quote:

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"Our typical image of how we feed infants is to stick a bottle in their mouth. We need to make breast-feeding the standard way we think of infants being fed," said Laurence Grummer-Strawn, chief of maternal and child nutrition at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC).

Nursing should continue until the baby is at least 1 year old, and there is no problem with continuing into the third year of life or longer, the new policy states. Other health groups, such as the World Health Organization, recommend breast-feeding for two years or more.

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I have to say, I find this pretty exciting .
 

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Posted by TheHumanTarget (Member # 7129) on :
 
I whole-heartedly agree. I see no reason that I can't be publicly breast-fed! Just because I'm 28 years old, I'm always getting hassled! I don't arrest you for eating a burger at McDonalds, and I demand equality!
 

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Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
 
dpr, I suspect that part of the reason most women stop breastfeeding exclusively before their child is 6 months old is that it's nearly impossible to do so and work outside the home.

Hard to believe that a flight attendant would be that callous -- I would think he'd be *grateful* the baby wasn't screaming his head off.
 

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Posted by TheHumanTarget (Member # 7129) on :
 
I'm just amused by the level of concern surrounding breast-feeding, but I suppose that's what we can expect based on the overreaction to last years SuperBowl half-time show.
We're very puritanical when it comes to any form of nudity, but revel in levels of violence that would put barbarians to shame.
 

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
 
In all fairness violence can be faked, and you can't really do that with nudity...

Hobbes
 

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Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
 

quote:

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The recommendations also challenge society to support breast-feeding by enacting legislation to protect it, setting expectations in the workplace and considering it in custody settlements. [Emphasis added]

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If you're the father of a toddler and divorcing, you can just forget about getting custody right now. All your other qualities, and those of your spouse, have been trumped by the ability to breastfeed.
 

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Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
 
Consider = trumped. Nice.
 

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Posted by TheHumanTarget (Member # 7129) on :
 
Hobbes,
Is faking violence better than showing real violence? Is there a discernable differnce? I'd take real nudity over fake violence any day (I will admit to some bias )
 

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Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
People need to realize that just because you're still breastfeeding doesn't mean you shouldn't start other foods, though. I know a two year old who's still almost exclusively breastfed, and she's very, very tiny. She really should be eating other things as well by now.

Not that I have a problem with extended breastfeeding; I'd continue until Ems was at least two myself if I didn't plan to be pregnant again by then. However, she's doing really well with other foods as part of her diet, and I don't intend to stop her progress in that area just because I want to keep breastfeeding her.
 

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Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
 
Trish, mothers already get greater consideration than fathers do--to an unfair extent, I believe. What effect do you think a specific recommendation to consider breastfeeding in custody decisions will have?
 

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
 

quote:

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Hobbes,
Is faking violence better than showing real violence? Is there a discernable differnce? I'd take real nudity over fake violence any day (I will admit to some bias )

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If I kill someone that's a lot worse than pretending I'd killed someone in a movie...

Hobbes
 

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Posted by dread pirate romany (Member # 6869) on :
 

quote:

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If you're the father of a toddler and divorcing, you can just forget about getting custody right now. All your other qualities, and those of your spouse, have been trumped by the ability to breastfeed.

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No, I think this is saying that a toddler's need to not be forcibly weaned will be balanced against the relative parenting skills of the mother and father.It may also bring about "graduated" plans where joint custody is the goal,but cold turkey night weaning or being away from mom for three weeks would be traumatic for the baby. If the father is overall a better parent, of course the decision should be made for him.
 

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Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
It also might mean a stipulation that the father must be willing to feed the baby pumped milk rather than formula, and to accomadate said pumping if necessary.
 

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Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
 
On the general issue of custody, Icarus, I agree it should be a more level playing field mainly to discourage people from getting divorced. If a woman is confident she'll get to keep the kids, it undermines fairness in divorce mediation IMHO.

But the value of breastfeeding is a real factor and should play into custody arrangements for any child up to a year in age at least.

[ February 07, 2005, 04:00 PM: Message edited by: mothertree ]
 

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Posted by dread pirate romany (Member # 6869) on :
 
kq, I didn't read anything that suggested to me an older baby should not have other foods. Simply that there is no need to wean once the baby reaches a certain age. Which is good, since so many of my freinds have said, "Oh she's turning (one/one and a half/ six months) soon so I HAVE to wean". It should always be a personal decision, which means woman should know there's not an "expiration date".
 

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Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
Oh, I wasn't talking about the recommendations. Just about people who get overzealous and take it too far.

And personally, when my daughter wasn't gaining weight, I added formula to her diet (replacing 2 of her solid food feedings, not nursing sessions) as well as trying to change her nursing habits. I think mothers should also know it's not an all-or-nothing thing. If all you can do is before you leave for work and after you get home at night, that's better than nothing. Too many times it's stressed so much, I think women just decide if they can't do it all the time, they just won't do it at all. It needs to be whatever works for both mother and baby.
 

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Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
 
kq...a two year old being almost exclusively breast-fed is...well, IMO, that's criminal neglect. A child that old cannot possibly get all the nourishment they need from breastmilk alone. It's good stuff but not that good. 'Sides...when in the world does the mom think that child is going to get used to solid foods if not now? Sorry, especially if she's your friend...I can't picture that mother as anything other than neurotic, serving her own needs instead of her child's. To the point of neglect.
 

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Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
She's not my friend, don't worry. She's my second cousin. I hardly ever see her.

And don't worry, her mom called my mom and asked my mom to talk some sense into her, as a loving cousin and as a health care professional. When my mom goes to stop something, it stops. She'll almost certainly cut back to morning and night by the end of the month.
 

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Posted by dread pirate romany (Member # 6869) on :
 

quote:

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kq...a two year old being almost exclusively breast-fed is...well, IMO, that's criminal neglect.

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Unless the child has severe allergies.
My daughter would projectile vomit everything but breastmilk until 13 months. She was tiny then..but..she didn't actually gain any weight when she started solids. There are rare, but existing health considerations that may make it neccesary.

But if the kid sis perfectly healthy, then it seems the mom is trying to prove something and has to actually hold the kid back from chowing down on solids.
 

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Posted by TheHumanTarget (Member # 7129) on :
 
Okay, Hobbes, my stuffed-tiger friend, let me 'splain...no, let me sum up...

In the purely pretend realm of entertainment, violence is as real as nudity. In the real world, killing someone is much worse than flashing them (I think).

Back on topic, though, I think the push for breast-feeding should be tempered by the fact that not all mothers can breast-feed, and should in no way be made to feel inadequate because of it.
 

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
 

quote:

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In the purely pretend realm of entertainment, violence is as real as nudity. In the real world, killing someone is much worse than flashing them (I think).

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Nudity is nudity, if you show someone's breasts on television then they're nude, and making fake breasts that look exactly like real breasts or something like that don't solve the issue most people have with nudity.

Violence is bad because it hurts someone, you can get rid of that problem in the media (fake hurting people). Do I think there's too much violence and an lax standards regarding it? Yes I do, but fundementally you can have fake violence, what the equivelent for fake nudity?

Ohh, and of course I agree that real violence is much worse than "real" nudity, I wasn't trying to argue that.

Hobbes
 

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Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
 
*whew* I'm glad to hear that. Stories like that make me want to jump in my car and go steal children from their parents. Which, aside from being terribly illegal, isn't always the best way to solve a problem.

I wonder how her little daughter is going to take the change. Starting solids now is going to seem really weird to her, I should think.
 

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Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
Yes, but my mom is an RN/OTR who works with kids with craniofacial disorders, many of whom have feeding problems, so I'm sure she'll have some good advice.
 

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Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
 
dpr, I thought about severe food allergies when I was writing that post, but it occurred to me that you can't breastfeed a child into adulthood, even with severe food allergies. By age 2, something else would have to be figured out, I would think.

I'm glad your daughter is doing better now. The banana-formula smoothies still popular?
 

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Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
Oh, heck yes. She would take more if I let her, but since she's gaining steadily and I want to hold nursing where it is for right now, I'm mean and make her drink only 2 6-oz. sippy cups full a day.
 

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Posted by Amka (Member # 690) on :
 
From the article

quote:

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infant mortality is 21 percent lower in breast-fed babies

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Wow... I mean, a doctor will do a Cesaerean for less risk than that.

