So, exactly what place does/ should Spelling and Grammar hold on a BB. Do you think we (Hatrack) take it too seriously or not seriously enough.
(Please don't go through my posts, I'm sure you'll find all sorts of Grammar mistakes.)
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I tink tate in ganaral we r coull wit it.
Posted by scottneb (Member # 676) on :
I guess you could spin-off and say "what's the point in teaching our kids to spell if they unlearn it in Middle School/ Jr. High as soon as they start learning word processing programs?"
Also, do you think we've been helped/hindered by calculators? How many mathmatical geniuses have been brought down by the ease of pressing buttons and getting a quick answer?
[ February 01, 2005, 01:30 AM: Message edited by: scottneb ]
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
Let it get below a certain level of correctness, and it's hard to take the poster seriously. Put it all into one paragraph with no punctuation and jr. high level mistakes all over the place, and it become unreadable.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Seriously this time, I think it matters...to a point. As long as it shows a basic understanding of the rules of grammar, I am fine with it.
I am just learning to type properly, and sometimes my thoughts are way ahead of my fingers. Also, there are some types of typos that occur often, where you type adn instead of and, switching the order of the letters within the word. I don't have a problem with that, and I don't think that most people here do either.
However, it also depends on what type of thread you are posting in. If it is a serious topic, people should be able to read it fairly easily so that they are spending time thinking about your points rather than your grammar usage. The whole point of the rules are to standardize the process of writing, and that only works if everyone follows the same set of rules.
To me using the proper grammar is more about respect for the reader than anything else. If I want to communicate with someone, I want it to be easy for them to understand what I am saying. If they are taking the time to read what I have written, then I should take the time to at least try and spell most (or all) things correctly, and to use paragraphs that make the thoughts easier to comprehend.
Anything else is rude.
If I am joking, or in a fluff thread, then I don't really care...I am typing as fast as I can, just to get a punchline in first, or to chat away with someone before they leave.
Make sense?
Kwea
[ February 01, 2005, 01:57 AM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
Posted by Catseye1979 (Member # 5560) on :
I remember in Elementry and Middle school spelling was the only thing keeping me from strait A's. In fact looking back I realize now that my 5th grade teacher dumbed down the spelling tests just so I could get strait A's the last quarter of school. That was the most wonderful A- of my life (the only A I ever felt I actully had to put forth effort to earn), and the last one anywhere that spelling counted toward grades.
Now if English made sense like Spanish.....
Posted by scottneb (Member # 676) on :
I don't want you to think I was attacking you Catseye. You're posts just made me curious mostly and raised some questions in my head.
So, if I came accross as harsh or demeaning, I sincerely appologize.
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
quote: I guess you could spin-off and say "what's the point in teaching our kids to spell if they unlearn it in Middle School/ Jr. High as soon as they start learning word processing programs?"
Even at age 5, when my father let me write letters to relatives in Australia, I always put a capital at the beginning of a sentence and a full stop at the end. I knew that when you take a breath you put a comma, brackets add stuff and names are capitalised.
Sure, I wasn't a pro, but I always knew that if I don't do what I should, I just look stupid.
That, by the way, is why I am the only person I know who writes with capitalisation and punctuation while using IM (since I spoke to 0% of you on IM, that makes sense).
butt i meen how can u rite like dis adn ppl can understand u if ur doin it so stupid
Translation: But - I mean - how can you write like that previous statement in such a way that one would be able to understand? After all, it makes you look stupid.
It's not a matter of dignity, or ease-of-read; Junior High students, except for few exceptions, can write as well as a 7 year old, just with 12 y.o. slang.
Thank goodness I can write; and I speak as onw who spnds half his day with 14-15 year olds. Tha same happens in Hebrew, by the way (except no capital letters exist, and people don't use abbreviations such as "ppl", "u", "ur" and "y").
quote: Also, do you think we've been helped/hindered by calculators? How many mathmatical geniuses have been brought down by the ease of pressing buttons and getting a quick answer?
Yes. Had I not been taught arithmatic at age 4 (I mean, addition, subtraction, multiplication and division of several numbers) and fractions at age 6, as well as simple algebra when I was 10, I'd never be able to get very far calculating stuff in my head.
