Yanno, here of lates, Hatrack just isn't much fun.
The infighting is just outrageous and no one can make a statement on any serious subjects without getting basically assaulted. Let's not say that it's 100% of the time, but maybe 95% of the time.
I, myself, have gotten deeper into a fight here than I ever should have allowed myself and said some things that I probably shouldn't have. I don't believe that they were wrong to say, but just that I should have politely kept them to myself.
Basically, and this may get me banned for saying it, but the asshole quotient around here has just gotten far, far too big. It's not that there are more of them around here, it's just that the regular ones (which I'm probably a part of) have become extremely vitriolic of lates.
There's too much headhunting going on and honestly, too many sore losers from the election that are turning on their friends and associates rather than turning an eye on themselves.
I've seen it said again and again that the majority is filled with idiots, that those with any Christian views are out to destroy this country, that voting one way or the other is about endorsing some facist scheme.
Folks, in the real world, outside of this forum, it's not like that. People voted based on what their own hopes and aspirations were, as well as their beliefs.
In a race with only two real candidates to choose from, you can't automatically assume someone is an idiot because they chose the other candidate rather than the one you suppported. Their reasoning may very well be as valid in their life as your choice was to you.
But basically, the assholes doing it now, the loudest and most venomous, are the same assholes saying the same things they always have. They browbeat their selected opponents and batter them to the ground in an attempt to destroy the beliefs and feelings that their victim holds dear. And then, after the assault is finished, they act surprised when their vanquished foe walks to the election booth and casts their vote the same way they were going to before.
Look, some around here are going to call you an idiot for how you voted. And if they don't get you on that, they'll wait until you venture into one of the "serious" threads and slam you when you post your opinion.
They've got the hammer and the nails, and sooner or later they will catch you carrying the wood that they can crucify you with.
Basically, I'm tired of it, and tired of wading in there with them and then seeing myself become a bit more like them each and every time.
Maybe if I can back off a bit, I won't become an 24/7 asshole, but revert back to just being an occasional one.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
It doesn't bother much because I don't let it, at least not anymore. Try not to let it get to you. No matter what anyone on an internet forum says to me or about me they can't take away who I am, they can't come into my home and take away my husband and my kids and all the things that I've been blessed with. They just don't have that power, and so, they can't really hurt me. That's an attitude I had to develop over time - once upon a time I did let the opinions of other people who don't really know me hurt me. No longer - no one can affect what really matters in my life.
I may still get upset over comments, and get my feelings hurt occasionally, but it all stops when I turn off the computer and play with my kids. I don't carry it with me anymore, and I'm much happier because of it.
Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
Bye Sopwith...
*watches as dear friends and board members drop off one by one*
You'll definitely be missed. I hope you decide to stay, even if partially. Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
Well said Belle.
I've had to really screen my Hatrack/Internet reading and my very conversation subjects in the last few months simply because I cringe at the contention and bad feelings that are abroad.
Hatrack has challenged me and my decisions and forced me to search stuff out and make sure I want to stand where I'm standing. (The constructive part of Hatrack.) But I agree that it has gotten vicious in the last couple days.
I hope you stay around Sopwith.
Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
I don't think many here think folks are idiots for how they voted. Many (including myself) might think you are wrong, but it is important to distinguish calling someone wrong and calling someone an idiot. One attacks a belief, whereas one attacks the person itself.
I think people ARE passionate about their views, but it is like that thread on the "smart" vs. the "wise". I think most people fit into the definition of wise given there - they believe they have an important piece of wisdom that you do not and are out to help you get it. The problem is that, in doing so, they might come across as being in the opposite category. It often appears, when someone is advocating the idea that you are wrong, that that person is just out to "nail you to the cross." But I don't think that is it at all. I think the goal is simply to bring their point across in a way that hasn't worked so far.
Hatrack has always had this problem as far as I've seen - as well as most other places of discussion. It's not something that can be avoided if you are going to discuss serious issues, and since it is important to discuss serious issues, I think it must be something that should be worked around.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Bye, Sopwith. I've enjoyed having you here.
I won't try to convince you to stay, because I'm not sure that you aren't 100% correct in what you said. Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
I'm with ya, Sopwith. It's why I haven't been here in a weeks. I only came back to post the Episode III trailer.
