This story makes me not happy. In fact, I hope all parents who send their children to that place die painfully and spend an eternity (alright, only a very long time) suffernig.
Posted by Anti-Chris (Member # 4452) on :
quote:'The purpose of observation,' Kay offers, 'is to give the kids a chance to think. Hopefully, it's giving the kids a chance to reflect on the choices they've made.'
If I were put in "observation" my reflection would be, "I'm coming back and killing each and everyone of you." Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
quote: Are we allowed to say "wtf" on hatrack?
You are in this case. You've got to be.
I am totally at a loss for words.
[ October 18, 2004, 06:49 PM: Message edited by: Teshi ]
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
WTF is this?
Fascism. Child abuse. Some sick bastard playing power games with children and making money off it. Parents abdicating responsibility for their children.
"She's so polite now"? She's also probably got PTSD. Good job, you sadistic b&^%.
Dagonee
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I read that article before. Things like that are frustrating and upsetting. Like a place in Canton MA that still uses shock to curb behaviour problems. Somehow that seems wrong to me.
Posted by Phanto (Member # 5897) on :
Generally, I'd think that use of swear words should, in a civilized forum such as this one, be allowed -- and if someone is using them inappropriatly, then they are cracked down on.
Here, where kids are being tortured, I think "WTF" is an OK word . Sigh, I appreciate that anger should not blind sensibility...but still...
This is DISGUSTING!
[ October 18, 2004, 07:55 PM: Message edited by: Phanto ]
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
I read the article last time it was linked and was disgusted then. Something struck me upon reading the first paragraph this time, though:
quote: When you have a teenager on the rampage, who are you going to turn to? In America, parents send their troubled offspring to Jamaica's Tranquility Bay - a 'behaviour-modification centre' which charges $40,000 a year to 'cure' them.
I've read other articles from the Observer/Guardian, generally linked to here at Hatrack. But I don't know if I get a sense from those few articles of what kind of news source this is. That paragraph I quoted above seems unbelievable sensationalistic, though. I don't know anybody who has sent their kids to Tranquility Bay, and I figure I've worked with well over 1200 teenagers over the last decade. Do you? This opening seems to imply that it's unbelievable common.
Is this typical fo this source, or just a poor phrasing?
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
The sad thing is, children with mental disabilities (and adults for that matter) don't even have to be shipped overseas to exeprience far worse treatment:
Electric shock applied to the body (e.g. arm, leg, or hand) for the purpose of discouraging the specific behavior it follows by causing pain [not to be confused with electroconvulsive therapy (ECT) used to treat severe depression; a procedure that is also subject to misuse]
Extremely loud white noise or other auditory stimuli
Forced exercise
Shaving cream to the mouth
Lemon juice, vinegar, or jalapeno pepper to the mouth
Water spray to the face
Placement in a tub of cold water or cold showers
Placement in a small room, closet, or box
Slapping or pinching with hand or implement
Pulling the hair
Ammonia capsule to the nose
Blindfolding or other forms of visual blocking
Placement in a dark isolated box or other methods of prolonged physical isolation
Ice to the cheeks or chin
Teeth brushed or face washed with caustic solutions
Prolonged restraint through manual or mechanical techniques (e.g. face-down four- or five-point restraint using mechanical tie-downs or several staff applying physical pressure)
Withholding of multiple meals/denial of adequate nutrition
[ October 18, 2004, 08:00 PM: Message edited by: Dagonee ]
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
The story sounds vaguely familiar, but I can't place it.
-Trevor
Posted by Phanto (Member # 5897) on :
Dag, I'm not really sure where that list comes from. Is it from the link?
Posted by Chaeron (Member # 744) on :
It's a repost from a little over a year ago. See Anti-Chris's link.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Try the link again. I edited it almost immediately, but you may have clicked it before that.
Posted by Mr.Funny (Member # 4467) on :
Ugh. That's just sick.
Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
The things some people come up with... sometimes I am ashamed to call myself of a member of the human race. That's revolting.
Posted by Dragon (Member # 3670) on :
quote: Lindsay Cohen is nearly 19. A straight-A high-school graduate, she was heading for Harvard until an unsuitable choice of boyfriend had her sent here at the age of 17.
WTF is definately appropriate for this. These parents are monsters!
Posted by lem (Member # 6914) on :
quote: . His business is expanding, and he is turning his attention to the UK, for he believes there is a large untapped market of British parents who would ship their children straight off to Jamaica if only they knew about Tranquility.
That is what these kids are: an untapped market. When you are making upwards $40,000 a year, there is no motivation for health. The methods are more in line with a cult then a correctional facility.
I am not big fan of government, but I can tell you I believe that teenage facilities need to be in government control/surveillance. Kids in private businesses have no advocates. At a state facility, every "take-down" restraint needs to have as many witnesses as possible and be well documented. There is legal accountability.
If we can prosecute people for going over seas for child sex, why can't the government step in and stop child abuse of its own citizens overseas?
11-17 years old? Words fail me. Of course Utah has its fair share of private group homes that are only marginally better.
[ October 19, 2004, 10:30 AM: Message edited by: lem ]
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Rarely do I get physically ill after reading something.
I'm going to go vomit now.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote: If we can prosecute people for going over seas for child sex,
Really? How does this work? If it's not illegal over there, how can we prosecute them for doing something that's not illegal?
Just curious.
Posted by St. Yogi (Member # 5974) on :
I can't help but feel queasy when looking at the various photos of the "Fun Day."
This thing is messed up! It definitely warrants a WTF. I feel like hitting something!
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
The U.S. has several "Travel for the purpose of..." criminal statutes, MPH. They stem from the Federal government's ability to regulate interstate and international travel. There has to be some nexus to the U.S., in this case citizenship or travel from the U.S.
Here's the applicable sex w/ minors law:
quote:18 USCS § 2423. Transportation of minors
...
(c) Engaging in illicit sexual conduct in foreign places. Any United States citizen or alien admitted for permanent residence who travels in foreign commerce, and engages in any illicit sexual conduct with another person shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 30 years, or both.
...
(f) Definition. As used in this section, the term "illicit sexual conduct" means (1) a sexual act (as defined in section 2246) with a person under 18 years of age that would be in violation of chapter 109A [18 USCS §§ 2241 et seq.] if the sexual act occurred in the special maritime and territorial jurisdiction of the United States; or (2) any commercial sex act (as defined in section 1591) with a person under 18 years of age.
The prohibitied act is travelling in foreign commerce and engaging in sex with a minor.
Here, it would have to be transporting of a minor with intent to imprison or something like that. It's doable legally, if not politically.
Dagonee
Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
Has anyone read the appreciation letters sent to this place? Holy cow!
quote: I just want to say thank you. You all have taken on a very tough job. I appreciate all of the guiding and coaching that you are giving my beautiful daughter. Thank you so much for helping her to see what a strong, special and wonderful young lady she is! 4's to all of you!
Lady, you could have done that yourself if you'd TRIED!!! MY GOODNESS! Man, I can just immagine what all the parents who send their kids to this are thinking. "I have a career, I don't have time to mess with this one child. I need someone to do all this 'parenting' stuff for me. I know, I'll spend what (probably) ammounts to a fifth of my yearly income to have my child kidnapped and taken to Jamaica. I loved Jamaica, my child will love it." Wow.
Edit:
[ October 19, 2004, 12:34 PM: Message edited by: Boris ]
Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
I'd say this reflects more on the parents than the kids....
I wonder what the result of the experience is.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
And all their photos are from one day. One day in 365.
The information that you need is either "coming soon" or missing.
Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
I think we need something like this for the parents. I say if the kids have to go through it, so should the parents. Kidnap THEM and do all this stuff to THEM and see what happens.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Some quotes from this thread:
quote: I hope all parents who send their children to that place die painfully and spend an eternity (alright, only a very long time) suffernig.
quote: Parents abdicating responsibility for their children.
quote: Good job, you sadistic b&^%.
quote: These parents are monsters!
Is there any indication that the parents know what is happening? If not, then they are guilty of poor judgment, not sadism, being a monster, being a bitch, abdicating responsibility, or anything worthy of the death penalty.
quote: Lady, you could have done that yourself if you'd TRIED!!
quote: I have a career, I don't have time to mess with this one child. I need someone to do all this 'parenting' stuff for me.
Don't you think it's possible that at least some of the parents did try, and were at the end of their rope when they heard of a place that would be able to accomplish what they were unable to?
I also wonder about bias of this report when he says things like "There is more than a touch of the Jerry Springer guest about his looks" which is obviously insulting and judgmental, and "he carries himself like a man who has learnt to expect the worst, and is seldom disappointed" which communicates absolutely no information except that the writer has disdain for this man, and so should the reader.
[ October 19, 2004, 01:25 PM: Message edited by: mr_porteiro_head ]
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Is there any indication that the parents know what is happening? If not, then they are guilty of poor judgment, not sadism, being a monster, being a bitch, abdicating responsibility, or anything worthy of the death penalty.
The report indicates that many children are sent in handcuffs to the place. Second, it's a parent's job to know, especially if they are sending their child to a place of confinement. Third, there's serious indication that the children are being disbelieved by their parents when they attempt to tell. Fourth, the details as published to parents would qualify as sadism in my opinion.
No, my sympathy is for the children, and the people near those children when they snap.
Dagonee
Posted by lem (Member # 6914) on :
Thanks Dagonee for looking up the specific laws; I had heard about the "traveling to other countries" law, but I was not sure of the exact legal language.
As far as the parents are concerned.... I don't know the parents. I don't know the kids. I don't know the situation. I will say that I think it is very irresponsible, unloving, or selfish to turn 49% of your parental rights to an organization that has no third party advocate for your child and has a stated purpose of making money off of your child.
Lets take Utah as an example: Some private youth homes make $5,000 per MONTH off of EACH child in their care. With that kind of money, what is the motivation to create a healthy relationship with the child?
These programs serve as punishment for out-of-control behavior, and they distort appropriate boundaries in relationships. The punishment may be justified (I bet most of the time it isn't), but the distorted boundaries with the relationship to authority can't be healthy in the long run.
Here is a link on warning behavior. Take it with a grain of salt; this site has a collection of identified cults, and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints in ranked in them. I don’t believe the LDS church is a cult. The content is thought provoking.
I did a little digging on your source, lem. While the info is interesting, the guy who runs the site is a little more... This is interesting
Just thought I'd let you know about that to help you figure out why they said The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints was a cult. Posted by dread pirate romany (Member # 6869) on :
This is sick, really sick. We couldn't treat an adult convict in that way, the ACLU would raise a hue and cry.
(edit for spelling)
[ October 19, 2004, 08:50 PM: Message edited by: dread pirate romany ]
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
Just to add to Dagonee's point about prosecuting nationals for crimes committed overseas...
Criminal jurisdiction (at international law) can rest on where a crime was committed, the nationality of the victim and the nationality of the perpetrator.
Every country is entitled to make (and enforce) laws punishing crimes committed in their territory (no matter who commits them) and crimes committed against/by their nationals (no matter where they are committed).
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Yep. That's how Spain indicted Pinochet - he (edit: allegedly) ordered the killing of some Spanish nationals.
Dagonee
[ October 19, 2004, 09:04 PM: Message edited by: Dagonee ]
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
quote: The sad thing is, children with mental disabilities (and adults for that matter) don't even have to be shipped overseas to exeprience far worse treatment:
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