I enjoyed it very much, while I do think some of the scenes of him wrestling with demons may have been a bit over the top. And I've seen portraits of Martin Luther and he didn't look much like Joseph Fiennes. But then, who does? He also didn't age in the movie, though the events spanned some 30 years of history. Martin Luther must have been the first Dick Clark.
I made my children watch it, because when I mentioned I was going to rent the movie about Martin Luther's life, my seven year old said "you forgot his last name, it's King."
I'm pleased my children learned about MLK in school, certainly he's an influential figure and the Civil Rights struggle should never be forgotten or downplayed, but I'm sad that so little is taught to kids about the Reformation. Talk about things that were significant in our history!
My oldest said she'd learned the name Martin Luther before, but only because it was mentioned that Martin Luther King was named for the Protestant Reformer. She had never heard of Erasmus, or John Calvin. She had no idea what people went through, to get the Bible into the hands of the common people. We so easily take for granted that there is a Bible available to us in every bookstore, or in every hotel room.
She was appalled at the story of William Tyndale, who felt so strongly that people should be able to read the Bible in their own language that he continued to work toward that end even while in prison awaiting his execution.
So Belle has a new mission. I'm working on a series of lessons for our 4th-6th grade group at church. They're Protestants for the love of Pete, but don't know how the Protestant faith came into being or what the personal cost was for so many! It's a travesty.
I hope that they will eventually, as I did, be moved to tears when they watch something like Luther and hear those words he spoke at the Diet of Worms (which were reproduced faithfully in the movie):
"my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not recant anything, for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. Here I stand. I cannot do otherwise. God help me."
Posted by littlemissattitude (Member # 4514) on :
Good luck, Belle. That's a worthy project. It's a fascinating period of history. I took a semester course on Reformation history, and was just enthralled. Of course, you'll want to do a fairly straightforward explanation for that age group, but the whole story is fascinating and complex, much more so than I had imagined before I took the class.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Was that the PBS special? It was very fascinating.
Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
If you are open to info from other sects, the Jehovah's witnesses have an interesting video series about the Bible and some of the sacrifices people have made to have it widely availabe.
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
I really really really wanted to see it, but so far as I could determine, it never came to the theaters here. So I didn't get to.
quote:He also didn't age in the movie, though the events spanned some 30 years of history. Martin Luther must have been the first Dick Clark.
I've noticed that in a lot of movies. It's like they don't even realize that time is passing. It isn't as though we lack the technology to make actors look older. If Brent Spiner could play both Data and Dr. Soong in the same episode of ST:TNG--a television show!--then I would think a movie would, what with its higher budget and all, be able to handle transformations at least as complicated.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:She had never heard of Erasmus
No WAY!
Buy her Quest for Glory RIGHT NOW! No child should not know the greatest magician ever to live!
Wait. . . I might be thinking of Fenris. . . I can't decide. . .
At any rate-- good luck, Belle.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
The reformation was touched on in my HS history class during the same 3 pages as the printing press.
Luckily, my parents always talked to us about history and we always had questions about what we read, so I knew about the Reformers by the time I was 8. Go you for making sure your kids have the same chance! Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Oh, this was an actual movie, and not a documentary.... *Sweatdrop*
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
I was fortunate. I took AP European History in high school. We went into quite a bit of detail on Martin Luther. What a fascinating person he was.
,,Hier stehe ich, ich kann nicht anders.'' Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Incidentally, I team teach the 10 and 11 year old class. We had a Catholic visitor this last week, and our lesson was on. . . the Apostasy. We covered Martin Luther briefly, including the quote by Belle, above. (Also covered John Wycliff and Roger Williams-- again, very briefly)
It's one thing to be a missionary, with the express purpose of going out and teaching and coverting people. . . quite another to spring Martin Luther on an unsuspecting 12 year old Catholic kid who came to church with a friend.
I felt like a schmuck, and I wasn't even teaching that week-- just doing crowd control.
Mormon Sunday School lessons don't encourage plurality in the least.
Posted by dread pirate romany (Member # 6869) on :
I have yet to see that movie, which is bad to admit, as I am Lutheran and work in Children's Ed for my church. ( makes mental note to go rent it)
(edit for spelling)
[ January 17, 2005, 02:38 PM: Message edited by: dread pirate romany ]
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
The way I figure it, considering the fact that I'm kind of on the outs with my church (though techinically as the church librarian, I'm still on the Christian Education committee) I'll probably never actually get to teach it, so if anyone else wants it when I'm finished - you'd be welcome to it.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I watched that documentary Syn! It was pretty well done.