I miss some people that I didn't ever really connect with outside of Hatrack, and that's sad. In a cost/benefit analysis, though Hatrack is mostly no longer worth it for me either. I've taken it out of my favorites list, because coming here has only served to make me angry or sad, for longer than I care to remember.
YOu were one of the people I wondered about. I thought, "I never really got to know Sopwith very well, and it's a shame because i'm sure he would have been interesting." Opportunities lost, se la vie.
I wish you well. Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
C'mon, Kat, you know you want to.
Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
Hi, Olivia.
(((Sopwith)))
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
I hope you don't leave altogether.
I've certainly seen what you're talking about. But, honestly, not today or yesterday. I've been pretty impressed with the level of discourse lately, with "liberals" trying to take an honest look at how they've allowed themselves to be (erroneously) defined as anti-Christian and what they need to do to no longer be seen as out of touch with the heartland and with Christian values, and with conservatives being gracious in victory. I have seen some excesses on the liberal side caused simply by, in my opinion, hurt, and I have seen one or possibly two extremely insulting individuals on the conservative side. But a handful of individuals doesn't dictate the tone of this forum. It's odd to me that the tone of Hatrack is chasing you away just as it's starting to remind me of better times.
Anyway, I hope I'm not part of the problem, and I'm sorry if I am. I certainly understand needing time away. I don't think there are a lot of assholes here, or that they dominate the conversations. I think people have gotten caught up in their emotions, because a lot of people on both sides, myself included, considered this the most important election of their times. And so, before the election, you had a lot of desperate attempts--on both sides, though you only seem to see it on one--to win the battle for hatrack minds by any means necessary, including ridicule, shouting, and bad behavior in general.
I voted for Kerry. I thought it was vitally important to our future that Bush not be reelected. If you voted for Bush, thinking it vitally important that he be elected or that Kerry not be elected, then I think you are wrong, and I feel confused by the differences between your worldview and mine. But I do not think you are an idiot or a bigot. Just wrong. I expect and accept that you view me in precisely the same way. I am not an idiot, nor am I a hater of Christians, or the family, or men, or what have you. I am, at worst, wrong.
I do not deny that there have been excesses. But I think the last few days have seen those excesses starting to recede, not grow worse, and I wonder if your tolerance has simply been worn down by the dark times behind.
In all seriousness, I view it as a small sort of personal tragedy every time I lose this virtual connection to somebody I consider special (and you know I count you among those) because they become disaffected with the tone of Hatrack. (Of course, the tone is what we make it.) Even those who post once every month or so are gone, as far as their friendship is concerned. So, if you really do leave, I will be the poorer for it.
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
I'll agree that it's gotten harder to post without being torn to shreds, unless one permanently resides in fluff-land. And great though fluff-land may be, it's not so great when it seems like a prison. Safe haven, yes, but prison nonetheless.
I don't know. I was here for the last election, and pretty much the same sort of thing was happening. Friend turned on friend, views were argued, dogs and cats were living together... and yet it wasn't the end of the world. We, the Hatrack community, recovered. It took a while, but people eventually moved on.
With that, sop, I hope you either lurk for a while and come back, or just take a break (and come back, of course ). I hate seeing people leave when they're angry, and I hope it doesn't happen to you. Or anyone, for that matter, but I'll address it to you, as this is your topic.
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
Nuts. I agree that the atmosphere here got a little thick at election time. It happened in 2000 as well, as I recall.
Check back in a while. It will have settled down.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
People at hatrack do have the power to hurt me--especially those whom I have considered my friends--and I have cut back when I have been hurt before. But, like Katharina, I have always found my way back, so far.
[ November 05, 2004, 11:46 AM: Message edited by: Icarus ]
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
The reason I keep coming back here is partially for the debates. Other forums/mailing lists I belong to are made up of people very much like me, with similar value systems and beliefs and political views.
That gets old after a while - I like being challenged to see things a new way. But, if it becomes so nasty that it's not fun or engaging or worthwhile anymore, I'll fade back into the woodwork again, too.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I won't miss Sopwith a bit, frankly. Mainly because he's talking about me with half of that post up there, and I think he's being a supercilious -- and, for that matter, inaccurate -- jerk about it.
