Exactly what it sounds like. I looked on the statement of belief on beliefnet, but basically all it said was that they don't have a set of beliefs. So what are they? Other than liberals, of course.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
"Here, have some unitarian ice cream!" *holds out empty ice cream cone."
Bart. "But it's empty."
Rev. Lovejoy. "Eeeeeeexactly."
*tongue firmly in cheek*
Posted by Richard Berg (Member # 133) on :
It's not that the members don't believe in anything. It's that the church itself doesn't tie itself to a creed, allowing a plurality of compatible beliefs to exist under the same roof.*
As a community superstructure, I think it's admirable and should be studied. Once upon a time conservative political philosophy was founded on the idea of a government whose rules consisted of only those necessary to define a self-regulating community -- in math terms, taking the intersection of a set of people's ideas about society. So long as each's ideals allowed him to coexist peacefully, the differences should never be codified into the governing superstructure.
As a religion, I think they're a bunch of pansies.
*I suppose you have to believe that said beliefs can coexist. It would be a fun experiment to see how well their vaunted tolerance applied to incompatibilism.
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
*idly dreams of the day for a game of marco polo with monsieur berg in the water*
fallow
Posted by Rappin' Ronnie Reagan (Member # 5626) on :
quote: As a religion, I think they're a bunch of pansies.
...
Here's a link to a list of the principles and purposes of Unitarian Universalism from the official website.
[ May 30, 2004, 04:42 AM: Message edited by: Rappin' Ronnie Reagan ]
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
Don't Unitarians deny the triune nature of God?
Hence the "unity" in Unitarianism.
Or are they the ones that eat babies.
I forget.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
By the way, they are a non-creedal religion. That's not the same as not having any principals. In fact, given that creedal statements have been, at times, subjects for battles and strife between Christians, I sort of see their point.
I just finished reading with dkw a great book that covers the origins of some of the statements in the Apostles Creed -- why they are there, what the issue was. It's really an interesting study. What we profess to.
I think many people believe that the creeds were handed down from God, or at least devinely inspired. When in fact, they are the result of much political wrangling by people who were ready to kill over certain points of what, when you hear the arguments now, seem like minutia.
Anyway, Unitarian Universalists probably make really good friends, but lousy soldiers.
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
A friend of mine who was dating a Unitarian used to say "They stand up firmly for believing nothing in particular." She mostly said it to tease her boyfriend, though, not to be snide.
I worked for a woman, years ago, who was very involved in the Unitarian Church - since she was raised Catholic and he was raised Jewish, I guess it was a compromise for them. Their family seemed to get a lot of satisfaction out of their association with the Unitarian Church.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Unitarianism is an excellent religion for people who like their God undiluted by dogma. Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
I think Unitarians mostly believe anything put to folk music.
Garrison Keillor jokes that the Unitarians don't have the Ten Commandments-- they have the Ten Suggestions.
I've only met one person who was involved with the Unitarian Universalists; and he was just looking into becoming a member. His specific reason for becoming a member was that their religious philosophy was open enough to incorporate a wide range of beliefs, and non-beliefs.
I have no idea what the defining, unique characteristics of Unitarianism are.
Posted by fil (Member # 5079) on :
From the UU Web Page:
"We, the member congregations of the Unitarian Universalist Association, covenant to affirm and promote
*The inherent worth and dignity of every person; *Justice, equity and compassion in human relations; *Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations; *A free and responsible search for truth and meaning; *The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large; *The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all; *Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part. *The living tradition which we share draws from many sources:
-Direct experience of that transcending mystery and wonder, affirmed in all cultures, which moves us to a renewal of the spirit and an openness to the forces which create and uphold life; -Words and deeds of prophetic women and men which challenge us to confront powers and structures of evil with justice, compassion, and the transforming power of love; -Wisdom from the world's religions which inspires us in our ethical and spiritual life; -Jewish and Christian teachings which call us to respond to God's love by loving our neighbors as ourselves; -Humanist teachings which counsel us to heed the guidance of reason and the results of science, and warn us against idolatries of the mind and spirit. -Spiritual teachings of earth-centered traditions which celebrate the sacred circle of life and instruct us to live in harmony with the rhythms of nature. "
Just in case folks don't go to the linked page above. As a UU member, I love UU humor (Simpsons has a lot of it) and I think the NPR show Prairie Home Companion had the best. In one of their skits, the characters ended up in a basement of a UU church. On the walls was a poster that read:
"Someone or something loves you."
Love it. Did this thread come from this recent story...
But to get to the point of the original post, the UU Church has a set of core beliefs above that should define the typical member of the church. How you get to and support those beliefs is not the focus. Or, conversely, it IS the focus. The church is a venue for people to search and find their spiritual path to lead them to the core beliefs of the church.
The terms come from the joining of two churchs in the mid-20th century. The Unitarian faith (which as noted in a post above eschews the "tri" nature of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) joined with the more humanist Universalist church. It still tends to be a Judeo-Christian crew, but is becoming more and more diverse. At my church, we have a married couple as our pastors. The wife teaches from a Christian point of view while the husband is from a Buddhist perspective. Very cool stuff.
The question I often get from my more devout Christian friends (oddly enough, not from Jewish or any other faiths that I know) is: Don't you have a Bible?
It seems a huge concern that we don't have ONE playbook to read from. The fact that one week we will have readings from the Bible, another from contemporary authors, yet another from Islamic text and another from what devout christian's could call "pagan" sources just baffles some folks in search of a more streamlined path.
Which is cool. If people want that, there are plenty of choices out there. The churches that are growing the fastest in our piece of the mid-West are these charismatic churches with paint-by-the-numbers indoctrination. There is no gray, only clearly defined black and whites. One of the churches even advertises on its church sign "Systematically teaching the word of God."
For those folks, the UU Church is much to open ended and I understand reservations for that. It doesn't give Texas the right to say it isn't a religion because some religions are too confining, though.
I was wondering, what does "UU makes good friends but bad soldiers" mean?