I've been doing a bit of research as well, and one thing I had never thought of is the problem of human error in the production of formula. There have actually been deaths due to such errors before the formula was recalled.
 

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Posted by TheHumanTarget (Member # 7129) on :
 
Let me just say again, Not all women can breast feed. My wife was unable to for different reasons with both of our daughters, and the open scorn she received distorted my perception on the righteousness of this issue.
 

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Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
 
That's awesome, kq!
 

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Posted by Christy (Member # 4397) on :
 

quote:

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dpr, I suspect that part of the reason most women stop breastfeeding exclusively before their child is 6 months old is that it's nearly impossible to do so and work outside the home.

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quote:

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infant mortality is 21 percent lower in breast-fed babies

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quote:

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You think the AAP is picking its statistics to promote an agenda CT?

Excuse me while I adjust my wedgie. I'm just facing pressure to wean my 20 month old. It's not her sole source of nourishment. Trust me, I'd love it if she would decide she was done. So I'm very neurotic about the whole situation.

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I'm sorry about your wedgie.

I'm delighted about the new recommendations. I'm pro-breastfeeding, myself. On the other hand, I don't think it would be useful to cherry-pick studies which may not have been well-done. In my opinion, the case is strong enough without overstatement, and doing so would just undercut the reliability and strength of the argument.

There is definite and clear benefit to breastfeeding to decrease the incidence of ear infections and certain other causes of morbidity.
Overstating that case isn't necessary in order to make the important point. I personally think there is more than sufficient accurately presented information to make the benefits of breastfeeding clear.

There is also a need for iron and calorie supplementation (as well as some other nutrients) for babies that are exclusively breastfed past 6 months of age, if you want to optimize growth and development. doesn't mean they shouldn't be breastfed, just that it's worth doing carefully. Which -- I am sure -- you are.

I like the Rehydration Project's Guidelines for Appropriate COmplementary Feeding of Breastfed Chidren Age 6-24 Months. Rehydration.org is very breast-friendly, and they encourage long-term breastfeeding. They are also quite evidence-based and practical.
 

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Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
 

quote:

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I also think that much of what goes on in the hospital discourages breastfeeding or makes it more difficult. For instance, my sister and her baby got a truly horrible case of thrush because the nurses gave her a broad spectrum antibiotic for type B Strep. They use that because it can be stored right there on the floor and doesn't require a trip to the hospital pharmacy. But killing off so many bacteria actually makes the body more vulnerable to yeast infections.

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quote:

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Appropriate complementary feeding involves a combination of practices to maintain breastmilk intake and, at the same time, improve the quantity and quality of foods children consume. The 6– 11 month period is an especially vulnerable time because infants are just learning to eat and must be fed soft foods frequently and patiently. Care must be taken to ensure that these foods complement rather than replace breastmilk. For older infants and toddlers, breastmilk continues to be an important source of energy, protein, and micronutrients. Therefore, breastfeeding should continue through 24 months and beyond.

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Honest, just because I insist on rigor for the science doesn't mean I don't agree that the Breast is Best. I do.
 

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Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
 
mack, I've always wondered about post-partum depression in your mother.
 

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Posted by dread pirate romany (Member # 6869) on :
 
Amka

quote:

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That being said, there is a standard broad-spectrum antibiotic given to prevent Group B streptococcal sepsis, and I doubt there was a better choice available (regardless of storage issues).

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quote:

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When anti-biotics are neccesary, there are measures that can ( and, IMO, should, ) be taken to prevent thrush. (Experience has made me a reluctant thrush expert). Probiotic supplement, avoidance of sugars by the mother, air drying the breasts to avoid that damp environment the yeatsies love.

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Sure enough! Even if they used the proper antibiotic, doesn't necessarily mean the total care was optimized.

dpr, have you had any experience with Gentian violet (purple-staining plant extract) for thrush? I think it is more effective than the traditional antifungals against Candida. [Major Bummer: "though it seems Candida albicans is starting to show some resistance to gentian violet, as it is to other antifungal agents." ]

quote:

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Re: the work issue, I think the guidelines may make it more likely a mother can combine breastfeeding and work. It will raise awareness in employers to the importance of breastfeeding, inspire mothers to "push harder", and maybe even bring about "mother/baby friendly workplace" legislation.

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In Wisconsin, some as yet unpublished research indicates that the reason more Native American mothers are not breastfeeding is that they feel pressure to return to work in the casinos in order to keep their jobs. Which is really a shame, as breastfeeding seems to help both childhood and maternal obesity in this population. That has serious implications for diabetes.

I believe many of the casinos have breastfeeding/-pumping rooms, but I doubt they are conveniently loated. There also may be a tradeoff between smoking break time and breastpumping time.

[ February 07, 2005, 06:04 PM: Message edited by: ClaudiaTherese ]
 

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Posted by dread pirate romany (Member # 6869) on :
 
(((mack, I wonder about your mom too))
 

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Posted by Amka (Member # 690) on :
 
I have to second dpr in congratulating tht's wife on pumping for six months. That is fantastic dedication.

CT, I think you are right about the statistics. They are most likely skewed by other factors.
 

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Posted by dread pirate romany (Member # 6869) on :
 
CT, yes, I have gone through several bottles of Gentian Violet. It worked much better than even the powefrul anti-fangals, like Diflucan, for us.
 

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Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
 
The sad thing is that the case is strong enough on its own merits. I think there was a lot of behind-the-scene politics on this one. The outcome is good, but I wonder about what went on behind it.

Nonetheless, I could be totally wrong about the studies. I will have to look to be sure.

Unfortunately, dpr, looks like yeast is developing resistance to GV too.
 

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Posted by dread pirate romany (Member # 6869) on :
 

quote:

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Unfortunately, dpr, looks like yeast is developing resistance to GV too

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!@#$%^&*! All the more reason for me to completely eliminate sugar.
 

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Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
 
Yeah. I am, like, totally bummed.

I woke up with a stomach bug and went heaving in the bathroom. The day went downhill from there, but this is the worst part.

Frequin' resistance.

Yeah, preventive med is the way to go.
 

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Posted by dread pirate romany (Member # 6869) on :
 
I wonder about the statistics too. Obviously poverty plays a big part of it.....we (as a society) need to be doing more to help lower income mothers and babies. I mean, no baby should have to live in an environment where they are exposed to roach feces and rat bites.

But, I think any of these mothers who do breastfeed, may up their babies chances due to the increased immune factors.
 

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Posted by dread pirate romany (Member # 6869) on :
 
((((CT)))

Stomach bugs suck, the boys and I had one last week. Not fun
 

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Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
 
CT, I've thrown up more in the past month and a half than the previous ten years combined. There's definitely something going around.
 

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Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
 
My wife tried hard to breastfeed both our kids after they were born. And I so wanted her to be able to. We both did everything in our power to let her breastfeed, even renting a powerful pump from the hospital so I could do the feeding at night. But she needed adequate sleep every night--and even just getting up to pump and letting me (or one of our moms) take care of the baby through the night was too much. And when both kids were just a couple of weeks old, she ended up having to take medication that was just too dangerous for breastfeeding.

I am an advocate of breastfeeding, even though I have personally fed hundreds of bottles of formula to both of my kids.
 

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Posted by Yozhik (Member # 89) on :
 

quote:

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And when both kids were just a couple of weeks old, she ended up having to take medication that was just too dangerous for breastfeeding.

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I worry that this might happen to me when I have kids. I could probably last through the gestation period without antidepressants, but for years after that... I just don't know.
 

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Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
 
The Politics of Breastfeeding

A must read for anyone remotely interested in the topic- it covers socioeconomics, the history of formula, health, commercialism, advertising, government, big business, grassroots advocacy . . .

Read, read, read . . .
 

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Posted by DocCoyote (Member # 5612) on :
 
Given the reference to the airline incident in the article, the most ironic thing to me is that when Matt was 4 months old, we flew from Florida to Philly to visit the family and had the following experience. When I started breastfeeding the boy, the elderly gentleman in the next seat looked over and said, "You must be a great mother to take care of your baby so well." I always made it a habit to feed Matt as we were landing (he was a lap passenger), to keep his ears cleared.

I was lucky in that I almost always had positive reactions from people around me regarding breastfeeding.

Lisa

Lisa
 

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Posted by Amka (Member # 690) on :
 
It occurs to me that perhaps we need to be more aggressive in marketing breastfeeding.

