This is one (I just emailed my independent study prof):
Just a thought I had reading through some emotion stuff.
The book talked about the role of tryptophan vs. phenylalanine in serotonin production. That they compete for the same receptors and phenylalanine can bump out the tryptophan, leading to lower serotonin levels. It also states that nutrasweet is half phenylalanine. Now, there's the un diagnosable abdominal pain that is more commonly found in women, often successfully treated now with serotonin receptor agonists (a few are reactive with 5-HT3/5-HT4 and dopamine D2 receptrors, another just with 5-HT3 receptors), some of the pain is associated with IBS, some not.
Anyway. The question here is, if this condition was not present, then suddenly presented itself, is there a relation between consumption of aspartame with onset of abdominal pain later?
I ask this because in the summer of '02, I found out that I have hypoglycemia and stopped drinking sugared sodas and switched to diet. In december of '02, I was beset by mild to severe abdominal pain with no known cause (after extensive testing) which was successfully treated with a low-dose SSRI (affecting the 5-HT receptors).
Hmmm. I found one study so far, but it focused on several somatoform symptoms and generalized neurotransmitter synthesis. However, the theoretical correlations of relating serotonin and pain regulation are there.
What do you think?
[ April 12, 2004, 08:20 PM: Message edited by: mackillian ]
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
mack, I should have responded to your email sooner. My apologies -- I've been bouncing about quite a bit lately, and email was getting shafted.
This sounds fascinating. What level were you looking to do this at? PhD thesis would justify controlled clinical trial, but a lit review and analysis might be enough for a paper.
Awesome.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Not sure, any level. I just came UP with it, not to mention the previous idea.
Did you want to see that proposal?
Aaaaah. Need input from you and bob for these ideas! O_o
Posted by sarahdipity (Member # 3254) on :
*whispers to mack* grad school
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Grad school is for those people that aren't smart enough to leave when they graduate the first time. Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
mph:
Sure, mack! Send me a proposal or post it here. I can't wait to see what Bob thinks.
(Mack the Strong and Healthy, Mack the Magnificent Way to turn your own experience into something powerful for others.)
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
What's the actual bioavailability of the phenylalanine? I was under the impression that it gets degraded down to fumarate and acetoacetate pretty quickly. Wouldn't most of it get removed in the first pass? Mind you, I haven't a clue as to what concentration you're taking in.
I know you meant the other Bob, I'm just musing Posted by Theca (Member # 1629) on :
*snicker* Check out the ad for colon cleansing at the bottom of this page.
Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
I'm not entirely certain how to translate this thread, but I have a sneaking suspicion it could be further evidence for my theory that Diet Coke is evil.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Please tell me I'm not the only person reading this thread that feels very intellectually inferior.
Posted by sarahdipity (Member # 3254) on :
Yeah, my first reaction was hmm more evidence that mack is much smarter than I. I think it's also evidence that a college level bio class wouldn't have hurt me at all. Oh well, too late for that.
Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
I think it's evidence that a college bio class WOULD have hurt you. After all, you might have come out talking in terms like "phenylalanine"! Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Sent. And knock off the smart stuff. You're all full of poo.
Posted by T_Smith (Member # 3734) on :
Full of poo?
::wipes a tear::
That was below the belt, Jamie, BELOW THE BELT!
Oh, and, YOU ARE SMART.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
Let's get Scott R going on bees, or Anne Kate on engineering, or Paul Goldner on baseball.
No shortage of specialized knowledge 'round here.
That being said, I agree that mackillian has a tip-top mind, and I can't wait to see what she does with it, wherever her travels lead her.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
It just ran out of my brain, gave me the finger and slithered off. o_O
GET BACK HERE!
*chases*
Hey, CT, any knowledge of finding research positions for the next year?
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Unfortunately there aren't any things I can start a topic on to feel smart and intelligent.
Well, maybe on Poo. I'm pretty much an expert on baby poo.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Mac is brilliant and aspartame is horrid. I am firmly convinced that a properly controlled clinical trial will confirm both of those hypotheses.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
Belle, I've got pee-in-the-eye covered. Ain't no way anyone here has been peed-in-the-eye as much as me.
(((Adrian))) *whispers ... You know, some of us are so wise we don't have to do anything special to prove it. Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
I know. This project is more immediately do-able than my other one. *runs in circles* I can't wait to see what the profs I've shot this out to have to say on it.
And Belle...have you ever noticed how interested in poo doctors are?! o_O
BtL: good question on the breakdown on phenylalanine. I'll have to go investigate.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
It's probably too late for Fall 2004, but that's just a guess. Sometimes things come up. Are you thinking of Summer or Fall 2005?
