse, lately.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I'd hope he had another job lined up; his family's got to eat, you know. Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
I would tell my husband, then it would be prettymuch life as usual.
Most of my favorite writers aren't writing anymore, and it doesn't bother me at all.
However, I don't think it's likely to happen any time soon. The man has one more child to put through college, after all. Posted by Sweet William (Member # 5212) on :
Well, if he quits writing to move to Branson and perform with the Osmonds, I guess I'd wish him good luck and promptly light my hair on fire.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
The EG movie is going to be like one big advertisement for his stuff.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
fugu, was the last half of that really necessary?
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
While I wouldn't say it like Fugu, OSC's latest writing hasn't been the same as the stuff I fell in love with before. I definatly like "early Card" more than "later Card". But hey, that's just me. Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
*covers face with hands* Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
It's not just you, Telp, but we are striving for politeness here, which is why (I think) fugu was scolded.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
I felt it worth explaining why I wouldn't. I don't consider it a particular indictment; in fact, I predict if I read some of his less commercial fiction of late (which I haven't done so), it would still be pretty good.
His latest "big novels", though, have felt like hollow shells of the earlier works in the same series.
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
Somehow, repeating and elaborating on a socially unacceptable statement doesn't make it acceptable.
-------
So, good. More for everyone else.
[ February 22, 2005, 02:10 PM: Message edited by: Lady Jane ]
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Why is it socially unacceptable to say, on an author's site, that his later works do not seem as good as his newer ones?
I ask this because my first post EVER on this forum, back in the BML days, was to point out that I thought Alvin Journeyman was an exceptionally weak entry in the series.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
I don't think what I said was particularly impolite, or impolite at all. Worse does not even mean bad; they are still in many ways accomplished.
However, ironically in some correlation with OSC's own positions on criticism, I tend towards the "call it as I see it" camp. I'm not trying to hurt him by saying what I said, nor do I think it will. I'm trying to give an honest evaluation of why I wouldn't care, and my reason for that is, quite simply, that his books have gotten worse (with the implied statement that they've gotten to a point where I don't have a particular urge to read them).
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
Tom: Because Kristine doesn't like it. That's really the only reason, but it's their site, so it's enough.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
If Orson Scott Card quit writing, I would assume he was burned out, so I would be happy that he quit.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Heck, even if I said a book was bad it wouldn't be impolite. An author's personal site in fact seems the ideal place to put criticisms of his works, and I would think he would welcome them, assuming they didn't fall into ranting, trolling, or the like.
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
Card has said before that he thinks the people who come to him at a signing and tell him which books they don't like are idiots - why would he want to hear that? That's like telling him which of his children they think is the least attractive. Based on that and what Kristine has said, I think it's safe to say that they don't like it.
[ February 22, 2005, 02:18 PM: Message edited by: Lady Jane ]
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
A signing is a place to come and hear the author, and is a place for honoring the author, and is a place to get books signed. The author's attention during the signing is extremely limited and necessarily focused on one person
This forum is pretty much completely different from all those qualities (it may be nice to honor OSC here, but its hardly a purpose) which make a signing a bad place for that sort of thing.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
My comment, to be clear, was because I would not say to someone's face "Hey, I really liked your earlier work, but I think the later stuff is a lot worse." As such, I also wouldn't say it publically somewhere where they or their family has a pretty good chance of reading it.
I have no problem with people disagreeing with OSC's opinions as expressed in his columns. I think he's putting it out there for discussion. (Although I would certainly hope we'd be civil about it.) But what possible good comes from saying you think someone's work is bad? It just seems hurtful to me.
I'd also be okay, I think, with saying you don't like recent stuff as much as older stuff. Maybe that makes me a hypocrite. I think it makes me polite.
-------------
For the record, I'd be sad if OSC stopped writing, but I'd consider it perfectly understandable. If he got to a place where he could comfortably retire and didn't want to write anymore, more power to him. I would, however, selfishly hope that he continued doing cons and book signings on occasion, so I'd still have a chance to meet him.
Edit: This was started before the last several posts came up, and so seems redundant. But I have to work now, so I'll be leaving it at that.
[ February 22, 2005, 02:23 PM: Message edited by: ElJay ]
Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
I imagine (and hope!) that if he retires, he would still do some lighter writing. Maybe he'd go back to writing mosty short stories!
Posted by Ryuko (Member # 5125) on :
I think I would respect his decision. I would be a little unhappy that the stories he'd started and never finished were never finished, but over time I'd forget.
I must chime in to say that I agree with fugu and Tom. I would have to say that of Card's books that I've read, the ones I liked best were Hart's Hope and Ender's Game. Although, Enchantment does hold a runner-up.