When I went in to the doctor for the first time because I was pregnant, I got a bag of stuff. There was a book and other info from the doctor's office, and several samples of prenatal vitamins. But the bag was from a formula company. The diaper changer pad from the formula company. Packets of advertising.

What if breastfeeding advocates started putting together their own bags for the doctor's offices to use? And then for the hospitals? There would be lots of good information about breastfeeding. Contacts with LLL and good lactation consultants.

Really. We can't just wish people would know more. We have to be proactive about it.

We need to arrange positive educational meetings with nursing staff.
 

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Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
When I transfered to my new doctor, the receptionist asked if I intended to breastfeed, and gave me a copy of The New Mother's Guide to Breastfeeding (a 120 page book with illustrations, a chart to keep track of feedings/diapers, a troubleshooting guide, etc., very helpful), along with a list of breastfeeding support resources in the area, etc.

I agree they ought to do more, though.

And there were some commercials that were supposed to run on tv, but they got first censored, then their run time was limited, because the formula companies lobbied very hard against them.

[ February 08, 2005, 12:10 PM: Message edited by: ketchupqueen ]
 

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Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
 
There's so little money to be made in breastfeeding. Selling formula, on the other hand, is making a lot of people very wealthy. I imagine that's what's driving the diaper bags stuffed with merchandise that they give you at the hospital.

I must say I appreciated all the free samples and the coupons for formula that came with both our babies. We didn't think we would use them either time, but they ended up coming in handy. I can't stand how much formula costs, but when it's a necessity, any freebies are very welcome. We even signed up with the Similac and Enfamil member's clubs just so they would keep sending us coupons.
 

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Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
 
There's a distinct lack of funding for this kind of thing - there are immediate profits in the formula industry, but there not a breastfeeding industry. Advocacy must be publicly funded then, which means it's competing with the fifty thousand other good causes out there.

Added: Jinx, afr.

[ February 08, 2005, 12:14 PM: Message edited by: Lady Jane ]
 

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Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
You see, I hate it when people are aggressive about breastfeeding, which is why I avoided La Leche League. I read "A Nursing Mother's Companion" instead.
 

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Posted by TheHumanTarget (Member # 7129) on :
 
Elizabeth, I think it's most peoples natural tendency to rebel against anything that they perceive as being forced on them. Both of my daughters were primarily formual fed, and I personally think they've turned out better than everyone else's children...
 

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Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
 
Buy me a coke.
 

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Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
Elizabeth, at the clinic my daughter goes to, they seem surprised every time I remind them that my daughter is still breastfed. While I've never been to La Leche League because I feel that they're a little too forceful for me, a little bit of a bigger push might help some of the moms at the clinic we attend realize that breastfeeding is better for their baby and them if they can manage it, for as long as they can manage it, and not abandon the idea before they start. (I've spent a lot of time talking to mothers in the waiting room who never started because "I was going to have to go back to work in a month and a half anyway, and there was no point"; while I respect that decision, I think with a little more education and support, some of them at least might have tried it at least for a month and a half, which is better than nothing!)
 

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Posted by TheHumanTarget (Member # 7129) on :
 
..teach the world to sing.
 

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Posted by Amka (Member # 690) on :
 
Elizabeth,

Such a bag would be no more forceful, I believe, than the information the formula companies hand out. Why would one be more offensive than the other? I think providing such bags would be a practical thing for local groups to engage in.

I, myself, went only to one LLL meeting and decided it wasn't for me. But I'm not one to be primarily motivated by group situations either.
 

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Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
 
AFR hits the nail on the head. Money is a big issue in the promotion of breastfeeding.

Formula is big business, and formula companies work hard to maintain their market share, giving away freebies to doctors, hospitals, clinics, and patients. They give lip service to the positive benefits of breastfeeding, while subtly undermining the process - if every woman breastfed her baby - or even if a majority of women breastfed their babies - the formula companies would go out of business. (And dispite what you may have heard, it is the extremely rare woman who cannot breastfeed her baby with the proper help and support).

For more on this topic, check out the book Milk, Money and Madness. It's an eye opener (as is The Politics of Breastfeeding, mentioned above by Shan).

There is not a similar financial backing for the promotion of breastfeeding because, let's face it, no one can make money on it. Additionally, many breastfeeding promotion projects end up being watered down due to the influence of industry.

There are some organizations that are working to promote breastfeeding, but it is in an uphill battle. La Leche League, International Lactation Consultant Association, International Board of Lactation Consultant Examiners, and National Alliance for Breastfeeding Advocacy are some organizations that promote breastfeeding in the US and internationally.

[ February 08, 2005, 01:57 PM: Message edited by: Ela ]
 

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Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
 

quote:

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AFR hits the nail on the head.

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*pout*
 

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Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
 
Sorry, Kat, AFR said it first.

I didn't see your post.
 

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Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
 
Getting such a bag into use would consist of three general steps:

1. Funding

Mainly, you need funding for the materials in the bag and the bag itself. This can likely be obtained through various organizations, particularly grant giving ones, and in kind donations (local printers are a good place to go to about getting printing donated). If any "freebies" are being provided, funding for those (or in kind donation) must be discovered.

2. Volunteers

Volunteers are needed to put the bags together and to prepare the information on the materials in the bag (and what the bag will look like). The latter should be done in a two step process, first someone/a group who decide what information/viewpoints/ideas will be conveyed, and then someone/a group who does the layout and design involved. There's likely a local graphic designer who would be happy to contribute.

3. Lobbying

Getting the bag into the offices. The following strategy would likely be effective: going into the office with a sample bag (and more out in the vehicle if they're interested right away), talking to the receptionist first for a bit and setting an appointment to talk with the doctors (or whoever in the office would make the decision). At the appointment, talk to them about just wanting to ensure people have information about the option, a little small talk about the health benefits of breast feeding, and inform them about how their name and logo will go on a page on the website for being kind enough to give out these bags.

Maintenance:

sort of an additional step, and very necessary. As mentioned in 3, there should be a website. Doesn't have to be very complex, though it could be used to coordinate efforts. Basically an info page, a page listing doctor's offices distributing the bag, and a page of links to more information would be all that's necessary. This website is necessary because it needs to be in the material available so that when people tell other people about the effort, they can go "oh, just go to . . . . and it has all the information".

Also, you need to have loose checks on that doctor's offices really are distributing the bags. When people say they got a bag, ask them where, and notice if you never hear from someone getting a bag there. Just generally keep one's eyes and ears open.

There needs to be a system in place for getting doctors more bags when they need them. When a doctor's office agrees to carry bags, drop off a nice, laminated info sheet with what to do (basically, "email us at _____ for more bags", plus some other contact info). Stop by at the predicted interval the office will need more bags (just ask them about how many they estimate they'll go through in a month, and divide into however many you drop off) and ask if they need more or will soon.

There needs to be a system for updating the bag. Someone who keeps up on developments in research and such should review the information in the bag regularly (something like every 2 months) for accuracy. Partly for this reason the bag should avoid mentioning "current" dates -- that way they never have to be updated. Basically, don't put 2005 (or whichever year) in the graphics.

Every 6 months or a year the bag should undergo a more thorough review and revision. Doesn't have to be too elaborate, but should be thorough and inclusionary (get comments from some of the doctors distributing the bag, for instance). The more stakeholders that can be involved, the more buy in and the more legitimacy the effort will have.

As part of the maintenance effort, new and reliable funding will have to be continually sought.

You may have guessed I put some thought into social activism and the dissemination of information .
 

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Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
Okay, who wants to form a non-profit with me and do this thing?
 

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Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
Ela, just because I know some women who are members, and they tend to be what I'd call "breastfeeding Nazis"; they are the people who give me guff for supplementing Emma at all, saying that if I was doing it right, I wouldn't need to, when in every generation for the past 5, I know there has been one child who needed additional supplementation.

Anyway, if I had had a problem nursing, I wouldn't have had a problem going to LLL for help. However, I am not into a support group for something I personally don't need support in, who will tell me what to do and all.
 

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Posted by Christy (Member # 4397) on :
 
I do think it might be something to lobby the existing breastfeeding organizations about. Great list, Fugu!

Ela -- I think the whole non-profit group idea was a joke.

