Give him some time to adjust to the culture of the board. Don't just run him off becuase he's a rather loud mouthed conservative.
There are plenty of loud mouthed liberals here to balance him.
Pix
(edit: Jay, please DO learn the culture of the board.)
[ February 03, 2005, 01:05 PM: Message edited by: The Pixiest ]
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
I don't have a problem with him being a loudmouthed conservative.
But he's got a serious martyr complex. That annoys me.
Posted by TheHumanTarget (Member # 7129) on :
It's the smugness that puts me off...
Posted by IdemosthenesI (Member # 862) on :
We don't hate you Jay! We just disagree. A lot. But that's okay!
And for all of you who are not Jay...
quote:IF YOU WERE JAY THAT'D BE OKAY. I MEAN 'CAUSE, HEY, I'D LIKE YOU ANYWAY. BECAUSE YOU SEE, IF IT WERE ME, I WOULD FEEL FREE TO SAY THAT I WAS JAY...
YOU CAN COUNT ON ME TO ALWAYS BE BESIDE YOU EVERY DAY, TO TELL YOU IT'S OKAY, YOU WERE JUST BORN THAT WAY, AND, AS THEY SAY, IT'S IN YOUR DNA, YOU'RE JAY!
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I am quite conservative myself, but for some reason obnoxious conservatives bug me more than obnoxious liberals.
Maybe a part of me says "well, what do you expect" when somebody who disagrees with me is obnoxious. But when somebody is obnoxious in agreement with me, I have no such recourse.
Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
He's has been around for over a year. His tone was actually understandable before the election be he continues to act persecuted.
[ February 03, 2005, 01:10 PM: Message edited by: mothertree ]
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
Interesting
Posted by TheHumanTarget (Member # 7129) on :
I have a problem with anyone who attaches a label to themselves, and then dogmatically defends it. The world is not black and white, and those who try to force everything to fit into the view that it is miss the nuanced shades of gray that most of us live in.
Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
Darned humans think they know everything Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
Jay isn't getting hassled for being loudmouthed, or conservative. He's getting hassled for being rude. The martyr complex is just a bonus.
And I think it would be one thing if he were really trying to learn the culture of the board. He's not, though; every time someone criticizes him, he assumes it's because he's conservative (i.e., "in the right") and we're a bunch of liberals (i.e., "out in left field"). He puts on a big show about how people like Belle and Dagonee aren't "TRUE Republicans" and how everyone hates him and is against him, but isn't that just too bad, because he's so, so RIGHT! He is not trying to come to grips with the fact that this is, by and large, a very friendly, very (politically and culturally) diverse community. Once he does that, and tempers the grandstanding, I'm sure he'll fit in fine.
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
That wouldn’t be like people who hate anything Bush says no matter what he says?
Posted by gnixing (Member # 768) on :
as said by mt:
quote: He's has been around for over a year.
he's had plenty of time to adjust. and as mack said, it's the martyr complex that's the problem. that, and the TomD bashing which is, though oddly amusing, out of place and unwarranted.
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
Tom started that! He attacked me first!
Besides, I like Tom!
[ February 03, 2005, 02:39 PM: Message edited by: Jay ]
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
I wonder if it's just that more people on Hatrack are constitutionally incapable of ignoring Jay's type of annoying than are capable of ignoring other people's type of annoying.
I appear to be physically incapable of staying out of abortion threads. I have managed to build up a resistance to homosexuality threads though it still gives me the shakes. And Goodbye Cruel Hatrack threads tempt me not at all.
Jay, so far, hasn't bothered me in the slightest, largely because he hasn't attempted to integrate. He'd be a much more annoying if he were fun most of the time with occasional outbursts of obnoxiously rabid conservatism.
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
Jay, I'm not sure if you were replying to me or not. I'll reply to what you said, though. Understand that people's objections to you have NOTHING to do with your political beliefs and EVERYTHING to do with the way you behave. The sooner you understand that we don't really care how you feel about the president, but instead how you treat other board members, the more likely it will be that you will quit being "hassled" and instead be listened to and responded to with the same respect that you give to others.
