This is topic Card is foolishly alienating a large percent of his fanbase with his idiotic articles in forum Books, Films, Food and Culture at Hatrack River Forum.
And he has turned me off from any of his future books with his disgustingly moronic political views. The guy is brilliant, mind you, but his preachy, condescending, illogical articles in these past years are embarrassingly bad and utterly worthless. Mind you, I frequently read other conservative columnists--Charles Krauthammer, for instance--and even when they're arguing the same points Card's essays still manage to be as distasteful as possible. I've also come to hate Card's tactic of defending many of his opinions by seeming to anticipate the arguments of the opposition--as in, he spends a very long essay decrying gay marriage and insulting homosexuals, and then he says, "oh, and they'll respond by saying that what I'm saying is hate speech." Of course, it IS hate speech, and the fact that he anticipates that suggestion does nothing to lessen its validity.
Additionally, his blind support of the Israel is, like with many other of his political views, simplistic and dumb. You would think somebody who professes to know a lot about history would learn to appreciate the fact that not everything is so black and white.
I had friends who responded by promising never to read another book by Card when I informed then of the disgusting stuff Card says.
Producing quality fiction does not give anybody the right to make a fool of himself in any other area. Card should leave political commentary to those who are less acerbic than him and more appreciative of the fact that if you're trying to win people over to your views, it is best not to use an approach that confirms their fears about you.
Thank you for listening.
(if you are wondering, I forget the computer generated password to my other account by the same name, and consequently had to register to make this thread...)
[ July 13, 2004, 08:24 PM: Message edited by: the_Somalian ]
Posted by Taalcon (Member # 839) on :
Oh well then. You'll just it make it that much easier for me to find an extra copy of his new releases.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
Good thing you posted a thoughtful, well-reasoned opinion piece as an example of what he should be doing. You know, one that offers rebuttal and discourse instead of name-calling and scorn.
Posted by Jutsa Notha Name (Member # 4485) on :
quote:Good thing you posted a thoughtful, well-reasoned opinion piece as an example of what he should be doing. You know, one that offers rebuttal and discourse instead of name-calling and scorn.
I agree. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
quote: Producing quality fiction does not give anybody the right to make a fool of himself in any other area.
Everybody always has the right to make a fool of themselves. Personally, I don't find Card's remarks foolish. However, even if he proclaimed that the world was flat, what is it to you? If you like reading his columns, read them. If you like reading his books, read them. If you want to make a fool of yourself by whining, go for it. You, like everybody else, have that right.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
If you're going to tell us this is an alt screenname, you should tell us who it's an alt for.
Oh, and what Chris said. I guess he's paying me back for posting his thoughts first in the Harry Potter thread.
Dagonee
[ July 13, 2004, 08:30 PM: Message edited by: Dagonee ]
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
Ha! Revenge is sweet, so very sweet...
Posted by Mean Old Frisco (Member # 6666) on :
Somalian, I think you may have lost a bit of your already scant fanbase with that rant, yourself.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Has anyone ever seen Dagonee and Chris Bridges in the same room together? 'Cause I'm not saying anything, or nothing ... but I think one of them wears stretchy underwear in primary colors.
Boxers, muted blues and browns.
Except for the pair with red devils and hearts I got for Valentine's day.
Oh, and one glow in the dark pair.
But other than that, muted blues and browns.
Dagonee
Posted by Yozhik (Member # 89) on :
Your one brief post contains rather more condescension, name-calling, and general nastiness than all of OSC's articles taken together.
You have failed to make your point.
Also, it is rather rude to use a person's web forum to attack that person. I say "attack" because that is what your post is. It is not "criticism" (see IanO's post on the other side for an example of what criticism is). It's an attack.
[ July 13, 2004, 08:43 PM: Message edited by: Yozhik ]
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
Let's see...
Card is foolishly alienating a large percent of his fanbase with his idiotic articles You're friends with a large percent of his fanbase? Wow.
And he has turned me off from any of his future books with his disgustingly moronic political views.. Ah, well. That's your right, of course.
The guy is brilliant, mind you, but his preachy, condescending, illogical articles in these past years are embarrassingly bad and utterly worthless. In your opinion.
Mind you, I frequently read other conservative columnists--Charles Krauthammer, for instance--and even when they're arguing the same points Card's essays still manage to be as distasteful as possible. Oh, he could be a great deal more distasteful than that.
I've also come to hate Card's tactic of defending many of his opinions by seeming to anticipate the arguments of the opposition--as in, he spends a very long essay decrying gay marriage and insulting homosexuals, and then he says, "oh, and they'll respond by saying that what I'm saying is hate speech." To be honest this is a tactic that bothers me as well, except that if I recall correctly he used a fictional dialogue and a straw man technique to illustrate how legalizing gay marriage was essentially the same as letting people marry their dogs.
Of course, it IS hate speech, and the fact that he anticipates that suggestion does nothing to lessen its validity. No, it's not. Card has never suggested that gays be treated in any negative manner, nor has he called for violence, abuse, or any discrimination that isn't currently legal.
Additionally, his blind support of the Israel is, like with many other of his political views, simplistic and dumb. You would think somebody who professes to know a lot about history would learn to appreciate the fact that not everything is so black and white. And the correct view would be...? Not that you might not have a good point, but you've failed to offer it, making your argument even more useless than a wrong one. At least I can argue with the wrong one.
I had friends who responded by promising never to read another book by Card when I informed then of the disgusting stuff Card says. If all they had to go on was your version of his articles, I don't blame them.
Producing quality fiction does not give anybody the right to make a fool of himself in any other area. You're right. People have the right to make a fool of themselves even if they haven't produced quality fiction.