God (or whatever ) Bless,
fil
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
fil-- Can we call you the Rabbetzin of UU-ness?
How does UU reconcile doctrines of a contradictory nature? (Christianity and Islam, for example)
Oh, and: what, in the UU understanding, happens after death?
[ May 30, 2004, 10:50 AM: Message edited by: Scott R ]
Posted by fil (Member # 5079) on :
quote: As a religion, I think they're a bunch of pansies.
We are a bunch of flowers? How quaint. What else could you possibly mean?
What would that make Christianity? Dandelions?
fil
Posted by fil (Member # 5079) on :
quote:Oh, and: what, in the UU understanding, happens after death?
Well, here is the biggest misconception of the UU church and, in particular, the hardest part to explain. There is NO "UU understanding" of what happens after death. Each member can and does have their own understanding. I don't think this is any different than a typical Christian church. Having been a Catholic and knowing a ton of Christians, not one has the same understanding of what happens after death. Sure, words like "heaven" and "peace" and so on are described (or hell, in my case I guess) but scratch a bit and the differences begin to show. Does Jesus show up to welcome each person individually? Is it clouds and harps? The green land described by Tolkein? Floating among stars? A nice long massage? Or blissful nothingness. Or just nothingness. Multiply that ten fold and you get the possibilities in a UU church.
The big thing is that in many things theological, there is no "UU understanding." In terms of how people should be treated in life or on earth, though, there is an understanding. That is the focus of the church, I believe.
fil
Posted by fil (Member # 5079) on :
quote: How does UU reconcile doctrines of a contradictory nature? (Christianity and Islam, for example)
Such as? I can only speak from experiences I know and have seen first hand or read about. A similar question is how can any church reconcile doctrines within their own faiths that are contradictory? There are literally hundreds of Christian demoninations, each with their own interpretations of ONE book. The Old Regular Baptist women of my grandmother's congregation never cut their hair because a page in the OT said not to. Are they more devout?
Within the UU church, it isn't about reconciling, though. It is about personal exploration as well as community values. In their purest forms, Islam, Christianity and Judaism are pretty similar. It is the cultural messes that make them hard to reconcile. In my opinion. I haven't had to deal with that directly. In my own experience, we reconcile a sort of hazy spiritualism (in my case) and a wife who is best desribed as an athiest (though she likes Humanist better). Oh, and a daughter (5 years) who loves the Baby Jesus.
What are things that you feel would need reconciling?
fil
[ May 30, 2004, 11:07 AM: Message edited by: fil ]
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:But of the denials, at least a fourth include less traditional groups. In addition to the Denison Unitarian church, the rejected groups include a Carrollton, Texas, group of atheists and agnostics, a New Age group in Bastrop, Texas, and the Whispering Star Clan/Temple of Ancient Wisdom, an organization of witches in Copperas Cove, Texas.
Some of the denials occurred because of missing paperwork or other problems, according to the comptroller's office. A few, like the denial for the New Age group and the witches group, were decided because their services were closed to the public, according to documents. (EMphasis added.)
What I find interesting is that apparantly atheists only consider themselves a religion for tax purposes.
Dagonee
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
quote:UU makes good friends but bad soldiers
Bunch of peace loving people. That's all.
I admire that.
Posted by J T Stryker (Member # 6300) on :
While searching for a religion for myself (something that many don't take the proper amount of time in doing) I seriously looked into the Unitarian Universalists. I mean they have the perfect religion. It excepts literally everyone who wants to be a member, and unlike many other religions, since they have no holy book of their own, they have no real contradictions. It is my understanding that they teach only basic principles of love and peace, not right and wrong like many other religions. I have to say I probably would have ended up a UU except I can't understand their belief in "God" or what ever they think there is out there, That's why I finally went with the Methodist doctrine.
Stryker
Edit: cause i can't type
[ May 30, 2004, 01:47 PM: Message edited by: J T Stryker ]
Posted by Richard Berg (Member # 133) on :
So yes, they are very humanistic and pantheistic and so on. Fine attributes. The silly part is that because they've taken root in the USA, where all the cool kids associate with Jesus and sit on pews on Sundays and call their leaders Reverends, they've decided they want to act like that too whether or not it adds any actual meaning to their style of spirituality. In reality, I think these practices just cause confusion.
Posted by AmmonRah (Member # 6583) on :
Thank you for this thread.
I think that I understand it now.
UU is sort of like being a Rotarian, everyone and anyone can join and work to improve themselves, their family, the nation and the world as long as no one brings up religion.
Posted by Angelina (Member # 6573) on :
Woah there Richard. When you label yourself with a particular religion, you basically have just adopted a firm set of beliefs that now define you. There in lies the beauty of Unitarians; they don't constrict you and, more to the point, they don't reject you. In fact, most of my best friends graduated from a Catholic high school. As they grew up and began to question specific aspects of their religion, they started to realize exactly how much they didn't agree with. Now that, my friend, is confusion.
quote: The silly part is that because they've taken root in the USA, where all the cool kids associate with Jesus and sit on pews on Sundays and call their leaders Reverends, they've decided they want to act like that too whether or not it adds any actual meaning to their style of spirituality.
I wonder what religion you grace with your participation which brings you close enough to God to enable you to determine another person's level of spirituality.
Posted by Samuel Bush (Member # 460) on :
Interesting stuff, fil. It sounds pleasantly informal. It sounds like a group who could calmly discuss differing ideas without it deteriorating into a rancorous verbal brawl.
A few questions occurred to me while I read through this thread – if you don’t mind me asking. (I haven’t checked out the posted link yet but intend to. So if it any of these questions are answered there, don’t bother answering it.)
What is the process one goes through to join the church? Baptism or common consent of the group or what? (I’m not thinking of joining – just curious.)
How is the day to day business of a local group administered? You mentioned pastors. Is there a council of members who help or what?
What kind of emphasis do you place on service to others?
You mentioned reading from various books in your meetings. Is the Book of Mormon ever included in that list? If not, what would the reaction be if someone did use that book in a meeting?