Again, this has nothing at all to do with your views on the president, or even more generalized political views. Treat others with respect here, and they will treat you with respect in return.
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
quote:Goodbye Cruel Hatrack threads
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
IdemosthenesI:
I wonder if Jay has a girlfriend in Canada...?
Posted by Ryuko (Member # 5125) on :
To me, he's just like that itch that you can't quite reach it to scratch. But every so often you still try, manically.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
For the record, Jay did not ask for people to stop hassling him, I did.
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
Come to think of it I like Jay.
I like the first letter, besides, that's one of my 23958623948632 nicknames.
He's cooler than so many others.
Way to go, Jay! And have poise! Don't surrender like I did.
[ February 03, 2005, 03:33 PM: Message edited by: Jonathan Howard ]
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
Yes, calling someone a liberal is sooooooo mean. Cheering for the State of the Union is so obnoxious. Guess I’m just not seeing it. Oh well. Guess this is sort of like the time the one guy said I couldn’t think (instead of talking about the point of the discussion) and I came back with the degree thing and got bombarded with attacks on how insensitive I was. I laughed at the absurdity there. Or maybe like the time we has to get into the tedious discussion about “the most” or “the single most” for pages never ending. Oh well. Guess I’ll try and call people liberal more nicely!
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
Pixiest, I know. My first post in here was addressed generally. My second post was in response to one of Jay's posts. I'm actually thinking he enjoys the hassling, because it lets him play up the persecution complex.
Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
By and large I do succeed in ignoring people who seem unaware that they aren't on Ornery. But I foolishly stepped in the "Who deleted" cowpie. Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
at IDemosthenesI - I love that soundtrack.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
Yes, calling someone a liberal is sooooooo mean. Cheering for the State of the Union is so obnoxious.
Not at all. That's not the point, and never has been. What's annoying is the constant attitude that "liberal" equates to "pond scum," that everyone that disagrees with a single point Bush has ever made - even the contradictory ones - is therefore a liberal by definition, which means that anything anyone says in opposition can be utterly discounted because, after all, they're liberals. That and the feeling I get whenever I read your political posts that you're clicking on "Add Reply" while screaming "in your face, liberals!"
I don't mind different, even opposing views on anything. But scorn turns me right off.
[ February 03, 2005, 03:19 PM: Message edited by: Chris Bridges ]
Posted by Judas (Member # 7355) on :
Jeebus guys.. it's not like Jay has weapons of mass destruction or anything..
... but we can't know that for sure, unless...
*attacks Jay*
Judas
[ February 03, 2005, 03:26 PM: Message edited by: Judas ]
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
I think we should lay off him, at least the attacks on his style.
[ February 03, 2005, 03:37 PM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]
Posted by Ryuko (Member # 5125) on :
Demosthenes: Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I'm not going to "lay off" if by lay off you mean stop politely pointing out when he's being rude. It's the same kind of obliviously rude condescension we're trying to train out of my brother, and it pushes every one of my buttons. If we ignore him, I don't think it's going to get better. He needs to know when what he says is out of line and why so he can learn not to do it.
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
"If ya kill him, he won't learn nuthin'!" Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
Wow, I'm so sad that I can't quote Pee Wee's Big Adventure anymore.
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
ketchupqueen,
Maybe you are right. I guess I've just lumped Jay into the dude "catagory" and lowered my standards, kind of like all of the fat guy attractive wife sit-coms.
I still think that there is something wrong when I open one of his threads and find five people talking about what he said and 30 people talking about how he said it.
[ February 03, 2005, 03:45 PM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
I've never said anything about pond scum. You must have been reading into my thoughts on liberals.
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
OK, JJ.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Irami, when he learns to say it in a more socially acceptable way, maybe more people will talk about what he says.
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
I don't know if it is that simple, or if it should be. All manners of evil are socially acceptable.