[ February 08, 2005, 02:37 PM: Message edited by: Christy ]
 

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Posted by dread pirate romany (Member # 6869) on :
 
I would loce to see bags like that too. I have often wondered why some of the companies like Medela and Motherwear don't get together with LLL, etc and do this? I mean, if you're like me, and need "specialty" nursing bras, of if you're going back to work and are pumping, there is some money to be made.

The most I have seen in promotion is the little card with a Lansinoh sample my MW gives out.
 

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Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
Yeah, I can think of lots of things that could go in such a bag: coupons for nursing bra/attire savings, Tums samples and coupons, LLL pamphlets, Avent, Medela, etc. coupons and brochures and even some sample breastmilk storage bags, disposable nursing pads, a "guide to healthy eating for nursing mothers", etc.
 

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Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
 
You're right. A company that sells breast pumps might have some success doing a bag for mothers. Maybe drop some lanolin in, some pads, and some good information about breastfeeding, plus some brochures for breast pumps and nursing bras/accessories. Teamed up with a breastfeeding organization, it might be pretty effective.
 

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Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
 
Motherwear does have an outreach program, including a free information pack. They also have breastfeeding resources posted online.

Medela and Ameda, the breast pump companies, both have excellent information sheets on a variety of breastfeeding topics that can be obtained by health care professionals and hospitals and handed out to new mother. (We had Medela sheets in the mother baby unit where I worked as a nurse, and I often handed out the sheets to moms, though they were not routinely used by all of the staff.) Much of this information now appears to be available at the websites of those breast pump companies.

I know that when I worked as a lactation consultant in private practice we used to hand out information of this type regularly. Motherwear provided their handout information to us in large quantities for free, and Medela and Ameda gave it free to retailers when requested with an order of their products for resale(we sold and rented breast pumps and related items) . Lansinoh also makes samples of their hypoallergenic lanolin available to both professionals and volunteers who counsel breastfeeding moms.

The thing to do would be to make your local hospitals, doctors, and other healthcare providers aware of this information by providing samples and talking it up. Often you can get local donors to help finance such projects. Also, in some communities, interested professional and laypeople participate in Breastfeeding Task forces, with the goal of promoting breastfeeding in their communities.

Just some ideas for those who might be interested.

[ February 08, 2005, 04:17 PM: Message edited by: Ela ]
 

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Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
 
I just want to add that a lot of promotion activities are going on, but they are not equally visible in all communities, and can often be overshadowed by the promotion of formula and other profit-making products.
 

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Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
I'm sorry, I should have been more clear. I think the "breast feeding bags" idea is great, I just didn't like the LLL book. I preferred "A Nursing Mother's Companion."
I appreciate all the organization does/has done for women!
I think the most important resource for women is other women, and the more clumped an area is in breastfeeding, the more success breastfeding has. (As "DPR County" proves)(what thread werewe having this discussion in? It was not a breastfeeding thread)

DPR, how lucky am I to live 20 minutes away from the old Motherwear outlet? We would go and get bras and shirts for a few bucks each. Now, they have gone retail, I believe.
 

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Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
 
I remember when Motherwear was a brand new company with only a few items sold by mail, all of which pretty much had a homemade look. (I still have some of those items.)

That was a long time ago.
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
Elizabeth, I also adored Nursing Mother's Companion. Which is heartily endorsed by La Leche (and I thought was published by them but apparently not).

Small books containing the first two chapters of the book are included by many hospitals here as part of the going-home pack (along with all the formula samples and such).
 

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Posted by dread pirate romany (Member # 6869) on :
 
Liz, I forget now! But I still LOL at "dpr county" .

One thing I took advantage of from Motherwear, was an an employer,I used some of the "Breastfeeding Welcome Here" items. I have only hd one employee besides myself have a baby since I took my job, but since my arena is the nursery , I like having a big sign that lets any mom who enters know, if she does not fell comfortable nursing elsewhere at the church, there is a comfy chair, privacy, and water awaiting her here.

(unfortunately, all these nifty accomodations, paired with my personality type, make it al so easy for me to return to work with a 9 day old in a sling).
 

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Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
 

quote:

---

You see, I hate it when people are aggressive about breastfeeding, which is why I avoided La Leche League. I read "A Nursing Mother's Companion" instead.

---

I did not breastfeed any of my children. There were reasons for that, and no it wasn't convenience. I discussed it with my doctor before hand, we talked pros and cons, I watched several videos he gave me on breast feeding, I attended the breast feeding prenatal class, I really wanted to make it work, but we decided it would not.

I was so hurt by the way I was treated in the hospital, I cried for days. When a friend of mine had her baby, and started breast feeding, then wound up having to stop, I went to her house and held her while she wept. Why? Because when she called for advice, she was told all kinds of reasons why she had to keep breast feeding, and when they called to check on her again, and she said she'd given her screaming baby a bottle and now that baby was sleeping peacefully, she was yelled at. Yelled at. Accused of abusing her child. They actually said the words "You realize this is a form of child abuse?" Told her she must not care about her child's brain development, and didn't care if her kid was stupid or not.

The pro-breastfeeding crowd has made me so upset and angry in the past I have a hard time staying calm when it's discussed. I wish with all my heart that Ela had been in the hospital when I was there, because from our conversations, she is, I can say, the first person I've ever met associated with La Leche League that I didn't want to hit.

I will never forget how I was treated, and believe me I wrote a letter to the hospital complaining. Then, 8 years later when I was pregnant with my twins and in a multiples class, our instructor (a nurse at the hospital) asked if we were going to breast feed or not and I said no. I then told her I had little respect for the nurses and the LLL workers at the hospital and she said, "Oh, you've had run-ins with the breast nazis too. You wouldn't believe the number of complaints we get."

That's ridiculous. No woman should go through what my friend and I did. If LLL wants to encourage breast-feeding, they should stop being cruel to people who wind up making other choices. It gives them a bad name, and then a pregnant woman isn't as likely to listen to them, because she hears horror stories from people like me.
 

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Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
I'm so sorry, Belle. But I have to say, everyone I've met from LLL has been the exact same way. Maybe it's different in different regions, but I have heard women who are not breastfeeding get chewed out for it. A woman who has just had a baby does not need that.
 

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Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
 
I am sorry to hear that both of you, Belle and KQ, have had bad experiences with La Leche League. That is unfortunate. La Leche League is a good organization, overall, and has some excellent breastfeeding information. I know many women who have been helped by them.

[ February 09, 2005, 12:48 AM: Message edited by: Ela ]
 

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Posted by dread pirate romany (Member # 6869) on :
 
I ma very sorry to hear that too, Belle and kq.
 

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Posted by maui babe (Member # 1894) on :
 
I breastfed all of my children and it was overall a very positive experience. I was very lucky in that while nursing my first child, I didn't have any major issues (other than her wanting to eat all the time). When my second came along, I had cracked bleeding nipples and we both got severe thrush, so I had a harder time of it, but since I'd had such a positive experience the first time, I knew what it *should* be like, so I was able to get through it. If I'd had that experience the first time, I doubt I would have stuck it out to be honest.

I've had two experiences with LLL. The first was when I had my issues with my second child. I called the number I was given at the hospital, and the member encouraged me and it was great. My major concern was whether the blood from my cracked nipples was a hazard to my baby, and was assured it wasn't. Of course, the advice today might be very different, as this was before AIDS and the bloodborne disease awareness we have today.

The second exposure I had to LLL was when my second was about 6 months old. I went with a couple of pregnant friends who had not been able to breastfeed with previous babies and really wanted to this time. I was less than impressed. It was a big b*tch-fest and very unorganized.

I never had any reason to deal with LLL after that, so I don't have any other impressions. I was grateful for the support I got when I had problems, but I was pretty put off by some of the attitudes I saw in the members at the meeting I attended.

My youngest daughter asked me about breastfeeding the other day. She of course has no memory of me nursing, though all of my older children certainly do. She asked why I did it. These were the reasons I gave:

• I'm lazy, and it's a lot easier to nurse than to deal with bottles and all that jazz.
• I liked the fact that I couldn't delegate it. I was the only one who could feed my child, so I had to have a break every couple of hours.
• Of course, as a scientist, I listed all of the health benefits of breastfeeding... natural immunity, perfectly balanced food, beneficial to mom in returning to pre-pregnancy fitness etc.

Because I had so many children, I was either pregnant or nursing for more than 10 years, and there was a cost to that. When I finally weaned my youngest, it was a pleasure to be able to eat whatever I wanted, to wear dresses that buttoned up the back, to be able to take medications for minor illnesses without guilt. But I wouldn't trade those precious moments I had with my babies for anything.
 

