Okay, I was reading the euthanasia thread and it brought up a thought and question I've had for a long time.
When I was a kid, I had a dog with epilepsy. We had her spayed shortly after she got loose while she was in heat. Vets in the past had said that she shouldn't have puppies because of the epilepsy...that it might kill her. So we'd been meaning to have her spayed, but didn't get to it, and didn't get to it, until it was a genuine risk she'd gotten pregnant. Sure enough, when they went in to remove her uterus, there were little tiny puppies there.
I remember telling that story to a woman when I got to be an adult (I can't remember now why it came up), and she was so sad. I remember being surprised about that, because truthfully, for whatever reason, it had never occurred to me to be sad about the puppies. This was a number of years ago, and since then, I've gone from being vehemently pro-choice to being vehemently pro-life.
I still wouldn't have a problem spaying a pregnant dog, especially if her life was threatened. Rape doesn't really come into it, obviously. But where are your lines about it? Are you pro-choice or pro-life, and how does that affect your thoughts about this issue?
edited to acknowledge that kat is a MUCH better speller than I am.
[ December 02, 2004, 03:34 PM: Message edited by: jeniwren ]
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
It's fine with me.
[ December 02, 2004, 03:56 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Without wading back into this quagmire...
Pro-choice.
-Trevor
Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
I used to work for a vet, and he did this quite regularly. Oftentimes it was a situation like you've described, where people meant to get around to spaying their dog but never did. A lot of them would request that they not be told if the dog/cat was pregnant - I guess so then they wouldn't feel guilty about destroying pups/kittens.
Unfortunately, in a world where not enough pet owners spay and neuter, it has to happen. Shelters are overfull as it is, and until people step up and take more responsibility unwanted puppies/kittens will be a problem. In my mind, it does no good for a pup/kitten to be born only to spend it's life in a shelter - which will be a loud, lonely, and chaotic life - only to be put down when no one wants them. It's sad that this can be prevented.
space opera
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
Chicken, Trevor.
Human abortion is an acknowledged quagmire. Pet abortion, as far as I know, hasn't come up on Hatrack that I know of. You'd leave it up to your dog to decide? Posted by ludosti (Member # 1772) on :
That's a good question.
I guess the sense of fairness in me says that if a pet owner doesn't get their pet spayed/neutered, any resulting litter should be the owner's responsibility. But I know that it's totally impractical - an owner that isn't responsible enough to spay/neuter their pet (that isn't being used for breeding purposes) probably isn't responsible enough to have a pet (in my opinion), let alone care for it's offspring.
I probably would respond the same way as that woman did. It's sad that puppies-to-be were prevented from being because it wasn't a high enough priority to their owners to have their dog spayed before it went into went into heat. For me, having my pets spayed/neutered is right up there with getting it its shots - it's very important to my pets health and well-being and should be taken care of as soon as possible.
[ December 02, 2004, 03:54 PM: Message edited by: ludosti ]
Posted by Coccinelle (Member # 5832) on :
My sister used to bring home stray cats all the time. (sometimes she took them out of their yards... but that's another story)
My parents finally let her keep one, after she'd advertised all over the neighborhood for it's owner. They took her to be spayed (the cat, not my sister) and found out she was pregnant. My sister wanted the cat to have the kittens and promised to take care of her and get rid of the kittens.
She had two and they were SO cute. My mom decided we needed to keep them.
So now, three cats. They take all three to be spayed. Guess what? They are all three pregnant. (At this point, we're calling the local stray "pimp daddy")
My sister took them all home... she couldn't have kitten abortions.
Thirty three kittens later, we took the four (of course we had to keep one) girls to be spayed. Guess what? Pregnant again.
My sister had them spayed.
Posted by ludosti (Member # 1772) on :
This is why you have your kittens spayed at the earliest opportunity - ideally around 4 months of age (since they tend to go into heat around 5-6 months old) and don't let them outside until they've been spayed (or perhaps not at all, since I'm in favor of cats being indoors).
[ December 02, 2004, 03:57 PM: Message edited by: ludosti ]
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
With dogs, I'm pretty sure I remember that they recommend letting them go into heat at least once before spaying them. We had both our dogs spayed, though with the little dog it was a harder decision. She's so cute. But no, no puppies, thank you. Thankfully she's small enough we had no problem keeping her indoors while she was in heat the one time she was.
So let's say your dog gets out...yes, prevention is important, just as prevention with humans is important. But what if it's too late?
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I think the procedure killed some dogs, and is morally equivalent to killing puppies right after they are born.
How bad is killing puppies right after they're born? Depends on the reasons, I guess. It's not something I would do, so I haven't given it a lot of thought.
Dagonee
Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
I don't think most vets recommend letting your dog have a heat cycle before you spay her. Every single vet I've know has recommended spaying or neutering as soon as possible...which I *think* is around 4 months for both males and females.
Why would they want you to wait a cycle? It's just messy and gross anyway. And there is really no good way to prevent male dogs from getting to a female. We had one client who had a German Shephard crash through their picture window in an attempt to get to their female dog in heat.
space opera
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
I tend to value animals above some humans, so it's tantamount to the same thing for me Jen.
