I often find that posting about decisions I am trying to make helps me clarify my thoughts, often in response to things people say, and helps me make the decisions more easily, so here is what I am thinking about now.
In college, I double-majored in English Literature and Mathematics. I went to grad school for literature, and taught that for a year or so at Clemson (to freshmen). When I was teaching English, I really struggled to keep up with the grading . . . I mean, in the worst way imaginable.
I eventually switched to teaching math for a variety of reasons. The main one was economic: there were a lot more jobs around for math teachers than for English teachers. But I also found that I liked not being disputed when I said something was wrong, and I believed that the grading load in math would be less.
My first few years as a math teacher, I really struggled to keep up with the grading. My problem is that I am obsessive compulsive, and a perfectionist. (I think I;ll make a typo or two on pupose here for all the smartasses to point at.() When I taught English, I would write comments all over the margins of students' papers responding to the things they said, so that they would know that someone really read what they had to say. I would also write a note to the student at the end of the paper, responding to it as a whole and also telling them what they had done well, and what they needed to improve on. At the end of this note, I would put the grade. I found that students almost invariably turned to the back, found their grade, and put the paper away. When I started teaching math, well, yeah, the problem is right or wrong, but there is still the whole issue of partial credit. When I started, I used to look at all of the students' responses for a particular problem, say number four, and decide on an amount of partial credit to assign for wrong answers based on just how wrong the work was. I also marked on the work precisely all the places where a problem was wrong, and often wrote explanations as well. Upon receiving their tests or quizzes back, students typically looked at the score and put them away.
Eventually, I came to realize that all of the effort I was putting into making their assessment as meaningful as possible was backfiring. They could not learn a lot from my comments if it took me three weeks to return papers because I was so far behind; by the time they got papers back, the relevance was gone. I also was taking time away from creative lesson planning with all the time I spent grading. Finally, I observed that I was neither energetic nor friendly in class when I stayed up until 2 feaking am every freaking morning grading (not to mention the fact that I hardly ever saw my wife).
So I learned that in order to be a better teacher, I had to cut corners. In this case, less really was more.
Now, I am not necessarily the fastest grader, but I am not horribly behind. Papers are sometimes returned the next day, but they are usually returned within a week. I don't live in stress. I could return things faster, but that would mean less time on Hatrack. Nobody complains, so I feel like I have come far enough.
So why do I bring this all up?
Last year, our AP English teacher, who was, by many accounts, incompetent, did not return. At the end of the year, the head of the language arts department, who knew my background, suggested to me that I would make a good AP English teacher, because nobody else really much wanted to teach this class. I pretty much blew it off at the time. Among other things, it was inconceivable to me that the English teachers would not be clamoring all over each other to teach this class. Last week, the teacher who ended up with AP English quit. She had been a corporate trainer before becoming a teacher. She took the pay cut to be a teacher because she believed, after September 11th, that this was a way she could give something to the community. She found this job too stressful, and so she returned to the corporate environment. Of course, corporate jobs won't wait until June or August for you to begin; if they offer you a job, they generally expect you to start soon, so that's why she left us midyear. I really liked this lady, and she was a talented classroom teacher. She told me that, among other things, she was constantly stressed out because of the grading load, and when she showed me what she did for each paper, it reminded me of what I used to do. She had papers she had still not given back from the first quarter of this school year. I wish we had had the occasion to speak about this before, because I would have tried to give her my "75% of you in a timely manner is better than 150% of you two months too late speech." But now it's too late for that. Sadly, we have lost a great classroom teacher.
Anyway, I observed that they again struggled to fill the job, and finally shifted a reluctant teacher's schedule. So I asked the assistant principal, out of idle curiosity, if they would still be looking for an AP English teacher at the end of the year, and if I was, in his estimation, qualified enough to think about applying for the job. He told me they would be, and that as things currently stand I would be (assuming I go add a Language Arts endorsement to my certificate, which would be no big deal). In other words, they are still looking to hire teachers (because we have a shortage as it is), and in the unlikely event that they find someone with many years of experience teaching AP who wants to teach it, well, I would no longer be the choice. But, failing that, it seems to be mine for the taking if I want it.