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Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
 
I just talked to my sister, who said that her father-in-law recently asked how long she planned to nurse her 5 month old. Before my sis could answer, he said, "Because I really hope you're going to keep nursing her. I just saw something on TV that said you really should nurse babies till they're at least 6 months old."

I like what Ela said about needing the proper help and encouragement. I nursed my son till he was 16 months old with nary a problem. I stopped breastfeeding my daughter at 6 weeks under the advice of a dr. because he said I didn't have enough milk. Oh, what I wouldn't give to go back in time! I was under a terrible amount of stress and weighed only 98 pounds (6 weeks after giving birth!) and the dr. never asked a single time about my nutrition. I truly feel that had I had proper help and encouragement that I could have continued nursing.

space opera
 

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Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
 

quote:

---

My major concern was whether the blood from my cracked nipples was a hazard to my baby, and was assured it wasn't. Of course, the advice today might be very different, as this was before AIDS and the bloodborne disease awareness we have today.

---

quote:

---

would like you to know that the vast majority of La Leche League Leaders are not like that - and I have met many over the years.

---

quote:

---

Kwea knows like 8 people who can't breastfeed. Which makes me wonder if they all really can't or if some took permission from the legitimate medical conditions of their friends.

---

quote:

---

take permission

---

quote:

---

I don't have a problem with people having a medical situation. I am just dubious when people who know that person come down with the same thing in large numbers.

---

Where did I say they all said they couldn't due to the same reasons?

I was a Medic for 3 years, and I didn't always work screening patients, but I did more than a few
shifts covering the doctors appointments. Some of the better Doctors would let me stay in the room and teach me things, providing the patients didn't mind, so I was there when the Doctor told three of them that they shouldn't nurse, and I watched them be very disappointed about it....they WANTED to, but for various reasons couldn't.

It really isn't as rare as you think, trust me. The Doctor was always in favor of nursing when possible, but he gave us many reasons why a mother might not be able to, or why nursing might not be the best choice for some.

Some I heard about myself, and others I had read it in their charts, when they came in with problems...they would tell me why they came in so that I could fill out the paperwork for the Doctor.

There may have been other women over those 3 years who I didn't know about, because they weren't comfortable talking to me about it....I don't know. They provided me with the info they wanted to provide...nothing stopped them from not mentioning it to me and then bringing it up in private with the Doctor.

What I do know is that some mothers can't or shouldn't nurse, and it happens more than you think.....even if you don't believe me. Not a majority, not even a large minority; but it happens.

Kwea

[ February 09, 2005, 02:48 AM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
 

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Posted by Amka (Member # 690) on :
 
I'm curious what reasons the doctors give that a mother can't nurse. I know about meds, and doctors tend to discourage it if one is pregnant again too.

But what other reasons are there for a medical practitioner to say that a mother shouldn't nurse?
 

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Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
 
Mainly certain medications, but there are also some infections transmitted through breastmilk, such as HIV. That is considered a contraindication to breastfeeding, unless it is the only reliable source of nutrition for the baby (such as in some developing areas where the water is heavily contaminated and there is no refrigeration available). We do know, though, that a child can be prevented from contracting the disease during childbirth and yet pick it up through breastmilk.

Hepatitis B might [emphasis on might] be another (and this is endemic in some developing countries) -- the latter is controversial, because although the baby would have likely been exposed in utero, the mother may be a chronic carrier while the baby may be able to clear the infection.

[Hepatitis B infections can be acute or chronic, and it would be a shame to reinfect the child. The child's immune system doesn't really take off on its own until after 6 months of age, and so I was trained that it cannot be relied upon to fully respond to some vaccinations. Having had the first of the Hepatitis B vaccinations is better than not, but it is not prudent (I was taught) to rely on that to cover a deliberate exposure to live virus. Just that first vaccination at birth does seem to confer up to 90% immunity to the virus, and the CDC does recommend that all women with Hepatitis B breastfeed, as they believe the benefits outweigh the risks. It is certainly something which should be discussed between an individual patient and her physician in an calm, clear, matter-of-fact way, with an accurate representation of the benefits, risks, and current recommendations.]

Active tuberculosis in the mother is another reason not to breastfeed, as is the continuing use of certain recreational substances. With active tuberculosis, the issue is one of exposure to the mother's breath and sputum, not her milk, so expressed milk can be used.

Some babies have metabolic disorders such as galactosemia, and they must be fed specific formulae, because they cannot processs the typical milk proteins. In this case, expressed milk will be harmful to the baby. These are rare metabolic disorders, but they do occur.

Breastfeeding is so important and so undersupported in the medical community. There are, however, some times when it is not safe for the baby. These are generally rare but important to identify in individual cases.

[ February 09, 2005, 07:44 AM: Message edited by: ClaudiaTherese ]
 

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Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
 
Great info, CT.

I would like to add that most medications are compatible with breastfeeding, and that many doctors do not know that. As a result, many doctors routinely tell mothers not to breastfeed when they are prescribing a medication to a mother. Sometimes a doctor has even told a mother to wean when the medication she is taking has been approved for use during breastfeeding by the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP).

If a woman is prescribed a medication and told not to breastfeed, I strongly suggest that she consult a lactation consultant or La Leche League Leader - they have up-to-date information about what meds are compatible with breatfeeding, and what the concerns while taking a med and breastfeeding. While they cannot recommend or endorse a med, they can give a mother information to take back to her doctor.

This site has some great information, including links to the AAP's Statement on medications and mother's milk and links to bookstores selling Thomas Hale's book, Medications and Mother's Milk.

Thomas Hale is an expert on breastfeeding pharmacology. He has been studying it for many years, and his book is a great resource, used by many health care prefessionals.

[ February 09, 2005, 10:46 AM: Message edited by: Ela ]
 

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Posted by Amka (Member # 690) on :
 
*firmly esconced on her soapbox*

Yesterday when getting my prenatal vitamins, I saw a supplement by Similac. I assumed they had simply gotten into the prenatl business, so I picked it up to see how complete a vitamin it was. It was a dollar more than the other vitamins. So it should be better, or at least the same thing, right? In fact, it was simply a DHA/ARA supplement. They have their fancy name for it called Lipil. Softgels kept in packets like a cold medicine, about 24 doses. So, well... maybe they have decided to make money off breastfeeding.

Except they are being a little devious, here. At the same time as they are making money, they are sending a message: "Mother's milk is not good enough without our specially designed supplement, which, BTW, can already be found in our formula."

Here is a bit of info on DHA/ARA in formula:

from http://www.kellymom.com/nutrition/milk/DHA-formula-comments.html

quote:

---

The DHA is extracted from fermented microalgae and the ARA is extracted from soil fungus. The breast does not use either of these items to manufacture its fatty acids, and these sources are new to the food chain. Each of the processed oils has its own fatty acid composition, adding a number of fatty acids to formula that already are contained in the plant oils mixed into the base formula. Human fatty acids are structurally different from manufactured ones from plant sources. Human fatty acids interact with each other in a special matrix.

---

quote:

---

3 minute activism looked interesting. There are actually quite a few advocacy groups out there.

---

That is an interesting site, Christy. I browsed around a bit, and I liked what I saw, overall.
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
I understand, and I think it is a great thing to do if you can.

I do think it has a huge impact on bonding with the baby, but it isn't the sole way of bonding. Mothers who can't breastfeed can bond just as well, IMO.

Another reason some women are advised not to breatfeed is that the baby cannot process the mothers milk, like my neice Logan. She would throw all of it up constantly, and had to go on formula in order to get any type of food at all.

Also, a lot of mothers simply don;t produce enough milk, so they have to supplement their breastfeeding with formula. This is FAR more common that not being physically able to breastfeed, or being advised not to do so due to disease or meds. It still isn't common, but it is not really that rare. Jenni has a friend who is in that boat right now, and feels horrible about it.

But the baby needs fed, one way or another.

Kwea
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
Not having enough milk can indeed be a serious problem. And, as I understand it, for some women, or in some situations, there is not much that can be done to increase the milk supply.

However. For many women, the "not enough milk" syndrome most certainly CAN be treated. Increase fluids, make sure you're getting adequate nutrition, do your absolute best to get enough rest (this is REALLY HARD for a new mom, but can be easier if dad helps a lot), and nurse (or pump) as frequently as you can for a day or two.