Card should leave political commentary to those who are less acerbic than him and more appreciative of the fact that if you're trying to win people over to your views, it is best not to use an approach that confirms their fears about you. You don't like him so he should be silenced? Now you're confirming his fears.
I have some pretty sharp disagreements with some of Card's views, and some of his articles have been, in my opinion, condescending. I prefer to argue his points, instead of his style.
CT: I go commando. And Dagonnee and I have also had some disagreements over issues. We just discuss them with respect, like most of the people here. Besides, Teresa never liked Lois Lane. Too pushy. Posted by the_Somalian (Member # 6688) on :
Dag, I was known as the Somalian, but have forgotten the password, and am now known as the_Somalian. I had a short stint here in which I tried as hard as I could to keep my mouth shut about Card's articles and the fact that he possesses an imagination and hunger for political discourse that are too rich for his writing skills.
Anyway, I'm sure his intention is to educate his readers in what he perceives to be "right", but he fails because his approach is so clumsy and laughable. That's my point. I love Card's indiscriminate love for movies and his essays on art though--I try to avoid the political columns, but a sickening fascination on my part keeps me coming back to them, and I literally laugh at much of the stuff he says. For instance, that gay marriage is unnecessary because gays can already get married--to straight people! I mean, that made me laugh--that's why I keep going back to the political essays.
Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
Dag,
Muted blues and browns? Live a little, man!
space opera
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote: I try to avoid the political columns, but a sickening fascination on my part keeps me coming back to them
It sounds like a personal problem to me.
[ July 13, 2004, 08:51 PM: Message edited by: mr_porteiro_head ]
Posted by Lupus (Member # 6516) on :
I think it is rather silly to stop reading an author because you don't believe in their views. I have seen many authors/movie stars that have views that are VERY different from my own. Just becuse I think Tim Robbins is a moron when he goes on about the war does not mean I don't think the Shawshank redemption is an amazing movie.
Just because you don't agree with one aspect of someone's life does not mean that you must hate everything they do. Besides, you don't have to read his articles. I did not even know that he wrote essays until I started posting here. I just liked his books. In all honesty I have only read one or two since then. I have generally agreed with them but I really don't read political editorials all that often. I mostly stick to news stories and such.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
On the plus side, sticking your head into someone's forum and screaming is a great, if obnoxious, way to get a lot of responses...
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:And Dagonee rather vigorously and extremely quickly denies wearing primary-colored underwear!
[Eek!]
Sounds like he has something to hide, if you ask me.
If you want to see my underpants, just ask.
I'll still say, "No," mind you. But it'd be great in the OOC thread.
On the more serious note, I've seen everyone but Taalcon who's defended in this thread OSC disagree with one of his articles on a serious policy issue. As CT said, this disagreement is happening on a site paid for by OSC. And it's not cheap.
The disagreement over on Ornery is even more vicious. He pays for that, too.
In short, when OSC says he's trying to facilitate political dialog in America, I believe him. Even if he does go over the top sometimes or do it less than perfectly.
Dagonee
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
CT: Look over there, it's Sophia, and she's doing something cute!
(dashes off in the confusion)
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:he possesses an imagination and hunger for political discourse that are too rich for his writing skills.
Actually, I think the problem with his articles is that his writing skill is so great. It's his advocacy skills that are not highly polished.
When someone sees an argument they dislike presented with all that passion and skill, it has a greater effect than when a hack does it.
quote:Yeah, I bet you do. Like a metronome, back and forth, perfectly timed and crafted rebuttals, almost as if you knew what the other guy would say next!
She's on to us. You know what to do!
Dagonee Edit: I can't believe he ran out on me.
[ July 13, 2004, 08:55 PM: Message edited by: Dagonee ]
Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
How much does it cost to maintain a site like Hatrack? Just curious!
Off topic perhaps, but not anymore off topic than the color of everyone's underpants! Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
(stands next to Dagonnee to disprove accusation, hopes fake mustache and beard stays on straight)
Posted by Yozhik (Member # 89) on :
Dagonee wrote:
quote:I've seen everyone but Taalcon who's defended in this thread OSC disagree with one of his articles on a serious policy issue.
What did I disagree with? I don't remember.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Yozhik, I removed that from my first post and added it later, so it should read "everyone who posted before I did on this thread." Sorry about that.
Dagonee
Posted by Jutsa Notha Name (Member # 4485) on :
quote:How much does it cost to maintain a site like Hatrack? Just curious!
Between all of his sites, I'd say somewhere in the ballpark of a couple to a few thousand a year.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Speaking of inane blather, at some point I blew right by 4000 posts. Yikes!
Dagonee
Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
After consideration, I do believe that my question regarding the cost of maintaining Hatrack was the only off topic post.
Carry on with the underpants color inspection.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
*wanders back in*
"Oh, Chris Bridges was here? I always miss him when he's around..."
Dagonee
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
"When suddenly, in another thread..."
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Wherever there is evil, you will find us!
Posted by Lois Lane (Member # 5651) on :
quote: Besides, Teresa never liked Lois Lane. Too pushy.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
I've found that the OSC opinions I disagree with the most are the ones that are the most conservative. I also find that his conservative viewpoints come from a different direction than most of the stuff I hear on conservative talk shows or from the people who tend to quote such stuff to me. So, I tend to give him points for originality and thoughtfulness, even when I do disagree with him.
In other words, I still respect the man even in disagreement.
There are lots of people about whom I cannot say that because their opinions are indeed ill-supported. I even find that in people with whom I generally agree.
I know I have a personal bias. I pretty much loathe the conservative viewpoint in America. I think that just about anything that begins with "market economy" or "family values" is code for something dark and sinister in our society.
And I have yet to find anything that convinces me that I'm inherently wrong on this.