So do I want it?
Reasons other English teachers might not want to teach AP:
Your performance is evaluated at the end of the year in a very public fashion, based on your AP scores.
AP parents are very, um, demanding.
AP students can be whiny and demanding, and vindictive when they don't get the grades they want.
Reasons why perhaps I should not teach AP:
The grading. I think I have improved, but have I really? Or is it just the fact that I teach math that makes me think this?
The planning time (including reading)
Having to spend a lot of time at first fielding questions about whether a math teacher is qualified to teach English
Reasons why I would enjoy teaching AP:
I always loved literature and math, and so far I've shut down one side of that or the other. This would give me a chance to teach a little of both.
I like AP students. I teach many future AP students in precalculus and Honors Algebra 2, and the high-powered students and their parents don't scare me.
I am not an education major; I majored in the fields I have taught, and so I get off on the higher-level stuff. When I taught middle school math for a time, I was bored silly with the material. I wanted to teach the advanced stuff, not to teach advanced kids (solely) but because advanced stuff was intrinsically interesting/exciting for me. Same goes for lit.
Any advice? Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Tough one. I personally could never teach English -- for exactly the reasons you mentioned (among others). And as for being behind on grading . . . ah, let's not discuss that.
If you tried it for a year, and didn't like it, would you likely be able to go back to teaching math?
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
AP students, I believe, find significant more use out of comments pertaining to the actual writing so your notes in the margins will be far more appreciated I am sure. If you do decide to teach AP English please keep in mind two things. First, please don't fill the reading list with liberal book after liberal book, its fine to have a political opinion, but I didn't appreciate my teachers propogating them. Second, somehow (I'm not really sure how) choose books that aren't too boring, senior year's list really dampened my enthusiasm for reading.
Posted by Allegra (Member # 6773) on :
I think you should go for it. You are knowledgeable and excited about your subject and I think it will show and make the class better. I would have stuck with AP lit and comp for more then a semester this year if I didn't want to shove my head through the wall everytime I was in the class. Don’t worry about the students. Speaking as an AP student, all you have to do is know how to put us in our place. Consider what the students have to say if they do not like the way something was graded and be willing to tell them where they went wrong, but don't be afraid to say you deserve the B+ stop obsessing.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
There are liberal books and not liberal books?! I don't wish to derail this thread but I am intrigued- newfoundlogic just, quickly, what bad experiences have you had and what is a liberal book?
I thought the English AP Exam consisted of fairly standard works!
No one else discuss this this is Icarus' thread and I'm being terrible by stealing it for a thread or two but I just want to know.
Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
Yes, Icarus, consider assigning O'Rilley's "Factor for Kids" to the class. I'm sure they'll appreciate the reprieve from that liberal trash they usually teach in AP English.
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
OK, so after you've assassinated the Soviet mole in the Principal's Office and had to flee in the prototype XJ-5 rocket that the kids in the Physics Lab are building, you'll meet a beautiful French teacher who's suffering from amnesia...
What, not that sort of plot? Eh, nevermind.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote: I found that students almost invariably turned to the back, found their grade, and put the paper away.
My junior high history teacher used to write comments about the things I turned in. I'd write historic fiction for some of my history projects, and she'd critique.
I cared less about the grade than about her comments.
I emailed her (took some doing to find an email address, but I pulled it off) when I found out I was going to be published, just to say thanks for the encouragement.
She was appreciative.
I made Mrs. Stone cry. My life is fulfilled, I can die in peace.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Crap. The above makes me sound like I'm not Mr. Apathy.
Crap.
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
Books like Catch-22, The Slaughterhouse 5, Handmaid's Tale, and others of that nature. In one book, Reservation Blues, the main character says, "If God was good, why would he create Rush Limbaugh?"
