Question for Mr. National Traffic Safety guy (formerly known as Bob_S)..
About airbags. This truck I now own is the first vehicle I've owned that came with airbags. Now, I'm all for safety, I wear my seat belt religiously, etc., but the idea of that airbag going off just scares the bejeebees out of me!
I was driving home last night when this cute little pricy sports car pulled out in front of me, right into my path. Missed them only by inches and the grace of God. But the whole time that I was thinking I might hit them, all I could think about was keeping that stupid air bag from going off in my face!
Several years ago (different vehicle) I hit a deer on the way home. At 70 mph. Totalled the car. But I had high praise from all the drivers the witnessed it because after the deer slammed into me, I was able to hold the car in position in the lane, and then pull it off to the side out of the way before it lost momentum. Would I have been able to do that if I had some airbag blowing up in my face when the deer hit?
Since airbags are a mechanical device, what do national statistics say about how many malfunction each year -- how many go off without warning when there IS no impact? I'm sure there must be some. Maybe we don't know -- maybe the airbag suddenly goes off and that causes the driver to lose control and he weaves into the path of a semi and is killed -- and we just assume the airbag went off on impact. (okay, that's a bit extremist, I agree).
It is weird that I freak about this -- as a volunteer ambulance worker (EMT) I have seen many times that airbags have saved lives. I know they are for our safety. I just don't want MINE going off in my face, which will take control of the vehicle away from me.
Farmgirl
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Plus the burns are a pain in the rump, too. I had one go off when I was rearended three years ago, and it sucked....but it probably saved my life. They do deflate pretty quick, too..
Kwea
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
Now see? WHY did it go off when you were rear-ended? I thought they were set to only go off for front-end collisions....
Farmgirl
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Plus the burns are a pain in the rump, too
Hmmm...I don't think you're sitting in the seat properly.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
*I'm trying to refrain from a physics lecture on momentum here Farmgirl.
When you are rear ended which way is the energy going to be pushing you? Yes you snap back the other direction which is what causes whiplash but in a front impact you will first be pushed back into your seat and on a rear impact you will first be pushed forward into your seatbelt, before snapping back the other direction.
AJ
Posted by Tristan (Member # 1670) on :
I don't get it, Banna. When your car is hit from behind it ought to accelerate, thereby first pushing you back into your seat; and conversely when your car hit something in the front it slows down relative to the loose objects inside, thereby initially pushing your body into the seatbelt.
You seem to say it's the other way around. What am I missing?
[ April 13, 2004, 11:16 AM: Message edited by: Tristan ]
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
How do you figure, AJ?
quote: in a front impact you will first be pushed back into your seat and on a rear impact you will first be pushed forward into your seatbelt
I mean -- I worked a lot of front-end collisions, and those people definately went THROUGH the front windshield(forward) not back into their seats. Because they had forward momentum and their car stopped moving forward. You are saying that is the snapback???
Farmgirl
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Farmgirl, they make me nervous too. I had one go off in a very minor collision, and the damage from the airbag was worse than what would have happened without it. The airbag caused burns and a broken arm for one of the passengers.
They should only deploy on serious collisions, but they will go off with the slightest bump, it seems.
I'm not denying they save lives, but I think sometimes they do more harm than good.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
*bumping since Bob is away from PC until this evening*
I've been googling up information on spontaneous airbag deployment (or premature airbag deployment) and I don't like what I see at ALL! Except that it seems to be a problem on car models other than what I own...
I really hope there are some national statistics, because percentages will put my mind more at ease... And I figure if anyone knows what those statistics are, it will be Bob.
Farmgirl
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Ok maybe the snapback is the otherway around. Also I was using global co-ordinates rather than local and that makes a difference too. Your position relative to the ground will be farther forward after the impact because the car is pushing you forward even if you are pushing back against the car.
I need to draw the force diagrams. <grin> But I have been a passenger in a car that was rearended and I know that in the backseat only having a lapbelt at some point in the impact my head went forward far enough to basically be thrown forward and down against my knees.
AJ
[ April 13, 2004, 03:08 PM: Message edited by: BannaOj ]
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
I've been in a car that hit a car that was running a red light. We ran into them, but my earrings landed in the hair of the girl sitting in front of me.
I'm just sayin'.
Posted by ludosti (Member # 1772) on :
The company I work for does environmental testing on many items, some of which are initators/inflators used in airbags. Some of the things that we do are apply various currents to them, vibrate them, expose them to a controlled shock, etc. to make sure they don't detonate when they aren't supposed to detonate. They don't go off at the slightest little thing.
[Edit to add that vibrations/shocks in and of themselves are not what detonate initiators/inflators, but rather electrical current]
[ April 13, 2004, 03:23 PM: Message edited by: ludosti ]
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
*bump*
*to keep it from falling off the first page before Bob sees it*
Farmgirl
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
Sorry I didn't see this sooner.