You probably don’t call it “excommunication,” but what kind of behavior would it take for someone to get himself booted out of the church?
Posted by fil (Member # 5079) on :
quote: Interesting stuff, fil. It sounds pleasantly informal. It sounds like a group who could calmly discuss differing ideas without it deteriorating into a rancorous verbal brawl.
You haven't been to any UU Church groups, have you! Actually, there is a lot of verbal brawling, discussion, argument, and so on. That is kind of how it is set up. Calm and rational is the Catholic Church where you sit/kneel/stand and say what you are expected to say at the right times, and so on. Very meditative, to be sure.
The actual services in UU Churches vary, though they tend to be structured similarly to many protestant Christian services (we have similar ancestry). Some churches are more "church" like (as mine is) and some are more...hmm...I guess less church-like. Not quite the open-ended sit down like at a Friend's gathering, but not far off.
But after hour discussions are very heated as many folks have strong opinions and like to talk about it. This church encourages discussion and frank talk and if involved with the running of a church or discussion in church, be ready. Very happy, fun and vital discussions, but heated none the less.
quote:What is the process one goes through to join the church? Baptism or common consent of the group or what? (I’m not thinking of joining – just curious.)
As for joining, it is pretty simple. Sign the book at the church. That's it. There are some ceremonies around it and recommendations to attend some discussion sessions with the pastor but like all things, it is as formal or informal as you like. You create the covenant with the church by signing the book, you pledge to support it (there is no Catholic heirarchy...the church is only as funded as members bring to it). You also support with joining committees, events, etc. (like just about every other church out there).
The church actually keeps and uses some rituals from other faiths. Christmas/Hannukah is a time that is kept sacred by many UU's as is many other faith's rituals and holidays. There isn't a "baptism" of sorts, but my daughter participated in a flower "baptism" of sorts which is a community service where the lives of the children are put in the hands of the community. People pledge to help support and raise the children like their own. That kind of thing.
But that is our church. My last church kind of bent more towards their Universalist roots and didn't do as much of the ritual stuff. We kind of like the ritual and ceremonial stuff, to a degree, and thus the move.
quote:What kind of emphasis do you place on service to others?
That is a large part of the UU religion. The church I attend is always doing some project. We sheltered some immigrant families, we participate a lot in homeless-related services, there are fund raisers, etc. Again, stuff that most good community-value churches do, regardless of creed.
quote:You mentioned reading from various books in your meetings. Is the Book of Mormon ever included in that list? If not, what would the reaction be if someone did use that book in a meeting?
As for reading from the Book of Mormon, I haven't seen it done but that doesn't mean it isn't done. I am only a fair to middling member any more (sadly, though we hope to increase our time there this year). I will definitely ask one of our pastor's if they have and maybe in what context.
The way they kind of do it is they usually have at least two readings. One is termed "from an ancient" or "sacred" source and the other from modern source (which includes writings or speeches from the past few centuries).
quote:You probably don’t call it “excommunication,” but what kind of behavior would it take for someone to get himself booted out of the church?
As for getting booted, I don't know. They really don't "boot" people that I know of. I mean, why would they? The only reason that I can think of is if someone did something criminal like steal money from the collection plate or destroy property or sexually or verbally abuse or harrass someone. It isn't like a church that would kick you out because you were gay or got a divorce or some such.
There is a steady growth of UU membership that has grown slowly but steadily by about 1-2% each year. Not staggering, but it is there. I think people just leave when they don't like it. They don't hang around to be "booted."
quote:How is the day to day business of a local group administered? You mentioned pastors. Is there a council of members who help or what?
Again, it really varies congregation to congregation, but it is probably the same as any typical church. There is an elected Board with the usual posts. The Board is responsible for the operation of the church, the buildings, fundraising, etc. There are also various committees that carry out aspects of the church such as the Social Justice Committee to do, well, Social Justice type stuff. There are Grounds committees, Choir committees, Food Committees, Religious Education Committee...well, too many to name. The charter is created and adopted and amended by vote of current church members. New Pastors are screened by smaller groups but the final choice is left up to the entire congregation. That make sense?
Great questions. Sorry I blabbed on about it. Hope that helps. I will let you know when I hear back about Mormon readings at the church. Any recommendations? I have the book upstairs as I got it to read along with the OSC books (what were those? The Earth ones? Hmmm...). I read some of it but was baffled by a lot of it. Need to dig into a bit more.
Aloha,
fil
Posted by fil (Member # 5079) on :
quote:UU is sort of like being a Rotarian, everyone and anyone can join and work to improve themselves, their family, the nation and the world as long as no one brings up religion.
You are really close. The last bit is wrong, that's all. Change it to something closer to "as long as no one tries to push their spirituality on to anyone" and you are right there.
And really, anyone can join but that is a bit too loose. The expecation is that you join because you believe in the core tenets of the church (see above) and if you don't, try some other church out.
But please, bring up religion!
Huzzah!
fil
Posted by fil (Member # 5079) on :
quote: So yes, they are very humanistic and pantheistic and so on. Fine attributes. The silly part is that because they've taken root in the USA, where all the cool kids associate with Jesus and sit on pews on Sundays and call their leaders Reverends, they've decided they want to act like that too whether or not it adds any actual meaning to their style of spirituality. In reality, I think these practices just cause confusion.
I have no idea what you mean by this. Having gone to public school in the 70's and 80's (thus my ignorance of what is "cool" nowadays) there weren't many kids who were cool AND associated with Jesus and sat in pews. The cool kids went to "St. Elsewhere" on Sunday when they were old enough to go on their own. Maybe that is changed and the cool kids associate with Jesus.
Maybe I misunderstood you, though. Can you explain?
fil
Posted by Samuel Bush (Member # 460) on :
Heated discussions, huh? Sounds even better.
fil, thanks for answering my questions - and quite well, at that. No need to apologize about "blabbing" on. It is very interesting blab.