The AP exam itself isn't biased, but the books that I was assigned to read by my teachers certainly were.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
I loved it when I got comments on my papers, I would always read them through several times. There's nothing more disapointing than getting back a paper you've slaved over with nothing more than the grade and a "great job."
When it comes to teaching AP English: I had both a great AP English teacher and an awful one. The difference between them was that the great one knew what she was doing, and communicated that. The bad one was obviously very insecure, which made her incapable of admitting she was wrong, or admitting another viewpoint might be possible or right. It didn't help that she really wasn't competent enough to teach the class (I don't say that lightly, or for an ulterior motive, I got a worse grade in the class with a good teacher). She spent most of her class time going on very liberal diatribes, which those of us who wanted to learn about literature found sort of frustrating.
I think you'd be a great AP English teacher and I think the students could really use you.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Hm. Thank you nfl. I never notice either way because I've grown up reading god is dead/God is everywhere. Just shows how naive I am.
[ December 07, 2004, 10:46 PM: Message edited by: Teshi ]
Posted by signal (Member # 6828) on :
For the record, I always read the comments that teachers wrote, and appreciated the time they took to do so. I never cared about letter grades. As long as I was learning, I was happy. So a big thank you to all the teachers here that care.
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
Zeugma, my dad's wife gave us that book for our son. I read it. It's.....well, it's written like it would appeal to conservative parents of teenagers. After I was done reading it, I wondered mightily whether any kids would actually like it.
If I'd read it as a teen, I'd have probably burned it before getting halfway through.
Ic, I know whatever you choose to do, you'll be good at. On the grading thing, I personally (if I were a teacher) would put the big time grading effort into kids' papers who have a passion for the subject, and give your cursory eye to rest. I loved my HS English teacher because he put comments on all my papers, and pushed me to be a better writer. He was the head of the department, and I know he put more effort into my papers than others...as a senior I worked a term as his aide and saw some of the other kids' papers. Some he wrote lots on, some, just a word or two and the grade. He had several of us as aides and all of us he put more effort into it...and I doubt it was an accident that we all loved to read and write.
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
quote:Crap. The above makes me sound like I'm not Mr. Apathy.
Crap.
I pretty much just follow Scott around and try to get him to notice me.
Joe - You will make the right decision. I know it in my heart. And once you do... hey, get me a job?
Posted by Papa Moose (Member # 1992) on :
My younger brother and older sister are both teachers, and while the English/math issue hasn't come up (bro teaches math and sister teaches science), the AP versus non has. They've both noted that the AP students actually want to learn, where many/most of the other students are there because they have to be. That meant far less energy necessary to keep a semi-controlled atmosphere and more available to get excited about the material. The AP classes have consistently been more enjoyable for them to teach.
--Pop
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
While the school I teach at doesn't offer AP classes, it does have divided classes for 10-12 grade science. And I'd have to absolutely agree with Pop -- it makes a HUGE difference to be teaching students who all really want to learn.
Posted by Wussy Actor (Member # 5937) on :
Quit teaching and open a roadside hand made jewelry stand somewhere in the Arizona desert. It's fun and rewarding. And if you miss school, you can always grade the cactus.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
*snort*
Thank you for all the advice so far. I am going to quietly continue to watch and think. In the meantime, just to clarify, I'm not questioning what AP kids (or their parents) are like. I already know what they are like, because I already teach future AP kids. Five of my six classes are honors. (And therefore, getting to teach "nicer" kids is not a factor, one way or the other. I already teach great kids. )
Posted by keepsmilin (Member # 6607) on :
I would recommend teaching AP english. My AP english teacher had such a huge impact on my life, on my ability to think, to write clearly...and we read some amazing stuff. I am pretty sure the whole grading thing would work itself out because when your preparing for a big test like that, you read all the comments you can get. I generally read my papers over several times after getting them back, even if I just flip to the back for the grade in class. good luck!
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
I'm reading 'Their Eyes Were Watching God,' right now, for the first time. I sloughed it off in my AP class.