That said, I hate to think I'd shy away from making a difficult choice because of cowardice or squeamishness on my part.
-Trevor
Posted by Architraz Warden (Member # 4285) on :
I'm not certain that I'd call it a standard practice, but among Australian Shepherd breeders it is far from unheard of to put down puppies just after birth if they're a "lethal white" (called such because of their primarily white color, indicating a fairly massive bunch of recessive genes exhibiting themselves). It's normally a practice of breeding merle to merle (merles being the splotchy coated dogs), so anyone who intentionally breeds that way should probably be prepared to put puppies down. All this is done because lethal whites tend to have several times the likelihood of being blind, deaf, epileptic, and a host of other very serious genetic faults. I personally couldn't do it (which is why I probably won't breed Aussies), but I can understand the reasoning behind it. Particularly since I've met many many deaf and blind white Aussies. Does this mean that the destroyed pups couldn't have made good pets? No, but those pups seem to end up in first time pet owners hands, and turned into rescue groups or the pound and are subsequently put down.
On a semi-related note... During my parents' years of fostering Aussies, two of the smallest females went in to be spayed (standard procedure for most rescue groups), and they found out both where pregnant. One was early on and other than losing the pups, there weren't any complications. The second was far into the pregnancy and nearly died as well as the puppies (they were about one to two weeks from being able to try and be saved.) No real point to mentioning that, other than their previous owners should probably be prohibited from ever having pets or children (one dog was found abandoned and very neglected and malnourished. The other was taken from a backyard, equally neglected and malnourished).
Feyd Baron, DoC
Posted by kwsni (Member # 1831) on :
We have lethal whites in horses too, made by breeding an Overo paint horse to another Overo paint horse.
I would not be opposed to aborting a foal if the mare would not be able to carry it to term, but I would be reluctant to keep the mare, especially if I had planned to use her as a broodmare. I'd probly do everything i could to keep the foal, just cause it costs money to breed a mare in the first place.
About smaller pets, I dunno. If i was breeding cats or dogs, I would feel the same way, but I don't know what i'd do if it was just my pet.
Ni!
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
I agree with everything Feyd says. The lethal white also happens in shelties and any breed with blue merle. Though the amount of "leathal" is debatable, depending on the breed. In most breeds it can produce dogs that are simultaneously deaf and blind. However in some breeds it doesn't act quite as severely. If you do the breeding you need to be prepared to take responsibility for your choices. Either be prepared to keep all deaf and/or blind dogs yourself or, be prepared to put them down when they are born. Its more humane then letting them go to an inexperienced owner. Though fortunately in Cardigan Corgis, we don't have many, and the worst recorded problem is deafness without blindness.
I would also like to point out that while it isn't unheard of, the number of "oops" litters that occur among responsible breeders is very low. I have had an unspayed female and an unnuetered male toegether for over 3 years, and it is pretty easy to tell when she is coming into season and need to be separated. I also tend to send my male out to board during the most fertile part of her season for my own sanity. It isn't that I mind keeping them separated it is that the hormones that she is emmitting are so strong that he basically loses his mind and is absolutely miserable.
AJ
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Oh yeah, and the all white gene can occur in Boxers too. I don't think blindness occurs as much there eitehr but deafness does. People are paying arms and legs for the rare "white boxer" when ethical breeders have a code of ethics, that I believe prevents them from actually making any sort of profit off of a white boxer due to the potential health problems. So the people paying these huge dollars for their "Designer dogs" are getting scammed by unscrupulous puppy mill types.
AJ
(bookwyrm already said this about the white boxers whoops.)
[ December 02, 2004, 05:36 PM: Message edited by: BannaOj ]
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
I don't know, I think if you are prepared to take responsibility for the consequences of the breeding it is legitimate. I think if you feel that the responsible thing to do is to put the puppy down then that is what you should do. I don't know if I actually *could* if I had the issue arise. But the issue is taking responsibility for the consequences.
AJ
Posted by Architraz Warden (Member # 4285) on :
Just a brief clarification on what I was saying about Aussies (and Shelties, and Borders). The puppies that are put down are not put down because they wouldn't make a good show dog, but because they will have serious health issues. Aussies tend to come in three catagories: Show dogs, pet quality, and leathal whites. While it's tough to find the exact line between them, there are major differences (particularly in the latter two). I really don't like condoning the idea of killing or aborting puppies, but there are situations where any GOOD breeder would do it.
Feyd Baron, DoC
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
I also think there is a difference betweeen "show quality" "pet quality" and "defective". A breeder should guarantee even a "pet quality dog" to be free of all inheritable defects to the best of their knowledge. A whitlie dog is *not* free of inheritable defects. White dogs of these breeds frequently have skin cancer, eye problems, and additional health problems far sooner in their lifespan than a "normal" dog of the breed.
AJ (duh and this time Feyd beat me to it!)