Had he not been continually and perpetually hostile towards me, perhaps I would feel a moment's regret at his departure. As it stands, I do not.
----
Edit: Actually, after a moment's reflection, I do feel a moment's regret. I've never liked seeing anybody leave Hatrack, even the ones that I eventually supported banning.
But if Sopwith feels that he needs to leave because, God forbid, I'm too mean to him, I think some time off to gain some perspective is at the very least in order.
[ November 05, 2004, 12:05 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Hmm. I must have missed quite a bit. I can't think of a time I have seen Sopwith behave that way, but I have been lurking and I certainly have not looked in all of the recent threads.
He does say that his anger is making him be less like the person he wants to be, so maybe this is an acknowledgment on his part of having stooped to a level he is unhappy with. I've certaily been guilty of that.
-o-
I will say, though, that his initial post certainly suggests that only democrats are behaving this way, and the biggest asshole(s) I have seen in the last day or two are not democrats. Maybe we all have a tendency to only notice the things we don't like in those we disagree with. I think nastiness has certainly existed recently on this forum on both sides.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I think almost everyone who has posted in the political threads is going to be slightly ashamed of themselves next week.
It is fascinating to see how people handle stress and conflict. Hatrackers do have a remarkable amount in common compared to a slice of the general population, and it's still so incredibly different.
For the immediate topic, all dramatic goodbye threads are lame, and they usually mean someone needs a hug. Hatrack being the nicest place on earth that it is, you will always find someone to give you one.
[ November 05, 2004, 12:20 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by Lupus (Member # 6516) on :
I have noticed some of the same things happening over the past couple of weeks...but elections do that to people. It bothered me some, but it is by far better than things over at Martin's board where things stay hostile most of the time (which is why is withdrew from their community). I've not been here all that long, but most of the time I have been here has been pleasant. Just give the election a chance to blow over and maybe you will enjoy things again.
Posted by Ryoko (Member # 4947) on :
Tom,
Couldn't you just let it go without pouring more gasoline on the fire?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Nope. I will not let it go, because I disagree strongly -- vehemently, even -- with the insinuations made and do not feel that they should be permitted to stand unanswered.
Sopwith's entitled to his opinions. He is not entitled to a silent audience.
[ November 05, 2004, 01:16 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
It's not gasoline, and if it's flammable it's entirely the fire's fault. Posted by Ryoko (Member # 4947) on :
Very well Tom...
I just don't think it is in any way constructive.
Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
Oh, it's constructive... it'd just be a lot more constuctive if it were "Sopwith is mistaken because of X, Y, Z" rather than "Sopwith is mistaken, so it's okay if he leaves."
Posted by Lost Ashes (Member # 6745) on :
You know, the only person to whose name the AH label was stuck on specifically in my original post was my own.
But Tom, you weren't the only, and not even the worst.
But if you've got to be the corpse at every funeral, the bride at every wedding, so be it. I won't, and couldn't, stand in your way.
But believe me, you don't really stand out that much in that particular crowd. Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"But if you've got to be the corpse at every funeral, the bride at every wedding, so be it."
As far as I know, I have read every post you've ever made, and have not seen you make this complaint specifically about anyone else; you may well feel that other people do the same thing, but I've never seen you name them or address what you believe to be flaws in their behavior.
If you feel that I am indeed one of the lesser "offenders" of the sort you're describing here, you're welcome to post an apology retracting statements made yesterday that indicated exactly the opposite; believe me, there are plenty of funerals I'm willing to miss, and I've love to think that you hold me in a higher regard. I doubt, however, that this is the case.
[ November 05, 2004, 03:51 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
Posted by Lost Ashes (Member # 6745) on :
edited away.
Just walking away. The bait is too easy.
Peace be to you and yours.
[ November 05, 2004, 04:29 PM: Message edited by: Lost Ashes ]
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
Gee I used to read the posts here as a sleep aid before things got rompin' when I waded in!
Probably will go back to commenting on the fiction and essay's alone when this feeding frenzy dies down.
Nothing is more dull then a bunch of loving people being agreeable, it is sad but true. It is just so forced and unreal.