I'm sorry I did so-- it's a brilliant piece of work. What usually doesn't work (extended metaphor, heavy imagery) does here. It's beautiful.
I may have to read some Toni Morrison next. . .
Posted by Zan (Member # 4888) on :
It's a tough decision. It sounds like you want to do it, but you have to factor in how it's going to affect your family life and your sanity.
I agree with everyone that AP students are far more likely to actually use and appreciate the extra comments that you make when grading. That puts you back to square one, though. Grading would take a lot of time.
How many students would it be? A few or a full class? I think that might make a big difference in your decision.
Would it start very soon or next semester?
Posted by AvidReader (Member # 6007) on :
Personally, I always assumed I'd have an A and paid little attention to the grade. It was actually one of those comments that taught me that yet is not a conjunction. Who knew?
There's only two things to worry about in the AP English class. 1) Because the kids have been in advanced classes, you may have to go back and review basics. I don't know why, but in my duel enrollment ENC1101, Dr Ladkani had to go back and teach us parts of speech because half the class had never learned it. They could read Shakespeare just fine, but they didn't know a subject from a predicate. 2) Because the kids are smart, they can get bored easily. You need to worry more about keeping class fun.
Dr Ladkani only gave us two ten page term papers to write for the class. Between that and the essays on our tests, we met our Gordon Rule reqs. Mostly we focused on the literature itself. Maybe you could cut down on the number of papers and focus more on class projects?
And just my two cents: I loved Candid and Mutiny on the Bounty. If you can get those on the curriculum, that would rule.
[ December 08, 2004, 09:30 AM: Message edited by: AvidReader ]
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
*sends Icky love*
I think you know the burnout signs in yourself, and you have more tools at your disposal to avoid it now. And I'd take your class.
AJ
Posted by Zan (Member # 4888) on :
Is "Icky love" kind of like doing the nasty?
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
It would be next August.
-o-
When I took AP Lit, we had one large poetry research project, but most of our other assignments were short. We had short assignments (=50 minute essays, entirely primary--no research) VERY frequently, to prepare us for the essay on the exam.
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
I haven't got much in the way of advice to offer, but I can say that I had an excellent AP Language teacher who taught us everything we needed to know, both for the Lang test... as well as for the Lit test the following year. As far as your situation goes, it sounds like you really want to teach Lang. I say go for it. You obviously love the material, and students aren't stupid - they can sense that.
My real reason for posting was to share an anecdote about comments. I was in a Philosophy class in the spring (it was a forced class, they didn't offer us any choices in Greece). We had 14 people in the class, 6 Philosophy majors (5 male, 1 female) and 8 nons (1 male, 7 female). We did our first paper, which was basically a summary of a Platonic dialogue. Maybe it was a yes/no question, it doesn't really matter. The point is that we had to answer a question in a 3-page paper. We wrote them, turned them in, and then began discussing. The Philosophy majors all had these ideas and took the paper far and had quite good discussions, which made some of us non-majors a little worried about our papers. We got them back a couple days later... of the four A's given out, none of them went to a Philosophy major. Then we started looking at the comments. Everyone else in the class had at least half a page of discussion on their paper, telling strengths, weaknesses, engaging in philosophical discourse; I had three words. "Very fine discussion." Talk about a slight discrepancy in commenting... Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
I'm sorry if my comment sounded discouraging. I got distracted by the tv and when I came back to finish it I'd completely lost the second half of what I was going to say.
I do want to add that one of the things I really miss this year is the discussions about literature in my AP Lit class.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
Good math teachers are so very rare! Good English teachers are comparatively more common. I would choose AP over non-AP, for the same reasons given by others, but if you are already teaching honors math, then I think the loss to your math students would be tremendous. Bigger than the gain to your prospective English students? Only you can decide that.
Then again, changing up your job prevents burnout. A happy and fulfilled Icky is going to be a better teacher than a bored or burned out Icky. So you absolutely must do what is best for you, and that will certainly end up being best for your students as well.
Does the job pay more? Is it considered an advance?