Yes, please do let me know what you find out about any Book of Mormon use in other UU congregations. But please give me an email heads up when you post because I rarely get a chance to even lurk at Hatrack anymore. This weekend was a fluke.
As for recommendations . . . well now, let me see . . . right off hand I can recommend three or four great sermons found in 2 Nephi chapters 1-4; Mosiah chapters 2-4; and Alma chapters 7-13. And then there is the account of the birth, death, resurrection, and ministry of Jesus which is quite good. It's found in the last two chapters of Heleman through to the end of the next book which is 3 Nephi.. It's also pretty cool to read it along with the parallel accounts of the same events in the New Testament.
Yup, Card's "Earth" series was a scifi series based on the Book of Mormon. His "Alvin Maker" series is based on Joseph Smith's history.
Posted by Richard Berg (Member # 133) on :
"Cool kids" was an expression. Obviously schoolyards are not a good place to find religious tolerance. Here's a revised paragraph:
America has rather specific ideas of what constitute a "legitimate" religion. Even if one doesn't believe in a Judeo-Christian God, it is very ingrained in his culture that "religious people" are the ones who like choirs and sermons and stained glass and it's-not-really-a-solstice-we-swear holidays. So among your generally pluralistic, life-affirming religions you have those like Wicca that reject this model to conspicuously practice their magick out in the trees (hippies), and those like UU that put on a churchy face for newcomers but don't actually do anything stereotypically churchy (pansies). Both also eat babies, last I heard.
Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
fil, thanks for all the great information. I'm going to seriously check this out. I like the idea of a church that can include different beliefs. I tend to go the agnostic/transcendentalist way myself.
space opera
Posted by Rappin' Ronnie Reagan (Member # 5626) on :
quote: America has rather specific ideas of what constitute a "legitimate" religion. Even if one doesn't believe in a Judeo-Christian God, it is very ingrained in his culture that "religious people" are the ones who like choirs and sermons and stained glass and it's-not-really-a-solstice-we-swear holidays. So among your generally pluralistic, life-affirming religions you have those like Wicca that reject this model to conspicuously practice their magick out in the trees (hippies), and those like UU that put on a churchy face for newcomers but don't actually do anything stereotypically churchy (pansies). Both also eat babies, last I heard.
Are you sure you're just not projecting your rather narrow view of religion on the rest of the country? In UU churches there are sermons and choirs and holidays, and I'm sure some even have stained glass. It seems your problem with the UU church is that it doesn't make a decision on the existence of a god.
And I could insult your religion, too, if you'd like.
Posted by WheatPuppet (Member # 5142) on :
How do you get a Unitarian to leave town?
Burn a question mark on their lawn. :rimshot:
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
For the record: I wish our church did as many folk music concerts as the local Unitarian church. d
I like most folk music.
As a general idea, I'm in favor of an organization that helps people find out what they believe. And UU seems to help folks do that. It seems to fulfill the spirtual needs of its members, or rather, it enables them to fulfill their own spiritual needs. Nothing wrong with that.
[ May 31, 2004, 08:19 AM: Message edited by: Scott R ]
Posted by fil (Member # 5079) on :
quote:America has rather specific ideas of what constitute a "legitimate" religion. Even if one doesn't believe in a Judeo-Christian God, it is very ingrained in his culture that "religious people" are the ones who like choirs and sermons and stained glass and it's-not-really-a-solstice-we-swear holidays. So among your generally pluralistic, life-affirming religions you have those like Wicca that reject this model to conspicuously practice their magick out in the trees (hippies), and those like UU that put on a churchy face for newcomers but don't actually do anything stereotypically churchy (pansies). Both also eat babies, last I heard.
My first response would be "troll much?" but then I think you really mean this. By "Amwerica" I assume you mean Christian Americans, right? Even though there is a sizable portion of the country that is muslim, jewish or not religious at all.
"Stereotypically churchy" is a bit vague. What do you mean by that? If you mean as above that it is stained glass (my church has some), sermons (uh, lots of those here) and choirs (sang in ours) then you are wrong. Thankfully, it isn't all folk music (I LOVE folk music but great folk music isn't necessary great church music...and my old Catholic church had tons more...guitar and flute every week :shudder:).
I think you have some hang ups about non-Christian churches and don't know how to say it in a way that isn't remotely insulting, so you merely say it in a way that is vaguely insulting. That's cool, though. Sorry it confuses you.
Still don't get the "pansies" reference and we don't eat many babies...we tend to have a lot of vegetarians. We merely sacrifice them to our horrible masters, silly. Sheesh.
Glad to see most of the discussion is cool, though. It really is a nifty church and meets a ton of my famlies needs both socially and spiritually. And to be honest, politically. While not always overtly political, the recent bouts of anti-gay marriage stuff has caused our church to take a front line stance on this. The UU church has often been a bastion of hope for non-traditional couples to get married. By this, I mean that Catholic boy wanting to marry that lovely Jewish girl but neither family/religion has much tolerance for it. I also mean gay/lesbian marriage, which our church has been doing for decades now and has taken a strong supportive stance on.
Have a great Memorial Day!
Save me Jebus,
fil
Posted by fil (Member # 5079) on :
Sam, thanks for the suggestions. I will look those up! They sound like cool stories, especially if they synch up with the goings on in the NT. Nifty. I am wondering how much diversity exists within the Mormon church regarding interpretations of the Book of Mormon? I know it is off topic, but I am wondering how many sort of "parables" or "morality stories" exist in that vs. just history? The ancient texts we tend to read have applications today as well as then and can be re-interpreted for all times. Is the Book of Mormon that flexible and universal?
The reason I ask is because I am curious why it doesn't get read as much, either. I made a bet with a friend that they couldn't think of a religious ideology that couldn't in some way synch up within the UU setting. We have a lot of UU Christians and UU Jewish and UU pagans that all can play nice and learn from one another and feel comfortable. But I lost the bet, though, because someone brough up the Jehovah's Witnesses. I was intrigued, so I asked a co-worker about it who was JW and by golly, I lost. There is absolutely no flexibility or ease of interpretation in the teachings of JW practice that would allow it to mix with UU folks on a weekly basis. Would the LDS folks feel the same way?
