I suppose I should just stop trying to be thoughtful and gracious, as I obviously an incapable of succeeding at it.
I guess I could just go for all-purpose bitch.
I mean, we're supposed to use our talents, right? Not try to bury them . . .
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
You need to listen to the song "Bad Attitude". It's on "Relax Your Mind", Molly Mason and Jay Ungar. (It's very different from most of the songs on that album, but hilariously funny. It has one bad word, but nothing you don't see online almost everyday anyway. It rhymes with "glass".)
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
Are you saying I have a bad attitude? Wow! Am I ever offended!!!
I think the primary problem is that while I truly strive for tactfulness, my nature is more naturally blunt and outspoken . . .
*sigh*
So that even when I try really, really hard to be thoughtful and careful in how I say or write something, it still apparently gives folks heartburn.
I give up.
I'll just be me.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
No offense was intended, just fun.
Quote from the song:
"I'm not good at parties 'cause I don't mingle with ease (she doesn't mingle with ease) But I'm full of skepticism and harsh criticism's a breeze (bree-ee-ee-eeze). When I speak up now, people ask me how I can possibly be so ru-ude; I tell them, 'It's easy: I've got a bad attitude.'"
It's very tounge-in-cheek and funny. Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
Is everything ok Shan? Posted by dread pirate romany (Member # 6869) on :
Go easy on yourself Shan. Whatever the situation, I bet you didn't come off as pissy as you think you did.
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
KQ - I was teasing you . . . see! see - see what I mean!
I'm fine, Beren - just a wee bit irked.
Thanks, dpr - I don't personally think I was pissy . . . but the pastor obviously thought so and let me know about it quite clearly. On a Friday night, to ensure he talked with me before I left town -OH! Speaking of which, Nathan and I are on vacation,so afetr this a.m., I will be incommunicado until Wednesday next week . . .
*thinks some more* *sighs*
I had told y'all that Nathan and I think we have found a new church home. This has been a search (internal and external) over several months.
Since I'll be transferring membership, I wanted to send a loving thank you and fond farewell to the old congregation, and also some thoughtful feedback. Apparently, I'm allowed to say the loving thank you and fond farewell, but the other part was deemed "passive-aggressive" -
I spent a loooonnnggg time on this very brief letter - but to my mind, very important - because I have had 10 years plus with this congregation and I wanted to be able to say farewell as I headed into the new congregation.
I checked it over with dear friends (also congregation members that know the whole story) and they felt it was very gentle and loving, and said frankly they were surprised that there wasn't any barb to be found in it.
Just politics. Which irritate me.
Given the work I do, the fact that politics irritates me, surprises me . . .
Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
*hug Shan* I don't think you're a bitch. I think you're great.
Besides, your screen name is almost my real name, so that makes you extra special. Posted by Derrell (Member # 6062) on :
(((Shan))) I've never thought of you as a b****. Besides, isn't that the term for a female dog? You certainly aren't a dog.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I missed the smiley.
Sorry.
In all fairness to me, it was 2:10 am.
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
Shan, it's great that you put time and effort into giving thoughtful feedback. You even showed it to others to check on the tone, and they "felt it was very gentle and loving, and said frankly they were surprised that there wasn't any barb to be found in it." That was smart. I tend to lob verbal grenades during my graceful exits.
Some people just cannot take criticism gracefully. I am one, although I am much better than when I was younger. As a defense mechanism, they (I) dismiss almost any criticism, however true, however polite and well-meaning.
Don't beat yourself up about it, Shan-- you didn't do anything wrong.
[ February 19, 2005, 12:55 PM: Message edited by: Morbo ]
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
Shan, it would've been easy for you to just walk away and never shared your thoughts with them. I respect the fact that you took the time and energy to say farewell in a constructive manner. As for the people who failed to recognize a thoughtful gesture, well, you are better off without them.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Shan, this is an issue I have trouble with as well. It's really, really hard for me to walk the line between caustically sarcastic and helpful, constructive criticism. Sometimes I avoid the issue by refraining from any criticism -- even when it's really needed. Sometimes I just say "to heck with it" and fire with both barrels (I usually regret this).
Most of the time I go slowly and carefully, as you did in the example you gave. A fair percentage of the time, it is still perceived as snarky. If that is the case, I (well, this is what I try to do, at least) apologize and let it drop. And I tell myself (and I think I'm right) that I have done what I needed to do, and if there is still a problem, it's not mine.
"It is not incumbent upon you to finish the task. Yet, you are not free to desist from it."
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
Better yet, just remember*:
Oh Lord, its hard to be humble When you're perfect in every way I can't wait to look in the mirror Cuz I get better lookin each day * With a to Mac Davis
[ February 20, 2005, 11:42 PM: Message edited by: aspectre ]
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Shan, you have about as much chance of being untactful as I have of being tactful. You are the soul of propriety. Don't confuse weakness in others for a flaw in yourself, sweets.
[ February 21, 2005, 10:59 AM: Message edited by: Storm Saxon ]
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
And a heh, heh to aspectre. Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
I don't think you're what you called yourself at all, Shan. I've never seen any evidence of it.
But...I have to agree with the criticism as you're leaving thing being not appropriate. It's much like the Goodbye Cruel Hatrack threads. I think it follows from the idea that only those that love a place or a community or a person gets to criticize, and if you're leaving a church, you're also turning in your license to shape that church. If you loved it, you'd stay and work it out. If you don't, then you don't get to criticize. Does that make sense?