Would you be given more scope to implement your own ideas or choose which books to assign for reading, or what paper topics are assigned, for instance? That might be an attraction to me for teaching English over math.
I always read what teachers wrote on my papers. How strange that anyone wouldn't!
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
Icarus, from a student's perspective I can tell you that it's veeeery, very true that if you hand back a paper one month later nobody cares about it... Sometimes I didn't even care about the grade, I'd take a short look at it and be done. That's mainly because I don't really remember what all the test was about, what were my mistakes, etc.
But there's something you could do, especially for Math classes. Think of this: you may find the same mistake in more than one paper. Instead of writing it in each paper, make a list of them and discuss them in class. Of course, it means you'll have to reserve some time for this purpose, but I think it's worth it. For me, there's nothing more frustrating than seeing a grade and not knowing why I received it, and I'm always happy when the teacher takes the time to talk in class at least about the most common mistakes. Or, if someone gives an original approach to a problem, you could talk about that too, make him/her demonstrate it in front of the class - it kinda makes everything sound less like everybody's wrong and more like "good and bad things in your papers".
I don't know how (or if) this could apply in English classes, I'll let you decide.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
blacwolve, I did not detect anything disparaging in your comment at all.
Anne Kate, good point about the loss to my students. I'm not really thinking about my students, but about myself. But I'm not on the verge of burning out or anything. I simply note that there were always two academic sides to me (more, actually), and I've been neglecting one of them to focus on math. I miss literature, a bit. It would not pay more; it might arguably appear on a resume to be an advancement.
Corwin (and others), as I noted before, the grading issue was an issue from early in my career, over ten years ago, that I feel I have pretty much solved. The only reason I bring it up at all is because of the fear that teaching English might upset my equilibrium . . . on the one hand, I think it would not because I struggled even as a math teacher, and improved there. On the other hand, I can't know for sure until I try it. But your idea of keeping a log of common issues on an assignment and addressing them all together is actually something I do. I also consider fewer variations of partial credit: the work on a problem is either entirely correct, half correct, or entirely incorrect. No more in betweens. Also, I tend to circle mistakes, specifically where something wrong occurs, like 3 • 5 = 8, but not comment on such mistakes, or if I do comment, I don't write complete sentences, but a one or two word reference. I figure motivated kids can use this as a starting point from which to solve their problems. Now this wouldn't quite port into English, but then other things I do in math that consume my time, like allowing students to turn in corrections of their quizzes for extra credit, also would not work in AP Lit, so maybe it would balance. And I expect I would have to learn some new techniques as well.
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
Well my Lit teacher allowed us if we did really poorly on a timed writing to redo it at home, but she would grade really hard since we would have already found out what we did wrong.
Posted by Unmaker (Member # 1641) on :
I've been teaching at IDEA College Preparatory for a year and a half now: it's a charter school in an area of depressed socio-economic levels, 99% Hispanic, high unemployment, etc. I'm following two groups of students through HS: this year, they are freshman and sophomores, about 90 of them all told. For their junior and senior year, every single one of them will be taking AP Language and AP Lit, respectively. Now, most of these are students who would not normally be enrolled in those classes in their local high school, so I've been teaching the 9th and 10th grade Pre-AP classes as tough as I can... 9th is a survey of World Literature from 3000 BCE to about the birth of Christ (ranging from Gilgamesh to the Iliad and the Ramayana, with plenty of Sappho, Socrates and Buddha thrown in for good measure. 10th grade is the second half of this survey course, and we are hitting works like the Inferno, Don Quixote, Candide, Sunjata, the Popol Vuh, Faust, the Metamorphosis, Things Fall Apart,etc.
What I've discovered is that these kids that no one would normally give a chance to simply EAT THIS STUFF UP! They click with it, they analyze it, they write about it and obsess over it... and there is nothing more rewarding to me in my professional life. If you take this job, as I think you should, you are going to see people grow in ways that blow your mind, and in ways that have just GOT to be more rewarding than their figuring out some random equations...