We have a couple churches of LDS out here that are tight nit but I haven't heard of any cross over between our two faiths. I wonder in more populated Mormon areas if there is some crossover (I assume that everyone that grows up LDS doesn't stay LDS, just like any kid growing up in a church). Just curious how they would mix.
I don't even mean "mix" like join, either. We have guest speakers/pastors/etc. from a variety of churches that find it easy to come talk about their faith but mostly from the "Big Three" of Christianity, Muslim and Judaism. It would be neat to have a Mormon speaker come talk. Do Mormon churches do things with other churches, like our local Ecumenical groups or Interfaith groups do (they gather for social justice or community good type things).
Thanks!
Ciao,
fil
[ May 31, 2004, 12:23 PM: Message edited by: fil ]
Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
I'm really confused by some of the responses I've read on this thread. So far the unitarian church has been mocked and called pansies, among other things. I understand this is a forum where people feel free to voice their opinions, which is great. However, isn't name-calling and insults going a bit far? I don't remember ever having seen these kinds of posts on a thread about the LDS church...
space opera
Posted by fil (Member # 5079) on :
Why can't UUs sing very well in choirs?
Because they're always reading ahead to see if they agree with the words.
There, more than one can play this game!
fil
Posted by fil (Member # 5079) on :
Heck, let's get them all out there...no guarantee for quality of joke...
quote: How can you tell a Unitarian Universalist? You can't; they already know it all.
Have you heard the latest UU miracle? Someone saw the face of Ralph Waldo Emerson on a tortilla.
What did the UU who was studying Zen ask the hotdog vendor? "Make me one with everything."
There was a UU minister who was giving a sermon on the annual pledge drive: "The sermon on the amount."
What do you get when you cross a UU with a dyslexic? Someone who is not sure if he/she believes in Dog.
What do congregations do with bullies? They put them on the Board of Trustees.
What is a Unitarian Universalist? An atheist with children.
Why are UU congregations so disjointed at hymn singing? Because they are always reading a few lines ahead to see if they agree with the words.
Then of course there is the line about how the Universalists believed that God was too good to damn people, while the Unitarians believed that they were too good to be damned.
I'm not even sure if I am a UU. I suppose that removes all doubt.
If Unitarians had to form a firing squad they would arrange themselves in a circle.
Unitarian Universalists: God's Frozen People.
A UU meeting must seem strange to outsiders. A person will speak and says nothing. Nobody listens - and then everybody disagrees.
Cringe,
fil
Posted by IdemosthenesI (Member # 862) on :
Thank you so much for the plethora of information. The reason I asked was not in response to the recent inexcusable actions by stupid Texan tax collectors, but because I have been thinking about visiting a Unitarian church. I have pretty much decided to go and see what it's like.
From what I've read, it seems that UU people are just agnostics who know how to organize, which is fine with me.
One of the main reasons I have decided to stop going to my previous church (non-denominational protestant), and churches in general, is the focus on dogma and condemnation of everybody who isn't there. I always skipped the pep rallies in high school, and I have no interest in attending the religious variety. If all we can do is talk about how much better we are than the other team, count me out. I don't mean to say the topic of the sermon is always "How good Christians are" but it seemed to me that idea was ingrained in the culture of most churches out there.
I guess what I'm trying to say is I want a church that isn't secure in the fact that "we have it right, and while we aren't perfect, we've basically got it figured out."
Of course, having more Kerry votes than Bush votes in Texas is also a plus Posted by Samuel Bush (Member # 460) on :
I just read that Texas tax exemption article. Oh, them goofy bureaucrats! Ya gotta love 'em! They'd make great comic relief if they didn't cause so much grief.
It's ludicrous to deny the UU tax exemption status. Especially since they are big on service. I seem to remember that James wrote that a large part of pure and undefiled religion is to render service to one's fellow beings.
And John and John Quincy Adams were Unitarians - a fact which seems like pretty good credential all by itself.
I'd be willing to bet that some Texas bureaucrats (not to mention the ACLU) would have a massive hissy fit if the UU folks said, "Ok, since we can't have tax exempt status, how about giving us some grant money to help us out."
But of course we can't have that happen. That would violate the sacred doctrine of Separation of Church and State. I'd also be willing to bet that there are a whole barn load of groups which basically act like religions but are masquerading as "science" which are snorking down loads of Texas tax dollars. Maybe it's time to start defining them as "religions." After all, they all have their gods, preachers, unproved creeds they take on faith and heretics to be persecuted. So why not recognize them for what they are. (Hey, if it quacks like a duck . . .) Then they could all get tax exempt status too.
Wait a minute. A lot of them probably already do have tax exempt status. What a sweet deal! Tax dough and tax relief at the same time.
Hey, here's an idea: If the UU folks can't get their tax exempt status back by claiming churhhood, maybe they could get both research grants AND tax exemption by changing the name of their church . . . er, I mean, their ORGANIZATION to something like, The United Universal Science of Human Improvement or maybe . . .
Whoa! Sorry about the rant there, folks! That article brought on an irony spasm. But I'm okay now.
Well, have a great holiday anyway.
Sam
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
Wow, I just read the article, too.
quote: The disputed tax dollars don't amount to much, but the comptroller has taken a stand on principle, Ancira said.
"The issue as a whole is, Do you want to open up a system where there can be abuse or fraud, or where any group can proclaim itself to be a religious organization and take advantage of the exception?" he said.
Huh?
The Unitarian Church is not "any group" that just happened to "proclaim itself to be a religious organization" just to get tax-exempt status. It's a recognized religious group that has been around for a very long time, and that is recognized as such by other states.
Is the Texas comptroller going to deny tax-exmept status to the Buddhists, too, because, as the article says "Buddhism...does not mandate belief in a supreme being"?
This is an idiotic decision. I sure hope it gets overturned. Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
"However, isn't name-calling and insults going a bit far? I don't remember ever having seen these kinds of posts on a thread about the LDS church..."