And I think that even though some might think it's rude to offer criticism when in someone's 'living room', it's also important to take into account the fact that an author writes for an audience, his fans being very important in it.
If I am writing for a specific audience, I will always take their comments more into account than I do a professional critic's comments. (This is partly because I'm not a professional writer, but bear with me here.) Because I'm writing for this audience, their comments have more weight, and therefore are valuable to me. In that way, I think that it's important to say what's on your mind about Card's work, wherever you may be.
Also, one must keep in mind the fact that he's a professional, and probably used to hearing such things said about his work. It's his responsibility to use these comments how he sees fit, it's not our responsibility to protect him from them.
That said, if you disagree, please say so! That's useful as well.
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
Hmm...I'm not taking this on abstract - whether or not a given author should like hearing criticism of his literary children. Based on what OSC has written about book signings and what Kristine has said about the forum, I feel very confident that they don't like it. It doesn't matter if they should or not.
---
For the topic, I have deliberately proceeded very slowly in my OSC book collecting, anticipating exactly this contingency. He's a generation ahead of me - chances are very high he'll die first. I'm saving his books for when I need something familiar and great and new all at the same time.
Posted by David Bowles (Member # 1021) on :
I'd figure he was going to dedicate himself to scripting video games and comic books, two much more enduring forms of expression... Posted by Ryuko (Member # 5125) on :
I don't know. I think that telling someone you don't like their books while they're taking time out of their lives to do you and other people like you a favor, that's pretty darn inconsiderate.
And it would be rude if someone came here and shouted from the rooftops, "OSC SUUXXXXX!!!!!111" or something like that. But as far as I can tell, the opinions that have been expressed so far are very subjective, and are expressed as such. I'm not saying that I hate what OSC is publishing, because if I did, I wouldn't read it. I'm just saying that I like the older stuff better in some respects. An author's style changing is inevitable, and some people may not like it.
Also, David Bowles, I don't appreciate your flippant treatment of a valuable cultural commodity like comic books. Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
Besides "worse" often means nothing more than "commercially more popular":
Edit: Comments after the colon deleted cuz nobody took the bait.
[ February 22, 2005, 04:06 PM: Message edited by: aspectre ]
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Like Elizabeth, I'd assume that he was burnt out on writing, and would be glad to see him move on to something else that he would find more satisfying.
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
Since all of Cards characters go until they die I figure Scott will do the same and the last part of his story will have to be finished by one of his children. Whatever story that would be.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
quote:Based on what OSC has written about book signings and what Kristine has said about the forum, I feel very confident that they don't like it.
You know, that might very well be the cause of the phenomenon I observed.
I think it would be interesting to take an (utterly unscientific) survey of random individuals who had read both Ender's Game and, say, Shadow Puppets, and ask them if they went "wow, that was a wonderful book" after each.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I'd try and take his place.... It is my dream to be a writer anyway.
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
quote:I ask this because my first post EVER on this forum, back in the BML days, was to point out that I thought Alvin Journeyman was an exceptionally weak entry in the series.
Really? I've liked Prentice Alvin and Alvin Journeyman the best of all the books in that series.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Prentice Alvin I liked. Alvin Journeyman and Heartfire, not so much. The author's tone changes, he hews closer -- damagingly so, IMO -- to his allegory, he throws in completely suspenseless courtroom drama (and what I thought was a leaden, albeit appreciated, nod to Hatrackers and Tolkien in AJ) headed up by a character which basically has no reason to exist, insofar as Measure does the same thing better as far as the narrative is concerned. And, most importantly, Alvin starts oozing towards the unlikeable.
[ February 22, 2005, 05:12 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Which character should not have existed? Was he unlikable because he was just too darn good? Too moral? It drove me nuts how overly moral he was.
Posted by Ryuko (Member # 5125) on :
I think he's talking about Verily. Which makes me sad, because I do like Verily, though I can't argue that he fills the place of Measure in many ways... :/
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Oh, I like Verily just fine. He just has no reason whatsoever to exist.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I love Verily. It's those irratating female dog like characters that annoy me. Such as the woman Verily and Arthor Sturt liked.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
I don't even buy his new stuff since the second Ender's Shadow books.
I have read nearly every book besides the newer ones 3+ times. Some I have read 4-5 times, and EG I have read 8.
I'm not saying the new stuff is bad necessarily, but its not for me.
So I would not even notice.
[ February 22, 2005, 05:30 PM: Message edited by: Xavier ]
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
If you compare the number of people who don't like Card's writing to the number of people in this thread that do, it's no wonder Kristine wonders if anyone would even care to meet him anymore.
Enchantment, Pastwatch, and the Women of Genesis series (Sarah, especially) are as great as anything written twenty years ago.
Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
*shrug*
I've heard it said that criticism from sharp readers who don't give a hecky-darn about your feelings is the writer's greatest ally. I tend to believe it, from personal experience, but as with anything, individuals' milage may vary.
I mean, look at George Lucas and Phantom Menace. Watch some of the DVD extras -- you can actually see it in people's body language around him when he makes a bad decision, but nobody says it, because he's GEORGE LUCAS.
Not that I think this forum is the place for people to dissect OSC's writing in a very critical way. However, it would be disingenuous of me to say that I'd tear my hair and roll in ashes if he decided to retire. I wouldn't be happy about never getting to read something new of his ever again, but I would wish him well.
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
I just love the idea that, say, fugu is presenting - the reason his writing style has changed is because he ignores and rolls his eyes at the people who say "You suck now."
[ February 22, 2005, 05:39 PM: Message edited by: Lady Jane ]
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I think Card just keeps getting better. So there.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
I love Pastwatch. I've always kinda hoped he would do the same story with different pivot points, imagining ways to change other historical events and what the consequences would be. I know it won't happen, because the set-up would have to be the same and I don't know how you could pull that off, but I'd love to see what other alternate histories he could come up with.
Posted by Puppy (Member # 6721) on :
quote:Since all of Cards characters go until they die I figure Scott will do the same and the last part of his story will have to be finished by one of his children.
Keep dreaming, Jay
Personally, assuming that an end to the novel-writing meant a change in his career, rather than an utter lack of income, incapacitation, or death, I'd consider it a good thing. Card thrives on new challenges, and burns out on things easily. Honestly, I think he'd be a lot happier if he got a chance to really try something new.
Why do you think he's spent so much time and money on theater/film/political projects? I think he's really sick of writing books.
(He hasn't said any of this to me personally. It's just what I think I've picked up by observation over the years.)
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
It's not like i think he sucks. It's just he's gotten so heavy handedly conservative in his prose. I was thinking about this on my way home. It's annoying even when liberals do it. What turned me off was the speech Anton made in Shadow Puppets. After that, I couldn't really finish the book, especially knowing how miserable that arrangement makes so many people.
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
Maybe it's the blanket statements that are irritating me. To say that it's worse now is to ignore those books I mentioned before - and the Card book I dislike the most and refuse to own was written fairly early. Saying it's gone from Great to Bad is simplistic, on top of being hurtful.
Posted by SteveRogers (Member # 7130) on :
If he stops writing then I will begin my reign as Mike Scott Card..........no one will know the difference Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
quote:he ignores and rolls his eyes at the people who say "You suck now."
I only said that if you said that .
Not to mention I didn't say that he sucks now, at all, and in fact specifically denied it.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
So true, Katie. So true. I don't like that book much either. *shudders* It's well-done, but the concept is just...
As for blanket statements, I stick by mine. I think he just keeps getting better. Posted by punwit (Member # 6388) on :
fugu, I think many are harping on your phrasing as opposed to your intent. If you had said, "I enjoyed his earlier works more than the later ones", you wouldn't be getting so much flak. The intent is the same but it may be perceived differently by some.
Posted by SteveRogers (Member # 7130) on :
I'm sure I could produce quite wonderful works in the name of Card.
Edit: Of course it wouldn't be near as good as the work of the original. And just for everyone's information I like all of Card's work no matter how it sizes up to his other books.
[ February 22, 2005, 06:00 PM: Message edited by: SteveRogers ]
Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
As Kat pointed out, some of Cards recent works are as good as anything he has ever written.
But if you look over his whole career, there have been quite a few flawed books.
I think that one reason people feel that his books aren't nearly as good as they used to be is because of comparing the books from the last 5-odd years to Card's entire career beforehand.
Posted by punwit (Member # 6388) on :
While I wish you unparalleled success in any endeavor you undertake, S.R. I hope we don't see any titles like this: Speaker for the Undead..........
Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
Kat and ketch -- which book are you talking about that you didn't care for?
Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
I think punwit has tapped it right on the nose.
Katie, I haven't gotten around to reading the Women of Genesis ones yet, but I bet you're right. I'm sort of burnt on the Enderverse things, though I love Card's dialogue in them, even when the story doesn't push my buttons. I started reading Shadow Puppets while sitting with my mom. It was fun until I realized that Petra main motivation seemed to be getting in Bean's pants so she could have a bunch of smart little Baby Beans. I can't explain why that should bother me, but it did.
That isn't meant as criticism of his writing, more as a statement that it was just becoming less and less the kind of story that pushes my individual buttons. I'm sure there are lots of great stories out there that lots of people enjoy reading that I wouldn't, or that I would have to be in the right mood for.
And there are also some really awful stories, badly written, that I unabashedly enjoy. It was bad pulp fiction that got me through those weeks in ICU, not Cormac MacCarthy or Annie Dillard.
