There have been many rumors that video games, such as Halo, Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas, Diablo, and others, have been very addicting and I wondered does anyone have a comment or assurance that this rumor is true or not true? Posted by DragonLover (Member # 7387) on :
I have one thought that some feeble minds are easily seduced by certain video games. Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
I have a tendency to get sucked into things. That thing can be reading books, playing music, or playing video games.
Video games tend to suck me in more than anything else, and relinquish their hold much more reluctantly. There have been many times when I have forced myself to to play any games at all for a week, just so that I can come back with a better perspective.
edit: I don't think it's so much having a feeble mind or a strong mind, but having a mind that is susceptible to such things. Which, I guess, you could qualify as being feeble in this narrow instance, but I don't think it translates as being strong or weak minded in other regards.
Also, I don't think it's really an addiction. Addiction is something that I reserve for something that is not just in your mind, but where your body is addicted as well as your mind.
[ February 19, 2005, 01:31 PM: Message edited by: AntiCool ]
Posted by Intelligence3 (Member # 6944) on :
Evertything that gives pleasure has the opportunity to become very seductive.
I agree with Alexey Pajitnov, who created Tetris. i heard him speak once, and here is the exact quote, edited a bit for family viewing:
"What are people going to do otherwise? Watch the (expletive) TV? Read a(n expletive) book? What makes those so much (expletive) better than a game?"
A friend of a friend is a TV producer. She kind of confronted me over this issue once, since she had been considering doing a story on it for the local news. My reponse was, "I'd be happy to see you do a story about that. As long as you couple it with a story about all the people who watch TV all day long and never do anything else, about all those kids who come home at night and turn on the tube then watch until bedtime. Because back in the day, the newspapers were full of stoies about that. Why? Because it was new, becuse it threatened them, and because it was easy to appeal to an older, conservative demographic without doing any real work to understand the way new cultural forces both enhance and disrupt life as we know it."
She never did the story.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Expletive! Books tend to suck me in like that. So much that I don't want to do anything but read them until I am finished. I also like video games like FFX and the Sims 2. Video games are fun, they are relaxing and stressful at the same time. They're better than television because at least they are somewhat interactive. You're trying to solve a puzzle or rescue a character. A good video game is as good as a movie and a book rolled into one with good music. Give them a chance, they are not all shoot em up games that corrupt youth. Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
*applauds I3*
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Look at my post count. Look at my registration date. Now average out my posts per day.
I don't have time to play games, I'm addicted to Hatrack. Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
[edited to say well-said Intelligence3]
quote: I have one thought that some feeble minds are easily seduced by certain video games
Some very intelligent people can be obsessive about video games, or obsess about other things.
Same with some very stupid people.
Intelligence and obsessive behavior are two different things, and "feeble minds" is not a descriptive phrase for obsession or addiction, it's very judge-y.
[ February 19, 2005, 01:50 PM: Message edited by: Morbo ]
Posted by Intelligence3 (Member # 6944) on :
Well, yeah, Ketch (I can't call you "KQ," that's a local radio station I hate), but witness all the stories about that on TV. I know you were being snarky, but the stories are the same thing.
Will Wright (who created Sim City and The Sims) was ambushed by Nightline once with a story on this topic. The reporter and producer they sent to interview him had NEVER played video games before. They were condescending to him on the air. I have a hard time watching Nightline after that.
(I don't know Will, but I chatted him up on a street corner at the same conference where I heard Pajitnov speak. What can I say? He and Sid Meier are my heroes.)
Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
quote:What makes those so much (expletive) better than a game?
I'll give you some reasons.
I think that story telling is important, and that good stories make a difference for good in our lives. Stories help us understand ourselves and others better. We explore what is right and wrong, what is good and bad, what is helpful and unhelpful through stories.
One could even make the case that the essence of who we are is determined by the stories we choose to tell ourselves.
This is why TV shows and books are able to be of greater value than a game like Tetris -- they are able to enrich our souls. True, most don't rise to that, but a few do.
I've never seen a video game that does.
[ February 19, 2005, 02:01 PM: Message edited by: AntiCool ]
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
But certainly video game technology is moving to the point where they are capable of it, if it's not already there.
In fact, with the ability for the "reader" to interact, I'd say it has far more possibilities to engage the imagination and create enobling stories than movies or television.
If the stories we tell ourselves are important, than technology that enables the reader to fine-tune the story being told has the potential for great good.
Dagonee
Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
Depends on how you define addiction. Certainly it is possible to use video games as the primary or sole means of releasing the happy neurotransmitters. It is also possible to put a high enough priority on them to cause most others to deem the level of use unhealthy. But it is no worse than marijuana - it is easy to stop any time you want to, but you may not want to. If they occupy most of your mind, you could easily suffer a moderate psychological withdrawal, especially if they were also the primary means of socialization.
Of course, addiction is an overused word. Caffeine has worse a physical withdrawal than cocaine, but most people I know would consider cocaine the more addictive substance.