[ December 08, 2004, 03:46 PM: Message edited by: Unmaker ]
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
quote: Good math teachers are so very rare! Good English teachers are comparatively more common.
My experience has been the exact opposite. Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
DB, again, that is so cool.
Icarus, I had exactly the same experience with my grading, and I've come to exactly the same conclusion. For grading and in just about everything else, I've spent the last two years with the inner mantra "it's better to be completed than perfect." Finally a tiny bit of it is starting to come naturally.
For example, it took me an extra three days of agonizing to mail off my Secret Santa gift. Part of it come from being able to do better -- if one can do better, shouldn't one? But that is a never-ending endless loop, and it would have meant that someone would have gone without a treat.
I actually found it physically painful to read your initial post; it felt that familiar.
I think you should keep mulling on it for awhile, but I wouldn't be surprised if a part of you needs feeding that hasn't seen sunlight in a long, long time.
[ December 08, 2004, 04:16 PM: Message edited by: Sara Sasse ]
Posted by Unmaker (Member # 1641) on :
As to grading, I use rubrics that I train my students to understand, and I make them peer-proofread. I am NOT marking the shit out of papers anymore... haven't for three years. They blow all that off anyway. What I do have is a chart on which I map certain skills for each student, and I sit down with them from time to time to discuss their weakness and figure out a gameplan to get them on track.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
I think you should do it, if for no other reason than because you'll rally regret it if you don't.
Re: grading. For those who have done it, would it work to grade all the papers quickly and curtly, and go back to those that need/deserve more comments? Or would that forment unrest among those who didn't get extra?
Posted by Zalmoxis (Member # 2327) on :
To add to what the Unmaker said:
If you have the time and inclination to offer more, then fine.
But what is most useful is:
1. A grade 2. Some general comments about the paper that justify the grade. 3. One or two comments that identify a specific issue they need to work on with some tips on how to do that (or references to stuff already covered, or a suggestion to come speak to you further).
Then you also have to set the expectations that improvement in such-and-such an area will be expected to receive the same (or better) grade on the next paper.
Not every student is going to get it. But especially with writing papers setting out the purpose of your comments and then having mechanisms that show you're serious about those purposes really help.
There's nothing worse than turning in a paper and having the teacher respond to stuff that you didn't even know was a concern/major part of the grade.
Posted by Zalmoxis (Member # 2327) on :
Chris:
I haven't graded many papers. But you kind of have to go through and grade all the papers curtly and quickly anyway before you can actually assign letter grades and know how to focus your response -- that way you get a sense of how well the class understood the assignment and was capable of dealing with it.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Icky,
Do you think your math students would legitimately suffer if you split your focus?
English is a soft, fuzzy discipline and will demand a certain amount of time as you well know to not so much grade as critique the material being presented to you.
By comparison, how much spare time do you have in the evening and how much could you shave off the time you spend on your math students' homework?
Although you might have to insist on all papers being printed before submission and take a speed-reading course.
-Trevor
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
Icky, DB makes a good point about peer proofreading - they also do that in my son's AP English class (he is taking the writing and compostion AP English this year).
Oh, and with reference to what you said about how you used to write extensive (and unread) comments on English papers when you first started teaching - my kids always read every comment their teachers write on their papers, but I don't know how typical or atypical they are as compared to other advanced students.
Posted by Lupus (Member # 6516) on :
You just have to find the balance between writing to much and not writing enough on their papers. If you write to much you will stress yourself out, and get a huge backlog. My suggestion, is to point out the obvious mistakes, and then invite students who want more feedback to see you at a later time. Make it clear that grades are not negotiable, but you will be glad to tell them how to do better in the future.
I have run into similar issues in grading psychology essay tests. Sometimes grades can be subjective, and dependent on style and clarity of thought (as well as tying together research with a thoughtful analysis). It can be tempting to write in detail everywhere they miss stepped, but in general I found it was not worth while. I settled with giving general comments like "you need to tie into the research more." or "this would be a great place to tie in your analysis to the research." rather giving detailed explanations on HOW to word things or tie things together. My general opinion that most people should have gotten that from other classes, but if they are really interested in more help they can come to my office.