If it can possibly be managed, a weekend spent mostly in bed, nursing 'round the clock, can really do the trick.

Sometimes this is insufficient. And sometimes this simply is impossible to do. But supplementation tends to cause the milk supply to reduce further, resulting in a vicious cycle that ends in weaning -- far sooner than may have been planned. If that's what's best for your specific nursing dyad, great. But "not enough milk" is far too often pushed as a reason to supplement when there may well be other alternatives.

Make educated choices.
 

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Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
 
*wonders if anyone saw her post about "not enough milk" at the bottom of page 2*

I think Rivka is absolutely correct. In a lot of cases, not having enough milk can be corrected - but you have to have a dr. willing to brainstorm ideas and not give up.

space opera
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
I saw it, Opera. But since I don't know too many people who weighed less than 100 pounds! so soon after having a baby, my main reaction was .


 

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Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
 
Heh. It was, suffice it to say, not a good situation. I guess a miserable marriage is good for weight loss. Still makes me wonder why to this day when the dr. obviously had a waaaaay under-weight breastfeeding momma in his office he didn't ask about nutrition.

space opera

errr - the miserable marriage was with my ex-husband. Didn't wanna go smearin' Mr. Opera's reputation.

[ February 09, 2005, 11:05 PM: Message edited by: Space Opera ]
 

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Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
I hyperlactate, and still have to formula-supplement, just because my daughter's metabolism and activity level are so high, she just didn't get enough hindmilk. It happens to the best of us. Many mothers who can't produce enough milk give up completely, though, and I submit education could change that, too; there's a benefit to nursing even minimally, and a SNS can help with that.
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
kq, from what I've read, it's more likely that the problem actually is BECAUSE (not in spite of) hyperlactation. Your milk is adapted for hot climates, I guess -- wanna move to Arizona?



Opera, having lost a lot of weight the year I was trying to not get divorced, I can empathize. Odd how marital strife does that. Every other time I've been stressed (including this year) I've put on weight.
 

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Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
rivka, it's not the hyperlactation; she just likes to nibble. I've tried to change her habits, and that's helped some, but she'll only take so much before she wants to run off and play and look at things again. Even if she didn't, she might need a supplement; there's a family history, see.

My mom also hyperlactated, and I was the only one of her 4 who needed supplementation; I nursed for 20 mins. on each side, then when she started pumping at 2 mos. would take 12 oz. of pumped milk at a sitting, and still needed a supplement because I have a high metabolism. My dad was the same way as a baby-- the only one out of 6 who needed a supplement. And guess what? His mom also had to be supplemented. So, not really a surprise to me.
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
*nod* Although supplementation used to be more pushed by doctors than it is now. It's now more realized by the medical community that it is NORMAL for breastfed babies to be leaner than their bottle-fed peers.
 

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Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
In all cases, no doctor was consulted; it's just been passed down from generation to generation that there's at least one baby who needs to be supplemented in every generation of this family.
 

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Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
Oh, and "leaner" yes. Net weight gain over 3 mos. of 1/2 a lb., no.
 

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Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
 
Actually, KQ, there are ways to deal with the problem you describe without supplementing. A lactation consultant could help with something like that.

Oh, and I just want to mention to everyone who has discussed it: a true inabilility to produce enough milk for your baby is very rare - in most cases the problem can be solved with help from a qualified lactation counselor.

[ February 10, 2005, 12:27 AM: Message edited by: Ela ]
 

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Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
Um. I followed the advice of a lactation consultant, and she did improve a little, but still decided to supplement.
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
Jenni's friend went to one as well, but there was only a small improvment. She still needs to supplement.

Kwea
 

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Posted by Christy (Member # 4397) on :
 

quote:

---

saw it, Opera. But since I don't know too many people who weighed less than 100 pounds! so soon after having a baby, my main reaction was .

---

I was 106 before pregnancy and 110 post.

[ February 10, 2005, 05:10 PM: Message edited by: Christy ]
 

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Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
 
Mother's Milk Bank

Now that is cool.
 

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Posted by dread pirate romany (Member # 6869) on :
 

quote:

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I was 106 before pregnancy and 110 post.

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But we still love you Christy!
 

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Posted by Christy (Member # 4397) on :
 

 

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Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
Katie, did you know they're trying to form one in Dallas to serve North Texas and surrounding areas?

If I didn't get mastitis every time I tried to pump, I'd donate.
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
Christy, I didn't say "none" for good reason.

I do know a few women (including you and dpr) who would blow away in a strong breeze.
 

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Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
 
Christy, that's what I weighed when I had my son...105 when I got pregnant, 110 afterward, though it didn't take long to get back to my pre-preg weight.

And then I turned 30. And started working from home. Those two factors were worse than two pregnancies for weight gain.

I'm still trying to lose those lbs. *sigh*
 

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Posted by JenniK (Member # 3939) on :
 
ok so, my mom tried to breastfeed with both my sister and I, but could not produce enough milk either time. I seem to be of average intelligence and I think I'm pretty ok health wise.
My best friend (and Made of Honor) had a baby boy December 23rd. Ethan is beautiful! My mother had to explain to Joy that it was ok to give him formula as the Doctor told her to since she wasn't producing enough milk. Joy has plenty of support and help with Ethan. She is super aware of her nutritional needs and practically anal about doing everything she can to produce milk and remain healthy...... so what's the problem? She is extremely depressed and believes she is a "bad mother" because she is physically unable to produce enough milk for her son. She has been told by so many women that it's sooooo important to breastfeed, and that she should NOT use formula! So she thinks she's a bad mother. Nice. I am all for breastfeeding. I am totally against people making others feel that they are horrible people because they can't or don't breastfeed. Is it right for a health care "professional" or a member of LLL to tell a new mother that they "must be doing something wrong" if they aren't producing enough milk? Is it right for another mother to say much the same thing? I am ticked off because my best friend feels like there's something wrong with her, that she's not good enough...because of what other people say. I can't stand to see her hurt, especially when there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with her, and her son will be just fine...in fact he will be healthy because he is being given formula to supplement his feedings when she can't produce enough milk. She is continuing to breastfeed whenever possible, and she uses a pump when she leaves him with her mom or sister too, but if she read this thread, (and I mean no offense to anyone because of their experiences or beliefs on the subject), she would be devastated.
So, when discussing this topic, please remember that there are people who may read this and feel
horrible pain because they "can't or won't" breastfeed.
 

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Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
 
Hindmilk, which has the most "weight gaining" attributes to it, is richer, etc., - and is produced primarily at night.

I suspect primarily at night has more to do with sleeping mama's not torn between "things to do" and lengthy periods of nursing, than with the actual time of day.

Another thing to remember about milk production is that a lot of it depends not only on the mom's personal health, but also her ability to relax, and allow herself to set long enough to get through all the stages of each nursing session's milk production. So, I suspect that when mom's allow nursing on demand through the night, the production remains steady and high.

A frequent mistake pediatricians make is to recommend that mom's regulate nursing like they would bottle feeding. This negatively impacts milk production -

Production of milk has much to do with demand - demand has to do with the function of suckling.

Unfortunately, we live in a culture that makes other demands on it's parents - demands that cut in on the sort of time commitment "nursing" makes.

And it IS a commitment. Yes, latching baby on to the breast is infinitely easier than mixing formula and preparing bottles - but the nature of breastmilk means longer feeding sessions, more often.
 

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Posted by Theca (Member # 1629) on :
 
Really, someone in this thread has said that bottle fed babies won't have normal intelligence or will be unhealthy? Show me where.

And I haven't figured out why your friend would be so devastated by this thread.
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
Probably because she already thinks tha she is doing something wrong, even though she has followed the advice she received from LLL, but when she said it wasn't working they made her feel like crap about it, blaming her for failing to produce enough milk.

They eevn told her that she must not "really" be following all their directions, because if she was she would be producing more by now.



I wasn't there with her, so I don't know how much of that is her own feelings of inadequcy and how much of that was said vs implied...but she isn't going back to them, and judging by some of the other comments about them I don't think this is an isolated incident.

Too bad Ela isn't up here in MA (although her daughter is...Hi JaneX!), because I am sure that she would have been a FAR better choice than this woman was, and she would have been for more understanding.

That is the soultion...we need more Ela's!