Okay, airbags save lives when used properly.
#1, you MUST wear a seatbelt.
#2, if you are small stature, it can be dangerous if not fatal because shorter people tend to sit closer to the thing.
#3, the newer generation of airbag has a gentler expansion rate -- still fast enough, but not as explosive as the originals.
#4, car vs deer collisions are well known for NOT having the airbag deploy. Depends on the vehicle and where the sensors are located, but basically you've got a big deer with spindly legs that are cut out from under it. Or it leaps as your car approaches. Consequently, it comes through the windshield (typically) and kills you. By the way, never approach a "dead" deer you've hit on the highway. Several drivers have been kicked by a deer that suddenly recovered and loped off after bashing in their skulls with a hoof.
#5, a rear-end collision is not supposed to set off the airbag. That it did means that the sensor in the front bumper experienced deflection. Maybe the car hit something or maybe the shockwave propagated through the frame of the car with sufficient force to set the thing off. But it's not supposed to do that.
#6, don't hit a tree or a pole and expect the airbag to deploy. Same thing as with the deer. Depending on where the sensor is and how much energy there is in the collision, you may actually wrap the car around the pole and not get the air bag to deploy. Sort of rare, but it has happened.
#7, The burns and other bag-associated minor injuries (broken thumbs -- think about it...look how you hold the steering wheel next time you're driving) are better than hitting the steering wheel with your face. It requires a lot less medical treatment to deal with powder burns and chafing from the fine metal mesh of the airbag, than it does to treat broken facial bones, neck injuries and facial lacerations.
All in all, air bags have saved far more lives than they have lost.
Having said that, there's still a perception that the industry was forced into adding air bags to vehicles before there was "enough" known about them (when they are good, when they are harmful).
If I were short or liked to sit really close to the steering wheel, I'd opt for an older car without air bags. Likewise, I would not buy a two-seater car where I couldn't disable the passenger side airbag if there is one. It's really dangerous for short people and children.
Seatbelts are still the most important safety invention of the past 100 years.
If you aren't using your seatbelt when in a moving vehicle (you know who you are), I think you're making a big mistake. Even relatively low-speed crashes turn deadly when people aren't belted.
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
That was the thing I thought the very coolest about Shan's new truck (I love driving that truck!) was the fact that she could turn the passenger side airbag off for Nathan. That is the best idea ever!!
Posted by Da_Goat (Member # 5529) on :
quote:Airbags.......Bob_S?
I don't understand. Are you asking if Bob_S is an airbag, or are you asking us airbags about Bob_S?
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
How short is short for an airbag to be dangerous?
I'm 5' 4" and sit kinda close to the wheel (little legs) - would I be in danger, or am I just being paranoid?
Posted by slacker (Member # 2559) on :
Personally, I'd rather not have airbags in my Honda. Either that, or else I'd like the ability to turn them off for either the passenger/driver.
I drive a stick shift, so my hands are rarely in the "optimal position" while driving through traffic (which experts seem to change every few years), and I'd prefer to not have a broken arm because my airbags deployed (or to have my eyes hurt by flying glass from my sunglasses).
This doesn't take into account the injuries to firefighters, policemen, etc when an airbag unexpectedly goes off after a collision. I've read articles where firemen have been knocked out by the side/top airbags.
Also, the airbags are very expensive (generally around 2k I think), so this means that if your airbags deploy, tack on some extra $$ to getting it repaired (the cost of airbags is what led USAA to total my mom's VW Cabrio after she had her accident). I've even heard of people getting their cars broken into to steal their airbags, though I'd imagine that it's very rare.
Finally, I think that airbags probably play a minor role in the driving habits of people. Since people know that they're more likely to just walk away from a crash, they might not be as careful as before (but that's just my opinion).
Posted by Richard Berg (Member # 133) on :
quote:I've even heard of people getting their cars broken into to steal their airbags, though I'd imagine that it's very rare.
Nope. More common than stereos, among theives who know what they're doing.
Posted by BookWyrm (Member # 2192) on :
Typical Airbag replacement for deployed airbags is around 2k Makes fro a pretty lucrative black market.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Where did you get the 2K number? Ours were about $300 apiece.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
Bob -- you don't have an stats on premature airbag deployment (or malfunctioning airbags -- going off when no collision has occurred?) Any idea how often this happens?
Can dealers turn off airbags if you ask them to?
(don't worry -- I ALWAYS wear my seat belt. I've worked enough accidents as an EMT to see up close and personal what happens to those who chose to not wear seat belts)
Farmgirl
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
I'm not disputing that a broken arm isn't better than a bashed in face, but in this crash the damage to the cars was minimal, there was no chance of anyone going through a window (yes, we had seatbelts on) and the force of the crash wasn't that severe. I've been in worse, much worse without airbags and not been injured.