As for students fighting over grades, I am fairly rigid in my grading. People can argue until they are blue in the face, but their grade is almost never going to change. I put a lot of thought into what will be right and what will be wrong, so it is unlikely that someone will find something to really contradict the answer. I just shrug and tell them that now they know how to do better next time. Some people can argue just about anything, and if you give into them (when they are not clearly 100% right) then you will never hear the end of their arguing in the future.
Personally, I would prefer to teach English over math…but as someone in the social sciences, I guess that makes sense. You just have to figure out how to balance the level of feedback you give them.
[ December 08, 2004, 06:22 PM: Message edited by: Lupus ]
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
It also depends on the type of correction you apply - grammar and syntax are pretty straight-forward, arguably every bit just as cut-and-dried as a math problem.
Creative content, on the other hand, tends to be more ambiguous.
-Trevor
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
Icky, m'dear - you know best what you need, what makes you content, and lets you still have a home life!
*rooting for Joe*
P.S. I loved comments. I still have high school and college papers with comments. That was the best part!
Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
This is probably pretty trivial considering what everyone else is saying, but as an AP English student myself, I *coveted* the teacher comments...but *never* read them in class. Are you sure the kids are just not reading your comments in class, but merely putting them aside for later perusal?
[ December 09, 2004, 12:24 AM: Message edited by: Leonide ]
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
A little added info: I just discovered today that it was AP English Language that was up for grabs, not Lit. That explains a lot. Still, it's intriguing . . .
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
I had great teachers for both, but lang was much more enjoyable. I hate trying to interpret those stupid poems.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Just a question: Where did you (anyone) learn language as in grammar etc?
Because I'm totally clueless about it and I can't figure out where I missed out or if I just haven't learnt yet.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
Teshi- Same here, I've been in advanced English my whole life, never learned where to put a comma.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Elementary grammar used to be taught primarily in middle school, but a couple of things happened. First of all, there was a school of thought, championed by Noam Chomsky, that believed that the teaching of formal (elementary) grammar was artificial and unnecessary, as children had an inherent sense of grammar "hardwired" into them. A lot of English teachers bought into this because what they were into was literature, and this belief freed them to spend more time analyzing literature and less time teaching formal rules of written communication. Instead, students wrote essays and were graded holistically.
When I took composition theory, I found his ideas attractive because they seemed to describe how I learned to write. I always chafed in classes that asked me to follow rigorous, stultifying, basic patterns intended to teach me how to write. I'm not really talking about grammar here, but about simplistic structures like the five paragraph essays. And while I didn't mind learning formal elementary grammar, the truth is that my speech and writing were pretty close to flawless without studying it. And so it was hard for me to imagine teaching people how to write well using methods that were not what turned me into a good writer.
What I've come to realize since then is that it's easy for English majors to sit around and speculate on how everyone can write correctly if they can just be freed from stultifying rigor, because all of us tended to always be good writers. What we were all suffering from was a failure to think outside of our own realities. And after thinking about this, and seeing the realities of how people learn language firsthand as a parent and secondhand as the spouse of a language arts teacher, I think that we became instinctively correct writers not because it was hardwired in us, but because we tended to be readers, and as readers we absorbed an informal understanding of how to put words together. And I do believe that lots of reading is the best way to learn to write well (along with, of course, lots of writing).
But I think this informal, natural grasp of writing only tends to come to those who were self-motivated to read, and to enjoy reading. I have come to believe that if you will not read enough to internalize grammar, you will benefit from having it formally taught to you, not because you will remember what a gerund is in a decade, but because maybe through formal study you can come to internalize some things. (Though as OSC has often noted, some of the things you internalize may well be incorrect.)
So, to make a long story short, you should have learned a lot of it in middle school, but it has been falling by the wayside.
(Did I correctly understand what it was you were asking?)
