1) How contagious are the various kinds of herpes? If someone has angry blisters all over their mouth and down their neck, and admit that they have "a form of herpes", is there a risk of contracting it if you share a small office space, computers, eat dinner in that office, and the person has had a runny nose and a cough? Is this person justified in insisting that it's not contagious? Is herpes ever not contagious?
2) If you're in a group using a 4-machine computer lab/office, and one of your groupmates allows his girlfriend, who has this form of herpes with full-blown blister symptoms, to use the office/computers even though she's not in the same class and has her own office for her own project, how justified is the group in asking the boyfriend to ask her to use her own space for the rest of the semester? Is this no better than firing someone because they have AIDS? My groupmates and I are seriously concerned about this, and we've repeatedly confronted the guy in our group and told him that it would make us feel a lot better if she wasn't in such close contact with us, especially since she's not supposed to be there in the first place. We aren't putting ourselves at risk for any form of STD in any other way that we know of, and if we did end up contracting it from her through this office, it would follow us our families for the rest of our lives. It's hard to see whether or not we're overreacting and crossing that line between protecting ourselves and persecuting her.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Obsessive Compulsive Disorder responds well to both pharmaceuticals and Behavioral Cognitive Therapy.
I'd go the route of deciding how tight you want office use by non-workers to be generally.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
Hmmm..
I know there is one form of Herpes that causes the fever blisters on the lips that isn't really that contagious or bad -- it just never totally goes away for those who have it.
But I don't know much about this. Hopefully CT or Xnera or someone can answer. I'm sure you can find a lot of information on the different types of Herpes on an internet search.
Farmgirl
Posted by Anon E. Mouse (Member # 6542) on :
[edit: to Pooka]
Uh... so you're saying I'm overreacting, then?
[ May 11, 2004, 08:57 AM: Message edited by: Anon E. Mouse ]
Posted by Risuena (Member # 2924) on :
My mom has the type of herpes that causes blisters around the mouth. She's had it as long as I can remember yet my father, brother and I do not have it. I'm pretty certain it spreads by contact with the infected area. So basically as long as you don't touch any of her blisters you should be fine. I don't think you need to worry about it.
Posted by Anon E. Mouse (Member # 6542) on :
What if she touches the blisters, then uses the keyboards and mice?
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Does the boyfriend have blisters too?
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
Clorox wipes. I use them on keyboards in public areas anyway..... You never know where anyone's hands have been..
Farmgirl
[ May 11, 2004, 09:15 AM: Message edited by: Farmgirl ]
Posted by Anon E. Mouse (Member # 6542) on :
He doesn't, but we're sort of assuming that he has it, too. It doesn't really bother us, because everything we've read says that herpes is at it's most contagious when the blisters are present.
We did buy lysol and the clorox wipes (though only the lysol says that it kills the herpes virus) when we found out about this. I've never bought any anti-bacterial products before this in my life, unless bathroom 409 counts. I've never been worried about contagion until now. Somthing about the "there is no cure" thing.
The guy keeps saying that it's no big deal, that something like 50% of the population has it, but I'm not buying that. I don't have it now, and I'm not putting myself into situations other than this where I could expect to get it. Maybe if you have it it doesn't seem like a big deal, but if I have a choice between having herpes and not having herpes, it seems like a pretty big deal to me.
Posted by Theca (Member # 1629) on :
Herpes simplex viruses can ONLY be transmitted by intimate contact with a person shedding virus. Don't kiss her, don't come in contact with her saliva, don't touch lesions on her face.
Even if you did take your hand and touch her neck, you wouldn't get it unless you had a break in the skin of your hand.
You can't get it by touching office equipment that she has touched.
I do hope she has a doctor and has been properly diagnosed and is being treated.
Posted by Anon E. Mouse (Member # 6542) on :
Thanks, Theca. So do you think we're overreacting? How long can the virus live on something like a keyboard? I could easily see her coughing or something and getting it onto the keyboard, and I often have cuts on my hands and fingers.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
First off, there are two types of herpes. Oral herpes is NOT the same as the STD (type 1 v. type 2).