Just an example that happend an hour ago at school: I am in the advanced group, called "Taglit", and 4 or 5 of us gather around and do the most complex stuff in maths, we call ourselfs the "Taglit SheBaTaglit" (Taglit of the Taglit). I am not in their league of algebra, but I can calculate the square root of 576 in no time. I know the powers of two up until 16777216, and any calculations of numbers between them I can calculate in no time.
For instance, I know by heart that 512 + 256 = 768, I know that 128 - 32 = 96. That's even without a calculation. I went over this stuff due to RAM sizes over the past 8 years...
But still, I can subtract a 3-digit-number from another more quickly than my friend can use his Casio-watch's calculator (depending on the numbers).
Yes, they both sadden us, but those are facts. And I am happy I can write like an adult without any personal strain of putting a full stop at the end of a sentence. It comes naturally. The same with maths.
JH
[ February 01, 2005, 06:23 AM: Message edited by: Jonathan Howard ]
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:In fact looking back I realize now that my 5th grade teacher dumbed down the spelling tests just so I could get strait A's
Off-hand, I'd say that he or she did you no favors. Posted by Nato (Member # 1448) on :
quote:I don't want you to think I was attacking you Catseye. You're posts just made me curious mostly and raised some questions in my head.
I know you said not to go through your posts....
I think we can handle it, although I admit, I respect posters much less, when they shows no care for making their posts readable. You probably won't find me responding to a thread that starts out with a load of gibberish. On the whole, I think Jatraqueros do very well at caring about readability, and it is one of the things that keeps me coming back to the site, even at 4:45 in the morning.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: I think we can handle it, although I admit, I respect posters much less, when they shows no care for making their posts readable...
[ February 01, 2005, 07:53 AM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
quote: I think we can handle it; although I admit <here drop the comma, and use either a colon or "that".> I respect posters much less when they show <no "s".> no care for making their posts readable...
I hope I made TomTom's post make more sense.
BTW, Tom, I'll run through your posts and find eccentricities. OK? (j/k! j/k!)
JH
[ February 01, 2005, 09:00 AM: Message edited by: Jonathan Howard ]
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
quote:
trough ?
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
'Twas a typo, Kwea. It has now been corrected. Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
I do find it funny that people would rather dwell on a grammatical issue instead of the point of statement.
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
Is it really humorous, Jay?
[ February 01, 2005, 09:18 AM: Message edited by: Jonathan Howard ]
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Because poor grammar can obscure or confuse the point.
I could just as easily say that I find it funny that people attempting to make a point don't use correct grammar.
Dagonee
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
I find it interesting some people may not care enough about their point to make a good faith effort to use decent grammar/spelling when communicating it, that it may be more easily understood.
*Hurriedly checks this message for typos and dangling participles...*
-Bok
PS- Dang you all! Well, really just JH, since I am a Daghead threw and thru!
[ February 01, 2005, 09:20 AM: Message edited by: Bokonon ]
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
aka "the most" and "the single most" for example.
I’m not about to say that blatant bad grammar doesn’t ruin a good argument. But some things get silly when the true intent is obvious.
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
The thing is, many times in my life I've said something thta I thought was crystal clear, and found that others couldn't necessarily follow. Remember, comprehension rests with the receiver.
-Bok
Posted by Nato (Member # 1448) on :
quote:I think we can handle it, although I admit, I respect posters much less, when they shows no care for making their posts readable...
Ironically, that error came from the third or fourth revision of the sentence to make it more readable. I changed from a singular subject to a plural one to avoid a, "he or she shows no care for making his or her posts" situation.
Consider me humbled. Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
I'm often guilty of correcting people. But I don't usually go after split infinitives or dangling participles. If there is a dangling participle, I usually go with a clarifying question rather than excoriating someone for the grammatical flaw.
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
Grammar got run over by a reindeer, and deservedly so. Any examination of "standard grammar" texts such as the Chicago Manual of Style clearly proves that their "rules" are made up by the none-too-bright. Just cuz some folks ain't got no appreciation for the power of the English language, don' mean that their disability should be the basis for its usage.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I'm looking forward to the time when nobody has nothing against double negatives.