The nice thing about Card's opinion pieces is that they don't just spout the usual stuff that I've heard before. I may still end up disagreeing with him (and I often do). But that doesn't mean I just tune him out, as I have learned to do with so many of the conservative people I know or hear.
Anyway, I repeat myself.
Here's the bottom line: I buy OSC's books because they are great. Among the best I've ever read, period.
I don't pay to read his opinions. If I had to pay, I probably wouldn't read them. But since they are "out there" for free, I sometimes go look at them and try to gain a little insight from someone who isn't just a knee-jerk conservative and who sometimes comes at it from a completely novel perspective (at least one I've not encountered before).
And even if we are on opposite sides of the fence on just about every social issue I can think of, I still think of him as gracious and honest and a man I could sit down and talk to over a bowl of lime jello casserole.
Whereas there are many people with whom I agree that I end up cringing at the very thought of sharing an elevator ride in silence!
So, go figure.
Besides, I know that secretly OSC and KACARD agree with everything I've ever said. They just like to alienate fans because they can!!! I have it in writing. It's around here somewhere. If my darn desk wasn't so messy I'd prove it.
I mean really, think of how boring all that adulation can get.
That and there's no such thing as bad publicity.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
On the other hand, I've never seen Bob Scopatz and OSC in the same room togeth... oh, wait, yes I have.
Damn.
[ July 13, 2004, 09:44 PM: Message edited by: Chris Bridges ]
Posted by Mabus (Member # 6320) on :
Now I feel weird about agreeing with OSC so often.
Posted by Armoth (Member # 4752) on :
Sfunny, when I presented my friends with some of the articles Mr. Card wrote, they resolved to read MORE of his novels. I guess its a matter of opinion. MY opinion is that if you disagree with the man, keep his works and his opinions seperate. Its only YOUR loss if you dont read him.
Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
I can state my political opinions fairly easily. It goes like this:
*Crouches under desk in fetal position, fingers in ears*
*rocks back and forth, muttering "NNnnnnuhh, nnnnuh..."*
I haven't bought the last few of his books because the last few before I stopped reading 'em just weren't as fun for me. *shrug* I'm sure it has nothing to do with his political views. I read books by people because I like the stories, not because they are conservative, liberal, alien pod people, etc.
*gets back under desk and sucks thumb*
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:. . . alien pod people . . .
*looks around suspiciously*
*glares*
Ok, who told?!
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Replying only to the first post... I never really trusted Card until I started reading his review articles. And got help for my OCD.
Posted by just_me (Member # 3302) on :
disclaimer: I haven't read many of Cards articles recently becuase I just haven't had the time. Back when I had time I often read them and disagreed, sometime vehemently. However, I think the_Somalian's post is off-base..
BUT
I'd like to make a comment on something Chris said:
quote:Of course, it IS hate speech, and the fact that he anticipates that suggestion does nothing to lessen its validity. No, it's not. Card has never suggested that gays be treated in any negative manner, nor has he called for violence, abuse, or any discrimination that isn't currently legal.
Although I sometimes think that Card borders a bit on what I would consider statements made out of some level of (for lack of a better word) bigotry, I wouldn't call what he says hate speach either. HOWEVER, I think Chris's argument that just because it's legal discrimination it isn't hate speach (which is how I read the above... apologies in advance to Chris if I'm misinterpretin) is pretty bad. In our history we've had lots of legalized hate and discrimination, and just because it was legal at the time that doesn't mean it wasn't hate and discrimination...
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Whatever you do, don't drink the kool-aid.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
His essays FEEL sort of... hateful to me... Perhaps because I am queer for the most part myself... So it hurts about 5 times as much. So I try to avoid them unless someone quotes them here... I tried so hard to avoid the homosexuality ones.. But people posted topics about it and, well... That sort of speech doesn't say, go out and beat up gays, but it sure doesn't help...
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
foolish alienation...?
*licks lollipop and skips away*
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Somalian, in the interest of objectivity, your are not the first person to post that particular opinion. You are not the only person on this forum who dislikes most of Orson's War Watch essays.
On the one hand, I think it's silly for people to expect those who critique his essays, given the way he writes them, to treat him more respectfully than he does those groups or ideas that he disagrees with. OSC doesn't respect them, why should others respect him?
I guess the answer really is that two wrongs don't make a right. Just because OSC is the way he is, doesn't mean you have to be as well. Personally, I agree that his essays push those away who don't already agree with his points of view. Just console yourself with the idea that every time an essay of his hits the stands, or the net, he alienates rather than builds coalitions, angers rather than persuades. He undermines the very ideas he strives to see realized.
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
quote:He undermines the very ideas he strives to see realized.
Sorta like a certain filmmaker of recent ill-repute and box-office success.
fallow
Posted by littlemissattitude (Member # 4514) on :
So here's the deal. I don't read many of OSC's essays/editorials/whatever you want to call them. I've disagreed with probably 97 per cent of the ones I have read.
However, I have this naive attachment to the First Amendment, part of which has to do with free speech and the right of everyone to say their piece. So my position is that he gets to tell the world what he thinks, and I can read it or not at my discretion. He'd probably disagree with a lot of my opinions, too, many of which I've articulated here. As far as I know, none of my posts have ever disappeared because he, as proprietor of this website, or the moderators in his employ, might disagree. Some places, the posts would disappear. I've seen websites like that.
Anyway, how many people here hold the same political and social opinions as every single one of their friends? Show of hands? Well, I have to say that most of my friends don't agree with my opinions on lots of issues, and I don't agree with them. We're still friends. We understand that people of good will sometimes disagree. Vehemently.
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
LMA,
define "friends".
May I take a stab at it if you don't care to?
fallow
Posted by Cactus Jack (Member # 2671) on :
I always have to wonder when someone thinks that someone who disagrees with them hates them.