So I admit I have no discernable taste. Posted by scottneb (Member # 676) on :
I am firmly in Lady Jane's camp!
I would be devistated if Mr. Card abruptly stopped writing. But, at the same time, I'd be relieved because I could finally catch up and read all his books (he's got about twenty years of writing on me).
Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
AntiCool -- I'm betting Wyrms. Probably becaise it has this big Wyrmy thing that, for some reason, our heroine finds really hot. Interesting world, really, but a climax that is not for the squeamish (or for me, though I claim not to be squeamish )
Posted by SteveRogers (Member # 7130) on :
[Quote]While I wish you unparalleled success in any endeavor you undertake, S.R. I hope we don't see any titles like this: Speaker for the Undead..........[Quote]
How about Speaker for the Dead Until Reincarnation????? Or Shadow Muppets??? Or Knee in My Side??? I would like to write someday. But with ideas that have boiled in my own head.
Just a question, how does the title President for a Month sound?? For a biography on William Henry Harrison that I've got in the works.
Edit: I started working on the biography before I read Red Prophet so before anyone starts pointing fingers, lets not be pointing fingers!
[ February 22, 2005, 06:25 PM: Message edited by: SteveRogers ]
Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
That would be one of my guesses as well. I own it, but overall it is probably my least favorite OSC book.
Posted by Puppy (Member # 6721) on :
Syn, I think that Card's issue in the recent Shadow books hasn't been "conservative" at all. It might bear some superficial ties to other conservative causes, but this whole child-rearing issue seems to be a personal one of Card's, not motivated by any larger political strategy.
Posted by Puppy (Member # 6721) on :
Grrr .... AGAIN I respond to a post on the previous page! Must ... get ... head ... checked!
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
<pun type="obscure indirect">I hear there are some Hockey players looking for work who could help with that, Geoff</pun>
Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
If not Wyrms, then my next guess would be Hart's Hope, since it more or less begins with child rape by a supposed heroic figure. I liked Orem. He was cool. But I had a lot more sympathy for Quean Beauty than most of the other characters, probably because we didn't have to read about her killing her child. But the idea of making your rapist immortal and giving him constant boils and diarrhea? That just... rocks.
Yeah. I'm evil. But that's not one of his stories that enjoyed very much.
Posted by SteveRogers (Member # 7130) on :
Its ok Geoff *pats Geoff on the back* you're not the only one that lost his mind.......and by the way......why don't you refer to your dad as dad? Just for courtesies(I'm sure I spelt that wrong; so how about just to be polite) sake....I was just curious......
Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
I really like and really dislike Hart's Hope. I'm not sure what it averages out to. Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
Man, I LOVED Hart's Hope.
Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
In other posts, Geoff has said that he doesn't want to sound like he's name dropping.
Posted by SteveRogers (Member # 7130) on :
quote:name dropping
You'll need to explain to me what that means. Because I have no clue and I'm not all that smart. Posted by Ryuko (Member # 5125) on :
I really liked Hart's Hope...
Name-dropping, like, OH, I know OSC in PERSON. In fact, I'm his SON, doesn't that make you want to LOVE me?
Geoff doesn't have to do that, because we love him for other reasons. Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
I haven't read Hart's Hope yet. I was guessing Lost Boys. It was just a little too real and too awful for me, and I will never read it again. Kinda like I thought Requiem For A Dream was a beautiful, touching, meaningful movie and I will never watch it again. Unless I had kids, in which case I'd show it to them around adolesence. As I have no intention of having kids, it's probably a moot point.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I am a believer in looking out for children, but what bothered me was the whole, "I am gay, but I am going to marry a woman thing." And the whole circle of life speach, and also the fact that Bean and Petra knew that was going to happen, but they went to that guy anyway. That just bothered me a lot.
Posted by SteveRogers (Member # 7130) on :
I get it now. Thanks everybody! And just for the heck of it.....*hugs Geoff*
Edit: I just wanted to clarify that I am not gay. That is all!
[ February 22, 2005, 06:47 PM: Message edited by: SteveRogers ]
Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
I have been unable to ever finish Lost Boys. That book hits waaaaaaaaay too close to home. One of these days I'll manage it.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
It was painful to reread it. Even though I don't have children, several parts of it made me cry, especially the end, which was not something I did when I read it when I was younger.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
I actually advised my mom not to read it. We're very similar in a lot of ways, and with how it hit me, and me not being a parent, I really didn't think she'd want to read it. That's the only time I've ever told someone not to read an OSC book.
(I read it while in college, and I cried a lot.)
[ February 22, 2005, 06:51 PM: Message edited by: ElJay ]
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Lost Boys is my favorite. It makes me cry, but it's my favorite.
Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
At least I've read the short story. That will just have to tide me over for a while.
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
I would say that Card's books keep getting more and more emotionally engrossing the more he writes, and consequentially more and more exhausting to read. He gets so far into their thoughts and emotions that it becomes quite a lot to work through.
I must say that his insights in all his "historical fiction" works have been pretty influential in how I think about those people and events later on. I still picture Sam floating around on a chair when I read in the Book of Mormon.
I do have to take a break from the genius-level conversation that his characters always have. It makes me feel like a slow thinker. Sometimes I wish Card would create a character of more average intelligence and perception---someone I could relate to.
Posted by punwit (Member # 6388) on :
kq, me too. That was the most emotional and poignant book I have ever read. I recommend it to everyone I can.
Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
Cried like a BABY at the end of that one. I was doing the post-partum hormonal thing, but , still...
I tried to hide my crying, and the hubbhy thought I was lying when I said it was because of the book. He cannot STAND to see me cry.
[ February 22, 2005, 06:57 PM: Message edited by: Olivetta ]
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
It's my favourite book too.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: I would say that Card's books keep getting more and more emotionally engrossing the more he writes, and consequentially more and more exhausting to read.
Really, you think so? One of the reasons I don't like his newer stuff is that his characters seem increasingly fake, didactic, and divorced from real emotion. There's not much "real" emotion in his books anymore, at least not as I'd recognize it -- not even in Enchantment, which I otherwise enjoyed; all the characters' motivations just seemed plastic to me.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I sort of felt that too. Stardust by Neil Gaiman is a good parellel for that book and I liked it much better for some reason. I must figure out why....
Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
Hrm. Enchantment I am going to disagree with you on, Tom. His other new stuff, I agree... the character's aren't very well emotionally driven. Enchantment, however, he definetely got into the heads of Jewish Russian Immigrants. I gave it to my friend Lena, (a Jewish soviet immigrant), who absolutely HATES fantasy and sci-fi, and she loved it... she identified very completely with Ivan, and said Ivan's parents were perfect extrapolations of people she knew in Minsk.
Posted by SteveRogers (Member # 7130) on :
Whoo hoo?? Title...good yes? President For a Month: The Life of William Henry Harrison I began working on it before I read Red Prophet but mostly I just want to know if you guys think it is a good title.........
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
The last book of his I read was Pastwatch, and that was some considerable time ago. It was okay. My Card collection is not among the books I've packed to take with me on my move. I do, however, plan to read Lost Boys someday.
That reminds me, though, that I need to pick up a copy of Neuromancer so I can pack it. It's been way too long since I read that one.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Hart's Hope is my least favorite OSC book - it didn't speak to me at all, didn't engage me or keep me engaged. However, that is the only one in that category. My favorites would include Pastwatch and Enchantment. I loved them.
I would be sad if he quit writing. I want more books! Besides, part of the reason I enjoy reading his books so much is so I can learn from the best. [/butt kissing] Cuz, ya know, I write sci-fi, too.
Would I want to meet him in person? Yeah, it'd be cool to go to a book signing. On the other hand, I've never been one of those types who are enamored of celebrities and such, so if it never happens, it's not a big deal. At least I get his books - that's way more important.
Edit: to correct title of book. Which just goes to show how much it didn't agree with me.
[ February 22, 2005, 09:19 PM: Message edited by: quidscribis ]
Posted by Puppy (Member # 6721) on :
Hart Song? Do you mean Hart's Hope? Or perhaps we should compromise: Hart Soap!
I don't refer to Card as "dad", like others have already said, because I hate the idea of name-dropping.
Also, not everyone who reads this site is necessarily aware that the guy named "Puppy" is Orson Scott Card's son. I think it would be distracting and confusing if I used a different name for him than everyone else. So I say "Card" and "OSC" and figure that most people will just read it and get the point without needing to stop and go, "WOW! This guy is Orson Scott Card's SON! Whoop-de-frickin-DOO!"
Or worse, "What's this guy talking about? What does some idiot's dad have to do with my favorite writer?"
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
There is a pretty obvious dobie of this that I'm not doing. See me not doing it?
*adjusts halo*
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
I liked Wyrms.
Not my favourite - actually, I'm hard-pressed to say what my favourite is.
Probably a cross between the Alvin Maker series and (oddly) The Folk of the Fringe.
If OSC did stop writing I would be kinda upset. I remember a couple of years after I had first started reading Card, I went to America (2003 it was. Washington).
We had a day off from this law thingy we were doing so I went in hunt of a bookstore. And there I found it. Rows and rows of OSC books that are out of print / not sold in Australia. It was amazing.