If I were King, that day would be hastened.
I have found that most people that like to point out that two negatives make a positive are people that have never learned another language.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Hm. I point that out, myself, and I speak French fairly fluently.
I admit to finding the use of double negatives so annoying that I almost always assume the speaker is excessively ignorant.
It baffles me, Porter, that you'd use a double negative and yet manage to nail the subjunctive tense.
[ February 01, 2005, 12:59 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
Yeah, that should be "...when nobody ain't got nothin' against..."
As Dubya has proven time and time again, the better to eat you with, TomDavidson.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I don't use double negatives out of ignorance. I use them (and that only occasionally) because either a) I feel like breaking the rules or b) I think it's a stupid rule (which it is).
It is kind of you to notice the subjunctive, though. Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Proper use of double negatives, and knowing the difference between them and a mere positive, is critical in understanding legal writing.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Could you give me an example, as non-legalese as possible?
Is it anything like the difference between "I don't dislike him" and "I like him"?
Posted by dread pirate romany (Member # 6869) on :
My written spelling and grammar are fine, but my typing sub-standard. Add to that the fact that my attention is usually divided, and it gets worse. But, I try my best.
Calculators...I don't let my son use one, even when his book calls for it. I think they tend to hurt more than help.
Posted by IdemosthenesI (Member # 862) on :
When I was working at my store the other week, a woman came in with her two children. While waiting for her credit card to authorize, I turned to the kids and asked if they were ready for school to start the next day, as it was the end of winter break. Then came this exchange:
Woman: "We were supposed to start today, but we had orthodontist appointments. I homeschool them."
Me: "Really! I was homeschooled for a couple of years."
Woman: "Oh, you was?"
I couldn't decide whether to or
[ February 01, 2005, 02:15 PM: Message edited by: IdemosthenesI ]
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Calculators and spell-checkers are just tools, and like any tools, be become more or less dependant on them.
I can imagine somebody bemoaning these new-fangled bronze knives, and how people that use them don't know how to make a good flint knife anymore. Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Could you give me an example, as non-legalese as possible?
Is it anything like the difference between "I don't dislike him" and "I like him"?
That's a good example, MPH.
The reason I didn't include one in the previous post is I can't think of one off the top of my head, despite running into them at least weekly.
Let me look after class.
[ February 01, 2005, 02:21 PM: Message edited by: Dagonee ]
Posted by Stray (Member # 4056) on :
Professor: There is no such thing, in any language, as two positives equalling a negative. Student: Yeah, right.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
OK. I'm not sure how much I think the double-negative rule is stupid, now that I think about it.
If "nobody doesn't like him" meant "nobody likes him", then there is no way to say "there is no person that does not like him".
Let me just say that the rule in English that double negatives are wrong is just as arbitrary as the rule that says that double negatives are proper in romantic languages.
[ February 01, 2005, 02:26 PM: Message edited by: mr_porteiro_head ]
Posted by Catseye1979 (Member # 5560) on :
quote:
quote: In fact looking back I realize now that my 5th grade teacher dumbed down the spelling tests just so I could get strait A's
Off-hand, I'd say that he or she did you no favors.
In most cases I'd agree with that but the teacher saw howmuch work I was putting into spelling and coming up short and that I was on the verge of just giving up. So he made the spelling words a little easier.
When my grades improved a little I actully redoubled my effort. Not to mention I was working myself into an ulcer over my spelling grades (yes I was one of those kids that worried over grades that much).
I found out from my mother years later that my teacher that year spent a lot of time researching kids and spelling to try to find a way to help me with spelling. It came down to learning styles. While I could understand concepts way above my level I just could not Memorize well. Math for example: I did very well with work problems but formulas killed me unless I knew enough about the concepts to make a word problem out of it.
