Awesome speech, have to go to a thing now, discuss.
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
Even as someone who is rejoicing at his decision it is kind of ironic having him praise the men whom he condemned a decade ago while we're condemning Kerry for flip flopping himself. Of course, Miller isn't running for president.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
I happen to like Zell Miller, although we do disagree here and there.
-Trevor
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
I voted for him...and now he's campaigning for the wrong party! Well, whatever, I suppose. I think he was a very good governor, even if I disagree with most of his current positions as a senator.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Grah... more lies and half-truths. The whole lot of them... I simply cannot TAKE listening to those people. Posted by The Silverblue Sun (Member # 1630) on :
Zell Miller is a Orson Scott Card democrat.
"War. War. War. The liberals are evil. War. War. War. Freedom. Freedom. War."
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Grah... more lies and half-truths. The whole lot of them... I simply cannot TAKE listening to those people.
Synth, you make a lot of posts like this, usually with no examples, underlying reasoning, or explanation.
just because the person's not here doesn't mean it's polite to call him a liar with no backup at all.
Dagonee
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I wish these guys didn't simplify such complicated issues. Dag, this is because I'm burnt out with the whole thing... Even if I did have pages and pages worth of proof that these people exagerate, tell half-truths and attack each other like vultures it still wouldn't matter... Folks would just insist that I'm some crazy right wing hating liberal or something like that... Perhaps in the future, I'll compile some things and post them. But right now... Politics is going to make me go crazy.
[ September 01, 2004, 11:56 PM: Message edited by: Synesthesia ]
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Furthermore, it's obvious! Listen to them! They completely ignore things like Abu Ghraib, or how many Americans are losing their jobs because of outsourcing and downsizing and they don't care... Can't even write about it or try to argue about it because I really am worn out... They focus more on things like gay marriage and banning that then education... I really..really... really can't take much more of it... I ought to just pull out of these debates and arguments for my own sanity.
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
Is it just conservatives/Republicans or is it politics in general. If its the latter than I can sympathize. If its the former than I can give plenty to show you how liberals are just as bad and in my opinion worse.
Why would you expect a speech to focus on negatives anyways. It be one thing if it were an ignored question at a press conference, but when you're nominating your canidates... Besides I still don't think the administration should be blamed for Abu Graihb and they did mention the creation of new jobs. On top of all that the convention isn't over yet so its unfair to expect them to cover everything already.
Posted by Lupus (Member # 6516) on :
Him supporting bush is not anything like the flip flops Kerry does. If last week he said that he supported Kerry, and now he supported Bush that would be one thing. His issue is that the democrats did not put up a person who he felt would keep America safe. He is not suddenly agreeing on Bush on all issues...or even many issues. He simply has the priority of keeping america safe...something he does not feel Kerry will do.
Posted by michael thompson (Member # 6822) on :
FYI,
On the W. Coast, the news is showing old clips of ZM chastizing GHWB at some previous democratic convention. If ZM is an OSC democrat that would suggest OSC democrats sign on to play before the biggest audience they can find, at the moment.
mallow/MT/fallow/flish - I'm so confused.
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
Lupus, I know that, it still looks bad to the few undecided to have "Zig-Zag Zell" criticizing someone else for flip flopping.
He spoke English! Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
And I have to say, despite my several votes for him, that he had that moniker ("Zig-Zag Zell") LONG before Republicans in the public eye started applying it to every Democrat that saw. I'm really torn on him, though, because the man greatly facilitated the creation of the HOPE scholarship in GA, which let me go to college (undergrad, anyway) completely for free. But I really, really don't approve of GWB's courses of action thus far as president...eh. Ah, well, I'm not in his district anymore, so I guess it's really a moot* point.
(Alternately, a moo point. You know, like a cow's opinion...it's moo. One of the few jokes on Friends I found to be completely hilarious. Maybe it's just because cows are inherently funny. Alright, time to go to school.)
Posted by Sopwith (Member # 4640) on :
Remember, Zell isn't the only Democrat to start voting Republican in recent years, he's only one of a very large group.
There are a lot of folks who do believe that the Democratic party they once belonged to has been taken over by the fringe elements.
The Democratic party still pays lip service to their traditional power bases (usually during the primaries when they jockey for Union votes), but let's face it: there is a huge public opinion that their platform is dictated by Hollywood and fringe groups more than the common person.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"His issue is that the democrats did not put up a person who he felt would keep America safe."
Oh, that's a load of bull. His real issue is that the Democrats didn't put up a southerner who hates homosexuals and wants to stick the Ten Commandments on things.
[ September 02, 2004, 08:02 AM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
Tom, not all southerners believe that. I certainly don't. From what I've seen, Zell doesn't either. Given the rather enormous gay community in Atlanta, he would never have received the almost universal support that he got there if he did. While I am disappointed in the man, not ALL southerners (or even all southern politicians) are as you describe.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
But the Republicans DID, so what's the problem with his switching?