Belle, I like that you're putting together those lessons. Isn't that quote of Luther's apocryphal though? I had that impression, but I'm not sure where I got it from.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Noemon, I'm not sure - it's in my college history book! (not that that makes it gospel or anything)
I'll look and see if there is anything out there that calls into question the accuracy of the quote...now I'm curious.
Okay, Bartleby attributes it to him, with the preface "According to tradition"
It's also inscribed on the monument to him at Worms.
No way to tell for sure, since none of us were there.
I did find where some historians believe "Here I stand" was added later, that it wasn't recorded on the spot.
That may well be, but it doesn't diminish the power of his speech. According to Reformation historian Heiko Oberman, writing in his book Luther:Man Between God and the Devil the actual text as recorded would be translated:
quote:Unless I am convinced by the testimony of the Holy Scriptures or by evident reason—for I can believe neither pope nor councils alone, as it is clear that they have erred repeatedly and contradicted themselves—I consider myself convicted by the testimony of Holy Scripture, which is my basis; my conscience is captive to the Word of God. Thus I cannot and will not recant, because acting against one's conscience is neither safe nor sound. God help me. Amen.
[ January 18, 2005, 12:18 AM: Message edited by: Belle ]
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
I haven't seen it yet- I keep meaning to - I would love to see the lesson plan when your done, Belle!
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
As much as I appreciate the efforts of early reformation leaders like Wycliff (or Tyndale and Peter Waldo, in the era before him), Erasmus, etc, I've had problems with Luther. From all that I've read about him, his writings and his speeches, he was very abrasive, arrogant, judgemental, anti-semetic and cruel to those he disagreed with. Will Durant, in The Story of Civilization- The Reformation, used the word 'vituperous' repeatedly. While I agree that the excesses of the Church, the sale of indulgences and corruption, required a reformation and they needed a strong leader (and I appreciate his efforts at translation), I have trouble reconciling the mild Christian personality Paul and Jesus repeatedly mentioned we have with that. (Of course, I have a similar problem with John Calvin or Jan Hus persecuting what they considered heretics- which they themselves were, according to Catholic doctrine! Burning Michael Servetus at the stake because he didn't believe in the Trinity while decrying the corruption and oppression of the Catholic Church is the pot calling the kettle black, to me and simply exchanging one authority system for another.)
I am glad the Reformation happened and am profoundly glad that men like Tyndale, Wycliff and others worked so hard to break the chains of ecclesiastical authority and made the Bible available for the common man to read without intermediary. But not all involved in the Reformation, I think, were the 'saints' that they were made out to be.
I'll do a little reading when I get home. I haven't seen the movie, so I'm not sure any of that was touched on.
[ January 18, 2005, 09:44 AM: Message edited by: IanO ]
Posted by Ben (Member # 6117) on :
my brother gave me the movie for Christmas. i haven't watched it yet.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: But not all involved in the Reformation, I think, were the 'saints' that they were made out to be.
If it's any consolation, probably more than half the saints weren't the saints they were made out to be.
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
Too true, Tom.
Though I was referring more to the adulation given to some of these men when, in many respects, they were just as narrow minded, bigoted, and willing to persecute (and even kill) people they disagreed with as the Church they fought against. Calvin, in the Servetus incident in particular, comes to mind. And Luther, for his harshness and arrogance.
[ January 18, 2005, 10:29 AM: Message edited by: IanO ]
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I remember being genuinely disappointed in Gandhi when I read about his family life.
And, yeah, a lot of human history is all about people fighting oppressors for the right to oppress people in a different way, even if they wouldn't say so themselves. I think, though, that we get closer to the Right with each iteration; with each little revolution, we pare away more and more superstition and speculation about the "essential," and I have faith that, when this whole process is over, we'll be left with what truly is essential to a healthy society at the end. Sadly, I don't think that's going to happen any time soon.
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
Yeah, I felt the same way about Ghandi. But, in my mind, I have more respect for Ghandi than Luthor. Maybe I'm splitting hairs. I have mixed feelings about MLK, too, for his infidelities (as opposed to, say, Malcolm X, whom I greatly admire and respect even when I disagreed with him). I don't expect people to be perfect. But I despise personal hypocrisy, especially when your reputation and respect sort of hinge on it.
Nicely put about each iteration.
Posted by ctm (Member # 6525) on :
Scott R-- speaking as a Catholic, and a religious ed teacher, I don't think you should feel like a schmuck! I didn't learn about Luther until an adult, but I've taught my own kids about him-- I think the reformation and the reasons behind it are too important to ignore. Which may make me a not-so-good Catholic, but I think it makes me a better Christian.
