quote:I got this at the end of 9/11; ANd I must say that this is a fascinating qoute. Anyone want to talk about it?
It is not a matter of if the war is not is not real or if it is, victory is not possible because the war is not meant to be won but to be continuous. A Hierarchical society is only possible based on the basis of poverty and ignorance. This new version is the past and no different past could ever have existed, in principle the war effort is planned to keep society at the brink of starvation the war is waged by the ruling group against its own subjects and its object is not the victory over either Eurasia or East Asia but to keep the very structure of society intact.
quote:
"Power is not a means, it is an end. One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power."
"War is a way of shattering to pieces, or pouring into the stratosphere, or sinking in the depths of the sea, materials which might otherwise be used to make the masses too comfortable, and hence, in the long run, too intelligent."
quote:
Then they will play video games and go on Atkins like the rest of us.
quote:Of course not, I never meant to be taken for one who for whipping the slaves until morale improves, or killing until everyone loves us.
You can't shoot everyone who hates America or Americans. If they are actively fighting us, then sure, go get 'em. But speaking out (including screaming in the streets)is actually ONE of the democratic principles we're supposedly sharing with these countries.
quote:During that entire period we were at war with the native americans. Not always an active war, but a constant push and shove, often legal, often violent, but the 'brutal savage' was always a threat until the very end of the 1800's.
That's just plain not true. Historically, America has spent a lot more time NOT at war than fighting. From the end of the Revolution to World War I, there are only a three or four brief periods where we were in a real state of war against someone other than ourselves, each lasting only a matter of years. Between those are decades of peace and/or isolationism with no real enemy.
quote:Yes, now we know it was because we were wrong - there were no WMDs and was no immediate threat. And now it is not just France, Germany, and Russia leaving the coaltion, but everyone aside from ourselves...
Why France, Germany and Russia all were so adamant against us. Now of course we know.
quote:I don't think the native Americans could be considered an enemy or a real threat for the U.S., in the eyes of Americans of the time. I suspect they were viewed more as a nuisance, except perhaps by those on the frontier itself.
And its not so much about being actively at war, as it is having an enemy or threat to worry about. For that entire period the Natives were that threat.
quote:Some of us found something interesting to discuss in your post. If you have something to add to the discussion, please do. But please do so without trying to "manipulate." Basically, it doesn't really work here. We'll discuss things if we find them interesting, or we won't if we don't.
It's nice to see how I can manipulate people with quotes.
quote:--Cat's Cradle , Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
The highest form of treason," said Minton, "is to say that Americans aren't loved wherever they go, whatever they do.Claire tried to make the point that American foreign policy should recognize hate rather than imagine love."
"I guess Americans are hated a lot of places."
"People are hated a lot of places. Claire pointed out in her letter that Americans, in being hated, were simply paying the normal penalty for being people, and that they were foolish to think they should somehow be exempted from that penalty."
quote:In a way as far as history reveals this is indeed true. Even in America "the land of the free" it is a Hierarchical society, because it is a class society, and there is no denying it. In America, you have the upper class; the wealthy and influencial. The middle class who are the factory owners, engineers, small company owners, entrepeneurs, scientists, bankers, etc. And finally the lower class; the soldiers, the poor, the unemployed, the workers the proleteriat. This is the society of America. The rich get richer as the poor get poorer, only the middle class has the ability to have a decent living while the lower class usually only through back breaking labour and enlisting for the army in order to gain a half decent living, but they are defending a social structure that abuses those who fight for them. This is happening now, and it has happened anywhere and everywhere in recorded history.
A Hierarchical society is only possible based on the basis of poverty and ignorance
quote:Oh well, it is not easy to be a prophet. Comrade Orwell does not seem to have considered the possibilities of McDonalds in this direction.
War is a way of shattering to pieces, or pouring into the stratosphere, or sinking in the depths of the sea, materials which might otherwise be used to make the masses too comfortable, and hence, in the long run, too intelligent.
quote:Just to let you know I wrote a whole thesis on that topic. I got a good grade as well. So, I gree with you there.