If you gird up your loins and wade into the fray you will enjoy it. It is the most fun you can have out of the sack or without a controlled substance.
BC
Posted by Lost Ashes (Member # 6745) on :
And there, my friends, is just what I want to avoid becoming.
Thanks, BC, I couldn't have begged for a better example.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
You fail to appreciate the difference between honorable combat between warriors and the marauding of common thugs.
Posted by Lost Ashes (Member # 6745) on :
From a distance that line between honor and thuggery is pretty distinct. But up close and in the thick of it, it is pretty easy to cross. It's even remarkably tempting.
And so, I'm going to try and bow out of it. If anyone on the otherside views it as a victory for them, then I congratulate them. They are wiser, stronger, smarter and quicker than I am. And believe me, I'm not too hard to best.
And I'd rather lose than to further disgrace myself in trying to snatch at victory in some meaningless war of words.
Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
Hey, don't badmouth the high and ironic art of meaningless wars of words... Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Lost Ashes, my post was aimed directly at Bean Counter's previous post, not yours.
I'll miss you - I hope you come back soon.
Posted by Lost Ashes (Member # 6745) on :
Dag, I'm not gone. Lots of people around here to miss. But I may scale back quite a bit, things just got too close and heated for me.
And I knew what you were getting at. Never a question in my mind there.
But so much for scaling back, so far, a slow day at work...
But I do have to say, if I scale back a bit and I find myself a bit more at peace, then I may scale back a bit more.
This whole thing wasn't you guys change or I'm gonna go. It was, I've gotta change or maybe I need to go. Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
It's a cycle. It's a cycle! There will be a gathering, and Hatrack will turn warm and fuzzy again. There will be five new couples, two weddings, a dozen new best friends, and no one will talk about politics at all for a month because they don't want to offend anyone. Then something will happen, and the place will erupt again. I'd be bored to death if it was always warm and fuzzy, and I'd avoid this place like I avoid Ornery if it was always all politics. It's a society, and it has its cycles. Be part of it, don't be part of it, it will go on anyway.
I'm going to repeat what I said elsewhere about the dramatic goodbye threads. Either you care what people think and you have friends here, in which case a dramatic goodbye thread is very inconsiderate, or you don't care what people think and your friends here are not enough to make it worth it, in which case you're asking for a bunch of strangers to validate you. And people will do that. And mean it, sincerely. I love that.
[ November 05, 2004, 05:13 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by Lost Ashes (Member # 6745) on :
I think what it comes down to, Katharina, is I wasn't really liking who I felt I could become validated as.
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
quote: It's a cycle. It's a cycle! There will be a gathering, and Hatrack will turn warm and fuzzy again. There will be five new couples, two weddings, a dozen new best friends, and no one will talk about politics at all for a month because they don't want to offend anyone
ZZZZZZZZZ......
BC
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Oh if only it were so.
Posted by punwit (Member # 6388) on :
I rarely embroil myself in threads that lead to vitriol but I have an observation on the original post. If you find that you can't control your desire to use profane language to describe your opponents then I would concur that you are loosing the battle of composure and a break is certainly a good idea.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Yup, there's a reason I'm apolitical. Yup, there's a reason I don't get involved in political conversations. Yep, I like being politically uninvolved.
Yep, I like being happy.
<attempts to lighten the mood.> Uh oh. <runs for life>
Posted by The Silverblue Sun (Member # 1630) on :
I'm taking a vacation from politics.
out
of
my
control
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
Everytime someone posts a dramatic goodbye thread, a puppy contracts tuberculosis.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Huh. I thought it was a kitten dying.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
It could be both. What Ralphie failed to mention is that she goes out and gives a puppy TB every time it happens.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
The funny is still strong in dear Toni. Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
Tuberculosis Ralphie and her "special" doggie biscuits.
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
quote: What Ralphie failed to mention is that she goes out and gives a puppy TB every time it happens
What Icarus fails to mention is that I'd probably being doing it anyway, it's just that dramatic goodbye threads give me an excuse.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
More meat for the pot, huh?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Consumptive puppy meat . . . yum?
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Better than kitty munchies. Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
What kind of person do you think I am?!
I would only ever give puppies TB for pleasure, I wouldn't even consider putting the meat to good use.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Sorry, my bad.... Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
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