More specifically, the anti-abortion ones. Let me suppose for a moment that you are absolutely correct : There is a God, he does judge humans, and he does consider life to begin at the moment of conception.
In that case, abortionists will go to hell, where they will burn forever. Conversely, the aborted fetuses will go to heaven, being presumably without sin. So, where is the need for action on Earth? The wicked are punished, the virtuous (or at least blameless) are rewarded. Everybody's happy! Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord!
Please don't take this as trolling, I am genuinely curious as to how you reason here.
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
Why stop murders? The victims will be made virtious in their suffering and achieve peace, while the murderer will never reach God because of his sin.
Hobbes Posted by CStroman (Member # 6872) on :
But the purpose of this life is to be tested.
And although the Abortionist obviously failed.
The Babies were robbed of the opportunity to choose for themselves.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
quote:Why stop murders? The victims will be made virtious in their suffering and achieve peace, while the murderer will never reach God because of his sin.
Quite so. Why, indeed? No secular arguments, please.
Comrade CStroman, how do you know that is the purpose of life? I don't recall it from the Bible. Can you point me at it?
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
OK. I'm religious, and am anti-abortion.
quote: There is a God, he does judge humans, and he does consider life to begin at the moment of conception.
I don't believe that human life begins at the moment of conception. It might, but I doubt it.
quote: In that case, abortionists will go to hell, where they will burn forever. Conversely, the aborted fetuses will go to heaven, being presumably without sin. So, where is the need for action on Earth? The wicked are punished, the virtuous (or at least blameless) are rewarded. Everybody's happy! Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord!
I don't believe that just because you do something wrong you go to hell and burn forever, especially if the person doing it doesn't realize that they are doing something wrong.
But if I did know that they would automatically go to hell for that, then it would only strengthen my commitment against abortion. Not is it (or might be) only killing a human, but it is damning another one.
[ September 23, 2004, 07:52 PM: Message edited by: mr_porteiro_head ]
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote: No secular arguments, please.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:In that case, abortionists will go to hell, where they will burn forever. Conversely, the aborted fetuses will go to heaven, being presumably without sin. So, where is the need for action on Earth? The wicked are punished, the virtuous (or at least blameless) are rewarded. Everybody's happy! Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord!
Under Catholic theology, it's possible they are denied the chance to experience the Beatific Vision. We don't know for sure.
Second, abortionists will not necessarily burn in hell.
Third, although martyrs may experience the greatest joy in their martyrdom, that does not mean those who made them martyrs should have done what they did.
Dagonee
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
quote:But if I did know that they would automatically go to hell for that, then it would only strengthen my commitment against abortion. Not is it (or might be) killing a human, but it is damning another one.
What do you care what happens to some atheist? But about your roll-eyes : Why? I was curious about how you would reason this out from a religious point of view. (Though now I think about it, you can go straight to the horse's mouth : "Thou shalt not kill." I won't make you explain why God might think it a bad thing.) So secular arguments would not really address my question; besides, I think I know them as well as the next guy.
You are both arguing that abortionists will not necessarily burn in hell; why not? Aren't they breaking a commandment, with no obvious extenuating circumstances? To put my original argument on its head, if abortion is not bad enough to condemn a man at St Peter's gate, why should we condemn it here?
EDIT : Added a very important 'not'.
[ September 23, 2004, 07:45 PM: Message edited by: King of Men ]
Posted by Mabus (Member # 6320) on :
A preliminary answer:
1) Ezekiel 18:23, 32
quote: Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD . Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?...For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD . Repent and live!
The punishment suffered by anyone for his sins, while just, is not the ideal. Is it not better that everyone should repent and experience paradise themselves?
2) I don't know what others believe on this, but I believe that our experiences on Earth prepare us for heaven. Our enjoyment will depend on how well we made ready in this life. The earlier a person dies, the less opportunity they have to prepare, so while children go to heaven, their experience will be lessened. Of course, there is a certain risk involved in living a long life, but it will be their own choices that determine their fate.
Posted by eslaine (Member # 5433) on :
quote: But the purpose of this life is to be tested.
Well, that's a relief. I thought it was all about bettering yourself.
You have a very Christian-centric view of the world, don't you? Consider other religions, you obviously haven't.
Posted by Mabus (Member # 6320) on :
Erik, KOM specifically asked for nonsecular arguments. Naturally each of us will have to reply according to our own belief system, including Chad.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
eslaine, be fair. KoM asked for responses specifically from our religious viewpoint.
quote:You are both arguing that abortionists will not necessarily burn in hell; why not? Aren't they breaking a commandment, with no obvious extenuating circumstances? To put my original argument on its head, if abortion is not bad enough to condemn a man at St Peter's gate, why should we condemn it here?
Because by failing to condemn it here we don't protect its victims.
And there's only one sin that cannot be forgiven. An unrepentant abortionist may end up in hell. But anyone can be forgiven and gain salvation.
Dagonee
Posted by digging_holes (Member # 6237) on :
Um... anyone remember "Thou shalt not kill"?