Belle, I'd be interested in looking at the program when you are done, either to use with my own kids or to use at our religious ed program in some way. I think it's great that your doing it.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Luther was not a saint and was far from perfect, that's easy enough to see. Few men who make great history are what we'd in modern times refer to as a "saint."
Quiet, meek people don't usually make enough of a mark to gain them notice in the history books.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Shame they're going to inherit the Earth, really.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
I thought the Greek would inherit the Earth.
(sorry, couldn't resist throwing in a little Monty Python reference )
Speaking of people who weren't meek and quiet, Jesus of Nazareth anyone? The money changers at the temple wouldn't see him as soft-voiced, kind and gentle man.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
Only if you're not meek.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
Meek doesn't mean you sit around and let someone tromple you. It means you are patient and humble. You can have power that you only use when absolutely necessary and still be meek.
[ January 18, 2005, 02:23 PM: Message edited by: PSI Teleport ]
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"You can have power that you only use when absolutely necessary and still be meek."
But as Belle notes, very few of the people in our history books fit this description.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
Maybe. It seems like there are quite a few people who are known specifically for their meekness. Probably not the majority, but still.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"It seems like there are quite a few people who are known specifically for their meekness."
Who?
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
Christ.
Hobbes Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
Going on the way I described meekness, I'd probably put Ghandi in that category. He was pretty active, but it was that much more notable because of his passiveness.
Meek is, in my opinion, a character trait. It doesn't mean that you never exhibit any strength or emotion.
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
I was raised Lutheran (ELCA), and when it came time for confirmation class, I was the only one who knew anything about Martin Luther, thanks to my history classes. That was scary.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Hm. Neither Gandhi nor Christ were particularly meek, even in the way you've described them.
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
There's a difference between meekness- mildness of temper, without haughtiness or vanity, able to endure injury with patience without resentment or being vindictive- and just passively accepting things and letting people trample you. Moses was "by far, the meekest man on the earth," (Numbers 12:3) Jesus also displayed meekness (Matthew 11:28,29).
Meekness is not based on weekness or spinelessness. It stems from strength and faith. Hence Jesus could be meek even while cleansing the temple. He was not overstepping his authority, nor was he acting out of personal injury or insult. Instead, he was zealous for God's house and refused to let people pollute it and take advantage of lowly people.
He was never hateful or condescending or haughty. Strong, yes. Fearless, yes. Contemptuous, no.
Luther was, despite a similar situation going on in the Catholic Church. Calvin was, too, going even further in becoming the persecutor even has he hypocritically decried the 'terrible persecutors' of the Church.
Other Reformers were able to show meekness and love even as they stood up to the Church.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
In the psalm that Jesus quoted when saying “the meek shall inherit the earth” (psalm 37) “meek” is contrasted with “wicked,” (especially wicked in regard to economic injustice) and the Hebrew word used, `anav, is also translated as “poor” “humble” and “needy.” I suspect that there and in the beatitudes the statement “the meek shall inherit the earth” is more about the toppling of hierarchies of status than it is about recommending a particular attitude.
Edit to change a 1 to a 7. Thanks, Ian.
[ January 18, 2005, 06:49 PM: Message edited by: dkw ]
Posted by dread pirate romany (Member # 6869) on :
Belle, I'd love to see that too.
I have no doubt if you are being led to write it, God wants you to use it somewhere.
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
BTW, it's 37:11.
Regardless of the exact word, "But a slave of the Lord does not need to fight, but needs to be gentle toward all, qualified to teach, keeping himself restrained under evil, instructing with mildness those not favorably disposed; as perhaps God may give them repentance leading to an accurate knowledge of truth." - 2 Timothy 2:25
[ January 18, 2005, 06:46 PM: Message edited by: IanO ]
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Oops. I typed 37:11, then deleted the verse number because I wanted to refer to the whole thing, and obviously missed and deleted the "7:1" in the middle instead of the :11 at the end.
Thanks for catching it.
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
Figured that. I doubted YOU'D miss that.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
On second thought, that'd be an awful weird mistake. I probably miss-typed the 1 for the 7 in the first place.
Posted by Ben (Member # 6117) on :
Finally watched the movie. i enjoyed it the film. i was surprised to find that it was sponsored by Thrivant, dunno why.
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
He also didn't age in the movie, though the events spanned some 30 years of history. Martin Luther must have been the first Dick Clark. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Dont Know]](graemlins/dontknow.gif)
![[Confused]](confused.gif)