Recently -- and admittedly this was in the middle of a luke-warm (tepid) argument -- I was accused of using "self-effacement" as a technique to deflect criticism. It gave me pause, because I do have a tendency to like self-effacing humor in myself and others. At least in comparison to humor at another's expense.
But this got me wondering if maybe I've let this become a habit. Or if I have somehow turned it into a crutch, or like a pair of "debate glasses" (you wouldn't hit a guy with glasses, would you?) that I don to preempt or blunt the power of any opponent's criticisms of my points.
Or, as I think of it, does it serve to provide a context. In this particular instance, I was trying not to deflect offense (I was being purposefully offensive, though mildly so and with obvious reasons, or so I thought at that time). But rather, I was hoping to explain how it was that I could state a negative and still feel that I was not judging another person or pointing out something that I saw as a FLAW in their personality.
It turns out that others involved (by no means everyone) saw it as nothing more than the deflection thing. I do think others accepted my explanation at face value and remained silent on the issue.
So, here's the question: Let's separate this issue from whether it's about ME or a specific person and just talk about, if you don't mind, whether people's self-deprecation can EVER sound sincere to you. Does it provide a context? Because of the nature of a public forum like this, is there always the suspicion of a hidden motive like a cry for attention?
I'll admit that I like attention. A lot of attention. In fact, you all have been doing a less-than-perfect job of that. Just because Dana is giving me lots of attention now doesn't mean that the rest of you can slack off, you know.
Okay, anyway, it's not about me. I'm asking in general whether you have an automatic reaction to self-deprecation. Is it a "tactic" or can it sound sincere to you?
Thanks!!!
This is important. I may have to get new jokes depending on how this survey turns out.
[ July 23, 2004, 07:41 AM: Message edited by: Bob_Scopatz ]
Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
Sometimes, when I see a serious Bob post, I skip ahead to the joke at the end. Posted by punwit (Member # 6388) on :
I am a fellow self-deprecator, Bob. I usually tend to think of that term when dealing with humor.
Would the term self-effacing be applicable here or were you specifically set on self-deprecation?
Edit to add. I reread your post and saw that you did say self-effacing and I would comment that I think there is a subtle difference between self-effacement and self-deprecation. I would then say that I usually think of self-effacement as being more sincere than self deprecation.
If you are sincere in self-deprecation then you don't have a very good self-image but you could be self-effacing and still feel good about yourself.
[ July 23, 2004, 08:15 AM: Message edited by: punwit ]
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
For me it's an intuitive thing (which means it's inherently subjective and possibly flawed). I have to judge each specific case. Sometimes self-deprecation seems sincere sometimes a ploy. When it is sincere it can either sound like someone recognizing shortcomings or like someone expressing a very poor self-image.
I can't remember any time it sounded like a ploy coming from YOU specifically, nor does it sound like low self-image. The only times I can recall you doing this it came across with humor and I think I could tell when you were serious or just joking. (But I only know you through this forum and a couple of email chats).
Posted by Suneun (Member # 3247) on :
i'm going to write this with reference to self-deprecation in the face of compliment. It's hard to read from your generality the negative/defusing situation.
Sometimes, self-deprecation can sound like the person is trying to fish for compliments or appear humble when in fact the person is being manipulative.
But most of the time, with people I know, it's an indicator of something about this person's personality. It could be self-esteem problems, where I see the person not want to believe the compliment as true. It could be true humility. It could be gentle politeness from a cultural standpoint. When people who fall into these categories go through the motions of deflecting compliments, I don't think less of them. I only worry about the one who refuses to believe in the compliment, because that's a shame.
Posted by punwit (Member # 6388) on :
Japan incorporated self-effacement into its national image. When I think of a stereotypical Japanese businessman I see the definition of self-effacement.This deflective behaviour doesn't ring false to me it just comes across as ultra-polite.
Certainly I have seen people misrepresent themselves but I think self-effacement can be quite genuine.
[ July 23, 2004, 12:06 PM: Message edited by: punwit ]
Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
I often catch myself doing it as a way to draw compliments out further. I am trying to stop.
