According to my copy of Websters: "The pronunciation (with "t" pronounced) until recently considered more or less illiterate, is not uncommon among the educated in some sections, and is often used in singing."
When I was in elementary school "often" was on a short list of corrections teachers made in children's pronunciation. Recently I have noticed elementary teachers pronouncing the t.
Also, I have noticed people pronouncing Wed-nes-day as it is spelled, in a similar fashion. In both cases, it seems not only that people are pronouncing the words incorrectly, but actually stressing the mispronunciation, as though they intend to "correct" people who aren't pronouncing it the way they do.
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
That "t" was in no way allowed to be pronounced in the church choir I used to sing in - we got the long hick lecture the one time the director heard the "t" . . .
*shudders*
I was also recently listening to Anne Murray sing Adeste Fidelis (?spelling) and realized how poor her pronunciation - and wooden - and stilted - sounded . . .
sigh.
Sometimes, ignorance really IS bliss.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
*shrug*
I often pronounce the T in often.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
The only time I pronounce Wednesday as it's spelled is when I'm making sure I'm spelling it correctly.
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
Ever wonder why the functionally illiterate -- eg Webster's -- are always trying to set the rules of language?
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
The people at Webster's are functionally illiterate? O_o I don't know what that makes me.
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
quote: Usage Note: During the 15th century English experienced a widespread loss of certain consonant sounds within consonant clusters, as the (d) in handsome and handkerchief, the (p) in consumption and raspberry, and the (t) in chestnut and often. In this way the consonant clusters were simplified and made easier to articulate. With the rise of public education and literacy and, consequently, people's awareness of spelling in the 19th century, sounds that had become silent sometimes were restored, as is the case with the t in often, which is now frequently pronounced. In other similar words, such as soften and listen, the t generally remains silent.
*emphasis mine*
I've also learned that the t is usually pronounced in British English, and less in American English. And from what I've seen in movies, it's correct. Now I wouldn't equate the language used in movies with the current language, but still, it might be an indicator, don't you think?
Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
I like the sound of the word when the "t" is pronounced.
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
Anybody who'd waste their time "correct"ing common usage when they should be extracting meaning is functionally illiterate.
Posted by Cashew (Member # 6023) on :
I was educated under the "British English" system, and we were told in no uncertain terms that "ofTen" was American pronunciation, and should be avoided ... That was from a pretty conservative anglophile, but you rarely if ever hear "ofTen" here. On the issue of pronouncing all the consonants that was touched on earlier: What's with "butTOCK" and "defendANT", where the stress is placed on the last syllable, rather than on the first for "buttock" and the second for "defendant"?
[ December 12, 2004, 01:14 PM: Message edited by: Cashew ]
Posted by WheatPuppet (Member # 5142) on :
Were you also told to use "an" before a word beginning with H, rather than "a"? That always confused me:
The British write and say "An Historic Account" Americans (usually) write and say "A Historic Account"
I've heard that this has to do with accents, in Britain, H-words often have the H dropped. So, for instance, "An Historic Account" would be pronounced "An 'Istoric Account". The vowel I leads to the usage of AN, rather than A. Wierd...
Posted by Cashew (Member # 6023) on :
Yes, exactly that. Specifically, "an otel" for "a hotel". But few say that now. Most people would look at you funny if you used that pronunciation. Conversely, Americans pronounce "herbs" "erbs", right? We say "herbs" with the "h".
[ December 12, 2004, 01:30 PM: Message edited by: Cashew ]
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
quote: The British write and say "An Historic Account"
Why, I am Australian with more of an English accent than virtually any other around, and I always said it properly: A H...
But then, my father is an English teacher.
"We", English and spinoffs, say "herbs"; Americans, as far as I heard, say "rbs".
[ December 12, 2004, 02:16 PM: Message edited by: Jonathan Howard ]
Posted by Vadon (Member # 4561) on :
I say my t's in words like often, fight, and mountain... It doesn't really bug me when people don't, I just see it as a sign of laziness or accent...
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
Is there anyone who says "figh" and "mounain"?
I have my classic centralised accent. I do feel slightly uncomfortable with "ofTen", just like "advertISEment". I always pronounced it "advertISment"; no "ise", just "is".
Ah, God "lp" (herb => rb, help => lp) us.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I allways, allways pronounce the t in often.
I also pronounce comfortable and vegetable with 4 syllables each.
I sometimes pronounce Wednesday, February, herb and sword as they are written, but just because I'm goofing around.
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
quote:I say my t's in words like often, fight, and mountain
A useless comparison, in that, unlike the T in "often", those in "fight" and "mountain" are not supposed to be silent. More to the point, do you pronounce the T in "castle"? How about "Christmas"? Or the B in "lamb"? Or the P in "cupboard"? Or the K and GH cluster in "knight"?
Posted by Ophelia (Member # 653) on :
Jonathan, some people just use glottal stops in place of the T's in a lot of words. And then throwing in the syllabic N's and nasalized vowels that get used in mountain, well, normal pronunciation looks a lot less like the spelling and a lot more like something I'm unable to write without using the official IPA symbols . . .
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:do you pronounce the T in "castle"?
Sometimes, but only when I'm messing around.
quote: How about "Christmas"?
Sometimes, when I'm either messing around or referring to Christmas being a celebration of the birth of Christ.
quote: Or the B in "lamb"?
Again, only when I'm goofing off.
quote: Or the P in "cupboard"?