I bought 8. Sure, I couldn't afford dinner for a couple of days. But hey! That feeling - all these new Card books just waiting for me to delve into them - was fantastic.
So, I'd miss that.
( I love that feeling when you discover a new author, read one of their books, love it and then realise "Hey, there's an entire back catalogue for me to explore now!" )
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
I would be sad -- actually, that should be will be sad, as OSC will likely retire from writing during my lifetime.
While I don't read everything he writes, I look forward and devour most of his books. And reread his older ones often. While Wyrms is extremely intense, it's one I enjoy rereading. Hart's Hope, not so much. And Lost Boys I barely finished once, and will never read again (I alternated between sobbing and fury after reading the short).
[ February 22, 2005, 09:24 PM: Message edited by: rivka ]
Posted by Brian J. Hill (Member # 5346) on :
Personally, as a theatre guy, I wouldn't mind if he stopped writing novels if it meant he was going to focus more on plays. Then again, I have been patiently waiting for the next two Pastwatch books . . . and maybe a sequel to Enchantment . . . and more scripture-based novels . . . Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
I suppose I would eventually stop buying his books.
Hart's Hope is probably my favorite novel. I do not blame Beauty for what she did to Palicrovol, but I do blame her for what she did to his allies and her subjects. A Planet Called Treason was very enjoyable as well, although it is obviously a very early work. I will have to find Treason now. Taken separately, Treasure Box and Homebody were good, but when I read them one right after the other they seemed too similar. Lost Boys the book blew Lost Boys the short story out of the water.
IMHO, Card is one of the best short story writers of the latter half of the twentieth century. I suppose I need to read more short stories, but damn! The only author with such a consistently excellent output (edit: when only short stories are considered) of the last century was Saki.
Edit: I have not read any of the Women of Genesis series. How do they compare to his other novels?
[ February 22, 2005, 10:25 PM: Message edited by: Danzig ]
Posted by Fitz (Member # 4803) on :
I wouldn't be disappointed at all if he stopped working on books that were part of a series. I found that the Alvin books and the Shadow series both became extremely tedious. I haven't read the latest books in either series.
On the other hand, I really enjoy his standalone novels. Lost Boys is my favorite Card novel, and books like Enchantment and Homebody are a close second. It is my hope that when he wraps up his series work, he sticks to standalone novels. It's because of these books that he's one of my favorite authors.
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
I know not everyone is going to love everything I love, but considering I feel Hart's Hope is a masterpiece I can't believe there are people who truly dislike it.
Wow.
Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
I would have to second that motion, Fitz. Except for the Lovelock series. It is not just OSC either; most series longer than three or four books tend to decline in quality.
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
Yes, his stand alones are by far his best.
Danzig - True, but I fully expect Martin to break that streak. If only the fourth would come out already. Posted by Fitz (Member # 4803) on :
I fear Lovelock may never make it beyond book one. It was my understanding that Lovelock was a prospective trilogy, though. I think Orson Scott Card is more than capable of writing a great trilogy. I agree though that any series can get tedious beyond three books, despite the skill of the author.
Posted by Fitz (Member # 4803) on :
I wish Martin would hurry up and prove it already.
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
A series CAN work well -- IF it's planned far enough in advance. Usually it stops being fresh once an author uses up the initial plotting. After that, he usually has a hard time improvising without being dragged under by the weight of all the existing characters and events.
I'm another person who's looking forward to OSC's stand-alone books. Magic Street is due out this year, isn't it?
Posted by Fitz (Member # 4803) on :
June, according to amazon. Link. Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
Fitz -- I liked Asimov's Foundation books -- I think his fourth one, Foundation's Edge, worked fine. I think of Asimov's series being somewhat of an exception to the series rule, because he kept moving the series forward in time and so the stories would be about new worlds and new characters. (Foundation and Earth, which followed Foundation's Edge, didn't work as well, because it was using leftover characters that were no longer fresh.)
Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
Ralphie - I agree. Forgot about that one.
Posted by Fitz (Member # 4803) on :
You're right, there are certainly exceptions to the rule. I didn't mean to make it sound like I thought no series could be excellent. Robin Hobb wrote a 6 book series which I enjoy very much (2 trilogies really, but about the same characters).
Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
I'll put in my two cents and say that I love Card's stand-alone novels. Enchantment, Pastwatch, Homebody, Treasure Box -- these books made me fall in love with OSC all over again.
Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
But are Hobb's books really a six-book series, or two three-book series? The characters had changed from the end of the third to the beginning of the fourth. I loved Zahn's Star Wars trilogy, but most of the other books in the series (admittedly by different authors, but same universe) were generally bad.
Posted by Fitz (Member # 4803) on :
My personal interpretation was that the two trilogies constituted a larger series. Many of the themes are the same, and relationships and history from the first trilogy play a large role in the second. Just the way I see it.
