quote:

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Hope

Hope is a state of mind, not of the world . . . Either we have hope or we don't; it is a dimension of the soul, and it's not essentially dependent on some particular observation of the world or estimate of the situation.

Hope is not prognostication. It is an orientation of the spirit, and orientation of the heart; it transcends the world that is immediately experienced, and is anchored somewhere beyond its horizons . . .

Hope, in this deep and powerful sense, is not the same as joy that things are going well, or willingness to invest in enterprises that are obviously heading for success, but rather an ability to work for something because it is good, not just because it stands a chance to succeed. The more unpropitious the situation in which we demonstrate hope, the deeper the hope is.

Hope is definitely not the same thing as optimism. It is not the conviction that something will turn out well, but the certainty that something makes sense, regardless of how it turns out.

Vaclav Havel

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quote:

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<Morpheus, the lord of dreams, challenges a hell demon in a duel>

Demon: I am a dire wolf, prey-stalking, lethal prowler.

Morpheus: I am a hunter, horse-mounted, wolf-stabbing.

Demon: I am a horsefly, horse-stinging, hunter-throwing.

Morpheus: I am a spider, fly-consuming, eight legged.

Demon: I am a snake, spider-devouring, posion-toothed.

Morpheus: I am an ox, snake-crushing, heavy footed.

Demon: I am an anthrax, butcher, bacterium, warm-life destroying.

Morpheus: I am a world, space-floating, life nurturing.

Demon: I am a nova, all-exploding... planet-cremating.

Morpheus: I am the Universe -- all things encompassing, all life embracing.

Demon: I am Anti-Life, the Beast of Judgement. I am the dark at the end of everything. The end of universes, gods, worlds... of everything. Sss. And what will you be then, Dreamlord?

Morpheus: I am hope.

---

 

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Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
 
mmmmm.. sounds like the duel between Sauron and Finrod...
 

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Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
 
Tatiana, I like that quote...
 

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Posted by Troubadour (Member # 83) on :
 
Hang in there, dude - it gets better...
 

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Posted by Eduardo_Sauron (Member # 5827) on :
 
(((Telp)))

Telp...sometimes there seems to be no light, nor god or hope. Only blackness and despair. But things get better. You'll see. You are one of the most compassionate and kind-hearted persons I know, and you'll soon be on track again.

Hang in there, man!


 

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Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
 
More evidence of our decay...

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/11/22/eveningnews/main657065.shtml

*sigh*
I'm reminded of the destruction of all the libraries of the Roman Empire at the hands of the religious fanatics...bringing the Dark Ages. I don't want to insult anyone of faith...but this kind of self destructive agenda these religious fanatics have is not good...all in the name to preserve their own mental peace by not having what they were raised with questioned.
 

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Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
 
sorry again for being such a downer...
I'll be back to happy mode again soon.

*hugs*
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 
Man, I hate reporting on legal issues. I wish they'd included the entire contents of the sticker. I'd love to know what theory they're suing under.

Dagonee
 

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Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
 
(((Telperion))))

I like the quote, too. Print it out and post it somewhere you can see, okay?

(((Tatiana))))
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
Wow, that site just showed it's true agenda in it's article about this issue..it claims that eveolution is a religion , not actual science.

Talk about ignorant.

Kwea
 

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Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
What's so harmful about open-minded questioning of science, again?

If these parents really want their textbooks to be updated with the latest findings; if they really want an open examination of the scientific data that makes up the current ToE; if they really want their children to learn the scientific principles behind evolution and why it matters, God bless 'em, and all that they do.

We could use more like them.

I understand the fear that this is NOT at all what the parents want. I understand that there is a worry that the science curriculum in these schools will become a venue for Chick-sci. This is not in anyone's best interests.

But openly questioning the theories of evolution IS in everyone's best interest. The lifeblood of science is questioning, hypothesizing, re-examining. . .
 

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Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
 
I don't want to go to work anymore.
 

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Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
 
Is it the holidays, which focus so much on family time (which is often dysfunctional) what has everyone so blue?

((((hugs to everyone who needs one))))

Farmgirl
 

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Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
 
What has me blue are some of the same things as Telp and the fact that I really, really, really hate my job.
 

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Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
 
It's so hard to cheer people up who aren't here.

Hang in there everyone...


 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 
I've got to say, I think they're going to get hammered in court, and I think they should be.

Although I would have voted against the sticker and instead used textbooks that explain carefully the scientific method and the real meaning of "theory."

One thing bothers me - in an article linked from the page BookWyrm linked, the reporter wrote:

quote:

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But Manely argues that the sticker, although it makes no mention of God or religion, is a disclaimer for the only accepted scientific explanation of the origin of life.

"Evolution is the underpinning of all life sciences. It's what the foundation of science is based upon," Manely said. Stating that evolution is only a theory is a covert way of prompting students to discuss the existence of God, he argued, and to proselytize religious theories of the origins of humankind.

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The summary at the top of the quotation is actually very misleading - evolution does not explain the "origin of life," nor does it claim to. And the actual words of the speaker don't make that claim either.