It is spread by direct contact with mucus or saliva, usually by kissing or sharing items with an infected person, such as eating utensils or towels.
People who do not show signs of oral herpes can still spread the virus.
The infection is contagious until the mouth sores are gone and blisters are scabbed over.
Infected people should not be around infants under 1 month old, people with weak immune systems (from cancer, AIDS, etc.) or people with skin problems.
Your child can return to school or daycare when fever is gone and mouth sores are healed. If mouth sores keep coming back, the child can still go to school but should not share eating utensils.
Don't share eating utensils with her, or lick your mouse or keyboard. And if it makes you feel safer, try Farmgirl's suggestion. If that doesn't work, pooka's might have some merit.
[Or what Theca said.]
Posted by Theca (Member # 1629) on :
I wasn't able to find out how long herpes simplex can live outside the body, and I have to go to work now. It appears that it must die off almost immediately, however. Healthcare workers can pick it up, and wrestlers can transmit it during sweaty wrestling matches, but in your described office setting I see no evidence that you are at risk. It is NOT usually transmitted thru respiratory droplets so her coughing/sneezing should not put you at risk.
Gotta go.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"The guy keeps saying that it's no big deal, that something like 50% of the population has it, but I'm not buying that."
It's more like a third of the population, but yeah.
Speaking as someone who has herpes, it's not really a big deal.
Posted by Anon E. Mouse (Member # 6542) on :
Okay, guys, thanks a lot. So now I feel a little bad for us teaming up and kicking her out of the office, though she still wasn't supposed to be there.
What's the etiquette, if you will, of such a situation? I know that we all would have felt a LOT better if, instead of just continuing to use our computers, she or he had sat down and explained to us what was going on and what the specific risks were, rather than just blowing us off and saying there was no risk every time someone mentioned it. But at the same time, I can also understand that it might not be her responsibility to explain anything to us just because we were nervous.
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
So, let me just get this straight.
There was someone in the office who had a medical condition that wasn't contagious but looked gross and made you feel a little squicky. You and your coworkers ask this person about the condition and they swear up and down that it isn't contagious. You continue badgering them and harassing them (as has probably happened many times in their life, if it's as bad as you say) and still continued doing their job and assuring you that the condition wasn't contagious. Then you and your coworkers band together and toss this person from your department rather than looking any of this information up? At which point you blame them for not sitting down with the latest medical journals and maybe some pie charts and giving a detailed explanation of why you're over reacting.
Huh.
I'd say you're a bit of a dick. Since you asked my opinion and all.
Posted by Anon E. Mouse (Member # 6542) on :
Fair enough.
First of all, this isn't a work office, it's a classroom lab that my student group was given for the semester to complete a project. The girl in question is in a different but similar class, and was also given her own space, but chooses to use ours so that she can get lots of help from our groupmember, her boyfriend.
As far as whether or not it's contagious, everything we can find says it is. See rivka's above post.
quote:The infection is contagious until the mouth sores are gone and blisters are scabbed over.
It is contagious. Saying it isn't is a lie. rivka's post also says that if you have a full-blown case of it, you should avoid contact with anyone with skin problems, and we do have another group member with eczema.
We've felt terrible for even bringing it up with the boyfriend, our groupmember, but aren't these vaild concerns? Where is the line? Exactly how contagious or how bad does a person's disease have to be before the people around them can express their discomfort?
[ May 11, 2004, 10:07 AM: Message edited by: Anon E. Mouse ]
Posted by Theca (Member # 1629) on :
Those points were taken from rivka's post, not mine.
Posted by Anon E. Mouse (Member # 6542) on :
Ack! I'm sorry, I'll edit...
Posted by Sweet William (Member # 5212) on :
I know that we all would have felt a LOT better if, instead of just continuing to use our computers, she or he had sat down and explained to us what was going on and what the specific risks were, rather than just blowing us off and saying there was no risk every time someone mentioned it.