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
Hart's Hope is a lovely book. It's my favorite, every word shapes the story with care few authors put into their work.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I really need to make myself read that again.
Someone make me read it again.
Katie, you're coming over tomorrow, make me read it again.
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
I tried reading Hart's Hope once and got thrown by the randomness of it -- I couldn't figure out what sort of story it was, new characters kept getting introduced and I couldn't figure out what was going on, I think I got maybe 75 pages into it then put it down to come back to another time. (I sort of liked what I read, but it was just too random. Does it get less random further in?)
Posted by Ryuko (Member # 5125) on :
Yeah. And I felt like that at first, but once it gets into the "little king's" story, it gets a lot less... weird. I, in fact, stopped reading it and when I came back to it I realized that I was just at the part where it started to make sense.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
plaid, very much so. The threads start to weave together pretty tightly after a while.
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
I think it is natural for many people to like OSC's earlier work more than his later work. Ender's Game, Speaker for the Dead, and the Worthing Saga are scifi classics. To say that OSC's later books do not measure up to these fantastic books is not really an insult in anyway.
Having said that, I really enjoy the Women of Genesis series. The new Enderverse books are a bit worned out, but I'm still going to read all of them. Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
Eh. I hated the Worthing Saga. I reject utterly the premise that suffering is necessary for happiness, or that complete, utter, and eternal bliss for all humanity is impossible.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Which 6 Hobbs books are considered the same series? As far as I know, her three trilogies, Live Ships, Tawny Man, and Assassin, are all set in the same world but are independant series. I haven't read the tawny man, so it's probably that and assassin.
Marion Zimmer Bradley wrote a whole slew of books all set in the same universe - her Darkover novels. They're not a series, so no problems with dwindling plot lines. Other authors have likely done the same. I like that sort of thing - it doesn't have the same problems as a long series does.
Posted by St. Yogi (Member # 5974) on :
"If you compare the number of people who don't like Card's writing to the number of people in this thread that do, it's no wonder Kristine wonders if anyone would even care to meet him anymore."
I'm pretty sure that the reason she wonders about that is because of the people comparing him to nazis and saying he hates america, and not because some people prefer his older books.
You seem to think that anyone who disagrees with Card is being rude to him.
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
Danzig, I felt the same way before I read the book. I guess I found OSC's argument more persuasive than you did. Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
I didn't get into the Shadow books until I realized that I really wouldn't be seeing Ender in them.
Once I had that in mind, I was able to enjoy them very much-- especially Shadow Puppets.
Card's a master, in my humble opinion. When he decides to stop writing, I wish him still the best.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Magic Street is due out soon...there was a lady in line in front of me with and advanced readers copy of it, waiting for him to sign it.
When she told us what it was I almost mugged her right there and then...
The only reason I didn't was because I would have been caught right there in line....
Waiting for OSC to sign it for me.
[ February 23, 2005, 07:51 PM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
In case there was any question, I did read Enchantment and Pastwatch, 3 times each actually and loved them both. Its just that after I read Shadow of the Hegemon, I realized that his new works were not for me. I suspected it when I read Ender's Shadow and Heartfire, but that book confirmed it.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:Waiting for OSC to sing it for me.
It's a performance piece?
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
I would be disappointed. But if he did it because he was burned out, as Geoff indicated, then I would be glad he had stopped before doing the literary equivalent of jumping the shark. As with Seinfeld, better go out with people wanting more than go out after people have gotten tired of you.
As to OSC's early work versus his later works, I commented on the observed evolution of his style in this thread, on the other side of the forum.
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
Ketch, I will. I loved Hart's Hope. See you tonight around 8:30. I'm over my minutes for the month already, so I think I'll just come over.
Olivia, the WoG books really are amazing. Sarah gave me same thrill of characters and wisdom and the world laid out for my exploration that Pastwatch and Ender's Game and Saints did.
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
Tom: I meant mostly that his books seem to center more and more on emotions and thoughts, with action almost as an afterthought. It reminds me of that part in the movie Hero where they think out the whole battle before they actually fight it. Card's characters often seem to come to these elaborate conclusions in their heads, and then what actually happens is sort of anticlimactic. I find that exhausting.
But I agree. I don't see as much difference in the characters as I wish there was. In that way, Card kind of reminds me of Heinlein.
I'm curious: how much of Card's volume of writing is based on contract? Does he ever have to finish out a series, or even start a certain type of book, because the publisher is leaning on him? Does that happen to authors once they get a large readership?
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote: I don't see as much difference in the characters as I wish there was. In that way, Card kind of reminds me of Heinlein.
That reminds me of Herbert.
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
What--me not using the subjunctive?