[ February 21, 2005, 10:49 AM: Message edited by: Lady Jane ]
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
I disagree. Strongly.
When I am teaching somewhere, I don't do much criticizing of the school -- I like keeping my job, and not making the work environment uncomfortable. The only time I have seriously considered making significant (although still vary carefully and caringly phrased) comments about a school was when I was leaving.
I held back, both times -- once I ended up going back, and the second time I wanted to use them as a reference. And more importantly, didn't care enough about the place to invest myself in helping them change.
Just because you're leaving doesn't mean you don't care enough to help them become better. And that's what constructive criticism is supposed to be for.
[ February 21, 2005, 10:59 AM: Message edited by: rivka ]
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
quote:And more importantly, didn't care enough about the place to invest myself in helping them change.
Exactly. That's exactly what I mean - if you don't care enough to help the change, then you're saying the cutting remarks to people you don't care about on your way out the door. It shouldn't be a surprise that the recipient tells you what you can do with them.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
No, you misunderstand me. I did not tell them what I thought they should do different in that case, because I was not invested in that place.
If I had been, even if I were choosing to leave I would have risked having them as a reference. Choosing to leave and being invested in the betterment of a place are NOT mutually exclusive.
Moreover, I took great care on both occasions (even though in the end I decide against giving either letter to the intended recipient) to make the remarks as far from "cutting" as possible.
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
Ahhhh - it's lovely to be home! Thank you everyone for the positive thoughts and encouragement.
Lady Jane, I'm with Rivka on this one - I have invested a decade in this congregation, and it's my love not only for them but for myself and Nathan that says it's time to find a new church home.
As a congregation they truly are going in a totally different path - and it's one that I am unable to support. Having said that, it is also very clear that it is a path that works quite for well for some folks in the congregation.
I said absolutely nothing in my brief letter that pointed fingers or cast stones - ahh, shucks - here it is - take a look:
quote: Dear G.S. Members:
I am writing to say a fond farewell and fervent thank you. Over ten years ago, you welcomed a frightened, angry, lonely single mother with open arms, clothing me in a choir robe and placing a hymnal in my hand. Loving arms held my child and me, encouraging me to achieve my dreams and goals - and leading me back into a communion from which I had strayed early on in my young adult years.
My dreams and goals continue to blossom and grow - and I believe I have grown in ways that diverge from the path G.S. now walks. In my heart, I recognize the value of G.S.'s approach to worship and service. In my heart of hearts, I long to focus on the still, small voice that speaks to all of us - and which for me needs a more reflective and low-key approach to worship. In my heart of hearts, mission for me belongs in my neighborhood, with my neighbor, right next door.
G.S. has taught me that I am indeed "blessed to be a blessing" - and has given me the space, time, encouragement and support to come to realize God's grace in my life more fully. I believe God is calling me to explore new avenues of worship and service - and I am answering that call. I know that I go with your blessing and love - and I will always look forward to coming home to visit with you all.
Peace, S- B-
Anyway - that's all I said.
aspectre - I utterly ADORE that song. My dad taught it to me when I was very young, and I have never ever forgotten it! Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
Shan, I find nothing wrong with that letter.
quote:If I had been, even if I were choosing to leave I would have risked having them as a reference. Choosing to leave and being invested in the betterment of a place are NOT mutually exclusive.
I think that if you do not care enough to mention the issues while you are there and instead wait until you are leaving to say them, then you don't care enough to have earned the right to say it. Unless asked for suggestions, you either stay and fix, or bow out gracefully.
It's like...it's like breaking up with someone by giving them a long letter telling them of their flaws.
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
Ahh - see that's where you don't have enough information about the background - one of the difficulties with forum discussions, I suppose . . .
The issues that concern me I HAVE been working on - for years - and it is apparent to me that while some folks "may" be bothered, for most, it's an okay direction. Just not okay for me -
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
*nod* In my case as well, it was certainly not issues I had never mentioned before. It was thing I had mentioned, but felt unable to push strongly, lest I make my job situation uncomfortable.
And I have been at the receiving end of a "this is why I want a divorce" letter. Leaving aside the fact that I didn't think any of the issues were reason enough to get a divorce, many (though not all) of the issues raised were valid. I kept that letter for a long time, to help remind me to work on certain things about myself that needed changing.
[ February 23, 2005, 11:34 PM: Message edited by: rivka ]
Posted by LadyDove (Member # 3000) on :
Shan-
I think that "bitchiness" is an important tool to have in your bag. It's the tool you use when sweetness, gentle prodding and reason fail.
I have been called bitchy, or the tactful "aggressive", on more than one occasion. I used to get offended, but I realized that I was called that by the same people who came to me to use my "talents" to solve problems that they couldn't solve themselves.
I think that you can tell whether or not you are using the "tool" properly, if you solve more problems than you create for yourself or others with your methods.
In any case, I think that it is not only okay, but classy to leave and give your personal written reason for leaving. It squelches the inevitable gossip and allows the pastor, if he's mature enough to grow, to see areas where he can improve his ministry.
Nice letter. And I think that if that's your best attempt at being bitchy, you need to go to the pastor for lessons.
Posted by MichelleEly (Member # 6737) on :
"Sometimes being a bitch is all a woman has left to hold onto." -Dolores Claiborne Michelle
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
LadyDove - bless you!
My coffee had not quite finished brewing yet, so I didn't need to clean the screen . . . but it was a close thing!
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