We live in some kind of weird day and age where you get vilified if you are worried about your own health. You had a perfect right to not want people using your computer for whatever reason.
I don't like people using my desk or computer around here, and they're all perfectly healthy looking, for the most part.
Once, in an office, this woman (who was constantly suffering from an ear infection) was freqently using my telephone. I had this big office with two computer workstations and two telephones, so she thought she would just pop around the corner when she didn't want to make a personal call from her cubicle. I was gone from my office about half of the time on busy days, so she'd just sneak in.
Anyway, I caught a particularly nasty ear infection from her (I think). It was so bad, that it actually did damage to the little canal thingy that drains your ear. If I don't clean that ear out every single day with a q-tip, I get another infection. Gross story, but you have a perfect right to not have people with gross health things going on (contagious or not) using your office stuff.
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
You CAN NOT get herpes from the sort of contact that you will have with this person in an office/computer lab type of setting.
Did you read Theca's posts?
quote:Herpes simplex viruses can ONLY be transmitted by intimate contact with a person shedding virus. Don't kiss her, don't come in contact with her saliva, don't touch lesions on her face.
Even if you did take your hand and touch her neck, you wouldn't get it unless you had a break in the skin of your hand.
You can't get it by touching office equipment that she has touched.
quote:I wasn't able to find out how long herpes simplex can live outside the body... It appears that it must die off almost immediately, however. Healthcare workers can pick it up, and wrestlers can transmit it during sweaty wrestling matches, but in your described office setting I see no evidence that you are at risk. It is NOT usually transmitted thru respiratory droplets so her coughing/sneezing should not put you at risk.
Yes, you are seriously overreacting.
And I am seriously disturbed by the type of prejudice the attitudes of you and your co-workers represent.
[ May 11, 2004, 10:19 AM: Message edited by: Ela ]
Posted by Sweet William (Member # 5212) on :
I'd say you're a bit of a dick. Since you asked my opinion and all.
Bob, why aren't she and the boyfriend dicks for screwing around with everyone's computer, without their permission?
And, yeah, if they're insisting that herpes isn't contagious, then they need to provide pie charts as well as double-blind, peer-reviewed studies (IMHO).
Posted by Sweet William (Member # 5212) on :
And I am seriously disturbed by the type of prejudice the attitudes of you and your co-workers are showing.
Oh puhleeze. Could you possibly be any more politically correct?
Listen, I hear people coughing up a lung around here in the winter. I don't go make a medical study. I buy them some clorox wipes, some Kleenex tissues, and tell them to stop coughing as they walk into my office. Oh yeah, and I tell them to take the day off. What is so wrong about not wanting to get sick?
Posted by Anon E. Mouse (Member # 6542) on :
You know, I could so easily see myself on the moral high horse that some of you seem to be on, just a week ago I probably would have joined you in pointing fingers and calling someone who's reacted as I have a "dick".
But I'm scared. I've got these two people, one with herpes and one who probably has it himself, telling me that it's no big deal, everyone has it, and anyhow it's not contagious at all. But then I read through information about it on the internet, and EVERYTHING says it IS contagious, ESPECIALLY now. So I feel like I'm not exactly hearing the truth from them, which makes me even more scared. And they tell me it's not a big deal, but man! I don't want to go through the rest of my life with flareups like she's having! I don't want to have to worry about getting a flareup when I'm pregnant and passing it on to my future children, or not being able to kiss them whenever I want to. It's really freaking scary, and getting all of this mixed information about it just makes it worse.
But if you want to just label me a monster because I've reacted this way, fine. It makes me wonder, though, if you've ever been in the position I'm in now.
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
I agree that people should not come to work with contagious upper respiratory infections of the type you are describing, but herpes does not fall into this category.
And your sarcasm about being politically correct was totally uncalled for.
Posted by Sweet William (Member # 5212) on :
Anon, you're fine.
If you don't want to take any chances, you shouldn't have to.
If she needs her boyfriend's help so much, maybe he can go study with her in her assigned office area.
It's not like you're denying them a college degree, you're just asking them to leave your computer and other equipment alone.