Posted by IdemosthenesI (Member # 862) on :
My favorite Card books: Ender's Game, Speaker for the Dead, Treason, Hart's Hope, The Worthing Saga
My favorite used to be Speaker, but I think it might be Hart's Hope now, because I have come to hold use of language more important in the past year or so. It's just such a beautifully constructed milieu. I think if Card wrote more milieu stories I would be a lot happier with his recent body of work. As it is, it just feels like he's lost interest. The characters aren't themselves anymore, if that makes sense. They seem like they are just playing parts on a stage. If you think of Xenocide, it's pretty much a perfect example of this. In Xenocide, it seemed that the characters who had been there all along, like Ender and Val and Novinha, sort of subsided into the background. By Children of the Mind, they were all but gone. The real story in Xenocide was party about the grown Ribeira children, but the most interesting passages, the ones that had the most passion and evocative brilliance behind them, were the ones that took place on Path with Han Fie-tzu and Si Wang-mu and Han Qing-jao. I think that was the story that most interested Card, because it ended up being the most interesting to the reader.
I feel that the same thing is happening now, in the Shadow series, except there aren't really any new characters whose stories are taking over for the ones that are subsiding, so they are forced to stay in the spotlight after their part of the story is already done.
I will agree that Pastwatch and Enchantement were rip-roaring good reads. I have high hopes for Magic Street.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I disagree. I think Bean and Petra especially, but Peter to a lesser degree, get more vital as I read each book.
I suppose it all depends on what you value in a book; that's why there are two camps here.
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
Ian - Your posts in that thread are so well thought out and articulated. Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
The scenes with Alai as Caliph are incredibly powerful to me.
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
Thanks.
Posted by Promethius (Member # 2468) on :
I would be very sad if OSC stopped writing. I love everything I have read that Card has done. I find his work extremely entertaining as well as thought provoking. OSC is the author that made me take an interest in reading, and for that I am extremely thankful. His writing has brought me countless hours of joy.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
I would prefer that OSC (or any author) stop writing when he is either burned out or has nothing new to say than that he write for the sake of writing and produce work below his established standard. So if OSC gets to that point, or the point where he would just rather do something else, I’ll wish him well.
Wyrms may be my favorite OSC novel. Or it might be tied with Speaker and/or Songmaster, I’m not sure.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
dkw, we knew you liked weird things...you just confirmed it now, that is all.
Before the wedding too....after it would have been common knowledge.
[ February 23, 2005, 07:50 PM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
Posted by theamazeeaz (Member # 6970) on :
As controversial as this thread is in terms of sensitivity and topic matter, I would just like to comment that as a direct result as this thread, I have hunted down and found a copy of Hart's Hope, and will try to read it when I have time (as of now I'm wasting all my spare time on Hatrack). I thought I had gone through most of Card's works that I found worth reading, but nope! Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
I want Peter to be sexy, but in the Shadow series, he's not.
If OSC stopped writing, I would feel ambivalent. I'd assume he made the decision for personally valid reasons, and keep in mind that his decisions are not mine to make. Then I'd start looking for work by Geoff and Emily.
There are some authors I'd be sad to see stop writing. These are ones whose personal lives are more mysterious to me than Card's, and whose works make me feel like they have insights to other worlds. Card's works have stopped thrilling me, mostly because they don't tell me anything NEW. (I'm referring to the Shadow series and the latter Alvin Maker books).
Women of Genesis are exciting, but not enough to make me fall in love. I eagerly await the next stand-alone books, because as someone already noted, those really seem to shine.
At any rate, Card's writing decisions are his own. When I went to the first Boot Camp, I learned that criticisms let you know what particular readers/types of readers think. You ignore them if you choose, but you risk losing that reader. And sometimes you gain others. But that's your decision to make. I'm just thinking that Card's writing decisions have risked losing him the kinds of readers who need more wonder and what if in their lives. Long series are for people who liked the original wonder, but would prefer to stay in a world that's familiar. Me, I fell in love with Ender because he was both familiar and strange. Lots of strange (think of the originality of the Giant's Game). But when I could predict (in the Shadow series after the first one) how characters would react, it wasn't as thrilling for me. Other readers, though, might find that reassuring.
To be Strange, I think, means risking losing many readers. It's why Bestsellers work for many people but not for me. I like stuff on the edge, the ragged edge of Chaos where strange and wonderful and dangerous things can happen.
Posted by JonnyNotSoBravo (Member # 5715) on :
Cool, a whole thread about OSC and his writing...hey, wait a minute, this isn't the Discussions About Orson Scott Card Forum! You tricked me! I had so avoided the other forum and avoided reading this kind of thing because I knew it would make me get all angst-ridden about when his new Pastwatch novels might come out. You evil hooligans!
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