I disagree with my wife all the time.
My mom and I vote very differently.
My kids and I disagree whether Lady and the Tramp II was such a great peice of film that it deserves to be watched multiple times a day.
I love all these people dearly, and I wouldn't so much as try to trip my mom on the way to the voting booth.
Is passionately dissagreing with somebody really one step away from advocating violence against them?
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
quote: I wouldn't so much as try to trip my mom on the way to the voting booth.
is tackling out of the question?
fallow
Posted by littlemissattitude (Member # 4514) on :
fallow, you asked for a definition of "friends", so you shall have it.
The people I am referring to here include people I have known for years and consider as close as, or closer than, family. They are people I would trust with my life or my money. We just happen to disagree on some things, some very fundamental things, I might add.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
HOWEVER, I think Chris's argument that just because it's legal discrimination it isn't hate speach (which is how I read the above... apologies in advance to Chris if I'm misinterpretin) is pretty bad.
That's why I mentioned it last. Legality is not enough n its own, as you pointed out.
Posted by LadyDove (Member # 3000) on :
Bob- Thanks for the reminder. Posted by fil (Member # 5079) on :
In fairness to the_Somalian, while I don't agree with how he said it, I surely felt that way when I first came here and read some of OSC's articles. I think it came from having this very strong appreciation for the man and author, having read a ton of his books and thought I had a grasp of how he would be "in real life." You read the books and find this love of life, appreciation for diversity and interesting points of view and...well, nothing that would have pointed to a bitter, Conservative rant on a monthly basis. When I first read his articles, I had expected some of the warmth, wit and good humor of his novels but found only poorly worded re-treads of the kind of right wing apologists that one can hear on Rush or Hannity type show.
It isn't a matter of "it is his space and his right" which of course is true. It is big fans of his work having to come to grips that the author of such wonderful and inclusive tales of Alvin Maker or Ender Wiggin is so completely on the other side of the fence outside of those stories.
I could ask the question "What Would Alvin Say" about certain topics and couldn't hear him saying the kinds of things that OSC does about his fellow citizens. So while the Somalian may have gone off half-cocked, I can completely relate with the feelings of disappointment and shattered images of who the real OSC is outside of the novels.
fil
[ July 14, 2004, 07:54 AM: Message edited by: fil ]
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I don't disagree with OSC all that much - it's mainly one issue, civil gay marriage.
I saw a perfect example of the kind of opinion that spurs a lot of OSC's editorials in the Post Express today (they don't put those online). It was basically a ranting dismissal of opponents of gay marriage, with no attention paid to the unique government purpose behind the legal benefits of marriage.
The casual dismissal of the "gays can marry straight people" argument is similar. This is not ridiculous when taken in context of the larger debate on the societal importance of traditional marriage. Yet people generally dismiss it with one sentence.
It's mind-boggling to me. If you disagree with a point, then explain your reasons. If you jump up and down and call the person with the opposing opinion names but don't provide reasons, don't expect to be taken seriously.
Dagonee Edit:
quote:I could ask the question "What Would Alvin Say" about certain topics and couldn't hear him saying the kinds of things that OSC does about his fellow citizens.
I think you'd be surprised what Alvin would say. OSC clearly thinks that there is a role for government in the preservation of a traditional community sturcture and underlying moral code. I'd be surprised if Alvin doesn't agree. Remember who Alvin is loosely modeled after.
Dagonee
[ July 14, 2004, 08:28 AM: Message edited by: Dagonee ]
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Oh, the disEnchantment.
Feel like OSC's committed Treason, do you?
Your Hart's Hope of OSC being a liberal guru, handing out Treasure Boxes of wisdom, dashed. . .
You feel like a Lost Boy. You feel lower than a Wyrm.
Too bad. Real people are different from the characters and stories they create. Get over it.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
That reminds me CT, what were you on last night.
More importantly, where can I get some.
Dagonee
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
You know, I've always known and been aware of the fact that this forum is operated and paid for on a strictly volunteer, charitable basis. But I'd never thought about that while thinking of Card's essays.
Now, I'm not talking about Card's opinions which I often disagree with (well, actually, it's mostly social domestic areas I disagree with). I'm talking about how he writes his opinions when he is obviously intelligent enough and aware of the fact that many people won't like them, and some in fact will come to hate and despise him for thinking the way he does (to wit, the_Somalian).
But still he write, and maintains the forum, and even permits people to disagree with him. I haven't been to Ornery in quite awhile, so I guess I'd forgotten it's 'Charter' (so to speak) about creating a place for political dialogue. Card is definitely doing that, and I can't say I'd be as generous about it if I were him. So, thanks again, Cards and mods, for the generosity. I've said it before, but this time it's for a different reason.
Posted by Sopwith (Member # 4640) on :
I do have to say that from the flip side of the coin, Mr. Card has never ripped into The Somalian for his statements.
Perhaps he understands that private opinions publicly expressed are still, at their core, private opinions.
Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
Or, Maybe he just doesn't give a rat's @$$. Edit: to add "what The Somalian says."
[ July 14, 2004, 10:33 AM: Message edited by: Olivetta ]
Posted by Erik Slaine (Member # 5583) on :
Hmm. I really don't read much op-ed anyway.
Yes. I'm very indifferent to this topic. I have no idea why I posted.