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
I'm also having trouble seeing him as a poster who's good for the community when he pretty clearly thinks most of the people on the board don't deserve to be spoken to respectfully. I'll cut him some slack when he starts behaving like a polite adult.
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
I know you are have trouble, but how much of that trouble is you and how much of that is him?
______
Edit:
This is a deeper debate that tackles terrific and relevant questions about pride and responsibility.
[ February 03, 2005, 04:01 PM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
Irami, do you believe that his responses are polite and respectful? It's pretty clear that many people do not, so I'm not alone in thinking this. That would seem to indicate that the trouble is not with me alone.
Yes, it's an interesting question; as a community, what sort of behavior do we demand of our members, and how much deviation from that expected behavior can we take before the community offers an increasingly harsh series of penalties (from saying, "hey, cut that out!" to reporting posts, etc.)?
I'm reminded of Deet's community theories in OSC's story "The Originist."
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
quote:Irami, do you believe that his responses are polite and respectful?
No. My opinion of him is neither respectful nor polite, though I wonder if the word polite has the sense of what I think it does, but that's another discussion.
It's just a queer sort of entitlement that leads people to believe that they shouldn't listen to people who don't treat them well. There is something juvenile about [both] sides.
[ February 03, 2005, 04:20 PM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]
Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
*loves demosthenes*
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
Entitlement, eh? I think that society as a whole, and this community as a microcosm of that, should demand that its members behave well. Also, I do feel justified in disregarding the points of someone who makes points using rhetoric that is clearly intended to be offensive. You know the phrase "Form follows function"? To my mind, if his points had substance, he wouldn't need the form of obnoxious rhetoric. I read what he posts, and I have yet to see anything substantial, other than a general love for the current administration.
I'm not sure where entitlement comes into it, and it certainly has nothing to do with "sides," as you put it. I'm just not going to listen to someone whose primary rhetoric consists of:
YA YA YA! I'm right, and you're WRONG! and STUPID to boot! and I'm the only one that's right, ever! and if you disagree with me, you're WRONG! STUPID <insert hated group>! You just wish you were as right as me!
Posted by Eduardo_Sauron (Member # 5827) on :
Sorry to interrupt: I find Jay very annoying. So, I just ignore him and never answer to any post of his. Why don't everybody who feel the same do that until he shows hes capable of normal human interation?
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
Because sometimes he is the only one posting, and it is better than having no conversation at all....
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
Megan,
I forgot the word "both" before sides when I typed. I do that often.
The problem is that, it's been my experience:
"YA YA YA! I'm right, and you're WRONG! and STUPID to boot! and I'm the only one that's right, ever! e=mc2 and if you disagree with me, you're WRONG! STUPID <insert hated group>! You just wish you were as right as me!"
If one ignores it, one runs the risk of missing the fact that mass and energy can be equated.
I work with kids who aren't respected or spoken politely to, and I've been a kid who wasn't respected or spoken politely to, and if I had the attitude exhibited by those who were hard on Jay, I very well could be in jail.
Here is an example where that attitude constitutes entitlement.
[ February 03, 2005, 04:33 PM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Farmgirl, that's silly. Just start one of those threads where you talk to yourself.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
You mean like this?
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Yes.
Posted by Eduardo_Sauron (Member # 5827) on :
Farmgirl, I think he's just shopping for attention, and here he found the perfect crowd for his antics. Did you notice how much attention he's been getting, just because of his vehemence? His lines are always the same! He goes on and on and on. Quite boring, to tell you the truth. Like other trolls, stop feeding him and he'll go away or change his ways.
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
So, to clarify, you're saying we should look for the pearls of wisdom that pop up in Jay's strings of cheerings and jeerings?
And, as for the last bit, are you saying that if you had demanded respect, you'd be in jail?
I simply think that in this situation, where it is possible and even good and necessary for people to be respectful to each other, the community as a whole should demand that its members be respectful to each other. That's what people are doing when they are "hard on Jay."