Posted by Intelligence3 (Member # 6944) on :
The problem there, Porter, is that the majority of people who consume entertainment in the world conume "junk food" entertainment.
I mean, really? What do we learn about ourselves from "Friends?" That we like pretty girls and handsome boys who have shallow lives? I think we all knew that by junior high.
I say this as someone who watches CSI religiously, too. Junk food. But entertaining.
We'll get there with interactive entertainment. We need to go through a period of maturation before we get there. And we will always want/need junk food, too. Have you seen a lot of 18th century English "literature?" Junk food.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Then you've never played Final Fantasy 7,8,9, or 10. They have a good plot, strong interesting characters in between the monster fights. Especially FF10. I love that game. It's got one of the best heriones in it ever. And also good graphics. Besides, just about 90% of the shows on television are crap these days.. I get nothing from sitcoms except an angry feeling knowing that these people are making so much money to put such terrible programs on.
Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
quote:In fact, with the ability for the "reader" to interact, I'd say it has far more possibilities to engage the imagination and create enobling stories than movies or television.
I don't think I agree. Just going around and doing things isn't really a story to me -- it's just a bunch of stuff happening.
Now, it might be possible for this to happen some day. All I can really say is that I haven't really seen any indication of it happening yet. The storytelling aspect of games tends to be not much beoyond Tetris -- it's not really a story, it's a puzzle to be solved.
Posted by Intelligence3 (Member # 6944) on :
quote: But certainly video game technology is moving to the point where they are capable of it, if it's not already there.
Right, we're still figuring out the possibilities given to us by our own "moveable type" revolution.
Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
quote:The problem there, Porter, is that the majority of people who consume entertainment in the world conume "junk food" entertainment.
I mean, really? What do we learn about ourselves from "Friends?" That we like pretty girls and handsome boys who have shallow lives? I think we all knew that by junior high.
I agree, and I had the same thought about "Friends" when I made my first post. Junk food for the soul is not an inherently bad thing. Except for the sexual content which I take issue with, Friends for the most part is pretty much on par with Tetris -- fun and entertaining, but not enriching.
I'm just making the point that books and TV shows can rise far above that, while in my experience video games have failed to do so yet.
And Synestasia, you are right -- I have never played any of the Final Fantasy games.
Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
What about a massively multiplay RPG that was really an RPG? If a DM was good enough, or a computer could be a good enough DM, that might have the potential to be more attractive than real life for susceptible individuals. Especially if enough advances were made in direct neural interfaces, so that the players actually saw, heard, smelt, etc.
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
That's projecting to the point of real virtual reality.
I think future society may have lots of problems with addictive VR(and not just in games), but it's not here now.
[ February 19, 2005, 02:20 PM: Message edited by: Morbo ]
Posted by gnixing (Member # 768) on :
porter, the final fantasy games are, in many ways, animated tales more than games. you can take a break from the story to go kill monsters, but when it's all said and done - you've witnessed and played part in a heroic tale.
Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
True VR may well be a problem for society, but I think even a non-VR, well-implemented online RPG would be more reinforcing than anything currently on the market.
Posted by MichelleEly (Member # 6737) on :
Put me down for Final Fantasies and Sims 2. I can do marathon sessions with those.
I believe OSC has gone on record as saying that people that plays Sims are lacking in their real lives.
Sims 2 can take a lot of strategy and creativity. Some of the house designs are incredible and would be good practice for a couple different careers.
FFs are just these vast worlds that also take stategy and have a lot of challenges that take brains. The message is always about friendship and honor. Michelle
[ February 19, 2005, 02:33 PM: Message edited by: MichelleEly ]
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
He has? But they are so much fun, until the cycle ends, and then I hang the game up for a while. but, I always go back to make Kelly have more babies because she always wants more babies and to make more couples gay and straight. Also, the expansion pack is coming out next week. I will RESIST! i love the themes of FF.
Posted by DragonLover (Member # 7387) on :
Ok let me get this straight. If the intellectual level is not to blame for the obbsession for an object then what exactly is? Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Ever heard of "addictive personality"? I've got one.
Posted by Joldo (Member # 6991) on :
I don't think they are.
*returns to play Civilizations III for the next 72 hours*
Posted by DragonLover (Member # 7387) on :
Fine then lets break it down. What is this "addictive personality" that is such a big deal and important factor? Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
quote: I think that story telling is important, and that good stories make a difference for good in our lives. Stories help us understand ourselves and others better. We explore what is right and wrong, what is good and bad, what is helpful and unhelpful through stories.
One could even make the case that the essence of who we are is determined by the stories we choose to tell ourselves.
This is why TV shows and books are able to be of greater value than a game like Tetris -- they are able to enrich our souls. True, most don't rise to that, but a few do.
I've never seen a video game that does.
Then clearly you've either not been playing video games or been playing the wrong ones.