Note that God doesn't mention anything about when a baby is considered human or not, or even about humanity at all. He says "Thou shalt not kill." Period.
Seems pretty straightforward to me.
Posted by eslaine (Member # 5433) on :
Sorry, Mabus. But I don't believe you have to have a secular point of view to examine the question as I do. I just ask for a little open-mindedness.
And I was refferring to Buddhism.
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
There must be some purpose to life. If you believe that there is a purpose to life, and you believe that life begins sometime before birth, then abortion, regardless of where the aborted baby's soul goes, must be wrong. Abortion interupts the aborted person's purpose permanently, and the influence that person might have had in the world is forever lost. The world loses out in ways that we cannot begin to measure. And how sad is that, leaving aside where the souls of those involved may one day, sooner or later, go?
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
We're not saying there's no other way to look at it. We're saying we were asked to provide an answer from within our religion. If the following tenets of your religion are true, why does this require banning abortion. The answers must come from within our religion.
And his question mentioned Hell, so I doubt Buddhism applies here.
It doesn't have a Hell, does it?
Dagonee
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
Hang on, though. We have free will, right? So you cannot know that the aborted soul would have fulfilled its purpose. Or, of course, you could argue that its purpose was to be aborted and teach its erring mother a lesson; mysterious are the ways of the Lord, no?
And about "Thou shalt not kill" : It's not you doing the killing, it's the abortionist. Moreover, you might run into some trouble with the death penalty here.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:You are both arguing that abortionists will not necessarily burn in hell; why not? Aren't they breaking a commandment, with no obvious extenuating circumstances? To put my original argument on its head, if abortion is not bad enough to condemn a man at St Peter's gate, why should we condemn it here?
EDIT : Added a very important 'not'.
Just because you break a commandment doesn't mean you go to hell. Everybody sins. Not everybody goes to hell.
Besides, I don't even believe in St. Peter's gate.
What do I care what happens to an athiest? I try to follow the two great commandments: Love God and Love Your Neighbor.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote: But about your roll-eyes : Why? I was curious about how you would reason this out from a religious point of view.
Just because I am a religious person doens't mean that all of my arguments and views are religious.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
quote:Just because I am a religious person doesn't mean that all of my arguments and views are religious.
Of course not, but I was asking you for some religious arguments, and you responded with ridicule. That is possibly a touch rude.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I ridiculed you when you appeared to be saying that we couln't share our true feelings about the subject -- only those that we could back up with scripture.
edit: And it probably was rude. I apologize.
[ September 23, 2004, 08:00 PM: Message edited by: mr_porteiro_head ]
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
KoM, you asked a question to CS wondering where that info is in the Bible. Be aware that if CS is LDS (and I have a sneaking suspicion he is) he has far more scripture to draw on than the Bible.
The Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price--all LDS scripture--all discuss this as being an important part of the purpose of life. They also explain that someone is condemned according to their knowledge of eternal truths. You could reason from this that it is then best to be unaware of eternal truths. But LDS scripture also states that no one can be saved in ignorance. All must learn those truths, whether in this life or then next. It is my personal belief that no one will face their final judgement until they have had that opportunity.
Posted by eslaine (Member # 5433) on :
Great topic King 'o' Dudes!
Gotta run, but I'll answer Dagonee's inquiry:
My notes aren't with me, but the second level of reality is the place where the pretas or "hungry ghosts" dwell. There is, indeed, a precedent in the Tibetan Book of the Dead.
Thanks for the reading, people!
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
quote: And about "Thou shalt not kill" : It's not you doing the killing, it's the abortionist. Moreover, you might run into some trouble with the death penalty here
LDS scripture also has circumstances where man is commanded to kill. The Bible has plenty too, for that matter. And during the time this law was given, the penalty of death was pretty common for a wide variety of things that we wouldn't consider killing for today.
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
King of Men, the God I believe in doesn't, IMO, create souls simply to have them murdered before they are born for the single purpose of teaching its mother "a lesson". That would be like saying God loves sin because he knows it may lead to repentance. Some people say that God doesn't waste a hurt, and if that's true, then he gives grace where the pain of abortion lies. It doesn't mean he delights in that pain.
I stand by what I said... I believe that God created us with our own purpose, and abortion robs the world of the great plan he had for the aborted's life. If it had lived, it would have had at least a chance to fulfill that purpose. Dead, it cannot.
[ September 23, 2004, 08:05 PM: Message edited by: jeniwren ]
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I think I agree with jennywren's last post.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
I agree with Jeniwren. If our experiences here on earth were not very important, why put us here at all?
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Jinx Posted by Mabus (Member # 6320) on :
Um, I agree with Jeniwren too. Only I said it first. Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
Thanks for your replies, people. Your position is clearer to me now.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
But about your roll-eyes : Why? I was curious about how you would reason this out from a religious point of view. (Though now I think about it, you can go straight to the horse's mouth : "Thou shalt not kill." I won't make you explain why God might think it a bad thing.) So secular arguments would not really address my question; besides, I think I know them as well as the next guy.![[Razz]](tongue.gif)