Sorry. Posted by Destineer (Member # 821) on :
I dislike OSC's opinion articles as much as anybody, but I am still always happy to reread the original Ender series. I would still buy his books if he didn't insist on inserting his rants into them, a la Petra's monologue against psychology in Shadow of the Hegemon.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I'll still read his books. Like CT I'll probably try to avoid the Shadow series (and fail, the same way I peek at the occasional article or two) It's just frustrating to me, because on a certain level I LIVE this issue. I'm not just someone sitting on an armchair who probably knows very little about what it is like to be queer in America, I'm in the game ready to take the blows and kicks that comes from them... It's just hard getting those sort of blows from an author I (still) respect. It's about as painful as being rejected by friends, not that that has happened to me. (yet) It makes me want to argue with him in the most politest manner possible, but it's agonizing to read him and realize he sounds like Billy Bob and Snot Nosed Punk of CWFA only without the terrible name calling! So frustrating... Posted by Jimmy (Member # 5518) on :
I'm a bit confused.
A man whom we all love (hence being on his fansite) writes an essay expressing his point of few.
The essay is offensive, it's radiacal and goes against what some people on Hatrack believe and possibly practice.
So, one gets on the forum, that has been made in his honor, so that they can bash him and his point of view and his action in expressing the point of view due to it's harshness. Despite how, he has in someway provided a place for all of you to meet one another, enjoy one another on both an intellectually stimulationg level and a simple enjoyment of each others company.
So let me get this strait.
I came into your house, ate your food, enjoyed your home and family, and then when you decide to tell me what you think about the world, I call you idiotic and offensive just because I don't agree, or your just too harsh in what you say.
Is that right?
<--- confused.
Posted by Ben (Member # 6117) on :
i came onto this site due to meeting people from the site. i was on here long before i was familiar with the man's work. and i've only read one book by him. i'm farily indifferent toward the guy...
but that's neither here nor there.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Syn-- why do you think these issues are button pushers for lots of us?
We all 'live the issue.' That's why civility is so important.
Posted by Jimmy (Member # 5518) on :
Either way, it is the mans site.
And no one started this forums saying I disagree with him, in a respectfull way. The way that this site was designed to be used and what has kept it alive for these years. People came into the site acting as if the man didn't have the right to write his own articles and express his own point of view. Like he was commiting a sin by writing what he believed in because it was offensive, or harsh, when it is thanks to him that we have a place to come and do that exact thing.
I'm sorry, I guess it just comes off as ungrateful to me somehow. I understand disagreeing with OSC, I do alot of the time. The man is simply that a man. But as a man he has every right I do, and by saying or implying that he is to blame for "alienating" people and condemn him simply because he expressed his opinnion, however radical, is what some of us do everyday. So the man can't do that now that he has fans?
[ July 14, 2004, 11:25 AM: Message edited by: Jimmy ]
Posted by kacard (Member # 200) on :
Bob -- you want to sit down and talk to OSC over a bowl of lime jello casserole? Dang -- two of the foods he hates most in the world -- jello and casserole. Guess we'll have to pass until you come up with a better menu Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
Dang, Bob totally blew his chance!
Hey, can I take Bob's spot? I'm thinking more along the lines of some fine Italian cuisine in Boston's North End
After all the DNC hub-bub has passed, of course.
-Bok
Posted by Sopwith (Member # 4640) on :
KACard, y'all could come over and have pot roast, mashed potatoes and homemade biscuits at my house any ol' time... Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
W.W.A.D.? Keep in mind that Card didn't just write Alvin. He also wrote Peggy and Thrower and Calvin and all those people.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Hey, if OSC comes over to my house, I'll completely go against one of my dearest held values-- and make the man a steak well-done.
Posted by docmagik (Member # 1131) on :
I am willing to serve up a steaming plate of feijoada. With or without farinha, on the side. His choice.
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
I've noticed that my readership has dropped significantly too since I started posting political articles.
Hobbes Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Anyone heard of Tantalus and Pelops? Now that's how you cook to impress the gods. Maybe not in a good way, but still.
P.S. Dagonee, I noticed when you hit 3999 but I didn't know if you cared, so I didn't say anything. I think it was in or near the Wafer Nazi thread.
[ July 14, 2004, 01:11 PM: Message edited by: pooka ]
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Note to Kristine -- Bob is not planning the menu for the wedding reception. On the off chance that you guys could make it, don't let the threat of jello stop you.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Hobbes, are you just joshing, or are you really posting political articles somewhere? If you are, where?
Posted by Erik Slaine (Member # 5583) on :
Well, that's it. I'm hungry now.
And it's two hours till lunch.
*breaks*
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
All of a sudden I wish I were.
[EDIT: would anyone read them?]
Hobbes
[ July 14, 2004, 01:18 PM: Message edited by: Hobbes ]
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
It can't be worse than OSC's political commentaries, and I read his.
Storm Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
Try me.
Hobbes Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Dagonee, I noticed when you hit 3999 but I didn't know if you cared, so I didn't say anything. I think it was in or near the Wafer Nazi thread.
It's probably best. Less than two months between landmarks seems like overkill.
Dagonee
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Dag- perhaps. But not noticing for six hours after is unusual (see, the joke is that he would have accumulated 230 posts in six hours) Aw, forget it.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Hobbes, everything you write is usually well thought out and polite. I like reading your opinions.
Stop engaging in this unseemly display of false modesty before I bean you one upside the head.
Storm Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
Well so long as you promise never to kiss me again I may just start this idea up... of course this would require some sort of bloging like technology that I currently don't have...
Hobbes Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
I'm not so sure I would want Dag as my attorney. I'd be afraid he'd be billing me for all his internet time.
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
Then I suggest you don't hire me.
Hobbes Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:I'm not so sure I would want Dag as my attorney. I'd be afraid he'd be billing me for all his internet time.
Never. Apparantly, they aren't used to productive interns here. I'm haveing to scrounge up work and space it out to keep busy.
This would never happen at a firm.
Dagonee
Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
quote:That reminds me CT, what were you on last night.
More importantly, where can I get some.
I almost asked the very same thing last night. I enjoyed your sillier side.