The vast majority of video games that are more than just puzzle games have plots. Many have intricate and detailed plots that draw you in as much as any good book or movie. Better even becuase you play the main character and your actions make a difference. Ever played Baldurs Gate? Morrowind? The FF series? ALL computer games that are RPGs have intricate, detailed and long plots with many sub plots. They explore all sorts of things. They do it in a different way from books however.
What about those first person shooters everyone berates as violent junk? Ever played Marathon(a very early one by Bungie)? Oni? Halo? Half-life? Half-Life 2? Heck even Doom 3! They all have detailed plots which slowly unravel as the character blasts his/her way through the levels. And then you get to the history oriented FPSs such as Medal of Honor, Call of Duty and Battle Field:1942. They tell a true story, the story of history, often with a fictional plot worked in same as any good historical fiction. Thats what drives many people to play them: the plot. At least thats what drives me.
What about MUDs and MMORPGs? In those games the players make up the plot as they go along. They are entire virtual worlds, with their own societies, cultures, and histories known to their players. Often they mimick worlds conceived in books and movies such as the many Tolkien muds that try to create a virtual version of Tolkien's Middle Earth or Earth and Beyond a Star Trek MMORPG.
Video games are on level with books and TV/movies for story telling. Its just a different kind of story telling, a new medium, where the player takes part in the story instead of just hearing it or watching it play out. And its still in (relatively) the early stages of its developement. Its getting better all the time.
Aside from story telling, games offer something that books and movies NEVER offered and CANNOT offer. The ability to learn by doing. What do you think all the sim games are? They allow you to simulate being mayor of a city, owner of a large office tower and such things and thereby learn how it works. They weren't very detailed or accurate simulations at first, by they're getting better all the time, and these days they are very good. Sim City 3 was incredibly complex and made my head spin, I've heard Sim City 4 is even more so. The US Army has turned to video games to train soldiers tactics and team work. What do you think America's Army is (aside from a recruiting ploy)? Heck, thats the premise behind much of Ender's Game, video games being used to train soldiers! And they a good for teaching far more than that. There's a whole genre of MUDs devoted to educating, I've never played them so I don't know how they do it but I know their their. Many of the games I first played were about teaching young kids things like math and history. Remember Number Crunchers? Oregan Trail?
I'm sick of hearing about video games being worthless trash and not comparing to books and movies or TV. In terms of cultural value video games are as good as books and movies or TV. They are a different medium for doing the same thing and more.
[ February 19, 2005, 03:01 PM: Message edited by: Alcon ]
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
DL, in my case, it's a genetic tendency to... become addicted to things. Mostly alcohol in my relatives, but also food, caffiene, all kinds of things. And not a one of us is "weak-minded".
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
Conversely, you could say that boring minds never feel passion about anything.
Posted by DragonLover (Member # 7387) on :
Ultimately I conclude that the obsessions for objects come from two factors the quality of the object that is held dear and/or I repeat and/or the intelectual level of the human being in this case. Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
You keep saying "intellectual". I do not think it means what you think it means.
Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
DL you sneaky... I saw that, thought I was going crazy!! The thread seemed to go from 28 to 32 then to 31 all in the course of about 2 seconds
There is an edit button you know Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Yeah. Now I had to delete my ever-so-intelligent "Um, what?" post. I loved that post. Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
quote:Then clearly you've either not been playing video games or been playing the wrong ones.
It could be, but might it be possible that we simply disagree?
quote:Ever played Baldurs Gate? Morrowind? The FF series? ALL computer games that are RPGs have intricate, detailed and long plots with many sub plots. They explore all sorts of things. They do it in a different way from books however.
I have never really enjoyed computer RGPs that much, because it takes away my favorite part of role-playing -- developing the character. The only one I've played in recent years is "Neverwinter Nights", which I enjoyed, but not because of the storytelling.
quote:What about those first person shooters everyone berates as violent junk?
Those are my favorite games.
quote:Ever played Marathon(a very early one by Bungie)? Oni? Halo? Half-life? Half-Life 2? Heck even Doom 3!
I have played all of those except for HL2, and enjoyed them all.
quote:They all have detailed plots which slowly unravel as the character blasts his/her way through the levels.
Here we're going to have to agree to disagree. Yes, they all had plots, but mostly as an excuse to get you into situations where you have to kill lots of monsters. It's like popcorn action movies -- "How can we get our hero into a situation where he jumps out of an exloding skyscraper into a helicopter?"
quote:And then you get to the history oriented FPSs such as Medal of Honor, Call of Duty and Battle Field:1942. They tell a true story, the story of history, often with a fictional plot worked in same as any good historical fiction. Thats what drives many people to play them:
I've only played BF:1942 out of those, but I disagree again. All I cared about was the tactical situation of the individual scenarios while playing those games. What am I trying to accomplish, and what stands in my way? It was very fun, but it was much more problem solving than story telling.
[ February 19, 2005, 03:25 PM: Message edited by: AntiCool ]
Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
quote:Video games are on level with books and TV/movies for story telling. Its just a different kind of story telling, a new medium, where the player takes part in the story instead of just hearing it or watching it play out. And its still in (relatively) the early stages of its developement. Its getting better all the time.