[ December 09, 2004, 08:47 PM: Message edited by: Icarus ]
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
As an English teacher, I did buy into Chomsky's (and other's) ideas. I have learned better in the years since, from seeing the accomplishments of Cor's students, who benefit from the grounding she provides in formal grammar and structure.
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
*chuckles*
My 8th grade english teacher threw up her hands in despair at my ability to parse a sentence -
she did allow, however, that I wrote beautifully, spelled beautifully, structured my writing beautifully . . .
and it could only come from reading as much as I did . . .
(grin)
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
quote: (Did I correctly understand what it was you were asking?)
Yes, thank you.
I did learn the basics of grammar all through school. However, none of this has really stuck. Since I'm considering a career as a teacher, and that may include English, I'm wondering if I was going to get taught it again sometime.
I guess I just kind of missed out or didn't pay attention.
I still don't understand this thing called a comma splice... Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
A comma splice is when you join two independent clauses with a comma, this sentence is an example.
You can fix this by placing a conjunction after the comma, or you can fix it some other way.
You can also fix this by using a semicolon; I like semicolons.
And, of course, you can always split it into two sentences. Sometimes simplicity is the best answer.
[ December 09, 2004, 11:44 PM: Message edited by: Icarus ]
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
I wanted to be an editor until I realized that my serious lack of any understanding of the English language pretty much killed that plan.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
This killed my music career. Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
I already killed my music career....
*tries to write a comma splice*
"Peter went to the store, he bought some eggs."
Is that a comma splice?
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Yep.
Fixed:
Peter went to the store, and he bought some eggs.
Peter went to the store; he bought some eggs.
Peter went to the store. He bought some eggs.
(Alternatively, the thoughts could be conveyed in some other way than as two independent clauses. "Peter went to the store and bought some eggs.")
Each variation sets a subtly different tone. The first one sounds pretty normal to me. The second adds a dramatic terseness. Maybe Peter has gone to the store to buy eggs immediately after discovering his wife having torrid sex with another man in their bedroom, and he is in a state of shock, and just trying to go through the motions of ordinary life. The third sentence could have been written by Ernest Hemingway, or by a fourth grader. Maybe Peter will meet a disillusioned but sophisticated divorcé at the store, or maybe he and the store owner will go hunting.
[ December 10, 2004, 12:42 AM: Message edited by: Icarus ]
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Icky, I write pretty well, and some of my stuff was published as a college student....one of my teachers submitted two of my papers to a competition for a student/teacher anthology and both made it in.
A lot of what you have said about how people learn grammar and usage makes a lot of sense, and it also explains why I am able to write pretty well, better than a lot of my classmates, but I have problems with spelling. I picked up a lot of my writing style and tone from reading a ton of different books, but never spent any time on the more formal aspects of writing...not because I was lazy but because the other parts of writing, the creative aspects of it, are so much more interesting than the dry rules of grammar and usage.
Your mini-essay on the first page was excellent, and made a lot more sense than what I had been thinking.
Thanks.
Kwea
[ December 10, 2004, 01:44 AM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
Posted by Audeo (Member # 5130) on :
If you wish to learn grammar, take a foreign language. I personally recommend Latin, which is also a dead language, but I think any declined language would do. You become much more aware of parts of speech, though Latin uses no punction at all, so I have to watch myself to make sure I don't write run-on sentences. I had one that went on for half a page in an essay the other day, but it still doesn't compare to Cicero where two, three pages can by with only one real verb governing a host of relative and subjunctive clauses.
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When I started teaching math, well, yeah, the problem is right or wrong, but there is still the whole issue of partial credit. When I started, I used to look at all of the students' responses for a particular problem, say number four, and decide on an amount of partial credit to assign for wrong answers based on just how wrong the work was. I also marked on the work precisely all the places where a problem was wrong, and often wrote explanations as well. Upon receiving their tests or quizzes back, students typically looked at the score and put them away.![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Nobody complains, so I feel like I have come far enough.![[Dont Know]](graemlins/dontknow.gif)
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Eh, nevermind.
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