The political atmosphere in the US has been bothering me lately. There seems to be a lot more division along the lines than there has been in the past. I think both sides of the fence are starting to seperate themselves to the point that there may be a total political seperation in our country. I'm not exactly sure, but what I am seeing in popular culture today is leading me down this road of thought.
For example, T-shirts that outline, county by county, the places that voted for Bush on one side; on the other side is a picture I have seen depicting the "New Canada" which includes all the states that voted for Kerry. Another expample is the bracelets meant to display who voted for Bush/Kerry. If I remember correctly, one of the people who started this movement suggested it as denoting her "tribe".
I realize most of this is in jest, but I'm begining to feel like the pressure evident in our culture is reaching a boiling point that, when reached, will cause the different factions in our country to alienate one another and cause a literal seperation of the United States, similar in effect to the Great Schism of ancient Christianity.
I realize that this sounds like a whole lot of Science Fiction (Hey, we all like that, though, don't we?), but it has happened in the past, and I'm wondering if anyone thinks this type of thing could happen today, and in the US more specifically. I also would like to know if anyone else has noticed a similar trend in society, and what people think the affects of disunity among the population might have in the future.
[ January 25, 2005, 11:51 PM: Message edited by: Boris ]
Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
We'll stay together for the same reason that we did last time (Civil War) because neither side wants to give up California.
[ January 25, 2005, 11:58 PM: Message edited by: mothertree ]
Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
Yeah, but the Civil War ended in...well...a war. Is it possible that that could happen again?
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
New Canada? Ha ha ha!
Idiots.
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
I would just like to say that as soon as the election was over I stopped wearing my Bush/Cheney pin and never rubbed the Republican victories in anyone's face. I really thought/hope that we can move past this election and move on to relevant issues.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Couldn't people just start doing what is best and logical regardless of whether it's conservative or liberal?
Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
quote: Couldn't people just start doing what is best and logical regardless of whether it's conservative or liberal?
I'd like to say they can, but I've seen numerous protests since the election that are just...illogical (At least to me...to someone else they may be perfectly fine), along with conservatives blasting those who express their dismay at the election of someone they don't like. People seem to be digging in on their opinions and I don't think 4 years is going to heal this problem.
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
I keep trying to be all hiply minority party but no one takes me seriously.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
quote: Couldn't people just start doing what is best and logical regardless of whether it's conservative or liberal?
That is the problem...they all think they are doing what they see is the best thing.
I don't like Bush, but I believe that he really thinks he is doing the right thing..and in some ways he is....but the gap between the two sides is pretty far apart.
It isn;t as bad as it was during the race riots of the 60's though, or the Vietnam war protests, so I don't think this is as bad as we think it is right now.
Kwea
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:We'll stay together for the same reason that we did last time (Civil War) because neither side wants to give up California.
You can have it.
quote:Couldn't people just start doing what is best and logical regardless of whether it's conservative or liberal?
It is obvious that we don't agree as to what is best for America.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"I realize most of this is in jest, but I'm begining to feel like the pressure evident in our culture is reaching a boiling point that, when reached, will cause the different factions in our country to alienate one another and cause a literal seperation of the United States, similar in effect to the Great Schism of ancient Christianity."
Why would this be a bad thing? The Great Schism saved Christianity.
Unity for its own sake is meaningless.
Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
Suppose that it did happen, what would be the result? I'm not saying it would necessarily be a bad thing, but such an occurance would ultimately have a major effect on the world. Would the effects be good or bad? As far as I can see, a seperation of the US can have two results. One path is Civil War.
One of the major reasons cited for the secession previous to the Civil War was the stark differences in political opinion. We all know that one side was very obviously wrong in their opinion, but this is only because a great deal of time has passed since this happened. At the time, many, many people who seceded felt they were doing the right thing, and what was best for the country. They chose to make themselves heard through open rebellion and military force. The result was the economic destruction of those states which seceded. This is a bad thing.
The other path, as I can see, is just a straight speration of the country. You say that the Great Schism saved Christianity. Well, if you look at the way Christianity was in the following centuries, you'll note that the two factions did not succeed equally. The Roman Catholic church spread across continents, while the Greek Orthodox church almost stagnated. Ultimately, the Orthodox christians underwent further schism which resulted in multiple versions of Orthodox christianity.
So what would happen if there was just a plain factionalization of the US? I think the same thing would happen. One faction would succeed more easilly than the other, and would gain greater world power. The other would stagnate, lacking the power to maintain itself. I'm not going to attempt to suggest even for a second which faction would succeed and which would flounder, because I don't know enough about the two different sides in this matter. But I think a break-up of the United States would ultimately result in the ruin of a large portion of the country, if not the entirety of it. This, too, is a bad thing.