I disagree that it is on the same level as books, TV, and movies, all of which are pretty mature media. Gaming is a new medium, and it is getting better. There may come a day when I think it is on the same level. But as I said before, that day is not today.
This is not me just being a luddite and saying that video games are trash. I just don't think that they are good at storytelling yet.
quote:What about MUDs and MMORPGs? In those games the players make up the plot as they go along. They are entire virtual worlds, with their own societies, cultures, and histories known to their players. Often they mimick worlds conceived in books and movies such as the many Tolkien muds that try to create a virtual version of Tolkien's Middle Earth or Earth and Beyond a Star Trek MMORPG.
I have never been involved in any of those, so I don't have a response to that.
quote:Aside from story telling, games offer something that books and movies NEVER offered and CANNOT offer. The ability to learn by doing.
I completely agree. There are many things that games can do that, for instance, books cannot.
There are also many things that sports can do that books, TV, movies, and video games cannot. They are different things.
But that doesn't change the fact that, IMO, neither sports nor video games are as good at storytelling as the other media I have mentioned.
quote:I'm sick of hearing about video games being worthless trash and not comparing to books and movies or TV. In terms of cultural value video games are as good as books and movies or TV. They are a different medium for doing the same thing and more.
I never said anything of the kind. I think you are arguing with what other people have said in the past, not with what I have said here.
deja vu
[ February 19, 2005, 03:35 PM: Message edited by: AntiCool ]
Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
I wouldn't use the term addictive personality, since I think addictions involve neurology. It can be genetic or the result of a need to cope, but I think some people have more receptors for some neurotransmitters. This creates a supply crisis for the neurotransmitters and the person has to engage in behaviors that stimulate overproduction.
But it is increased brain activity, which is why so many writers and artists are alcoholics or users of other types of mood altering stuff. You don't have to do that stuff to be brilliant by any means, but it's part of the stereotype. Tennessee Williams, Fitzgerald, Dostoevsky. Another correlation is that they tend to have crappy family lives, and I think the cycle of abuse tends to create these overactive receptor centers.
Take seratonin, which is a neurotransmitter involved in obsessive compulsiveness and I consider an important element of addiction. It is an inhibitory hormone that quiets the brain. I think when children experience abuse the result of their coping behaviors will be the excesses and supply crises I have described.
In terms of whether Halo is addictive, it is designed with graduated difficulty levels so that your gaming experience can be more and more intense, which is a feature of addiction.
The clinical definition of addiction includes -spending a lot of time using, seeking, or looking forward to use. -use interferes with other obligations and relationships. -multiple resolutions to quit or control use. -increasing intensity of using experience sought, levels that formerly were satisfying no longer are.
I think those are the basics, in lay terms. I posted the official Psychiatric version a few months back.
Posted by DragonLover (Member # 7387) on :
You ketchupqueen my expanded vocabulary should be known, but I act like a idiot at school. At the same time intelectual means state or being of the human mind.
[ February 19, 2005, 03:43 PM: Message edited by: DragonLover ]
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
From onelook.com:
quote: Quick definitions (Intellectual)
noun: a person who uses the mind creatively
adjective: appealing to or using the intellect (Example: "Satire is an intellectual weapon")
adjective: of or associated with or requiring the use of the mind (Example: "Intellectual problems")
adjective: of or relating to the intellect (Example: "His intellectual career")
adjective: involving intelligence rather than emotions or instinct
Please explain how intellect or intelligence has anything to do with addiction?
Posted by DragonLover (Member # 7387) on :
At a certain level you can be seduced very easily by a object. You must have a cunning intelligence or else the game, in the case I set up, is very easy to become attached to it understand! Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
But that has nothing to do with the actual process of addiction. For people with an addictive personality, like me, actual addiction can occur even though you know what's happening intellectually. It takes a lot of willpower to break an addiction, regardless of intellect or intelligence. (I do not know of a member of my family with an IQ below "gifted" level, and many have genius-level IQs.) I think you are making an unjustified connection.
As for attractiveness, my sister has had problems on and off with smoking. She, as all of us, finds the smell of smoke abhorrent, and she doesn't even like the way it makes her feel. But she is addicted nonetheless, and has stopped smoking and started again several times. (I don't think she currently smokes, but I wonder how long that's going to last.)
Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
Lots of addicts are intelligent. I could certainly see that addicts are more intelligent than the general population, especially addicts of certain drugs. On the other hand, some drugs seem to attract users of sub-par intelligence. But I am certain that nearly every addict views themselves as smarter, deeper, and unique, whether they are or not. Certain drug users use the mind creatively, particularly a large subset of psychedelic users. On the other hand, certain drugs are used to create specific emotions and/or are reinforced in ways similar to instinct. Dopamine and endorphin release are instinctual; this is why we usually enjoy accomplishing things and making love.