Yes, I was wondering the same thing.
And Fil, I would guess that Richard was saying that UU members are "pansies" because they do not take a strong stand for or against things. "Pansy" is a term, like "sissy," which implies homosexuality.
Thanks for all the great, clearly stated info.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Actually, I've seen name calling and insults specifically about Catholicism, LDS, and Islam, just off the top of my head. Also similar insults aimed at Christianity in general.
No, none of that should be acceptable, including calling a church "pansies." But the UU isn't receiving any unprecedented treatment here.
Dagonee
Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
Dagonee, thanks for pointing that out. I suppose as a new member I hadn't yet encountered posts of those type. While I certainly don't agree with the creeds of several religions that other members follow, I don't think I would ever sink to a level of name-calling and insults. Smack me if I ever do, 'k?
space opera
Posted by fil (Member # 5079) on :
quote:And Fil, I would guess that Richard was saying that UU members are "pansies" because they do not take a strong stand for or against things. "Pansy" is a term, like "sissy," which implies homosexuality.
Yeah, I figured, but I just wanted to hear him say it. Actually, the UU folks do take a stand on things, but the existence/form/presense of god(s) is not one of them. In terms of human rights, rights to speech, free expression of religion, women's rights, civil rights, etc. we take a very strong stand.
Glad to share the info! It is so rare to hear people ask about UU stuff. Hope anyone who is looking into really enjoys it and finds the right congregation. Don't be afraid to look around. We have been in 4 now, 1 we liked but outgrew, 1 we like and want to get to know better( the current one), 1 we had to move away from and 1 we just didn't fit. Just have to find the one right for you.
Good luck!
Ciao,
fil
Posted by Samuel Bush (Member # 460) on :
fil, I’m lovin’ those jokes.
quote: how much diversity exists within the Mormon church regarding interpretations of the Book of Mormon?
Not much. We tend to pretty much agree on most points in the Book of Mormon. Not totally though. There are a few things that don’t seem too clear and are open to further study. And then there are deeper layers of meaning that you sometimes discover –– even after you thought you already had a good understanding of a concept or event.
Besides the Book of Mormon, we have the Bible and two other books of scripture, and also the ongoing teachings of the church leaders in Salt Lake City. The whole package amounts to a standard set of creeds, ordinances, and doctrines that we teach. You don’t see much disagreement.
quote: how many sort of "parables" or "morality stories" exist in that vs. just history?
There are parables and such in the Book of Mormon, but it is pretty clear when you read them that that is what they are. But we accept the stories of people and events as real. We accept the Bible as literal too –– mostly. For instance, Abraham and Noah were real people and the Flood actually happened –– that sort of thing. On the other hand some other stories are questionable. Like, did Lot’s wife really get transformed into a pillar of salt? And did Elishah really call forth a big ol’ hairy bear to munch on some rude boys? It wouldn’t surprise us to find out that some of those things are just moral tales.
But then, valuable life lessons can be learned from allegories as well and actual events.
quote: The ancient texts we tend to read have applications today as well as then and can be re-interpreted for all times. Is the Book of Mormon that flexible and universal?
That's certainly a good thing to do. We are supposed to apply the scriptures to ourselves and learn what we are ought to do.
We believe that the Book of Mormon was written specifically to us. And when I say “us” I mean all people in this modern age of the earth –– now. The prophet and seer Mormon saw our day and the problems we would face. He knew what depravities had destroyed his own civilization. And they were the same types of things he knew we would have to deal with. So he included, in the book, dire warning to us about what we need to watch out for. Conversely, he also told us the things we needed to do in order be prosperous and happy, individually and as nations.
You asked about compatibility. Well, our doctrines and ordinances are inflexible. So in that regard, there would be little compatibility. But there is no prohibition against us visiting and worshiping with other churches form time to time. (As long as the folks in those churches don’t object.) I’ve visited other churches’ services before and quite enjoyed them. (The Catholic church here has a great choir.) I don’t see a UU church listed in our phone book, though. Alas.
There is also no prohibition against one of us speaking at another church if invited. So if you wanted to try to arrange something like that, go for it. Although we do try to avoid getting into vicious debates with folks. It’s counterproductive and often results in bitter feelings. But hey, friendly discussions are great fun.
I think it would be rare, maybe unheard of, to find an actively devout Mormon joining another church and trying to juggle dual memberships. That’s probably because we are one of those churches that believe we have the only true and authorized church of God and that our doctrines are true. (I know that attitude rankles some people, but there it is.) The Methodists recently reiterated a policy that they do not recognize Mormon baptisms as valid in the Methodist church. It’s a reasonable policy, and I have zero problem with that. After all, we don’t recognize baptisms of other churches either. Fair is fair. There are Mormons who have quit the church and joined other churches. So there’s probably some of those folks who have found their way into the UU church.
So anyway, we believe we’ve got the real deal. But we are always being counseled that, although we should be confident in our faith, there’s no justification for becoming arrogant and obnoxious about it. A lot of other good folks out there pretty much have their ducks in a row, so to speak, and deserve respect. We know we don’t have a monopoly on knowledge and wisdom. One of our scriptures tells us, “And as all have not faith, seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom, seek learning even by study and also by faith.” (Doctrine and Covenants section 109:7) We are supposed to be good neighbors and friends and to be easy to get along with. We try.
Which sort of leads into your last question. Although we are not particularly ecumenical organizationally speaking, we are encouraged to be actively involved in good causes, politics, community projects, etc. To do what we can to make our corner of the world a better place for our having lived there.
On a practical level, this means that you could do a lot worse than be pals with a couple of Mormons. At the very least, you can be confident that neither one will drink all your beer. (that’s a joke BTW)
But seriously there is one other point that might interest you. The Book of Mormon has had a lot of bad press over the years. I only mention it because I wouldn’t be surprised if you find that it hasn’t been used very much as a teaching tool outside of the Mormon faith. But I’m still curious about what you find out about that. I’ve been known to guess wrong about things.