Never on that one.
quote:Or the K and GH cluster in "knight"?
All the time, when I pronounce it like the silly French knights in Monty Python. K-Nig-It. Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Most Americans do not pronounce the T in mountain and button.
[ December 12, 2004, 02:56 PM: Message edited by: mr_porteiro_head ]
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Most Americans can't say "Worchestershire sauce" (WOO-shter sauce) properly, either.
So what?
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
Better than Israeli transliteration!
"Vor-Chester Sauce."
Posted by babager (Member # 6700) on :
I know this is petty.. but I can't stand it when people pronounce Illinois "IlliNOISE" Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
JH, that's closer to the way it should be than what my grandma says-- "WER-shter-shire sauce".
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
My grandmother is a classic: confuses genders, declentions, the vocatives, accusatives, genetives (whatever they're called, datives and ablitives too), time, person, etc.
"Vootzester?"
Wash-Esther is closer!
P.S. Your name fits it. Though I prefer BBQ Source! (Sauce, source, who cares?)
[ December 12, 2004, 03:23 PM: Message edited by: Jonathan Howard ]
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
When you think of it, it should be Illin-wa.
Just like Q-ua (choir). What's bad with "quire"? I hate "gaol", though.
Posted by WheatPuppet (Member # 5142) on :
draught
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Why do they even spell it that way? English has too many unnessasary letters in it.
Posted by Vadon (Member # 4561) on :
I say the t in christmas... I don't in castle... But I do in christmas.
How they say it around here is like... "Mou-in" and "fi" (Long I.)
Posted by jehovoid (Member # 2014) on :
We always used to laugh at my grandmother when she would say things like, "Don't do that a-GAIN." I guess we usually say it as "a-gen/gin." And after a semester of Brit Lit I find myself putting "an" in front of "h" words sometimes.
Posted by Vadon (Member # 4561) on :
What, like an hour? That's correct... You put an before words with a noun sounding syllable.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
An hour is different from an history. An hour is always correct because the h is silent.
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
Edit: I guess I misread the post about english pronunciation, but I'll leave the rest here.
From Pirates of Penzance:
General. Tell me, have you ever known what it is to be an orphan? Pirates. (disgusted) Oh, dash it all! King. Here we are again! General. I ask you, have you ever known what it is to be an orphan? King. Often! General. Yes, orphan. Have you ever known what it is to be one? King. I say, often. All. (disgusted) Often, often, often. (Turning away) General. I don't think we quite understand one another. I ask you, have you ever known what it is to be an orphan, and you say "orphan". As I understand you, you are merely repeating the word "orphan" to show that you understand me. King. I didn't repeat the word often. General. Pardon me, you did indeed. King. I only repeated it once. General. True, but you repeated it. King. But not often. General. Stop! I think I see where we are getting confused. When you said "orphan", did you mean "orphan", a person who has lost his parents, or "often", frequently? King. Ah! I beg pardon - I see what you mean - frequently. General. Ah! you said "often", frequently. King. No, only once. General. (irritated) Exactly - you said "often", frequently, only once.
[ December 12, 2004, 09:38 PM: Message edited by: Glenn Arnold ]
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
BTW, it's not the pronunciation of the "t" I was referring to as my pet peeve, it is the condescending overpronunciation, as though those of us that don't pronounce it are wrong, when in common usage up to about 20 years ago, the "t" was silent.
The Wednesday thing I've only heard within the last 5 or 10 years, but it's getting more common.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
quote: The British write and say "An Historic Account" Americans (usually) write and say "A Historic Account"
I've heard that this has to do with accents, in Britain, H-words often have the H dropped. So, for instance, "An Historic Account" would be pronounced "An 'Istoric Account". The vowel I leads to the usage of AN, rather than A. Wierd
"Istoric" would be an accent thing in England itself. Properly, "historic" has an 'h'. Unless you're Eliza Doolittle 'oo never pronounces 'er aitches, or of a similar accent, then you say "History" and "a historic account".
As far as I know, all British schools teach "historic" as having an "a" not an "an".
EDIT: I also believe that the British say "offen" although I believe that this is become less and less prevelent, as stated above. I think I, for one, use often and offen interchangeble.
[ December 12, 2004, 09:36 PM: Message edited by: Teshi ]
Posted by blackcatwings (Member # 7077) on :
My mom really annoys me because she pronounces “exploration” “expiration”. I can’t stand it! I can’t talk to my cousin either because I’ll want to correct her grammar. I know it’s kind of rude, but I drives me insane. Posted by WheatPuppet (Member # 5142) on :
"It's nucular you idiot, the S is silent."
Posted by Liaison (Member # 6873) on :
Ahh! The one word mispronunciation that REALLY bothers me is nuc-yoo-lar. Gah! That drives me insane! Just so happens that the President says it that way an awful lot. It's Nuc-lear! Wheat's little quotation is a personal favorite. Posted by jehovoid (Member # 2014) on :
That's the beautiful thing about language. If enough people mispronounce something, then that's how it's pronounced. Ah, I love the smell of democracy in the morning.
Posted by eslaine (Member # 5433) on :
quote: The only time I pronounce Wednesday as it's spelled is when I'm making sure I'm spelling it correctly.
Get out of my brain, mac!
Posted by WheatPuppet (Member # 5142) on :
I love Family Guy. Posted by jehovoid (Member # 2014) on :
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[No No]](graemlins/nono.gif)
![[Mad]](mad.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)