Making stereotypes, opiate addicts tend to be smart, marijuana addicts are about evenly distributed between slightly above and slightly below average, violent alcoholics are dumb, introspective alcoholics are reasonably smart, cocaine addicts fall all over the IQ spectrum but generally are socially adept, pharmaceutical amphetamine users are a bit above average, and tweakers either start below or sink to it. Psychedelic users are at least average, but almost always believe they are smarter and/or deeper than they are. Of course, while stereotypes exist for a reason, they are still stereotypes.
Moving beyond substances, there are behaviors that correspond to addictive use of specific drugs. Video games are like cannabis. Gambling is like alcohol and cocaine. Sex is like narcotics and MDMA. Workaholism corresponds to amphetamine abuse. My personal belief is that different personalities tend to be more susceptible to certain addictions, rather than there being one general addictive personality. Video game addiction is usually not that damaging, despite the occasional Everquest player who still lives with his parents at 32.
Posted by SteveRogers (Member # 7130) on :
Frank I have two words:
Katamari Damatchi
Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
quote: quote:I'm sick of hearing about video games being worthless trash and not comparing to books and movies or TV. In terms of cultural value video games are as good as books and movies or TV. They are a different medium for doing the same thing and more.
I never said anything of the kind. I think you are arguing with what other people have said in the past, not with what I have said here.
deja vu
Sorry Porter, by that point I'd gotten well off what you'd said and entered into my standard 'video games aren't trash gosh darnit' rant. That part wasn't really directed at you.
Posted by MichelleEly (Member # 6737) on :
I don't worry about what other people think I should be doing with my free time. Clearly I am getting something from the games or I would so something else instead.
I write as a hobby, I read like a fiend,I have lots of pets, I am recently off of a stressful job ... I don't sweat time spent with a video game now and again - not even the occasional marathon sessions. Michelle
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
I'm gonna be a junkie A junkie junkie junkie Would you like to be one, too?
Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
quote:But that doesn't change the fact that, IMO, neither sports nor video games are as good at storytelling as the other media I have mentioned.
And here is why:
quote: quote:Ever played Baldurs Gate? Morrowind? The FF series? ALL computer games that are RPGs have intricate, detailed and long plots with many sub plots. They explore all sorts of things. They do it in a different way from books however.
I have never really enjoyed computer RGPs that much, because it takes away my favorite part of role-playing -- developing the character. The only one I've played in recent years is "Neverwinter Nights", which I enjoyed, but not because of the storytelling.
If your looking for story telling in video games, RPGs are the place to go. I've never played Neverwinter Nights, so I can't vouch for it. But some of the others I've played do indeed have pretty amazing story telling. The description isn't there, cuase its visual, the story is found through discussion with other characters, and slowly unearthing it through action and encounters. I've never played the Final Fantasy series but I've heard amazing things about it. Morrowind I have played and it is incredible. Baldurs Gate and Baldurs Gate 2 could use some work, but they do tell a pretty good fantasy story. Some other, less main stream, fantasy games I've played were also really amazing in terms of story telling ability.
If your looking to develope your own character as in traditional rollplaying, MMORPGs and MUDs are the place to go. You've been playing the wrong games if those are two things you're looking for
And I'll agree with you that many (but not all, I actually really liked many of the stories told by first person shooters) of the stories told by FPS are just an excuse to get you killing monsters. And actually, some of my favorite FPS's have no story telling aspect whatso ever, they're just multiplayer battle and tactics games (Counter Strike:Source).
As for the games with a history aspect, well the fact that you choose to ignore the story telling aspect in them doesn't change the fact that it is there. I haven't played battlefield 1942, I just offered it as another example of a game with a historic theme, Medal of Honor I have played and it does a fair job of depicting WWII and telling a story about it and your character.
Actually, by the time I'd reached about midway through the first paragraph, I wasn't just responding to your post Anti, but rather everyone who bashes video games as being worse than TV/Movies and books. Sorry for not making that clear.
Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
A junkie junkie? Sounds like a good definition of codependence
Danzig has a good point that the sort of thing one gets addicted to probably has to do with one's... temperment? It's been my experience that video game addicts tend to be the bookish sort. But then, I move in a bookish circle so who the heck knows.
That intelligence does not correlate with character seems pretty obvious to me.
Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
If opiates were legal, I would love to be a junkie. With constant access to an adequate supply, opiate dependents are highly functional if they want to be - significantly more so than alcoholics or even daily cannabis users.
mothertree, I am probably stereotyping again, but it is usually the computer game enthusiasts that are bookish. TV console players are not particularly literary. I think it has something to do with the barrier to entry - consoles are expected to just work while computer games require at least a little bit of knowledge.
Posted by NinjaBirdman (Member # 7114) on :
quote: quote:Ever played Baldurs Gate? Morrowind? The FF series? ALL computer games that are RPGs have intricate, detailed and long plots with many sub plots. They explore all sorts of things. They do it in a different way from books however.