That's also why I tend to spell better in spanish then most native speakers, the concepts behind spelling in spanish are consistent where as in english is mostly just memorizing. So the teacher decided that instead of letting me push myself into an ulcer he decided to help me first bolster my confidince by thowing out a few slightly easier words (that I still had to spend hours a day learning to spell them correctly)and then also teaching me how to use a dictionary and told my mother that this new thing called spell cheack on computers was coming out and to make sure I learned that too. I learned so I really have no excuse other then lazieness for my bad spelling.
And Scottneb, don't worry about me feeling attacked. People have to work pretty darn hard to get me offended. I always try to answer a question given me (and i apoligise if my answers ever soud like I did take offence). I try to be honest about my faults and don't mind it at all if other people are honest about my faults either.
Edit: Edited for grammer but dictionary is still MIA.
[ February 01, 2005, 02:42 PM: Message edited by: Catseye1979 ]
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
Grammar will always be, to a certain extent, arbitrary. There's nothing innately mathematical about language. The current generation seems to have decided that this is yet another manifestation of the absurdity of The Man. Teaching grammar is taken as excessive cruelty and "grammar nazis" villianized.
This is silly. There is nothing restrictive about having to learn a proper (read: accepted) set of rules of usage. The sooner public schools pick up on this, the better.
However, I think Hatrack is an exception to the popular trend. Here, a pretty high standard is set and I see it as a rather helpful atmosphere. I suppose, then, that means a call to higher service to humanity of some sort...
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
I lurk on other forums where the standard is higher, but they are heavily, heavily moderated. If you post more than two or three times in standard internet grammar, you get banned.
Posted by Allegra (Member # 6773) on :
I think that Hatrack has a higher standard for grammer and spelling, but as long as someone is making an effort people cut them some slack. I think it is a good combination. This is not a place were people are made to feel like idiots because of small mistakes. They make be teased a little, but that is totally understandable.
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
quote: Calculators...I don't let my son use one, even when his book calls for it. I think they tend to hurt more than help.
I use calculators for three things:
1) Long divisions, or stuff that I can do perfectly well, except calculators save time.
2) Squared or higher roots of numbers I do not know (and fail to calculate using my system).
3) Stuff I do not know how to calculate but I know what it means on a scientific calculator.
JH
P.S. I never bring a calculator to school for maths, even though our teacher 'recommends' it for those who can't help it, or 'just in case'. He hates them, by the way.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: I think that Hatrack has a higher standard for grammer and spelling, but as long as someone is making an effort people cut them some slack. I think it is a good combination. This is not a place were people are made to feel like idiots because of small mistakes.
*giggle*
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I make that mistake all the time. It still looks more correct that the correct spelling.
Posted by Allegra (Member # 6773) on :
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In fact looking back I realize now that my 5th grade teacher dumbed down the spelling tests just so I could get strait A's --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Off-hand, I'd say that he or she did you no favors. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In most cases I'd agree with that but the teacher saw how much work I was putting into spelling and coming up short and that I was on the verge of just giving up. So he made the spelling words a little easier.
Sweetheart, I suspect you were being teased because straight is misspelled.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
It's not misspelled -- it's just the wrong word.
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
Unless she was being graded for canal-digging, it was misspelled.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
*hangs head in shame*
You're right.
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
Really? Now I feel sort of bad.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Don't. Posted by Ryuko (Member # 5125) on :
In my opinion, in Cat's eye's case, it doesn't really bother me because it's obvious that he or she is making an effort. It's when people pepper their posts with stuff like ur for your (or you're) or r for are or our that really bothers me.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
I think I missed my cue upthread, so I'll just recommend ieSpell now.
I confess to being too dependent on spell-check. But it's just so much easier to use one than check each word I am unsure of in a dictionary. And I catch a good percentage of my typos that way too.
ieSpell -- the second thing I download on a new computer. Posted by Mike (Member # 55) on :
quote:It baffles me, Porter, that you'd use a double negative and yet manage to nail the subjunctive tense.
It's the subjunctive mood, Tom. Posted by dread pirate romany (Member # 6869) on :
I saw a post title on another board "Anyone else dealing with a mimmick?(is that spelt right?)". I didn't even open it. I knew I would make a snarky reply.