Since they've demonstrated their unwillingness to comply with your wishes, you have a perfect right to ban them from your area until they do comply. Period.
Posted by Sweet William (Member # 5212) on :
And your sarcasm about being politically correct was totally uncalled for.
It wasn't sarcasm. Your answer was blinded by political correctness. Clearly you have no real world experience.
And calling someone "prejudiced" is called for?
[ May 11, 2004, 10:38 AM: Message edited by: Sweet William ]
Posted by Anon E. Mouse (Member # 6542) on :
Ela has plenty of "real world experience", William, I'm sure.
As to whether or not I'm predjudiced... I don't know... I don't feel like I'm pre-judging her.... I'm scared of something I see as a threat to my health and my family's health, but I don't think any less of her as a person or anything. Once the symptoms have calmed down, I won't be as nervous about this. But I don't know, maybe this is enough to put me in the KKK category for some people.
I guess I'm not really telling the whole story, either. Yesterday, when one of our officemates walked in and found her there despite our request to the guy the night before, she was surprised. The girl immediately lit into the groupmate, telling her that she wasn't contagious and that we shouldn't be telling her to use her own office. When the argument died down and they were both back at work, the girl for some reason decided to switch to a different computer every 10 minutes for the rest of her time there, until she had used them all. Since she's never done anything like this before and since nothing was wrong with any of the computers, it really looked like she was deliberately trying to piss off or intimidate the group member who was there.
[ May 11, 2004, 10:43 AM: Message edited by: Anon E. Mouse ]
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
Anon, I understand your concern. As a nurse, I have worked with many patients who have herpes. I really don't think you have anything to worry about, as I said above, because the virus is not transmitted by the type of contact that you will have with the infected person. As a nurse, I have had much closer contact with infected persons and have never been infected.
I didn't mean to label you a monster, and I am sorry that it came off that way.
Posted by Anon E. Mouse (Member # 6542) on :
Thanks, Ela. I don't know how you do it. Again, I've never ever been the type to worry about catching things from people. This has really caught me by surprise. Part of it is the uncurable aspect, I hate anything that's permanent, especially something like this that would seriously impact my life and the lives of those around me if it flared up on a regular basis the way it's flaring up for her. Part of it is their total nonchalance and dismissal of my concerns when it seems obvious to me that there's at least some risk.
Working in a hospital with people more contagious than this with more serious diseases than this.... I'm starting to realize that I'd never have the courage for that.
[ May 11, 2004, 10:50 AM: Message edited by: Anon E. Mouse ]
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
The main things that worry me, working in a hospital, are TB and Hepatitis C, and that's the truth.
[ May 11, 2004, 10:52 AM: Message edited by: Ela ]
Posted by Anon E. Mouse (Member # 6542) on :
And the more I think about it, the more I realize that it's the invisible nature of the virus that makes me so afraid of it. Okay, so it's only transmitted through direct contact with something like saliva. I stand there in the office, looking at the computers, wondering if any saliva has come into contact with anything. Is it okay to touch this keyboard? Can I use this cup? Was this fork individually wrapped, or should I go find a new one? Are there cuts on my fingers? Has this napkin been used before? Can I pick at my teeth or my nose or my eyes without worrying? Is she so angry with us that she would have deliberately sabotaged the equipment?
I can't see it, so it could be nowhere or it could be everywhere, on anything. I can't fight it, because I have no idea where, if anywhere, it might be. And I'm scared, and I hate it.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Man, I suppose I shouldn't start listing the actually infectious diseases that you COULD be catching right now. Posted by celia60 (Member # 2039) on :
But Tom, I've already been not starting that list!
Posted by Anon E. Mouse (Member # 6542) on :
How many of them are permanent, though?
Posted by celia60 (Member # 2039) on :
Ask yourself if you really want an answer to that.
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
It is always a good idea to wash your hands before eating, or even before touching your face, especially your mouth and eyes, when you are touching objects that other people are also touching.
As for utensils and such, of course make sure they are clean and unused before using them.