Kwea
 

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Posted by gnixing (Member # 768) on :
 
my wife, who is a stay-at-home mom, was unable to breastfeed our first daughter, regardless of what she tried - the baby wouldn't latch on. she ended up pumping and was miserable and blamed herself for being unable to properly nurse. the LLL freaks were less than helpful.

now, our second daughter breastfeeds like a champ, growing and everything. my wife has had no problems with it, but gets nothing out of it. she actually doesn't enjoy it at all. the only reason she is breastfeeding is because i don't want to pay for formula and she will NEVER pump again.

she has been very unhappy about the attitude that many women appear to hold that a mother that doesn't breastfeed is less than a woman that does. i'm glad she hasn't had a chance to read this thread, because that's exactly the vibe that i got reading this.
 

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Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
 
You know - I haven't gotten any "vibes" that anyone is looked down upon or thought less of for whatever their choice in feeding their infant is, anywhere in this thread, at all.

I am seeing a lot of folks decide that somehow they are being treated as "less than" just because other folks won't jump on the "I hate LLL" bandwagon based on their personal experiences.

Okay - everyone!

Take a deep breath, hold it for five seconds, release, repeat. Shake out your hands. Say to yourself, with love, respect, affection:

"I make the choices that are right for me and my children in my life. These choices may or may not match up with other people's choices, and that's okay. We all walk different paths, we all have things to teach one another, and we all have things to learn from one another."

Now - let's try this again.

The AAP advises that breastmilk is optimal for the first two years of life.

Groovy.

This has the potential to have some very interesting social, economic, political, and health consequences in the United States.

Soem folks have personal experiences with breastfeeding. Some folks don't. Some folks have done a lot of research. Some folks haven't. Some folks have worked extensively with moms and babies. Some haven't.

Together, we probably know a lot about the issue. But that means we have to share our information in non-judgemental ways - on both sides - and we have to remember that just because one person experienced it one way, does not mean that all people have experienced it that way. And that's good - diversity of experience is important.

*Takes deep beath, steps off soapbox.*

Carry on.
 

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Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
 
If anything, I saw this thread as educational and all about informed choices. I haven't seen anyone jumping over anyone who doesn't or can't breastfeed, so I'm also not sure where that vibe comes from.

I'm reading this thread because I find it interesting and I'm learning a lot. I may never have to use the information myself, and even if I did, I honestly don't know how I'd feel about breastfeeding for two years. I'm not sure I could last six months, myself. But judgements? I've seen people here come to the defense of those who can't or don't.
 

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Posted by dread pirate romany (Member # 6869) on :
 
(((applauds Shan)))))
 

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Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
 

quote:

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Too bad Ela isn't up here in MA (although her daughter is...Hi JaneX!), because I am sure that she would have been a FAR better choice than this woman was, and she would have been for more understanding.

That is the soultion...we need more Ela's!

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Wow, what a nice compliment, Kwea.
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
NP, Ela, I meant it.

I don't have a problem with anything here so far, for the most part people here have been
very helpful about offering information about this subject.

I DO think that some people seem to think that just because they had no problem breatfeeding that no one will, and that if there is a problem then it MUST be the mothers fault.

I also got a vibe that some people didn't seem to think I knew what I was saying, although I hope I have cleared that up. I am not your normal guy who is afraid to discuss these types of things, adn I have a lot of hands-on experience with these type of "womans issues" compared to most guys. I know that not everyone here knew that before, so it might have been easier to assume I was either

a) exaggerating

or

b) Just plain wrong

I don;t claim to know all the stats, adn I am not against breastfeeding...when possible I think it is the best choice for the baby.

I just wanted to let people know that there were women out there who CAN'T do it, adn to remind people that it is a personal choice that is highly dependant on individual lifestyles.

Kwea
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
*also applauds Shan*

quid, should it become an issue, please be aware that while it is recommended to nurse at least a year, the majority of the benefits to both mom and baby seem to be within the first six months. And a substantial number within the first six weeks.

I know at least a couple women who decided (before the birth, although with the notion that they'd do longer if they wanted) to nurse six months, and were very happy with that decision. I know others who had to be back at work at six weeks, and felt they could not practically pump -- but nursed for the six weeks.

I think every woman who chooses, with an much information as she can get, the decision that works best for her, her baby, and her family, is a great mom. And anyone who feels they should be doing anything other than offering information and support . . . well, should realize how much they are actually acting counter to their cause.
 

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Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
rivka, they did a study on weight of mothers who breast and bottle (of formula) fed at different months. The benefits to the mother as far as weight loss statistically didn't really show up until 9 mos., and maxed out at between 12 and 15 months, depending on the woman. (Study was comparing mothers' average weight difference as compared to pre-pregnancy weight every month.) The bottle-feeding mothers actually weighed less until about 7 months, then they were even, the breast-feeding mothers then passed up the bottle-feeding mothers, on average.
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
*nod* I didn't say all, I said most. I think focusing on the fact that it's best to nurse longer discourages those who might be willing to do so for a few months.

Anyway, I never lost weight nursing. Never had any appetite while pregnant, but was always ravenous while nursing. And weight-loss is not the main benefit to nursing moms, IMO, anyway. Prolactin (which is just wonderful stuff!) release, being forced to STOP and relax every few hours, bonding with baby, and all-natural BC (for some women) were far more important to me.
 

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Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
I agree with hoping that people will nurse their baby as long as they can, if possible. (We've already discussed the people who can't so please know I have them in mind, everyone.)

I was just pointing out one of the noticeable benefits that many women do get to experience. As you pointed out, though, this is on average, not for everyone.

[ February 13, 2005, 02:18 AM: Message edited by: ketchupqueen ]
 

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Posted by Wendybird (Member # 84) on :
 

quote:

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If you let the baby go into the nursery and fall asleep, don't be suprised if baby gets fed a bottle, despite you stating that the baby will be exclusively breastfed. This can cause nipple confusion

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This is what happened to me with my first. I was young, only 20 when my first was born. I didn't know much and the hospital did not provide any lactation consultant or education beyond the 15 or so minutes in the childbirth class. I told the nursery I wanted to breastfeed and to bring my my little one but they didn't. They gave her a bottle anyway. I tried for several weeks, sobbing because she wouldn't breastfeed. I wish there had been some handout or something (I love the idea of a bag ) to give me resources. I really think she would have nursed had I known what to do.

With my son I had to make the difficult choice to not nurse. I did pump and bottle feed for the first month or so before I began formula. But he had a weak heart and was mildly tongue tied which made it hard for him to nurse. And he would get worn out by trying so hard. I didn't want to go the bottle route but it was best for him.

With my third I thoroughly enjoyed nursing! I knew enough by then to start him on the breast right after birth and it was great. Until my second had his heart transplant and my milk supply plummeted and B weaned himself because of the stress. I didn't get to nurse as long as I wanted but at least this time I had a lactation consultant at the hospital who came in and made sure I was doing okay with nursing etc. The one thing I liked about that hospital was they tried to support your choice about nursing. Now the choice to go no epidural is a different story.....
 

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Posted by whiskysunrise (Member # 6819) on :
 
I have 2 daughters. One is 2 and the other is 2 months. The 2 year old would not latch on. I pumped for 4 months. Not something I will do agian. Our 2 month old has no problem nursing, but I don't feel like we are bonding any better than I did with her sister.

I think that nursing is a personal choice. If you want to and can go for it. If you don't want to don't. No one should make you feel less than a women if you can't, or that you are a bad mother. That was the way people made me feel when I couldn't nurse my first child.
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 
Virginia Law to Exempt Breast-feeding Women from Jury Duty

quote:

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When Pamela Greene told a Fairfax County judge she was breast-feeding her 4-month-old daughter last year, she expected to be excused from jury duty.

Instead, the judge informed Greene that breast-feeding wouldn't be a problem: The court would take plenty of breaks.

What followed was a two-day ordeal in which Greene said she spent every spare moment sitting on a toilet in the jury room restroom pumping breast milk. It was hard to get access to a refrigerator to keep the milk cold, and the bathroom felt unsanitary, she said.

"The entire trial was this endless cycle of testimony, pump, testimony, pump," she said. "It was really very tough."

Inspired by Greene's experience, Del. Mark D. Sickles (D-Fairfax) this year sponsored a bill that would release breast-feeding mothers from jury service. The measure passed the Senate on Monday and has been approved by the House of Delegates. A spokeswoman for Gov. Mark R. Warner (D) said he supports the idea, which means the bill is almost certain to become law.