Edit-punctuation
[ February 01, 2005, 06:28 PM: Message edited by: dread pirate romany ]
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Here's a double negative along the lines you already posted, MPH: "I cannot disprove that." This is correct, and contains a very distinct idea from "I can prove this."
On a similar note, "It is likely that I did it" does not mean precisely "It is not likely that I didn't do it."
Dagonee
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
The Party has taken careful note of who supports the true agenda of the proletariat; bourgeois lapdogs beware! We know who you are.
On the subject of spellcheckers, the true revolutionary does not need such crutches; correct doctrine flows from his keyboard as water from a spring. When the Revolution comes, all such programs will be consigned to the ash-heap of history along with the rest of Micro$oft's evil. The will of the people shall prevail!
Posted by urbanX (Member # 1450) on :
That's nice, we've gone and sparked a revolution.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
You misspelled Microsoft.
[ February 01, 2005, 09:31 PM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
Posted by Catseye1979 (Member # 5560) on :
quote: Sweetheart, I suspect you were being teased because straight is misspelled.
Darn those words that sound the same and are spelled diffrent. I was well into Middle school before I got There, Their, and they're right.
Anyway I can change my Native language to Spanish? Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
Si, senor.
I'm still trying to refine irony, cynicism and sarcasm. If I identify a difference between two of them, that makes one of them synonymous with the third.
Damn!
JH
[ February 02, 2005, 03:05 PM: Message edited by: Jonathan Howard ]
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"I'm still trying to refine irony, cynicism and sarcasm."
They're actually very different. Posted by scottneb (Member # 676) on :
Thanks for the clarification Tom.
[ February 02, 2005, 03:14 PM: Message edited by: scottneb ]
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
You're welcome. Now all we need is an example of irony....Oh, wait. *grin*
Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
On the calculator issue:
Our branch of National Honor Society is starting a tutoring program with one of the elementary schools in town, and yesterday was the first day. I had to check the multiplication and division homework of a couple of fifth graders, and I was taken by surprise when I had to do one of the problems out simply to double check that I was doing everything in the right order. That said, I was certainly capable of doing the multiplication and division problems without the help of a calculator, it's just been a very long time since I've had to.
I don't think we should get too dependant on calculators, but I'm certainly not going into my Calc class without a TI-89. As for spell check, I don't think we have to start really worrying until the spellcheck starts changing ur to your and idunno to I don't know. Once that becomes possible, there's no chance of anyone learning spelling or grammar.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
*decides to try it out*
"Your" isn't even on the list of suggestions from ieSpell to replace "ur."
So I guess we're safe, for now . . .
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
One day, Microsoft will appeal even more to your 12 y.o. AOL user with it's new splchkr...
but dudes teires a long time before that and der splchkr will be kewl
[ February 02, 2005, 11:40 PM: Message edited by: Jonathan Howard ]
Posted by Judas (Member # 7355) on :
I never use spell check or anything- except my brain of course, and maybe Dictionary.com if i'm unsure of a word's spelling or meaning. - But I will tell ya, my hand writing sure has gone down the moon shute ever since I got onto computers. I think it's our site owning author, Mr. Card, that really has the writing problems though- seriously, you seen his autograph? - Circleshwoop-scribble-Circleshwish-scribble-Circleshwoop ..
It's actually quite impressive..
Judas
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
quote: shute
Forgive me if this word is existent, and if my vocabulary lacks its presence - but I believe you were referring to "shoot"? It does kind of step on your point...
No hard feelings, mate!
JH
Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
JH- who are you talking to? I don't see the word shute in the three or so posts above yours and I'm too lazy to check the whole thread for one word to see your reference.
Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
I can appreciate irony. Sarcasm is childish and cynicism sophmoric. Does that help?
Posted by Judas (Member # 7355) on :
Hmm.. I've been spelling that one wrong for a long time.. i always thought a 'shute' was a shaft of sorts..
thanks JH
Judas
Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
Chute? Now nothing looks right. Don't you hate that?
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Taunt]](graemlins/taunt.gif)
![[Mad]](mad.gif)
or ![[Laugh]](graemlins/laugh.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Wall Bash]](graemlins/wallbash.gif)
![[Evil]](graemlins/evil.gif)