And, as I said earlier, I'm to the point where I think he's actually enjoying the attention and the chance to act put upon. I generally do not respond to him at all in threads when he's being rude, although I have interacted with him in fluff threads (and do so even as we speak). However, I did feel the need to respond to the idea that Jay was being persecuted, because I do not feel that is the case (at least, any more than any member of a community is persecuted when that member does not follow the standards of behavior demanded by that community).
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
quote: To me, he's just like that itch that you can't quite reach it to scratch. But every so often you still try, manically.
See, Ryuko, to me, that's Tres.
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
quote:So, to clarify, you're saying we should look for the pearls of wisdom that pop up in Jay's strings of cheerings and jeerings?
And, as for the last bit, are you saying that if you had demanded respect, you'd be in jail?
Yes and yes.
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
What on earth did I do that was so bad?
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
I think we're just bored, Jay. The election is over, life goes on..... and you are something to talk about...
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
No, FG, that's not it. Well, maybe that's it with you, but not with me.
[ February 03, 2005, 04:45 PM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]
Posted by Eduardo_Sauron (Member # 5827) on :
That's my whole point... Posted by Judas (Member # 7355) on :
Elizabeth
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
Jay, go back and read your posts on the first page of the State of the Union thread. Stuff like this alienates people:
quote:You must be a John McCain Republican then. Every TRUE Republican I know is soooo excited about this speech and the whole Presidency and defends Bush at every opportunity.
...and the fact that at every opportunity you belittle what you perceive to be the opinions of other board members. Seriously, it's possible to disagree, even vigorously, without scorning and belittling those you're disagreeing with.
It isn't your beliefs; it's your tone. There are plenty of people who disagree with each other here and do so in a careful, well-thought-out manner. That's the way this particular community works. As I said up-thread, try to speak in a tone that shows respect for all members of the community, and you'll fit in just fine!
I don't have anything personal against you. I enjoy your presence in the fluff threads, and I even like the little daily food thing, as long as it's kept to one thread (no reason to have multiple threads that serve the same purpose, imho!).
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
Irami, I'm going out on a limb here, but I'm guessing that the situation in which you might have gone to jail is drastically different from the current one.
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
Nah, it's similar in the relevant way and has nothing to do with the Internet and everything to do with being young and black.
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
I really don’t get how that is so insulting. I think I’ve heard a zillion times how Zell Miller isn’t a true Democrat. So how is saying that one of the liberal Republicans isn’t a true Republican any different? Besides, she called herself a conservative. She never said she was a Republican. You’re assuming she’s a Republican by lumping her into that. I half expected her to respond and say, “No, I’m an independent and John McCain isn’t so bad” Then we could have chatted about McCain for a while. Which would have been fun. I like him ok. The way you all are talking I’m so nasty going around name calling and making it seem like liberals should be hunted down. Sheeze….. All I’m saying is what has really got ya all to think I’m that bad?
Posted by Judas (Member # 7355) on :
::considers behaving rude from now on so he can get a couple of threads dedicated to himself::
Judas
(no, not really)
Edit: I don't think you're all that rude, Jay.
[ February 03, 2005, 05:08 PM: Message edited by: Judas ]
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
Irami, I'll take your word for it, unless you'd like to expound further. Since I do not know the situation, I'm really not sure how a comparison could be made.
Jay, again, I'm talking about your general tone. Do you really think that the way that you say things is respectful to other people's opinions?
For example, calling other board members "hate mongers":
quote:I did a mass delete when the last food thread got hate mongers attacking.
Or, how about this:
quote: But discussing at times here has been rough because of the bias shown towards me. I rather be slammed on a point then the typical non discussion that seems to happen. Oh well. Guess I’m off topic here. I think I hear the thread police coming.
Do you think this sounds respectful? Is this how you would talk to any one of us, if you met us on the street? Or in a friend's living room, as the analogy is so often made?