NO, I'm not some crazy driver, I just have this weird thing about being a passenger in crashes. I've been in over 10, and was only driving in two (and at fault in only one, the one I'm describing here.) I'm a magnet for crashes.
Anyway, this airbag I don't thing should have gone off. It was the cause of the injuries, and I don't think it prevented any.
In case you're wondering, yes we investigated suing, and then decided it wouldn't really be worth our time to pursue it, since we weren't really out of pocket that much money. Good insurance pays.
And I'm short, though I woulnd't call myself small in any other way .
I will say airbags are one reason I insist my children ride in the back. Then again, my vehicle has side air bags, so I don't know if the back is even all that safe for kids. Scary.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Nope. More common than stereos, among theives who know what they're doing.
There was a really amusing story floating around about a guy trying to steal an airbag getting injured when it deployed on him. Can't find it on snopes, no idea if it was real, but it creates a very comic-book image in my mind.
"Hey, Sal! I got the ai-ooooooomph!"
Dagonee
Posted by sndrake (Member # 4941) on :
Bob, the traffic safety guy, said:
quote: #2, if you are small stature, it can be dangerous if not fatal because shorter people tend to sit closer to the thing.
Am I the only one really ticked off that it took the industry years to warn short people about this?
It gave a whole new personal meaning to "statistically insignificant" - which is what I assume they thought about those of us who are short.
It's a design flaw or limitation - we sit close up because we HAVE to - the fault, Horatio, is in the design, not in ourselves. Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
sndrake...the industry didn't know. They ASKED for and were denied more time to study airbags.
And, if you recall, it suddenly became impossible to sell a car without airbags because of the perception of "safety" that it gave. Then they became mandatory.
Dumb.
Short stature is, I think around 5 feet or less, but I'd have to verify. It matters, though, where you sit in relation to the steering wheel, so even if you are above that magic number, if you sit too close to the wheel (18 inches, I believe) you may need to readjust in order to be safer.
Side airbags in the backseat are less likely to pose a danger to someone sitting there. I think...
Belle, there's supposed to be a speed-dependent cutoff that will stop the airbag from deploying if the energy of the crash is below a predetermined value. They do go off needlessly, though, and the problem is that the sensors' efficiency decays over time. Sometimes the thing gets less sensitive than it should be. Sometimes more sensitive.
And after a crash, they are probably more likely to be a problem because it comes down to an electromechanic system that's been compromised by all the jostling and the power surges that are involved in the event.
As for data on premature deployment, I think you could probably find something at: www.nhtsa.gov or www.iihs.org
It is illegal for a garage/manufacturer to disable an airbag in most states. You might check the laws in your state to find out whether you can have this done and under what circumstances. If I were short stature, I'd first try pedal extensions because even without an airbag, the problems associated with sitting too close to the steering wheel make it a dangerous position to be in.
And the advantage of having the airbag are there if you can sit far enough back from it.
Oh well, it's a problem, I agree, and there aren't any easy solutions. I suspect the cost of those systems is going to keep rising as we add more and more sensors that are capable of detecting the size of people in each seat and the true dynamics of the crash event as it unfolds.
And still it won't be foolproof.
But the incidence of death due to airbags is VERY LOW.
The injuries ARE relatively minor.
And so they are probably here to stay.
Posted by sndrake (Member # 4941) on :
quote:sndrake...the industry didn't know. They ASKED for and were denied more time to study airbags.
And, if you recall, it suddenly became impossible to sell a car without airbags because of the perception of "safety" that it gave. Then they became mandatory.
Dumb.
Short stature is, I think around 5 feet or less, but I'd have to verify. It matters, though, where you sit in relation to the steering wheel, so even if you are above that magic number, if you sit too close to the wheel (18 inches, I believe) you may need to readjust in order to be safer.
Bob, I'm 5' 1" and long waisted, meaning my legs are on the short side, proportionately. I followed this when the news broke and I seem to recall claims about a definite lag in getting the word out to people who were identifiably at risk. Fortunately, I've mostly driven older cars without air bags but I worry when I drive a rental.
Car designers have historically been bad when it comes to people on the short end of the scale. It took them what seems like forever to make shoulder straps adjustable. Like many short people, I've driven many cars, with the shoulder harness tucked behind me, since I didn't like the feel of it cutting across my neck (and it didn't seem like it would be all that helpful in that position in a collision.).
It's also a pet peeve when things are framed in a way that frames the "problem" as being situated in me. I agree that the design problems in trying to cover all drivers in all situations might be insurmountable. My peeve is in the way the industry describes the situation - like it's a quirk of short people to sit close to the wheel. It's not a quirk - it's a necessity if we want to have our feet on the pedals.
Anyway, please don't take this as a rant at you. If you read any of my other posts from yesterday, I've already said this is a really grumpy week for me. And my resentment of car makers as a short person is one of long duration.
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