Virginia would be the seventh state to exempt breast-feeding mothers from jury duty. Neither Maryland nor the District provides such an automatic exemption.

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Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
 
Wow, that's really odd, Dag. I've lived in two states where mothers of young children, whether they are breastfeeding or not, can just check a box on the summons and be exempted from jury duty. (I forget what the age limit is, but it definitely applies to mothers of children too young to be in school.)

What's wrong with Virginia?
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
Me too! In CA, primary caretakers of children younger than school age (mother or father) get exempted automatically.

I think it says something about a state's priorities if that ISN'T the case.
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
I disagree....why should a mother get out of jury duty because she is breastfeeding? I know it is not easy, but it is her choice to do so. Also, how does the court system go about checking on that? I am sure that a lot of people use it just to get out of jury duty even though they may not be breastfeeding, but it isn't something that the courts can look into without offending people.

Perhaps there should be only certain types of trials they could be on, ones that don't run as long or something. That way they are still doing their civic duty while meeting the needs of the child.

Kwea

[ February 15, 2005, 10:25 AM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
 

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Posted by Amka (Member # 690) on :
 
Getting out of jury duty is not one of the listed advantages of breastfeeding, Kwea. But it isn't just about breastfeeding. Even SAHM who formula feed have chosen a lifestyle that puts their children first.

This isn't like work where one is dispensible. Some people feel it is, but most who have chosen to stay at home feel strongly that no one but themselves can possible give the same kind of care and attention to their child. Many of them do it at great sacrifice to themselves. The feelings and common sense behind such a choice runs as deep, and has more proof of benefit for someone other than self, as something like a religous exemption from the draft.
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 
Interestingly, automatic waivers for young child care have given rise to accusations of gender bias in jury selection. It hasn't been ruled unconstitutional, but the practice has been criticized in some circles.
 

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Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
 
I'd be interested to know how many states actually do exempt the primary caretaking parent of a young child.
 

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Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
I don't think the "gender bias" thing would hold up if they exempt men who are primary caretakers as well as women. I mean, the alternative is to not exempt them, right? Even if I wasn't breastfeeding, that would pose an economic hardship problem in my family.
 

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Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
 

quote:

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I disagree....why should a mother get out of jury duty because she is breastfeeding? I know it is not easy, but it is her choice to do so.

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quote:

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I don't think the "gender bias" thing would hold up if they exempt men who are primary caretakers as well as women. I mean, the alternative is to not exempt them, right? Even if I wasn't breastfeeding, that would pose an economic hardship problem in my family.

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It's a question of disparate impact - facially neutral policies that affect more women than men. I'm not a fan of disparate impact arguments in general, but there's pretty clear evidence that this exemption affects more women than men.

Dagonee
 

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Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
Yes, but how many more men than women get off becuase they're the sole support of their family and their employer doesn't provide jury pay? [/wondering]
 

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Posted by Amka (Member # 690) on :
 
I've been thinking a lot about the difficulty, other than proven medical cause, in breastfeeding that many have talked about. I think so much of it has to do with our lifestyle and culture.

In so many ways we've moved away from natural support systems. We no longer live in situations where the elder, experienced women supported the young mothers. Our lives have a very different focus. There is a very big gap between our activities and life sustenance activities - much bigger than at any other time in history.

Because of the high population, and that we do not perceive a risk of dying out, babies and children are no longer as important to society as they used to be. They are a luxury (even if socially expected), to wait for until other things in life are accomplished. They are an obstacle (even if well loved) to every other role that we require of ourselves as strong, independent women.

The result of this is that there is a great deal that we buy for baby that is not for her benefit but for our convenience. If we have a baby monitor, we can leave baby in a room so far away we don't have to worry about not hearing her cry. There are swings and vibrating seats, walkers, and play yards. These are all designed to put baby aside while mother does something else.

We are proud of the fact that we can get up and go so soon after giving birth. The idea of staying in for so long after labor seems medically unnecessary. But I suspect that much of the reason there was so much recovery time after birth in those days was as much to support being able to feed the baby as to physically recover from childbirth.

Practices of confinement while still bleeding would have helped the mother to rest while she established a good milk supply. Extensive help from other women, family members or neighbors, during this time was expected. This is no longer the case. Mothers or MILs may come to help for a week or two. If there is really, really good support in the community, the family might expect to have dinners prepared for them by neighbors. But after a couple of weeks, the family is left to fend for itself. Father has probably already been back at work for a week, and both parents are suffering from sleep deprivation. Under such stressful circumstances, nutritional quality of meals is likely to go down as the parents turn to convenience foods and restaurants.

On top of this, add the cultural misconceptions about breastfeeding, disinformation from formula companies and poorly educated medical personnel, the lack of trust we have in our natural body, and the erosion of confidence (from listening to the many failure stories of other mothers who tried and failed to breastfeed). It does make nursing considerably more difficult in our age than it ever used to be.

I think there are several solutions to this problem. A more extended maternity leave for fathers could help. Lactation consultants should not focus primarily on the mother, but on the environment she is in. All stress needs to be taken away from the mother, and it should be emphasized to her that she is not being lazy if all she does for those first weeks is care for herself and baby and keep him close. If family or friends cannot step in, it might be wise to hire a mother helper.

Doctors and nurses can't ensure this kind of thing, so the quick fix is to simply tell the mother she should give the baby formula so baby measures up to standard. What if, instead, the doctor put a cast on mother's foot and said that she wasn't allowed to walk around and do anything but take care of herself and baby?
 

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Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
Not arguing with you, but if I had been confined until I stopped bleeding, I would have been confined for 3 1/2 months. Just saying.
 

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Posted by gnixing (Member # 768) on :
 

quote:

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I would have been confined for 3 1/2 months.

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quote:

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Virginia provides jury duty exemptions for -- among others -- those over age 70, mariners taking part in maritime service and those who are "necessarily and personally responsible" for a child under age 16 or a disabled person during court hours. The existence of these provisions led several lawmakers to vote against the new measure as unnecessary.

"The courts can do this already," said Sen. Kenneth W. Stolle (R-Virginia Beach), one of four senators who opposed the bill. "The more people you exempt, the harder you find it becomes to get a jury panel."

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quote:

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But not only that, we are far more aware of our nutritional needs. Bleeding for that long may have taken quite a bit more out of you 100 years ago than it does today, when your doctor probably recommended iron supplements to counteract the loss you were experiencing.

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Nope. He just told me not to have sex until it stopped.

I am lucky enough, however, to be able to be a sahm, with a husband who doesn't mind picking up my slack on the housework. So if I needed to sleep, I slept.
 

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Posted by dread pirate romany (Member # 6869) on :
 
Just my personal experience, I was excused from jury duty three times in a row by simply writing "breastfeeding" on my form and mailing it back. When I was called the 4th time, my toddler was nursing still ,but not often, and hubby had some vacation time so he ttok the time off, I went and served a week. Since we could afford it, using the vacation time to do dad duty while I did civic duty made sense (and, the toddler didn't wean, though he was old enough I would be fine either way).
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
Is Your State's Jury Duty Family Friendly?
 

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Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
Not to bring up a dead topic, but I thought this was funny-- Ems got a new baby doll sent to her that has a pacifier, a bottle, a change of clothes, etc. She decided to feed her baby, and so she started by giving her the bottle, but decided that the baby doesn't like the bottle, apparently, and brought the baby to me, stuck her against my breast, and said, "Na-na!" *giggles* I asked, "Doesn't the baby have a bottle?" She said, "Baby cwy. Bottle eeew-ie." I said, "Oh. Well, you're the baby's mama. Shouldn't she have na-nas with you?" Emma pulled up her shirt, looked at her chest, looked back at me and said, "Na-na widdle." ("Na-nas little.") I guess she gets it!
 

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Posted by Boon (Member # 4646) on :
 
That's funny. Dan used to "breastfeed" one of my old dolls while I fed Jen. I think he's forgotten, though.
 

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Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
Emma used to feed her dolls when they were hungry or when they got "hurt". But I guess she's differentiating between people who breastfeed babies (me) and people who don't (everyone else in this family, right now anyway!) I suppose I should be impressed. I'm just hoping she doesn't shove her doll onto me in public now!
 

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