Posted by Rohan (Member # 5141) on :
Dag, I've having EXACTLY the same problem at this law firm. Though, do your bosses come up to your computer after two days of saying, "Rohan, I'll have something for you in a few minutes," and say, "Hey! what are you doing at some non-legal website!?!?"
What a j-o-k-e.
p.s. The pay's not bad. Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I'm getting paid nothing - it's an internship for the US Attorney's office in DC. It's not bad - I get to go to court whenever I want pretty much, but they have a problem of evening out the workload. Either I have 2 motions and 3 discovery packets in one day, or I have to stretch one motion over 3 days.
It's fun, though.
Dagonee
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
Responding to posts of the previous page: Well, hating jello is something on which I definitely agree with OSC! Blech! Nasty, jiggly, slimy stuff!
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
I remember having to live on jell-o in the days following surgury. Actually it was only one day but it was still enough for me to swear off it for life.
Thankfully now that I'm a vegan I can say I can't eat it because of animal bones in gelatin. And people will nod understandingly and tease me about being vegan for the next few months. But I don't have to eat the jell-o. I feel this is a good compromise.
Posted by Rohan (Member # 5141) on :
Dag- I am a big fan of your posts but now I hate you. That's way more fun than what I'm doing. Are you first or second year?
p.s. I like jello, but only before it has set up, and only when I'm sick.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
First year. Next summer is a firm job, I think, just to make sure I have income until I can get into a prosecutor's office in NoVa.
That reminds me - I gotta start signing up for interviews.
Edit: Are you first or second?
Dagonee
[ July 14, 2004, 04:57 PM: Message edited by: Dagonee ]
Posted by Rohan (Member # 5141) on :
I am a first. Most of my buddies couldn't find anything as first years but I guess I just sold out under a lucky star. Wait till I tell them you're working for the US Attorney in DC.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
quote: Thankfully now that I'm a vegan I can say I can't eat it because of animal bones in gelatin. And people will nod understandingly and tease me about being vegan for the next few months.
Don't feel sad. Every conversation I have with my vegetarian friend starts with "You want a ham sandwich?" or something similar.
You'd think after two years I'd remember she doesn't eat meat. Just chalk it up to stupidity.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote: Thankfully now that I'm a vegan I can say I can't eat it because of animal bones in gelatin. And people will nod understandingly and tease me about being vegan for the next few months.
So I shouldn't tell you about the "jello"s that are made with pectin or agar-agar instead of gelatin?
Posted by Julian Delphinki (Member # 6686) on :
I'd like to hear what OSC has to say!
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Yeah, you just wait right here for that, bud.
I'll go get him to post. . .
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
you know the only way I like jello is when I eat it raw, like a pixie stick.
but I don't like pixie stix
AJ
Posted by the_Somalian (Member # 6688) on :
I would just like to say one thing. The fact that this is Card's forum is a total non-issue. I am getting very tired of people buttressing their viewpoints by stating the obvious fact that people have a right to hold opinion contrary to it. Of course I have a right to disagree. It is gracious of Card to offer this forum, but it's a bit tiring how the fact is used to address any objections someone may have to his articles.
At any rate, my hate for Card's political viewpoints stems from the fact that they're so emblematic of the stubborn, simple minded and self-righteous wing of conservatism. That Card states regretting not calling the COPS on people who INVITED him to their house...because they were in possession of some Marijuana...is profoundly indicative of what an unpleasant prude he must be. To whoever said he'd like to hang out with Card--why, for the love of God? Judging from his political essays, he's judgmental, self-important and quite the pompous asshole whose grandiose notions of himself as some sort of Speaker for anything and everything that makes Conservatism so repugnant to half the nation made me seriously reconsider my love for his fiction. I read some of his stories today and as I'm enjoying them, I'm reminded of the fact that the same man once suggested Syria and Iran be invaded after Iraq, and I shudder in disgust...
Posted by the_Somalian (Member # 6688) on :
"People came into the site acting as if the man didn't have the right to write his own articles and express his own point of view."
Some of you need to realize that an objection to a man's opinion isn't the same thing as an objection to the man's right to hold that opinion.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote: Producing quality fiction does not give anybody the right to make a fool of himself in any other area.
Those were your words. It sounds like you object to his right to express his opinion.
[ July 15, 2004, 05:34 PM: Message edited by: mr_porteiro_head ]
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"To whoever said he'd like to hang out with Card--why, for the love of God?"
Because he's actually rather witty, intelligent, and pleasant, and isn't quite as ascerbic when he's looking you in the face.
"Some of you need to realize that an objection to a man's opinion isn't the same thing as an objection to the man's right to hold that opinion."
Sure. And God knows I disagree with him on almost everything, politically; I lean libertarian, and he leans authoritarian. But you've basically come into his house -- a forum he visits occasionally, a forum his family visits often -- and insulted him in a particularly rude and uncouth way.
You aren't the first to do this, believe me. And you certainly aren't the only person here who's not a huge fan of Card's political polemics. But perhaps you would find your views more palatable were you to tone down their presentation a bit, given the setting and audience?
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:It is gracious of Card to offer this forum, but it's a bit tiring how the fact is used to address any objections someone may have to his articles.
You didn't state your objections in a clear manner. You stated conclusions about his work with no supporting reasoning, and you did so in an offensive manner. Most of us weren't refuting your opinion, since there was so little of it there to refute. We were calling you rude for your words in the forum he paid for.
Dagonee
Posted by Black Fox (Member # 1986) on :
People like you sicken me, you are angered by a persons opinions. Fine, don't buy his books. It won't do anything to me, but as soon as you bring it into the public arena, this forum, you are doing the same thing that you accuse him of. I guess you're just alienating everyone that has a distaste for same sex marriage ( but thats all right because they're just evil bigots). Also I wouldn't read my fiction based on what the author thinks, I do so based on the merit of their work. For instance I really don't agree with most of the things Neruda believes in , but I love his poetry.