I think warfare is what's brought us here today. Many of humanity's inventions and creations have been created and circulated out of competition. Just think about what's been made from warfare, it goes from a sharpened stick to nuclear power to Tang. The most ingenious and innovative tribe or clan wins, and thus eliminates or overpowers the simple one. If you really think about it, it's like technological Darwinism.
Nowadays the competition also takes part in the private sector, as in corporations, and they're competing for your money, not land. But the concept is the same. So, since competition and warfare is what's brought us here (both as in a species and as a nation), the need to prolong it is also there. It's like a... whaddya call it? A meme?
Of course, I may just be talking out of my ass here, and any one of you intelligent people could produce a paper at any time refuting everything I just said.
quote:What makes a class society, as I understand it, is an inability to move between classes. Every society has different classes because people are different. Some are born poor, some rich, some with advantage, some with severe disadvantage, HOWEVER, in America it is perfectly legal to move between classes.
Even in America "the land of the free" it is a Hierarchical society, because it is a class society, and there is no denying it.
quote:To me this seems like an oxymoron. As I researched Class Society for this thread, I realized that there are different takes on class system. I agree that every society has a class system. There are workers, property owners, poverty, middle class, slaves (in some societies), et cetera. Since every society has classes, calling America a class society seems...pointless.
a feature of Americain class society is the ability to go up a rank
quote:I don't see the connection. Many people who do manual labor are wealthy, and many people who have service jobs are poor.
The only time that we have no lower class is when all of our manual labour is automated
quote:I am sorry; I see no relationship between hard work and winning a lottery. Condi Rice worked hard and moved up her class. It was not luck; it was not a shot in the dark.
people who usually go up a rank have to work very hard to reach it, win a lottery.
quote:Are you assuming that this ignorance is willfully perpetrated? There is a lot of education out there to lift people up.
So, a class/Hierarchical society however is still based on the concept of ignorance and poverty that when interpreted can be American society.
quote:Who do we intentionally keep poor? Poor people can't go to the libraries? I was raised poor, and thanks to the self sacrifice on a parent’s part, we raised above that. I agree that there may be institutional problems (like poor schools) that hold people back, but when people break free from that, we as a society are impressed and want to help more people move up.
So by keeping people poor, we remove their ability to become properly educated politically.
quote:Our unemployment seems pretty good to me, and we have great production. Agriculture Labor may decline (which may have dire consequences in the future), but other types of jobs are created. It does suck for someone in the industry, but as a society, it works quite well.
It is a feature of a mechanized society that productivity increases as labor needed declines.
quote:What system is better? Every system has flaws. I am not sure what you are developing with this argument, please elaborate.
One of the fundamental flaws of the basic economic theory of capitalism is the assumptions that needs are 'for all practical purposes' infinite.
quote:You get service related jobs. The majority of our employment is not dependent on "needs-labor." Teachers, psychologists, programmers, anything computer related, et cetera, are all professions that are not based on food and shelter. Incidentally, it is generally the agricultural societies that have more of a class problem.
What happens when ten percent of the population can meet all the material needs of the entire population. What do you do with the rest of the population?
code:The best solution I can think of is to put as much money as possible into the educational system, so that the bulk of people graduating can go into the sciences and engineering professions. Infact that may be the only convenient/moral solution otherwise you will have about 5,000,000,000 people with no jobs (I believe my math is wrong if I apply this to a global scale).What happens when ten percent of the population can meet all the material needs of the entire population.
quote:Of course there is an economic incentive for "all societies everywhere" to exploit the middle classes technical expertise and the poor class’s labor; however, there is a distinct difference on how the upper class achieves this thru-out history.
The only way to do that is to keep the lower class where they are and all societies everywhere do it throughout all of history, and you are naive to think otherwise.
quote:The Orwellian nightmare involves a socialist style government. Capitalism tends to disagree with socialism and the two must not be confused. I am very uneasy about the amount of Government Control the Patriot Act gives the federal government, but the root of this control is not the free-market philosophy.
in principle the war effort is planned to keep society at the brink of starvation the war is waged by the ruling group against its own subjects