Free country and all. . .
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Oh, I've got no problem with Zell Miller switching parties. I think it's very appropriate, and regret only that, for the purposes of this convention, he's not coming clean about his real reasons for leaving. Since already he put down his real reasons in a book, it seems odd that he'd try to pin his opposition to John Kerry on foreign policy rather than, say, one of the ten or eleven reasons for supporting the Republicans that he listed last year. Of course, none of THOSE reasons play as well on TV when your party's worried about looking "inclusive."
Posted by fil (Member # 5079) on :
Did Zel actually switch parties or is he staying a "democrat?" He is kind of the opposite of McCain. McCain is very critical of his party, wasn't at all happy with who their candidate was for the presidency yet when called upon to support his party, he did so. I hope Zel changed. Sadly he is doing so while in power. I think people should change parties when they aren't in power or are running for election/re-election. Doing so while in power is pretty disprespetful to one's voters.
fil
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I agree, especially when party affiliation was made a campaign issue.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
Tom -- do you hear the Zell Miller speech? I was just blown away.
That was the only one I had a chance to listen to last night -- that, and when Mrs. Cheney introduced her husband...
Farmgirl
Posted by fil (Member # 5079) on :
Ooooh...yippeee for NPR. Didn't realize (but should have) that Zel's blasting of Kerry's choice to not support certain weapons platforms was a bit of a misdirection. While he was slamming on about Kerry wanting the troops to use "spitballs" to shoot at the enemy, Zel should have pointed out that Rumsfeld actually was a person who declined to support said weapons systems that Kerry also voted against. Whoops! Not like any Republicans care...say it loud enough and it MUST be the truth!
fil
fil
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Yeah, I heard the speech. It was well-delivered and cleverly crafted for emotional impact, especially for its target demographic.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Cheney also tried to get many weapons systems cut while he was in power in the republican admin.
In other words, if Zell's holding that forth as a reason, he either hasn't done his research or he's lying (or he has some incredibly narrow views on which weapon's systems are good to have around).
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Well, some weapons systems are garbage, some aren't.
And naturally, it'll be a bone of contention as to who suppoted what and whether the weapon was worthwhile.
-Trevor
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Did you take a look at what Cheney wanted cut?
Posted by fil (Member # 5079) on :
quote: it'll be a bone of contention as to who suppoted what and whether the weapon was worthwhile.
No it won't. At least not from Republicans. They will let 527 groups do this so they can not worry about it. Anything that could reflect badly on the Bush campaign with too close of scrutiny (like, oh, Viet Nam) can't be done by those groups. I am a bit surprised they let Zell go on about that...but I guess they were thinking that the media would focus on the "flip flop" from one party to another and make comparisons to his speech at Clinton's inauguration. Maybe he will become the new Ohio...as in "where Ohio goes, so goes the Presidency."
fil
[ September 02, 2004, 12:03 PM: Message edited by: fil ]
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Tom I think your characterization of southerners is uncalled for, and unlike you. You know I get defensive about my southern heritage - which while it has its black marks also has many things that I am very proud of.
Zell has been critical of the Democratic party since before Bush came into office. This is nothing new. Yes, it may be significant that he spoke at a convention for the opposite party, but everyone knew he where he stood. he was like Shelby in Alabama before he made the switch. heck, we all knew Richard Shelby was a Republican long before he made the switch formal.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Tom didn't say that was how southerners were.
edit to clarify: southerner was merely one of several descriptive words Tom was using for Zell Miller and the judges Zell Miller supports (among others).
[ September 02, 2004, 01:54 PM: Message edited by: fugu13 ]
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Interesting.
Might go a long way to explaining the lack of APCs.
-Trevor
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
*nod* fugu's got the right of it, Belle. I'm saying that Zell wanted a southerner and a neanderthal, not that Zell wanted a southerner because they're neanderthals.
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
quote: I think people should change parties when they aren't in power or are running for election/re-election. Doing so while in power is pretty disprespetful to one's voters.
Actually, in this case, Miller has very little responsiblity to voters. The governor of Georgia asked Miller to take over Senator Paul Coverdell's position after he died. Miller had already retired from politics and accepted the seat out of duty. He further annouced that he would not run for reelection. Miller's only duty is to do what he thinks is right, which seems to be exactly what he's doing.
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
Fugu, your article indicated that Cheney was forced to make cuts. Congress then forced him to cut programs he didn't want cut by making him continue programs that didn't need continuing. It does not indicate that Cheney wanted no more M-1s, F-14s, and F-16s but that he felt we had enough of those units so that more were not needed at the time.