That and you should really work on your own humility, you come across as a very arrogant and elitist, but thats all right as I'm not one very high in the classes of our society. I doubt you would hold my opinion to be much worth.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
I don't know that I could count Scott as a 'friend' per se-- but I have had dinner with him.
He is a gracious and charming host. He is free with kindnesses, and miserly with critiscisms. He is a bit of a performer-- but he is VERY good at it, and frequently allows his show to be stolen. That is the mark of a generous soul.
Quite frankly, Soma, you don't know jack. Or Scott. Either of us. Posted by A Rat Named Dog (Member # 699) on :
I'm really, really annoyed right now, but honestly, how do you respond to a personal attack like the one this guy just wrote — particularly one that does more to prove the point of Card's article than refute it? I mean, if I had to choose between hanging out with a "prude" like Card or a "way cool guy" like The Somalian, well ... the choice would be easy
In case anyone missed the irony, I promise you, Card is anything but a "prude" ... but he IS an honorable man who holds himself to a high standard of behavior, and values his own honor far higher than he values something at fleeting as being seen as "cool". It's really sad to realize that this virtue is so completely lost on some people, and it's even sadder that for someone like The Somalian, the desire to be one of the "cool guys" is so much stronger. I would love to have seen that kid in middle school So pitiful ...
[ July 15, 2004, 10:29 PM: Message edited by: A Rat Named Dog ]
Posted by the_Somalian (Member # 6688) on :
Often Card's solution to problems of bad behavior is for a community to shun the person committing them. The question is, will I be shunned? I really like this place and how everybody is so close...like neighbors.
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
*odd inexplicable fleeting thought*
You know what Card's op-ed pieces remind me of sometimes? They remind me of that sign-post amidst the tents in the camp on the MASH sitcom.
fallow
Posted by Eruve Nandiriel (Member # 5677) on :
quote: Often Card's solution to problems of bad behavior is for a community to shun the person committing them. The question is, will I be shunned? I really like this place and how everybody is so close...like neighbors.
Does anyone else think that the Somalian is being a hipocrite here? He doesn't like OSC anymore, and says he doesn't want anything to do with him, or read anymore of his stuff...but he wants to be a part of hatrack? One thing we all have in common is that we like OSC, or at least his writing. He also complains that OSC is "alienating" his fans, and yet he comes in here and alienates people at hatrack, and expects to be welcomed with open arms and treated like a close neighbor?
I'm disgusted.
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
*snaps an anti-seasickness bracelet around Eruve's wrist*
Not a big fan of Somalian, Eruve, but I fail to understand your disgust with S's inconsistencies.
fallow
Posted by Yozhik (Member # 89) on :
the_Somalian:
Well, you've come in here and given personal insult to a person whom many of us admire. What do you *expect* us to think of you? How do you *expect* us to respond, when you attack our friend?
Posted by the_Somalian (Member # 6688) on :
I don't know, um, condescending nonchalance, perhaps? Please let me in your club...I'll be a good boy, I will.
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
Soma,
*regards upstart over reading-glasses*
You got a lot to learn about condescension, young person!
After reading the_Somalian's posts, I am trying to decide whether his rants are supposed to be an attempt at parody. Because I just couldn't help laughing at how utterly ironic they all are.
You accuse Card of being fiercly conservative and horribly biased and yet you cannot see you are just as guilty of the same qualities you have accused him of. You say you are disgusted by the judgemental tone of Card's essays yet you have shown in your posts that you possess that same antagonistic self-righteousness. You've made your mind up that this guy must be a jerk because of his political views. Because he's such a die-hard conservative and so insensitive in his essays he must be a pompous asshole. How would you know? You've never met the guy.
You can't see that you've already managed to discredit the basis of your argument because you're as biased as you're accusing Card of being.
Listen carefully to how you say things next time.
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
quote:Seems like???
a game of ping-pong?
*raises eyebrow*
fallow
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
T!
quote: You accuse Card of being fiercly conservative and horribly biased and yet you cannot see you are just as guilty of the same qualities you have accused him of. You say you are disgusted by the judgemental tone of Card's essays yet you have shown in your posts that you possess that same antagonistic self-righteousness.
Comparing S's posts to Card's self-promotional diatribes is like comparing Ebert's film reviews to Spielberg's self-indulgent masterpieces.
come on!
we don't hold flick reviewer's up to the same scrutiny as we do our cultural demogogues!
fallow
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
quote: The fact that this is Card's forum is a total non-issue. I am getting very tired of people buttressing their viewpoints by stating the obvious fact that people have a right to hold opinion contrary to it. Of course I have a right to disagree. It is gracious of Card to offer this forum, but it's a bit tiring how the fact is used to address any objections someone may have to his articles.
You never said what your objections were, just that you didn't like his articles. And you did it in a manner to suggest that he didn't have the right to post his opinions on a site that he pays for himself. Not what you said, which has been little, but how you said it.
quote:Judging from his political essays, he's judgmental, self-important and quite the pompous asshole whose grandiose notions of himself as some sort of Speaker for anything and everything that makes Conservatism so repugnant to half the nation made me seriously reconsider my love for his fiction.
And what exact ally does any of that have to do with his fiction? It can't be that you disagree with his books, because you have said that you liked his writing, and came here because of it.
quote: Often Card's solution to problems of bad behavior is for a community to shun the person committing them.