The problem is heightened when only the summary sentence is quoted, as the religious site did.

Dagonee
 

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Posted by Phanto (Member # 5897) on :
 
Depression is easy at holy-day time for many reasons. Up there are:

a) Stress
b) Contrast of personal status in life with others
c) Feeling of isolation
d) Et cetra.
 

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Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
 
I'll add my two bits of cheer-upness to the fray.

As for the rest - we come, we go. So says Ozymandias.

And while I don't object to questioning scientific theory, I find the religious counterpart to be less than functional.

Unless, of course, I get to add my Creation theory involving the Great Pumpkin.

-Trevor
 

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Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
 
Scott R -- except for a few small problems.

1) while there is a Theory of Evolution, it is not just a theory. Accompanying the theory is the fact of evolution. We have seen it happen (understanding that all evolution is is the change of the genetics of organisms over time) -- speciation is an observed phenomenon, which puts it on the same level as gravity (for which there is a fact as well as theory as well -- we know gravity occurs, and we have theories to explain how it occurs).

2) clearly attempting to imply negligible proof by using the word theory colloquially. Evolutionary Theory is a scientific theory. It is not a theory as most people mean it. A scientific theory (particularly one with as huge a set of evidence as evolution) is one that is backed up by large amounts of evidence, such that it is considered a highly plausible explanation for a phenomenon, nearly the opposite of what is implied by the colloquial use of theory.

3) Not applying this same standard to other parts of the book. Everything in that book is either a scientific theory or worse, except for the parts where it describes physical phemonenon, such as a ball falling, or that a species can change into another species. Singling evolution out for special treatment implies some special standing on the part of the rest of the book which does not exist. Nearly everything put forth in that book is on equal or lesser standing than the theory of evolution.

4) Maybe one in a million high schoolers has the ability to even begin to formulate a possibly meaningful scientific objection to evolutionary theory as a whole. The purpose of science class in high school is not to try to get students to question, for instance, the Theories of Relativity -- because that's far too high a goal. Their physics teacher doesn't understand enough to scientifically question the theories of relativity, almost certainly. Similarly, high school students are not equipped to scientifically question the theory of evolution. They can disbelieve it, sure, nothing wrong with that, but a sticker telling them to question it undermines their learning of it. Because that's what they're there to do, memorize what biologists say the theory of evolution, same as they're there to memorize what physicists say about the theory of gravitation. For things such as this, school science classes are not about questioning, they're about learning generally accepted theory, and learning how to perform the basic procedures of science (for instance in AP Biology, where I added new, inherited genetic material to a bacteria).

These are just some of the problems with the parents insisting on that sticker.
 

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Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
 
Telpy. Sorry that I don't have anything better to offer than a kiss, but hey...a kiss from space opera is a good thing!

space opera
 

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Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
 
Nice post, Fugu.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the groups that are advocating for the sticker aren't doing so because they want to make sure science is objective--an extremely laudable goal. They are making sure the sticker is on the book so students won't have a reason to be turned away from believing in 'religion'.
 

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Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
 
From the article

quote:

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While it would be very encouraging to see the sticker stick in this important court case, in the long run, the battle is really much bigger than fighting school boards and organizations like the ACLU. This battle between worldviews (evolution vs. six-day creation account) is really about seeing our society return back to biblical authority, beginning with the church.

That’s why we spend so much energy at AiG to equip the church to restore biblical authority beginning with Genesis. Then and only then will change stick permanently.

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 
Two important things to remember:

1.) There's no equal protection clause for scientific theories. It is perfectly within the power of the state to treat one in a different fashion than the other.

2.) This is a democracy. It means elected representatives decide how resources are allocated. The elected representatives respond to the will of the people. And, except in a very few cases, the motivation of people advocating a policy are not the issue.

So while it's perfectly fine to say the sticker is a bad idea, it's utterly ridiculous to go to court to get the sticker removed.

Dagonee
 

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Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
 
I agree about the going to court to get the sticker removed. My argument was more toward that the sticker should be removed.
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 
Yeah, but I agree with you about the sticker. What fun is that?
 

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Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
 
They're agreeing - and the Devil is complaining about the thermostat.

-Trevor
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 
Nah, we agree all time. "All the time" being a colloquialism meaning "often," not the literal every second of every day.

Dagonee
 

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Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
 
But . . . but . . . you mean we don't march in lockstep?!

*sobs*

You've destroyed the core of my being, Dag!
 

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Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
 
It's really silly for religions to try and pretend evolution isn't fact. The Catholic church tried to pretend the Earth didn't rotate around the sun, too, and that Jupiter didn't have moons, and so on. They tried to oppose the Copernican theory of the solar system in the exact same way that fundamentalist protestant Christians are now trying to oppose Darwin's theory of descent with natural selection.

This is not a very successful strategy! The truth is the truth, and it wins in the end by reason of being true! As the Catholic church eventually realized, you only are shooting yourself in the foot if you try to oppose it. It took them centuries to recant, but they eventually did, yay! Better late than never. And now they don't try to oppose evolutionary theory. They seem to have learned that lesson, which is cool.