Well, I apologize for not managing to fit the kitchen sink into this post. Maybe next time.
Sam
[ June 01, 2004, 04:11 AM: Message edited by: Samuel Bush ]
Posted by jexx (Member # 3450) on :
I am finding this discussion enormously satisfying. Some time ago, a friend and I were discussing religion, and she told me I was a Unitarian. There was a quiz (yes, I know, pop psychology, but still interesting), and what do you know? I came up "Unitarian Universalist".
I've never attended a UU church, but I am definitely interested. It seems to line up squarely with my 'searching' needs and my 'humanitarian' beliefs. I also appreciate the tolerance of mixed marriages (faith-wise and gender-wise).
Please keep this thread going.
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
For those that may feel Christianity is "correct to you", but have been burnt by what you feel as more restrictive churches, check to see if there is a UCC (United Church of Christ, NOT Church(es) of Christ) church near you. The UCC is very flexible (within the boundaries of Christianity), and the joke is often that UCC stands for "Unitarians Considering Christ".
One warning though, the individual churches in the denomination are empowered to be quite individualistic, so there is a broad range of church dispositions, from conservative to nigh-Unitarian, and a lot in between.
Good luck to everyone in their soul-seeking.
-Bok
Posted by fil (Member # 5079) on :
quote:One warning though, the individual churches in the denomination are empowered to be quite individualistic, so there is a broad range of church dispositions, from conservative to nigh-Unitarian, and a lot in between.
Absolutely. This was the last Christian church I checked out before heading into UU stuff. As a whole, it is really cool but a church I happened to end up in it was made up of, no offense, but an older crowd who didn't like their church diluted with too much outside of scripture and worship. They weren't much into community activities, social justice, etc. Different strokes, I guess.
UCC is probably what Unitarians would look like if UU's didn't join up a while back. Unitarians (without the Universalists) were Christians, just ones that didn't take to hear the Trinity aspect of religion. There was more to that, I am sure, but my history there is weak. Some famous Unitarians like the Adam's boys (and Abigail, to boot) shared company with Jefferson and many say that old wizard Ben Franklin was one, at least in spirit (based on his religious writings at the time). He died before the Unitarian Church was founded in the US.
Eh, who knows.
fil
Posted by fil (Member # 5079) on :
Samuel, it is interesting to find a church with such agreed upon tenets! Very rare. Maybe that is why there hasn't been a lot of Mormon/UU crossovers. Where do ex-Mormon's go? We have a lot of ex Catholics ( ) and other ex-Christians along with folks noted in this thread, like "seekers" and transendentalists, pagans and Buddhists. Some belong to more than one church, too. We have UU Wiccans who do churchy stuff with us (more in other congregations than ours, sadly...) but also do Wiccan-related rituals in their own crews.
Anyway, though, I think you have the measure of why we don't have a lot of Mormon/UU cross over. And if they aren't doing many joint religion stuff, there you go. Not like we would argue with a Mormon speaker, though! We are good hosts and only argue with those who are wanting it.
But the bigger point is that as churches go, the Mormon and UU churches are pretty much opposite. While the UU congregations tend to be seekers the Mormons sound like...er...Found?!
Forgive my ignorance of things Mormon/LDS. I hung with some LDS families as a kid as they had a wicked basketball court they let the neighborhood use, but beyond that, I don't know much. Can anyone join or do you have to be born into it or marry into it? Are the kids going on missions out to convert or merely "Spread the word" as it were?
Thanks for the answers, by the way. Well put and clearly stated. And without judgement, which I find (on the internet) very refreshing!
A question for discussion on this topic is the difference between Seeking and Finding. I mean, in terms of faith, we will really only know for sure if we were right or wrong when we close our eyes for the last time. If they open again on some new plane of existence or stay closed forever, it is a one-way trip (well, except for those who believe in reincarnation....hmmmm...).
Anyway, but I wonder do all seekers want to find that code, ritual, story, belief etc. that will shore up faith and make their life...whatever it is they want out it? Or is it the journey and lack of solid faith that works so well.
With the growth industry in religion going to the more hard-core, rule-driven churches I think most people like their religion a bit more rooted and predictable with clearly defined dogma and beliefs.
Just wondering. How does the Mormon church support members who are "seekers?" I mean, those people who have doubts and ask questions about literal Bible stuff (easy target, but where lots of questions come from) or the harder stuff like "but really, why Salt Lake?"
Thanks for the discussion!
ciao,
fil
[ June 01, 2004, 03:24 PM: Message edited by: fil ]
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
As I understand it, you shouldn't be Mormon if you're actually seeking; when you sign on the dotted line, one of the qualifications is that you've felt the presence of God validating your choice. This seems to preclude skepticism, IMO.
Posted by Zalmoxis (Member # 2327) on :
It depends on what your skeptical about.
EDIT: 'you are' not 'your'
[ June 01, 2004, 03:27 PM: Message edited by: Zalmoxis ]
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:Can anyone join or do you have to be born into it or marry into it? Are the kids going on missions out to convert or merely "Spread the word" as it were?
Anyone can join. The missionaries are there to teach the gospel and to baptize those who are ready, so their purpose is to facilitate a strong, lasting conversion.
quote:How does the Mormon church support members who are "seekers?" I mean, those people who have doubts and ask questions about literal Bible stuff (easy target, but where lots of questions come from) or the harder stuff like "but really, why Salt Lake?"
Are you asking what is the place for doubt? Well, it's inevitable, isn't it? I mean, before you can get your own answers, you have to have the questions and a period of asking them. So before anyone gets a definite answer, they need to doubt.
Brigham Young (the second president of the church 1846 - 187*mumble*) said that all latter-day saints have an obligation to ask and to know for themselves. There's lots of places for doubts and questions - seeking and getting answers to that is how you grow.
If the question is how much doubt can you have and still get baptized, then the basic questions cover a testimony of God the Father, Jesus Christ as the Savior, the Book of Mormon is scripture, modern revelation (prophet is living today and leading the church), and that Joseph Smith was a prophet, acting for the Lord when he translated the Book of Mormon and founded the church.