What would you recommend he do....not to you, he doesn't even know you exist, but in general? If a community doesn't like a behavior, how else would they stop it from happening?
quote: Additionally, his blind support of the Israel is, like with many other of his political views, simplistic and dumb. You would think somebody who professes to know a lot about history would learn to appreciate the fact that not everything is so black and white.
That's odd, your opinion of his views seem to be all black and no white. You should appreciate that complex issues like Israel aren't that simple, and not everyone who disagrees with your "solutions" (not that we have heard any from you) isn't necessarily simple or dumb.
quote: Card should leave political commentary to those who are less acerbic than him and more appreciative of the fact that if you're trying to win people over to your views, it is best not to use an approach that confirms their fears about you.
Our point exactally... Posted by Temari (Member # 6708) on :
quote:Comparing S's posts to Card's self-promotional diatribes is like comparing Ebert's film reviews to Spielberg's self-indulgent masterpieces.
come on!
we don't hold flick reviewer's up to the same scrutiny as we do our cultural demogogues!
So maybe I was a tinsy bit harsh in my comparison. Maybe a mild shock will serve to get the point across to him.
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
*kills thread*
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
quote:So maybe I was a tinsy bit harsh in my comparison. Maybe a mild shock will serve to get the point across to him.
Oh, I don't think you were harsh. Just inaccurate in your assessment. And, truth be told, I'm not sure you knew what your point was other than casting aspersions (sp?).
fallow
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
No Temari, I think you were spot on (not bad for a nOOb.. )....ironic that he complains about Card being offensive and rude in an offensive and rude manner himself, huh?
Fallow, that isn't a good comparison. Civility isn't hard...you just have to respect others enough to use it.
Disagree with whatever you want, most of us have. I hated his article on homosexuality, and though there was some very shoddy logic in it; Chris was right when he posted about the straw man comparisons OSC made. However, I didn't write a thread calling OSC names, did I? And I am not a very good writer at all.
I just respect OSC's right to post his opinions on a site he pays for. After all, he lets me post here too, and I don't pitch in a dime for upkeep.
If you want to disagree with something go ahead and do so....but please make sure you are specific if you really want responses that address your concerns. Don't just say someone is a butt-head, and then expect us all to thank you for it.
Kwea
[ July 16, 2004, 01:38 AM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
kwea,
you are possibly a bigger butthead than my own gluteous self and a worse speller!
kudos maximus!
fallow
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Well, if I cop to the spelling part, you will still be the butt in butthead... Posted by punwit (Member # 6388) on :
As I've aged I find it more and more tedious to get worked up about another person's opinion. I can still get into a friendly disagreement with close friends but that's about it.
I find it almost juvenile to deprive yoursself of something you enjoy simply because you disagree with OSC's political stance. If you try really hard I'll bet you can narrow down your reading choices to a bare minimum, like only things you have personally penned.
Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
quote: Because he's actually rather witty, intelligent, and pleasant, and isn't quite as ascerbic when he's looking you in the face.
I'd say he's actually very witty. At the book signing in Forest City, NC a while back, he made my son laugh and pay attention, which is not exactly the easiest thing to do.
My son made the comment "I liked him mom, he was not boring at all".
Hey...if children and small animals like you, you can't be all that bad.
*can only verify the children part of that statement*
[ July 16, 2004, 07:58 AM: Message edited by: Tammy ]
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:I would just like to say one thing. The fact that this is Card's forum is a total non-issue. I am getting very tired of people buttressing their viewpoints by stating the obvious fact that people have a right to hold opinion contrary to it. Of course I have a right to disagree. It is gracious of Card to offer this forum, but it's a bit tiring how the fact is used to address any objections someone may have to his articles.
No, it's not a non-issue. You can get tired all you like, but you were making some very personal and obviously untrue-to wit, this forum's sponsorship for YOU-insults and criticisms about the man. And people weren't using his sponsorship to object to your opinions, which were stated rudely and without addressing Card's real issues. They were responding mostly to the tone of your post.
quote:At any rate, my hate for Card's political viewpoints stems from the fact that they're so emblematic of the stubborn, simple minded and self-righteous wing of conservatism.
And my contempt for yours stems from the fact that stubborn, simple- and single-minded, self-righteous thought on BOTH sides of that spectrum. And that has absolutely nothing to do with the Cards' ownership of the place.
You go on shuddering in disgust, since it makes you feel even more smugly superior than you already are. I'll try to tamp down my worry and regret about how you feel Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
quote:Oh, I don't think you were harsh. Just inaccurate in your assessment. And, truth be told, I'm not sure you knew what your point was other than casting aspersions
This may be my favourite post on Hatrack in a long time. It can be applied to so many posts on Hatrack, both those that defame and those that sprinkle holy water.
As for this
quote:One thing we all have in common is that we like OSC, or at least his writing
I'm pretty confident in saying that's untrue. One thing we all have in common is that we like each other, or at least each other's writing. At the end of the day this is an exercise in community building, not an OSC fansite. Not saying that you can run amok saying whatever you please about Card, you can't do that to anyone on this board. Ideally (my ideal, clearly) he would be treated with the same standards we hold for everyone else.
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Dont Know]](graemlins/dontknow.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Taunt]](graemlins/taunt.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
I'm very indifferent to this topic. I have no idea why I posted.![[Cry]](graemlins/cry.gif)
![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)
Keep in mind that Card didn't just write Alvin. He also wrote Peggy and Thrower and Calvin and all those people.
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
![[Evil]](graemlins/evil.gif)
![[Evil Laugh]](graemlins/evillaugh.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
(see, the joke is that he would have accumulated 230 posts in six hours) Aw, forget it.
![[Mad]](mad.gif)
![[Kiss]](graemlins/kiss.gif)
![[Laugh]](graemlins/laugh.gif)
butt-hat![[Blushing]](graemlins/blushing.gif)