I have never really enjoyed computer RGPs that much, because it takes away my favorite part of role-playing -- developing the character. The only one I've played in recent years is "Neverwinter Nights", which I enjoyed, but not because of the storytelling.
Out of all the RPGs mentioned here, Neverwinter Nights has the worst story(and is also the worst overall game out of them). Apparently it's good online, and it's almost an online tabletop DnD type of deal, but I never got into that.
Morrowind is probably the best example of where story telling in games is going. Sure, there's a main plot, but the player also has the freedom to pretty much create their own story by joining guilds, stealing stuff, exploring, finding treasure, collecting bounties on people, etc.
I also feel KOTOR I and II should be mentioned. The story in these games has a set ending(well, acutally a couple of endings) but the journey there could be WAY different each time someone plays through it.
And yes tetris doesn't have a story. Games like that are the video game equivalent of crossword puzzles and word search things.
Posted by SteveRogers (Member # 7130) on :
Once again.....two words:
Katamari Damatchi
[ February 19, 2005, 05:50 PM: Message edited by: SteveRogers ]
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
quote:I think that story telling is important, and that good stories make a difference for good in our lives. Stories help us understand ourselves and others better. We explore what is right and wrong, what is good and bad, what is helpful and unhelpful through stories.
One could even make the case that the essence of who we are is determined by the stories we choose to tell ourselves.
Perfect.
Posted by Puppy (Member # 6721) on :
Two words, spelled correctly:
Katamari Damacy
I will grant that, as a new medium whose primary focus is rightly on the gameplay, rather than the story, the gaming industry has a ways to go. But to speak of it as though it is inherently incapable of achieving the same level of awesomeness as other media is nothing more than prejudice.
My prime example of this is Deus Ex — the original, not the sequel. That game required you several times to make moral choices about other people's lives, in which all the options available to you were bad. That game really made you think about what mattered most to you, and what kind of world you wanted to live in.
Other games have gone to similar lengths to explore the same kinds of questions and dilemmas that other media have excelled at portraying.
The problem is that this IS an emerging medium. While theater has been around forever, novels have been around for centuries, movies for one century, and television for decades, video games (as we know them today) have only really been around for about 25 years. Just as moviemakers had to learn, over time, to use the camera as a storytelling tool, rather than simply filming stage plays or slices of life, so also are video game designers still in the process of figuring out how to change their means of storytelling to account for the unique features of their medium.
Stories in other media get a lot of mileage out of the fact that the writer decides, in advance, what choices the characters will make, what consequences those choices will have, and how they will affect the meaning of the overall story. They take this power for granted, and have learned to use it well.
In a video game, in which the actions of the main character are not under the designer's direct control, you suddenly face a new set of challenges. How do you give that character's actions meaning in the story, when you don't know what they will be? We have settled, so far, into several different methods:
0. Nonexistent Storylines. Not really part of the list, but this should be mentioned. Some games are simply mind puzzles or dexterity challenges, and have no need of a story. EXAMPLES: Tetris, many puzzle and strategy games
1. Window-dressing Storylines. In some games, the story and the gameplay bear almost no relation to one another. You play through a series of challenges that have very little story to them, and then (sometimes) are rewarded with the next piece in an ongoing movie or novel that is only tangentially related to what you are actually doing. EXAMPLES: Most Real-time Strategy games fall into this category, as does the Diablo series.
2. The Player as an Actor. In some games, the designers decide in advance who the main character is, what choices he would make in any given situation, and write out a linear storyline for the game to follow. In such games, the player does not determine the flow of the story, but is more like an actor in a play. He takes the script, and does his best to hit all the marks and get his lines right. If he does something catastrophically wrong, he has to restart the story again. Such stories can be entertaining and rewarding in the same way that movies and television can be, and offer the immediacy and variability of theater ... but they take advantage of very few of the new possibilities available to the medium. EXAMPLES: the Halo series, the Half-life series, Monkey Island, Grim Fandango, Full Throttle, the Final Fantasy series ... basically, high-end shooters, adventure games, and eastern RPGs
3. Sandbox Storytelling. Certain games and genres offer no storyline at all, and instead give the player the tools to tell his own stories. These games do not directly cast the game designer as a storytelling artist, but the responsiveness and behavior of their simulated world can impact the value and meaning of the stories told by their players. If the best way to excel in a sandbox game is to ruthlessly abuse other people, for instance, then the designer is still making a point, albeit a subtle one. EXAMPLES: the Sims series, the Civilization series
4. Alternate Realities. In some games, the artistry is not poured into a single storyline, but rather into the creation of a rich world that may or may not incorporate hundreds of smaller stories. In such games, the purpose is beauty, the feeling of inhabiting another place, and the ability to have experiences that you cannot have in the real world, rather than storytelling, though some storytelling does go on in the background, as a necessary part of fleshing out the world and providing loose structure to the experience. In such games, the artists and designers take a role that is more like that of a painter or an architect than that of a novelist. EXAMPLES: the MMORPG genre (World of Warcraft, City of Heroes, Everquest), the Grand Theft Auto series, the Elder Scrolls series