Posted by AmkaProblemka (Member # 6495) on :
Another nail in the coffin:
My husband has the mouth blister herpes. He feels it when it is coming on and then won't kiss me on the lips until the scab is gone. We have, however, kissed everywhere else on the face and hands and he has touched my face. I am fairly sure we've accidently shared drinking glasses during this time. We've driven the same car, used the same computer keyboard and been far closer than you would ever get to the person in that office.
In over thirteen years I have not yet contracted the disease.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
The family of Herpes viruses include the virus that causes chickenpox, too. They are characterized by their predilection to lie dormant in nerve cell ganglia and then reactivate in times of stress on the nerve cell.
When chickenpox reactivates, it's called "shingles." There is nothing inherently dirty about Herpes viruses -- they are just another type of virus.
We did previously think Herpes Simplex Type I to be primarily associated with oral lesions and Type II to be associated with genital lesions, but that is actually reversing secondary to the rising incidence of oral sex. Again, the viruses themselves aren't inherently "dirty" -- they just infect where they are exposed by close contact.
Given that the initial Herpes outbreak is the worst, and that subsequent outbreaks tend to be progressively less severe, and given that Herpes viruses can cross the placenta (as one of the "ToRCH" infections) -- you might well make the case that it's much better to be exposed to Herpes before pregnancy than during. I wouldn't seek it out myself, but I would be much much more worried about a new case of Herpes during pregnancy than just a prior history. Same as for some other viruses such as CMV.
I will look up more specific info for you later. Meanwhile, try checking out emedicine.com. Most people show evidence of exposure to at least one serotype of HSV before adulthood (thought to be usually through an asymptomatic person shedding the virus in salvia, as when a relative kisses a child on the cheek). This early exposure may not always be a bad thing -- remember, you want to avoid outbreaks during pregnancy, as there would be a higher transmission rate to the baby, and having antibodies already would be protective. And the worst outbreak is usually the first. Many people hardly notice it if they've had it for decades.
It can be a dangerous virus ... just like chickenpox. Which is why children should be vaccinated.
[ May 11, 2004, 12:26 PM: Message edited by: ClaudiaTherese ]
Posted by Suneun (Member # 3247) on :
I worried about herpes because I had an apartment-mate who has oral herpes.
I checked. The virus dies as it dries at room temperature. It's theoretically possible to transfer the virus on a damp towel immediately after contact with an open sore, but it's not documented. When it comes to other objects, it's really practically impossible.
quote:Because HSV dies quickly with drying at room temperature, spread from objects like bath towels (fomites) is unusual.
quote:The virus cannot survive for more than 10 seconds outside the body and dies quickly on exposure to air. One cannot get herpes from casual contact, the work place or toilet seats. The literature indicates more rarely, transmission without even an active lesion.
I think you should apologize to them for over-reacting.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
The mouth blister kind is actually very, very common. It's sort of just a mild annoyance. It's dormant most of the time unless it's triggered by something, usually a cold or something, sometimes if you've been to the dentist (the equipment can irritate the lips, especially if you get it on the corners of your mouth).
Amka, has your husband tried Abreva?
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
I would say that, regardless of the health issue, you have every right to ask her not to use your computer space when she's not assigned to it. It's as simple as that.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
That's fine and all, but also (as others have said) recognie that the oral sort of herpes really isn't something "dirty." I think your fears about it come from the idea that herpes=STD=dirty bad sex.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:Is this person justified in insisting that it's not contagious?
No, they aren't. Because it is contagious, albeit under specific circumstances.
quote:It's hard to see whether or not we're overreacting and crossing that line between protecting ourselves and persecuting her.
I think you have crossed the line between self-protection and overreaction and persecution if you continue to insist that the g/f use other spaces and computers, on the basis of her being a carrier alone.
At first, I can understand you're being concerned. I say that as someone who knew before reading the thread that you can't contract any form of herpes without some saliva contact onto an open cut, or somehow past the skin barrier. This is, however, what I think you should have done, given your original concerns that you might catch a form of herpes through regular workplace contact.