I have a couple of friends who use it in a reverse psychology type attack... basically saying "I'll grossly exaggerate what you are about to say to me to get you to feel sorry for me so you'll defend me from your own complaint and tell me what I want to hear" or "I'll beat myself up harder than you are so you'll see how badly what you said just hurt me." I've gotten fairly good at not responding to this tactic.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
Well, some of us use self-effacement because we really believe it's true.
But, then, I'm just the sort of pitiful person that would say something like this on a forum.
And I'm just terrible enough that I'll use a graemlin here, so you'll always wonder if I was being serious or not.
Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
Psi, I can honestly say that I believed it, even when using it to fish for compliments. That's a whole 'nother thread, though.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I don't like diffusing negative statements with self-effacement. Saying "I hate to say this" before something is a cop-out to me. Along with "Not to be insensitive" and "Don't take this the wrong way" and "I'm just saying." I think if you are going to say something, say and own up to it.
This is NOT directed at Bob in particular. It's just a thought I've been having lately.
This:
quote:I have a couple of friends who use it in a reverse psychology type attack... basically saying "I'll grossly exaggerate what you are about to say to me to get you to feel sorry for me so you'll defend me from your own complaint and tell me what I want to hear" or "I'll beat myself up harder than you are so you'll see how badly what you said just hurt me."
This I HATE. It makes me feel manipulated, and I don't like being manipulated. It isn't worth it to me. If this happens, for me it means the conversation is over. I'll own up to everything I say myself, but I won't defend myself for things that I didn't say. I see as a power play - changing the conversation to fit what they want you to be. If what you're saying may be justified, then ramp it up until it can't be justified.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
I think everyone knows something like that.
I try to blunt any commentary I feel I need to make because, in my experience, cutting edge observations are rarely if ever received well.
However, a blunted "I'm just saying" gets the thought in motion and the person I'm talking to will have it floating in the back of his or her mind.
Of course, with the people I know who warp, distort or manipulate everything - I avoid saying anything to because I know the end result and don't want to waste my time and energy.
-Trevor
P.S. As to how this applies to me - no comment. I'm way too introspective today anyway.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
I think there is a difference, though, between saying something like “not to be offensive but <insert offensive statement here>” and disclaimers that are meant to nuance or clarify a position.
In fact, the clarity thing is what it comes down to for me. Is the statement meant to facilitate communication or to score points/deflect responses? Which gets us back to the question of whether threads on Hatrack should be considered conversation or debate, which, IMO, is one of the differences of opinion that causes us the most trouble here. Some things that would be a “tactic” in a debate are “good communication skills” in a conversation.
Posted by ak (Member # 90) on :
I think over time you get a feel for what a person truly means. If their self-effacement is done for manipulative purposes, you begin to realize that and respond accordingly. But when people are self-effacing because they are actually putting things in the true perspective in which they mean them, that also comes through. I've always felt that about Bob's self-effacing jokes and commentary, as in the thread in question.
Other people are fishing for compliments, because they need the ego boost badly, and yet others are sincerely humble, or lacking in self-esteem. They seem to do it because they feel you are probably thinking that, and would rather say it themselves before you do, because it's less painful that way. Both these approaches display a lack of self-esteem, yet the latter is not annoying to me (though I know it can be to others) while the former gets tiresome after a short while, I guess because it's intended to elicit a response from you.
But I feel the same way about disclaimers like "no offense, but...", "don't take this wrong, but...", "I don't meant to be critical, but..." They nearly always preface something that's exactly what they are disclaiming. <laughs> Like a doctor saying "this won't hurt a bit." Just hearing them makes me cringe, before the whammy part even arrives.
[ July 23, 2004, 12:35 PM: Message edited by: ak ]
Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
you know, I think part of this comes from a misunderstanding of what "humble" means.
Bagging on yourself isn't humble-- it can actually be quite prideful...
of course, there is a difference between recognizing this (that is, assenting to the idea) and realizing it (putting it into practice)
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