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
Well, they were. It was just on and on. I didn’t see the big deal on why you’d want to bump an old thread instead of starting a new one. And it was all being negative towards me which seemed to be caused from the political debates. Sort of like how that no matter what Bush says he gets slammed by his detractors. I was feeling that too. I’m still not seeing it. I really don’t feel like I’ve been a mean terrible person like is being said.
Posted by Eduardo_Sauron (Member # 5827) on :
quote: Jay: And it was all being negative towards me which seemed to be caused from the political debates. Sort of like how that no matter what Bush says he gets slammed by his detractors. I was feeling that too.
quote: mackillian: he's got a serious martyr complex.
Mackillian seems to have a point.
Posted by Brian J. Hill (Member # 5346) on :
FWIW, I like Jay. Having him around is what I imagine it would be like if Sean Hannity was an active member of our community.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
*Groan* Sean Hannity >.<
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
Again, it's not that you're being particularly mean, or terrible. You're just not being particularly respectful to your fellow posters. Most of them will just respond by ignoring you, until you tick them off so much they feel the need to address what you're doing.
About Bush, though...My friend, that happens with EVERY politician. Every last one has detractors that never say anything good about him. The fact is that many people here have serious, well-founded, thoroughly thought-out reservations about our current president. Every time you jeer at them for expressing reservations, you're implying that they have not, in fact, thought out their positions.
People have their reservations about you too, because of the way you've behaved. If you intend to remain here peacefully, eventually you will have to adjust to the culture of the board. We treat each other with respect here.
And, on that note, I really must go. I hope you seriously consider some of the things said, and I hope you stick around. See you later!
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
Ok, that's weird. Hatrack ate my post!
Edit: heehee...never mind.
[ February 03, 2005, 05:32 PM: Message edited by: Megan ]
Posted by Eduardo_Sauron (Member # 5827) on :
Megan: Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Jay, maybe you should just refrain from talking about other posters for a few days. Take a break and watch what others do. Reply to others' posts, but only talk about what they said, not about them. See if you can do it for two days, and after the two days, see if people are happier with you. While you're doing this, watch how others who are respected on this forum talk to each other. See if you can pick up what they're doing that's different from what you're doing. I'd really like to be able to read your posts without feeling like someone's under attack. It's okay to attack a position, but not a person. Just like in Speech and Debate. Were you ever in Speech and Debate? The rule is that no personal attacks are allowed, and you should back your position on the subject being debated up with as much fact as possible.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:So how is saying that one of the liberal Republicans isn’t a true Republican any different?
McCain is hardly liberal. He's not even really moderate.
Dagonee
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Jay: the problem as I see it is that you have felt free to announce on behalf of other people what they think, why they think it, and even with which political party they should identify.
And then when they tell you that your description of their own feelings is inaccurate, you insist that, no, you know them better than they know themselves.
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
I’m still glowing over the comparison to Sean Hannity. He’s one of my heroes. If pointing out liberalism is telling people what they think I guess I’m guilty. Is this how you fell about Rush and Sean?
Posted by Anna (Member # 2582) on :
It's funny. This morning I used the "searching" form and it gave me the thread about OSC-fan, remember ? It wasn't what I was searching for, but I read it (I was very bored). And just now there is this thread about Jay. I believe the offense is less hard though, and that Jay could become someone valuable for this board, would he mind to care a little more about the persons he's talking with, which I didn't think about OSC-fan. Or maybe I'm in a better mood.
[ February 04, 2005, 10:43 AM: Message edited by: Anna ]
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
So far, from my casual reading of the board these past few months, I'd say Jay is a packed head inside a thick skull.
I guess he reminds me of Leto, in a way - a lot of things to say, just difficulty expressing them in a civilized and mature way.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I gotta say, I don't see much in common between Jay and Leto.
![[Dont Know]](graemlins/dontknow.gif)
![[Wave]](graemlins/wave.gif)
We just disagree. A lot. But that's okay!![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)
![[Kiss]](graemlins/kiss.gif)
![[Blushing]](graemlins/blushing.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Laugh]](graemlins/laugh.gif)
Elizabeth
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Hail]](graemlins/hail.gif)