If you can suggest some other result, I'd absolutely love to hear it, because all I can see logically are these two paths. I'm hoping someone else can see something different.
[ January 26, 2005, 01:26 PM: Message edited by: Boris ]
Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
I don't think it is obvious that Roman Catholicism has done better than the Orthodox group. But I don't really know a lot more than that.
I don't really know how another civil war could result from the current situation. Emotions are high. But it's not as though the 'left' really wants to embrace Islamic fundamentalism, they just don't like the way the right is handling that situation.
Posted by Lost Ashes (Member # 6745) on :
I believe a certain amount of factionalism is built into American society, it goes with any multi-party system.
Overall, factionalism is human nature. We all separate ourselves from others, sometimes over the most tiny nuances.
I believe that looking at our current situation and having the idea of Civil War come to mind is a bit Chicken-Little-like.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
Minor quibble, you don't have a multi-party system.
I think perhaps the schism is exaggerated due to a lack of historical sense. Take a look at the squabbles of your constitutional convention, the political discourse over slavery and civil rights, and the entry into both World Wars, and then tell me today's debate is something new in the world.
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
Jebus, have you resorted to recycling your own jokes? I'm disappointed. I expected better from you.
Posted by Lost Ashes (Member # 6745) on :
Actually, KoM, I'd have to say we do have a multi-party system. While only two regularly get enough votes to be statistically regular, other parties do exist.
The Greens made a run with Nader, and I believe they qualified for matching funds. Libertarian candidates are regular on statewide and higher ballots. Perot's reform party made an impact as well on the national level (and on some local/state levels).
And that doesn't even touch on the regular spate of smaller or more obscure parties that are found on the presidential ballot.
Then there are independent candidates... many of those through the years have been on the presidential level with varying degrees of success. There have been a few members of the House of Representatives over the years that were elected running as Independents.
So, yes, we do have a multi-party system. The Republicans and Democrats have the lion's share of the attention, but any other party has the opportunity ( in law if not in reality) to be as prominent as the other two, should they develop a large enough following.
Posted by MattB (Member # 1116) on :
quote:We'll stay together for the same reason that we did last time (Civil War) because neither side wants to give up California.
I'd just like to pop in here for a moment to indicate my appreciation for this. It's really brilliant.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
I think a lot of this heat is due to the present way politics is played. We have reached a point where constant passion is required to maintain the votes to stay in power. While it would be nice to have that passion based on strongly held beliefs, it is easier for the political bosses, the Spin Lords as I call them, to promote that passion by creating fear and hatred of the other side.
One of the reasons I love this board is that so many of us strive to breach the differences in our beliefs.
But that is not how to gain a senate seat, or control of a house of congress. Its easier to spread fear of the evil designs of the greedy opponent, and hatred of the bigotted attitude of the ignorant opponent.
Fear and Hate are two great passions, especially when creating Love takes to much time and effort.
So each side sets up their puppet Presidential contender, and sees who can do the most to tear down the opponent.
I have an example. After President Bush's Second Inaugural Speech, NPR had people call in to talk about it. In particular the wanted to know if President Bush was really reaching out to the other side. One man, claiming to be Republican responded, "Yes, President Bush is reaching out to the Democrats, but if they don't take his hand, while we'll run right over them."
The announcer said, "Do you think the Democrats will slap the proffered hand?"
The Republican laughed. "Sure they will. They are nothin but Hate. The Hate him and are just filled with hate. Everything he does, they just hate." There was so much hatred in this man's voice it scared me. He hated the Democrats for hating the Republicans. Of course, why do some Democrats hate Republicans? Because the Republicans hate them, and the circle goes round and round.
But it goes on.
The Announcer, "What would you do, what Democratic causes would you support in order to bring some peace between the Democrats and Republicans. What would you offer?"
The Republican, "Why, we'd offer a lot. We'd offer to let them in our church and we'd offer to show them how to pray."
Basically, the only thing this Republican considered middle ground would be the total surrender of Democratic ideals to his.
And the same is done on the other side. Hate and Fear motivate voters.
I for one, will not allow myself to be driven by fear and hatred.
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
quote: Jebus, have you resorted to recycling your own jokes? I'm disappointed. I expected better from you.
Well since it isn't my joke in the first place I've already resorted to cheap tactics for laughs, may aswell keep going.