5. Character-definition Games. In some games, the player is given the tools to develop one or more characters. In such games, the story is often just as linear as those in category 2, with the difference being that while the game is being developed, the main character is a cipher, whose identity is later filled in by the player. Such games often have optional subplots and language that vary according to the player's character choices, but in the main plotline, the player character is necessarily treated with a kind of distance that is necessary for any character that is not defined in advance. EXAMPLES: Fable, the Baldur's Gate series, Arcanum, most western RPGs
6. Controlled Decision-making. This category is the one which, in my mind, takes the most advantage of the medium, and has the most potential for greatness as its techniques are developed and improved. In a game like this, the story is specifically crafted to include branches that depend on the player's behavior, particularly his value-based choices. Unlike Sandbox and Alternate Reality games, in which virtually anything is possible, these games limit the large-scale choices to those which can be given meaningful consequences in the story. Often, choices are presented in terms of factions — there are different parties in this world that are vying for control, and the player chooses which party to support, with all of its virtues and faults. Some such games cast these decisions explicitly in terms of good and evil, but I personally find more meaning in the ones in which the choices are complex, and every possible decision has a realistic downside. EXAMPLES: the Deus Ex series, the Fallout series, the Knights of the Old Republic series
Granted, some games blur the lines between these types. But by and large, these are the general storytelling techniques that I've noticed being used in the industry.
Our problem is not one of some inherent weakness in the medium, but simply one of inexperience. I think that time and trial-and-error will give us many opportunities to advance the state of our art and bring it up to par, in general, with that of our ancestor media. For now, certain games already rise above the rest as examples of what may be possible on a large scale in the future.
[ February 19, 2005, 07:07 PM: Message edited by: Puppy ]
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
The master has spoken... Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
quote:Our problem is not one of some inherent weakness in the medium
I think right now it is. Computers are not currently complex enough to generate completely new storylines. We are at the point where a game's story can have enough branches to stay interesting for a long time, but all of those branches had to be created by a human.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Geoff, you failed to mention Planescape: Torment. It is a rule that any time someone mentions open-ended storylines done right in a game that PS:T has to be mentioned, perhaps alongside KOTOR. It's a rule.
But you mentioned Grim Fandango correctly in the "player as actor" list, so that gets you some leeway. *grin*
[ February 19, 2005, 08:04 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
Posted by Puppy (Member # 6721) on :
quote:Computers are not currently complex enough to generate completely new storylines. We are at the point where a game's story can have enough branches to stay interesting for a long time, but all of those branches had to be created by a human.
Movies and TV shows also do not make themselves, and are similarly limited by what the creators can generate with available resources, and what the investors and the audiences will pay for.
If you really want to take it this far, then I suppose that all media are severely hobbled by the fact that humans have to make them. However, I thought this discussion was about whether or not video games are inherently MORE hobbled, as a medium, than the older media.
Personally, I doubt I would WANT to play through a storyline that wasn't generated by a person.
[ February 19, 2005, 09:07 PM: Message edited by: Puppy ]
Posted by Puppy (Member # 6721) on :
And Tom, you know I never got to play P:T when it was new, and now you just like to tease me Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
Great summary, Geoff. I didn't know you were Puppy.
Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
quote:My prime example of this is Deus Ex — the original, not the sequel. That game required you several times to make moral choices about other people's lives, in which all the options available to you were bad. That game really made you think about what mattered most to you, and what kind of world you wanted to live in.
I completely agree. Out of all the video games that I've played, Deus Ex is the one that did the best at telling a story with the medium of the game.
OK, you guys have me interested now. If I were to play one other game in order to try to be convinced of the storytelling potential of video games, what would it be?
Unfortunately, it probably needs to be a PC game. The only console that we have is a PlayStation.
So, what do I need to buy and play?
[ February 19, 2005, 09:29 PM: Message edited by: AntiCool ]
Posted by Puppy (Member # 6721) on :
Morb, I'm Dog at home and Puppy at work Which says something really sad about how my week is going right now Posted by SteveRogers (Member # 7130) on :
Another extremely addictive game:
Defender Posted by NinjaBirdman (Member # 7114) on :
quote:If I were to play one other game in order to try to be convinced of the storytelling potential of video games, what would it be?
I'd say Knights of the Old Republic.
Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
A play and a movie and a TV show all have one thing in common. The viewer doesn't have any control over what is going on. I suppose the ideal video game would give the player the same satisfaction that a director of performance media gets from a production. The script belongs to the writer, the performances belong to the actors, but the director has a critical creative role.
The games I have played (and the only ones I have played extensively are the Tomb Raider and the Halo series) maybe approach allowing one to be like a co-producer. "Solve this problem". "Fire these people." "Rent a trailer". Maybe I don't really understand what a co-producer does.