--------
There is a difference between those are still seeking and want to join without being sure, and those who were members before and have new-found questions. You need to have your prayers answered and be sure of your choice before getting baptized, but if you were baptized before and find yourself with doubts and questions, you certainly shouldn't leave while seeking answers to them.
[ June 01, 2004, 04:29 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
Tom is Technically, if you are an official (baptizied) member of the Chuch of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints then you are not (or should no be) a seeker, someon who is unsure if it is the one true faith. Non to say that people with doubts are some how no members, just like every other Church, the Mormon Church has members whose faith ranges all the way from just about apostate to ones who woul die over their convectins; however, before a baptism, you are asked a series of questions to which your answer has o b a full "yes" to, questions about you faith.
But, the Church is very enouraging of people "investigating" the Church. The Mormon misionaries try to fin these people, bring them to Church and teach them the Gospel. Anyone interested in seeking the truth is welcome into Church (there are actualy instructions in the D&C about not letting people into a Sunday meeting if they are not seeking for truth, but unless you start getting beligerent or something everone will be thrilled to have you there). I did 9 months of this before joining, most do less, but some people spend year like that, the more you know the better.
Hobbes Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
Or I could just type really slowly, whatever.
As a side note, Brigham Young (2nd prophet of the Church) took 2 years to join, there really is no limit to it.
Hobbes Posted by jexx (Member # 3450) on :
More about UU please.
I don't really have any questions in mind right now, I just didn't want this to fall off the front page just yet.
*grin*
Posted by fil (Member # 5079) on :
In lieu of any new conversation, another UU Joke:
quote:When the fire breaks out on church row, the churches are empty.
When the priest hears the news, he runs into the church long enough to bring out the consecrated wine and wafers. The rabbi rescues the Ark of the Torah. Of course the UU minister and the church council rushed into the church and held A DISCUSSION GROUP about what to save.
Eventually they emerged carrying the conference table.
There.
fil
Posted by fil (Member # 5079) on :
I think the discussion about the LDS compared to the UU is interesting. With UU, there really isn't a "final" step (beyond the grave, of course). There are ceremonies that mark certain events but the "search" goes on and on.
Which makes me wonder. If you buy into a particular faith that, once signed on the dotted line like Tom put, expects one to hew close to the path, why go to church any more?
I am asking this innocently, really. For me, church is the sort of endless quest to find out more about my spirituality, if there is any, and more importantly how to give my daughter a foundation that will allow her to find her own spirituality. She may very well choose to leave the UU church to attend something else, but I want her to have as much of a grounding in the possibilities before that happens. It is a place to ask questions, explore ideas, etc.
But for a faith that pretty much says you HAVE to be at the point of understanding and total devotion at the time of signing on (baptism) seems counter to ongoing religion. It is like going to birthing classes long after the child is born!
Does this make sense? If not seeking, why seek out more information about a church you already buy into on a week to week basis?
Just curious.
As a side-note, at what age are kids expected to make the leap of faith in Mormon traditions (if that makes sense)? This was what kind of turned me off of Catholicism. It asks teens at a very sensitive age to buy into a religion at an odd time, to me. I don't know when a good time is to "decide" to join a church (by that I mean the Catholic rite of Confirmation). It was after Confirmation that I quit, oddly enough. I think you have to be an adult to "sign on" as a member of a UU church. You can participate as a family member and do all the things kids and teens do at church, but you sign on as an adult (and there is some ceremony around this, of course, that varies from church to church).
fil
Posted by WheatPuppet (Member # 5142) on :
I hope it comes with the territory to have a sense of humor about your denomination if you're a Unitarian Universalist.
Posted by fil (Member # 5079) on :
Don't get me started on Catholic jokes.
fil
Posted by jexx (Member # 3450) on :
I think that the deal with church (and other congregational-type religious meeting places) is...it is a support group and a fellowship. That's my understanding. Not so much the quest for spirituality as a place to worship together (praise) and ask for help (of God, of your fellow congregation members).
YMMV, of course.
edited because I worded something poorly
[ June 01, 2004, 11:06 PM: Message edited by: jexx ]
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
jexx, that was quite true of my church growing up; the coffee hours often extended to two or three hours! Just talking about each other's lives, ambitions, problems.
-Bok
Posted by fil (Member # 5079) on :
You know I have been a UU too long when I forget WORSHIP! Thanks for pointing that out. That is probably the biggest difference in UU churches from others. There is no "worship" per se going on. I mean, if someone in their heart of hearts is doing a bit of worship while the service is going on, cool, but even the more Christian/other centered services never focus on worship. It isn't like there isn't reverence for the ancient wisdoms or standing in awe of the mysteries of the universe or even our humble little planet. There is a lot of that going on, but there is no fealty towards them, only a deep awe and overriding stewardship towards things natural. In terms of spirituality, it is all a mystery worth exploring with or amongst others.
Worship *smacks forehead* Totally forgot about that.
fil
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
On Baptism being the end of a spiritual journey:
quote: 2 Nephi 31
17 Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter. For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost.
18 And then are ye in this strait and narrow path which leads to eternal life; yea, ye have entered in by the gate; ye have done according to the commandments of the Father and the Son; and ye have received the Holy Ghost, which witnesses of the Father and the Son, unto the fulfilling of the promise which he hath made, that if ye entered in by the way ye should receive.
19 And now, my beloved brethren, after ye have gotten into this strait and narrow path, I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save.
20 Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.
Baptism is just the gate; commitment to a faith is the start of the path.
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Where do ex-Mormon's go? We have a lot of ex Catholics ( ![[Wave]](graemlins/wave.gif)
) and other ex-Christians along with folks noted in this thread, like "seekers" and transendentalists, pagans and Buddhists. Some belong to more than one church, too. We have UU Wiccans who do churchy stuff with us (more in other congregations than ours, sadly...) but also do Wiccan-related rituals in their own crews.