Posted by kerinin (Member # 4860) on :
[rant]
since when did reducing america's nuclear arsenal become a justification for not voting for someone? i was just waiting for him to tell us where the trident missiles that kerry voted against had been used in the defense of american freedom...
i was also a little miffed at the statment about how kerry would let paris decide when america needs to be defended. kerry (to my knowledge) did not in fact say that he would ONLY use american military power with the UN's endorsement, and the statements Miller was referring to were made regarding Iraq. i'm sorry but i simply won't accept that we invaded iraq because america needed "defending". every war we've ever participated in has been started under the (now familiar) guise of "we were attacked", "we didn't want this war but was cannot loose it". in some cases this might have been true, in the case of iraq it wasn't.
[/rant]
Posted by Rhaegar The Fool (Member # 5811) on :
I especially liked the line, "What are we suppose to arm them with, spitballs?"
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
nfl, if you've ever watched a congressional committee meeting on budgets, every cut anyone suggests that could harm them politically gets phrased as something regrettable but necessary. The phrasing means nothing.
You might also note that Kerry's "opposition" to these weapons systems merely consisted of voting against large general budgets which these weapons systems were not a primary part of -- its quite likely that they were irrelevant to his votes, in fact.
But, (to address a particular person), I don't suppose that matters to you Rhaegar, because the attack was phrased wittily?
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
When the republicans invite a democrat to speak at their convention and he then proceeds to criticize other democrates for being wishy-washy -- you know that the republicans are counting on the general publics poor critical thinking skills.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
"I wish we lived in a day when you could challenge a man to a duel!"
Posted by Snowden (Member # 1660) on :
Zell Miller's redeeming quality is that he didn't spit on black people in the South, and for a while, I guess that's all it took to be a Democrat. But heard him on Meet the Press a few months ago, and he is as red meat conservative as they come, and not just on the war.
Miller is one of those guys who spooks me. One of those "Anyone who could possibly hurt my family, I'm going to blow up," and there is a huge demographic of Americans who believe this way. It's noble, kind of, but when you consider the thousands upon thousands of people we have to kill to get to the people you who may be thinking of hurting you, it's may be worth it to reconceive of the world as just not as safe as you assumed it was and go from there.
[ September 02, 2004, 11:43 PM: Message edited by: Snowden ]
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
As SecDef, Cheney had no control of the budget, he could only make recommendations. Since cuts were imposed he recommended that certain programs be the ones cut. He felt that we had enough M-1s, F-14, and F-16s so that we didn't need to make more. He never said to destroy or stop maintaining the ones we had.
Posted by BookWyrm (Member # 2192) on :
quote: As SecDef, Cheney had no control of the budget, he could only make recommendations. Since cuts were imposed he recommended that certain programs be the ones cut. He felt that we had enough M-1s, F-14, and F-16s so that we didn't need to make more. He never said to destroy or stop maintaining the ones we had.
And Kerry did? Link please.
Posted by fil (Member # 5079) on :
Poor John McCain. Seeing him on the Daily Show after a ton of video of the embarrassing Zell Miller antics made me almost want to hug the guy. Luckily he didn't play the usual political game than party hacks on both sides play...turn things around, twist words, etc. While he "dodged" the Zell thing a bit, he did come off as pretty disgusted with it and joined in on making fun of it with John Stewart. I feel bad that in a tight campaign year he has to turn into a Republican mouthpiece rather than the critic of all things partisan politics-as-usual. Oh well. He is still a solitary refreshing voice among the shrill cattle calls.
Zell Miller...as the Democrats say..."You can have him!"
On the "he wasn't elected so he isn't responsible to the people" well that is kind of bunk, too. So if a person isn't voted in by the people then he isn't responsible to the people? Like some judges? Police officers? IRS agents? If Zell was picked as a democrat to replace a democrat to be one in wolf's clothing is pretty disingenuous to those that elected his predecessor. Maybe his people love that wack job, regardless of party affiliation and his antics are exactly what they are looking for. Then again, I can still find tons of fans for Jim Trafficant in Youngstown as well so there is no accounting for local support for resident loose cannons.
fil
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
McCain behaved like a champ in that interview.
Posted by Rhaegar The Fool (Member # 5811) on :
Does it seem to anyone else that the main target of that speech was the Reagan democrats?
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
quote: On the "he wasn't elected so he isn't responsible to the people" well that is kind of bunk, too. So if a person isn't voted in by the people then he isn't responsible to the people? Like some judges? Police officers? IRS agents?
I didn't say he had no responisibilty to the people; I said he didn't have a specific group of voters that he was responsible to. As a public official he is of course responsible to the people, but he has the freedom to determine what he thinks is best for the people without responsibility to any one specific group of people.
quote: If Zell was picked as a democrat to replace a democrat to be one in wolf's clothing is pretty disingenuous to those that elected his predecessor.
Actually, Zell replaced a Republican, Senator Paul Coverdell. According to the Constitution, if a senator dies, the governor gets to appoint whomever they want. So... tough luck to anyone who voted the predecessor who wouldn't have voted for Zell, but in this case it seems to have worked out alright.
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Well, whatever, I suppose. I think he was a very good governor, even if I disagree with most of his current positions as a senator.
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