Or maybe the trouble is they want you to be an actor. From what people tell me, maybe KOTOR is like that, or possibly Fable. Haven't heard much about that since the launch. Do folks still like it? What about Simming?
Posted by Intelligence3 (Member # 6944) on :
Geoff, I sent you an email btw at the aol account. Not sure if you prefer notice that you've gotten email or not... Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
Let me explain some more why, in my view, no video game storytelling has ever been as effective as that from books, TV shows, or movies.
To me, one of the important functions of stories is to create new "vocabulary stories" for me. When examining or disccusing a situation, person, etc., I have been known draw parallels with Ender's Game, Luke Skywalker, Han Solo, ST:TNG episodes, ST:TOS episodes, Hamlet, Romeo and Juliet, Henry V, Homebody, Pastwatch, Enchantment, Starship Troopers, Lord of the Rings, Have Space Suit Will Travel, Treasure Box, Alvin Maker, Inconstant Moon, Even the Queen, Babylon 5, Smallville, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, The Book of Mormon, The Old Testament, The New Testament, LDS Church History, my personal family history, The Matrix, Robin Hood (disney version), Rendesvous with Rama, 2001, A Song of Fire and Ice, Harry Potter, Red Mars, Lost Boys, Babel-17, The Great Divorce, Screwtape Letters, The Chronicles of Narnia, The Worthing Saga, The Foundation Trilogy, some of Asimov's Robot stories, Sandkings, The Forever War, Riverworld, Ringworld, Dune Series, A Canticle for Leibowitz, Flowers for Algernon, Cheers, Double Star, Farenheit 451, 1984, That Hideous Strength, The Demolished Man, To Serve Man, Brave New World, Ferris Bueller's Day Off, Princess Bride, and many, many others.
It's like the way they communicated in the ST:TNG episode "Darmok and Jilad at Tanagra". Shared stories become shorthand or "vocabulary stories" that we can use to communicate. When I say that something is like how Kirk and MacKoy were always confident of human's superiority over other races despite Spock's seeming superiority over both of them, it communicates a lot with very little.
In fact, when I read a really good book, that is part of why I always try to get my wife to read it -- so that we will have a greater shared vocabulary of stories.
I don't know how many times I said something like "It's like Paul Mua'Dib in Dune -- oh. I forget. You haven't read that yet. " before she finally read it.
But I almost never say anything akin to "it's like that situation in Half-Life...". It might have happened a couple of times with Deus Ex, but that would be it.
So, as I think about it, there are a few reasons why this might be:
Like I've been saying, maybe it's because the stories I've gotten from video games just aren't at the same level as the stories I get from books, TV, and movies.
Maybe it's because I read so much more than I play video games, and therefore have a much smaller pool of video game stories to draw from
As has been said to me, perhaps it is because I have been playing the wrong games.
There are many books, TV shows and movies, such as Zelazny's Amber series, that I've loved but that didn't make it into my above list of vocabulary stories. That doesn't mean that they weren't good stories -- it just means that they didn't resonate with my soul in such a way to become part of my vocaulary. Some of the games I've played have had interesting and engaging storylines. But that's not enough to make it stick to my psyche, which is what I'm talking about. Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
The Battle for Middle-Earth
Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
Actually, I just thought of a game that did do that for me -- StarCon II and StarCon III.
Posted by SteveRogers (Member # 7130) on :
The Jak trilogy is good for plot and fun. And its not extremely easy either. Jak and Daxter(the first one) wasn't too good, but Jak II and Jak III really shone through. Jak II and Jak III are good games to get addiceted to.
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
quote: I don't know how many times I said something like "It's like Paul Mua'Dib in Dune -- oh. I forget. You haven't read that yet. " before she finally read it.
Wow, that reminds me of a friend of mine who probably hasn't seen any movie that I have. I would say "you know, like in Gattaca", and she'd say "Gattaca? What's that?!". After a while I just assumed that she hasn't seen any of the movies I could think of. I made her a list of movies worth seeing to put her back on track...
Posted by A Rat Named Dog (Member # 699) on :
Anti, part of the phenomenon you're noticing may be the fact that non-interactive stories supply moral meaning by deciding what the characters do and assigning meaning to those choices. You don't recall JC Denton making some critical choice that affected you in the same way because when you played Deus Ex, it was YOU making the choice, not JC. It has a different impact, I think, when it works that way.
Doesn't mean that the stories are intrinsically worse. Only that the medium functions differently.
[ February 21, 2005, 06:02 AM: Message edited by: A Rat Named Dog ]
Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
Good point, Dog. While one may not be intrinsicly superior to the other, it is still very possible that [/i]I[i] get more out of one type of storytelling than the other.
That said, I'm going to try out some of these games. I'm playing through Grim Fandango right now, just bought Planescape: Torment, and I'm going to play through Deus Ex again. I'll let you know how it turns out.
Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
![[Wall Bash]](graemlins/wallbash.gif)
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Expletive!![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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" before she finally read it.