Brigham Young said "everything true is part of our religion". I love Brigham Young! Thank goodness the LDS don't have any sort of anti-science, anti-intellectual, anti-knowledge worldview. The church teaches us to learn as much as we possibly can about everything there is. The church is very in favor of seeking the truth about God's creation by any and all methods we have available to us. How can that not bring us closer to God? There is no need to fear the truth, ever.
 

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Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
 
But if Dagonee is right, the state can pretty much force schools to teach whatever it says they should teach. In that case, truth then becomes what the state says it is.

To my mind, this is why every liberal should be behind some kind of equatable system of school vouchers that completely pays for schools, yet gives parents the ability to choose who teaches what to their children.

Public schools that attempt to teach the same curriculum to many disparate groups of people are all going to suck for someone, and let's face it, if ma and pa Joad are telling the kids that all that high falutin' learnin' stuff is just ivory tower propaganda, do you really think some teacher at school is going to convince a child any differently? Do we really want to say that the state knows better what to teach our children than we do?
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 
Preach it, brother!
 

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Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
 
In theory, the State is comprised of our fellow citizens, although I apologize for the inherent gender selection in my word choice.

And I have to confess a certain comfort in the notion we have a standard of public education, although for people who seriously disagree with the State's educational view, home-schooling and alternative educational options are always available.

Although you tend to run into the problem of State funding particular religious-intensive schools which other people either object to or demand equal time, further straining the budget.

It would seem that educational standards prepared by the State appeals to the lowest common denominator for offensive materials.

-Trevor
 

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Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
 
Hope you are doing better, Telp.
 

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Posted by Cashew (Member # 6023) on :
 
I haven't been on this forum long enough to say that I know you Telp (inappropriate familiarity??), but what I've seen I like. Be assured, it does get better, and then it gets worse, and then it gets better. I believe we signed up for the whole package when we came here, and it's all part of what makes life worthwhile. Overriding all the rubbish in our lives is who we are, the underlying goodness of just being, or trying to be, good people, in the face of hassles and problems and hurts. Just hang in there. And hey, you're a Tolkien fan. That's gotta be worth hanging on for the ride.

[ November 25, 2004, 06:50 PM: Message edited by: Cashew ]
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
On the topic of keeping an open mind:

quote:

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Scepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and it is shameful to surrender it too soon or to the first comer: there is nobility in preserving it cooly and proudly through long youth, until at last, in the ripeness of instinct and discretion, it can be safely excanged for fidelity and happiness

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-- George Santayana, [i]Scepticism and Animal Faith[i], IX
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
Telp, about our ruining the planet....

On a more hopeful note, I was thinking the other day about how a generation ago people in general were not thinking much about the environment. I think that we are doing better. Efforts are being made to educate people--especially children--on the damage done to the planet and what we can do about it. It seems that this rising generation more than any other is prepared to be good custodians of the earth and hopefully the trend will continue.

There is still so much desperation an poverty out there though, in other countries. Their condition is so desperate that thinking past today's meal seems irrelevant. That is a problem with no easy solution.

But I do think things are getting better that way.
 

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Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
 
*is not sure why the "day" thing is stil such an issue since she remembers being told time and again that the original greek word that was interpreted to mean day actually means an indetiminate period of time . . . *

*likes the idea of a God that has such a streak of humor and fun, that she/he played for a LOOOOOOONNNNGGGGGG time, tinkering with the infinite variety found in our universe - that in fact, the tinkering continues, along with the fun . . . and not fun in a bad way, but with a little humor . . . and enjoyment and appreciation and delight . . . . *
 

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Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
 

quote:

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Brigham Young said "everything true is part of our religion".

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I like that. All religions should use that phrase. We'd be a happier world with that...and more advanced too!
 

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Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
Who gets to decide what's 'true,' though?



[ November 30, 2004, 07:46 AM: Message edited by: Scott R ]
 

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Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
 
I suggest the religious people decide it for themselves, at least with respect to their personal beliefs, after examining all the evidence with an open mind.

Its that last part that many have problems with.
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
You don't decide what's true. Truth is.

You just get to decide what you believe.
 

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Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
 
I tend to agree with you, but take what I wrote as a way of including both perspectives, and in your case as a shorthand for belief in what is true.
 

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Posted by kyrie (Member # 6415) on :
 
(((((telperion)))) i really hope you start to feel better. I know it can be hard though.
Im not sure what happend to the hug thread, but if I could find it I would give you a big hug on it . Fluff threads have there uses too after all
 

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Posted by lem (Member # 6914) on :
 
Telperion,

How can you still feel blue after reading

quote:

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Evolution is a religious system (without God) that allows man to live according to his rules, not his Creator’s rules.

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quote:

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his battle between worldviews (evolution vs. six-day creation account) is really about seeing our society return back to biblical authority, beginning with the church.

That’s why we spend so much energy at AiG to equip the church to restore biblical authority beginning with Genesis. Then and only then will change stick permanently.

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The abovve quote seems very creepy and scarey.
 

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Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
 

quote:

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You don't decide what's true. Truth is.

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