[ December 02, 2004, 05:42 PM: Message edited by: BannaOj ]
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
To clarify: Putting down an otherwise sound dog because it is "pet quality" is I believe horrendous. However, for breeders of American Staffordshire terriers and other breeds that require extremely careful raising and training, it *may* be the more ethical thing to do. I couldn't ever do it myself, but I can concieve of a case where it would be more ethical to put a pet quality dog down then let it fall into unethical hands. However I think it would be better, to be prepared to raise the entire litter yourself.
AJ
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
The leathal white in overo horses almost always results in the foal dying within two or three days of birth (I read about a case where it didn't though). Horses also have something resembling the dog problem where they are deaf or blind, it's when a pinto pattern's white cover's one or both ears.
The problem with shelties (and the rest, just speaking the breed I've worked with the most) is less often fatal, but does often bring deafness and blindness, though I know a dog that came through sheltie rescue very young, deaf double merle (oooh that's the term I've been trying to remember) that has lived a pretty full life, she's good at agility, and knows about 10 signs for different things. The only issue they've really had has been the dog barks, but doesn't know this and they have no way of telling her to be quiet.
I am by no means reccomending breeding two merles to each other, but some of the puppies can live full lives.
I don't know what I would do if I were sending a pet in for a spay and she were pregnant, it's never happened to me since all of our pets were neutered or spayed very young, and never allowed outside without us watching them until then.
Posted by Architraz Warden (Member # 4285) on :
Breyer, that's something along the lines of what I was saying earlier. More often than not it isn't that a lethal white couldn't live a fairly long life (I'm betting shorter than the average of the breed, but still many years) it's that the potential number of these dogs vastly outweighs the number of people willing to take responsibility. This means that more often than not these dogs would end up living their lives abandoned, neglected, or in pounds. It also increases the chance that they could breed (accidentally or intentionally) which is just an all-around bad idea. Canine gene pools are precarious enough without breeding in known negative traits.
Look up lethal white rescue groups, and look at the often huge numbers of dogs they're trying to place. Now imagine adding into that all the dogs that are current destroyed at birth. I can't imagine that would produce a better situation for people or dogs.
Feyd Baron, DoC
EDIT: for a typo or two
[ December 02, 2004, 06:12 PM: Message edited by: Architraz Warden ]
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
Sorry to say what you already had feyed. I guess since both pets my family has gotten since I was old enough to have any say have been from either shelters or pure bred rescue, and we have fostered two shelties, plus transported numerous others and helped with other rescue situations, I overestimate what the general population is willing to do.
Posted by Architraz Warden (Member # 4285) on :
All three of the family dogs I've had around me have all been from professional breeders, and I continue to associate with them these days. But during my middle and highschool years, my parents fostered 14 Aussies in various states of disrepair. Only one came from a home who you could tell truly loved the dog, but didn't have the capabilities to handle him (thing 60 pound, hyperactive goofball, and you'll get the impression). The rest of them were taken forceably from people, or were found in shelters or on the side of the roads. Having heard those and other stories, the shock of what the general public is capable of has warn off. (Examples, one dog was hit by a car as a puppy shortly before a move, and went to a neighbors vet clinic to be operated on. He was never picked up, and no contact information was forthcoming. He spent 18 of the first 24 months of his life in a kennel become some idiot was irresponsible on several accounts (geting hit by a car is understandable, but leaving the dog in a kennel and stiffing the vet for the bill wasn't. Several of the dogs you just tell had been beaten or kicked, and were simply terrified of human beings. It took months for them to adopt the typical aussie traits of trusting humans and performing their voluntary capacities as foot-warmers and pillows. Another person has an accidental litter of puppies between and Aussie and Border Collie. They sold off the puppies that could pass as Borders, and left the two month old Aussies in the backyard when they moved. A neighbor happened to be slightly suspicious of them before and checked in time to save them.) Keep in mind I'm horribly biased. Even to the point of not-so-secretly being disappointed that the man who was shooting puppies didn't die when one shot him.
Feyd Baron, DoC
Posted by RackhamsRazor (Member # 5254) on :
I've worked at a veterinary office for years now and one fairly common thing is "kitty abortions." Now on one hand, doing this will reduce the already too large of a population of cats. However, this is at the cost of killing innocent little kittens. Personally, I always recommend getting your animal spayed/neutered ASAP. One, it is better health-wise for those who are not breeding and two, it keeps away those unwanted pregnacies.
This past summer the doctor had to spay two cats that looked like they were very far along (one maybe a week or two and the other looked like she could give birth in the next few days). One of the girls there was very upset since they were so close to term and having a cat that had been saved from an abortion she thought that it would be a good idea to save the kittens and try to raise them ourselves (the technicians). Unfortunately, it turned out to be a very bad thing that we tried to do. As we got the kittens we realized that she wasnt as far along as we expected (maybe since there were 10 kittens in her) but since we had already started we continued. We spent over and hour rubbing the kittens, keeping them warm and trying to get them to breathe. It was sad, we initially saved 6 of the 10. They were breathing, but struggling. When it was all said and done we estimated that the cat was probably at least 10 days from being due. By the end of the week all the kittens had died because they just werent developed well enough. It was sad. We vowed not to try and do that again because it just wasnt worth it. So, I guess what I am trying to say here is get your pets spayed/neutered as soon as you can.
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