1. Ask the girlfriend to refrain from using the spaces until you can do some research. However, you can only make this request since she isn't supposed to be there anyway. You can't ask the boyfriend to stop working there.
Discuss the situation with them, calmly and reasonably responding to their explanations and statements.
2. Research herpes in depth, and find out what type the two of them do or might have, and under what circumstances either of them might transmit it.
3. Tell them about what you've learned, and ask them to take possible steps (making sure they don't have any cuts on their fingers, sneeze into a hanky, etc.) to avoid even remotely possible transmission.
4. Continue working happily, and permit the girlfriend to continue using the space unless there is some other reason than the illness to suggest barring her from doing so.
-----
If all that they said was, "It's not contagious," then they weren't justified. That is, in fact, a lie-and it's a lie about a communicable disease. One cannot expect to lie to someone about that and have reason to be surprised they're pissed when they learn you lied about it.
They should not have been offended if you said, "I'm going to research this more, because I want to be responsible for my own safety, not put the burden on you." Again, if that's all you said. They should not have been offended if you requested the girl stop working there until you do so-she's there on your own collective goodwill anyway.
However, now that you know that herpes is not communicable except under very-easily avoidable circumstances, you should drop the restrictions on the g/f and stop obsessing over the disease. You aren't going to catch it from either of them, and an STD-type illness will not follow you for the rest of your life. Nor is it reasonable or just to take away someone else's rights because you are uncomfortable with an illness they have, which you cannot get except by acting to do so yourself.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Aside from the fact that it might not be an STD in the same sense as one thinks of say..syphillis. I can understand being offended, honestly.
Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
Just my thoughts. I think you had every right to be concerned. That's great that people who have herpes say it's no big deal, but if you don't have it, why would you want it? I think our health is our own, and I don't know about everyone else, but I don't want a disease, whether it's a big deal or not. That said, I think you've been given some good facts on here that show while it's contagious, you don't have to worry because your contact with these people doesn't fall into that category. Apologize for the misunderstanding, and explain that it wouldn't have been such a big deal had the couple provided info. when you requested instead of blowing you off.
space opera
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Yeah, but people who have it don't like being treated like lepers, either.
Edit: Sorry if I'm being really irritable. Finals week=stress + no sleep.
[ May 11, 2004, 03:11 PM: Message edited by: pH ]
Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
I don't think I implied that we should treat people with herpes like lepers. My sister has it, for goodness sakes! I was just saying that those of us who don't have it usually don't want it, neh?
space opera
Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
Hugs and kisses to pH. Finals suck.
space opera
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Anon- Like Sweet William, I wasn't being sarcastic. Just brutally direct. CT touched on the fact that Herpes resides in the nerve cells. This is why it tends to infect the parts of the body that it does, and hence would tend not to migrate to fingertips, keyboards, etc. (fingertips can have a lot of nerves but are designed to be dry and relatively cool). Unless you encounter a mutant variety that springs up exibiting new behavior and tolerances to dry/cold. If so, I guess we're all screwed anyhow. So why worry?
Posted by HollowEarth (Member # 2586) on :
Herpes completely aside, if thats your space, and you've asked her not to use it. She shouldn't. End of discussion. Talk to who ever is supervising the class now about or drop it.
Oh and if you do talk to them, make sure you meantion the herpes or you'll have issues.
This sort of thing is a real pet peeve of mine. And it seems to be especially bad with signifcant others. Any relationship you have with someone doesn't give them the right to everything you have. I don't care if your married or just dating.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
Being freaked out by something unexpected or unusual is a pretty human response. That in itself doesn't make one any more or less of a person. I'm starting to find, though, that when I get that immediate "squick" response about something, it's usually very helpful to get some good, accurate information.
A lot of the time the "squick" can be a red flag for a topic about which one has a lot to learn before a good decision can be made.
Again, though, just having the response doesn't make you a horrid person. Rather, you experience the world in context -- welcome to the club.
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
![[Dont Know]](graemlins/dontknow.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Kiss]](graemlins/kiss.gif)