Any restricting on where you will or will not go? (areas of the country, etc?)
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Well, I'd like to just get a research position in a lab somewhere if I can. I'm also TRYING to figure out how to attend school full-time for the next year so I can concentrate on all this stuff and preparing for the phd--and getting the application process done. I'm aiming for fall 2005 for PhD, but want to see what I can do for the next year.
Posted by T_Smith (Member # 3734) on :
Ok, Jamie, just because I'd like to understand a little more of what you are talking about:
Phenylalanine causes lower serotonin levels. There is a lot of it in nutrasweet. There are undiagnosable abdominal cramps that are treated by increasing serotonin levels (I'm confused if thats right or not).
Is it the diet soda's that have aspartame or is it the regular soda's?
So you're wondering if the diet soda are messing with serotonin levels which in turn, effect the abdominal pains?
Please correct me, because if I'm wrong, I need to learn.
Posted by Jeni (Member # 1454) on :
Personally, I think Mack should stop worrying about silly things like tryptophan and phenylalanine and write more books for me to read. Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
The simple explanation:
Aspartame doesn't directly lower serotonin levels. Aspartame is about half phenylalanine. Your body needs tryptophan to create serotonin. Phenylalanine gets into the places that tryptophan needs to get to, so it blocks it out. Because of that, there's less serotonin made. Make more sense?
And aspartame is in diet sodas, not regular. If you look on the ingredients, it'll tell you in red letters at the bottom of the list if it contains phenylalanine.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
There are a lot of seratonin receptors in the gut.
I just found out the other day the interaction between female sex hormones and seratonin. I knew there had to be one. I just can't believe it's taken me so long to find it in lay literature.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Which interaction?
Posted by jexx (Member # 3450) on :
I feel very smart because I am following this train of conversation fairly well.
*pats self on back*
Of course, my mom suffers from IBS (irritable bowel syndrome), so it's probably just my absorbed knowledge of what she is going through.
*still pats self on back for paying half attention*
Of course, I don't know nearly as much about baby poo as Belle and CT. I never did babysit when I was a kid. Caused me No End of trouble when my own kid was born. Thank God for my kidsmart hubby!
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
In The Schwarzbein Principle II Dr. Schwarzbein says overproduction of estradiols lowers seratonin. I'm not sure why this is, yet, I'm still reading. But it would certainly go along with PMS and the higher ratio of depression (it seems) in women.
Also, DDT and PCBs in the environment can mimic estrogen (which is a type of estradiol). I don't know if that would also lead to reduced seratonin. It's hard to say, I felt better when I was taking soy (which has estrogen like compounds in it).
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
Mack,
quote: I ask this because in the summer of '02, I found out that I have hypoglycemia and stopped drinking sugared sodas and switched to diet. In december of '02, I was beset by mild to severe abdominal pain with no known cause (after extensive testing) which was successfully treated with a low-dose SSRI (affecting the 5-HT receptors).
Didn't you have abdominal pains again, more than once, SINCE 2002? Does the treatment using SSRI only treat the "symptom" of pain without identifying the cause of the pain?
Farmgirl
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Pooka:
just before menstruation, estradiol and progesterone levels decrease and cortisol increases. Current research is focusing on the metabolization of progesterone into allopregnanolone which modifies the GABA synapse (which controls the anxiety and stress response). Added to that, cortisol also is responsible for the anxiety and stress response.
Farmgirl:
The cause of the pain is hypothesized to be low serotonin levels. Treating the symptom of pain would be use of painkillers. And yes, since 2002 I've had another bout of pain...this time just after starting medication that increases the amount of GABA and inhibits production of serotonin.
Effectively lowering levels again, while I wasn't on an SSRI (the medications before it did push up serotonin levels).
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
It's always hard to know what is causing what, but I think cortisol is a progesterone agonist, which is why women go into labor in the middle of the night or on Yom Kippur (if they are close to being due otherwise.) The reduction of the progesterone allows oxytocin to be produced.
I've always been less depressed during nursing (which is a high oxytocin/low progesterone state) except this time. I've been depressed, probably mainly due to lifestyle stress, and now my period is coming back and I'm going nuts!
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
(((pooka))) Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
That just sucks.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
The funny thing about nutrient intake and brain chemistry is that we supposedly digest proteins in the stomach and intestines. That should result in them no longer having the same structure that they did when we chewed them up at input side of things.
I mean, stomach acid is pretty strong stuff, as are the digestive enzymes in the rest of the gut.
But, those precursor molecules still have value above and beyond their constituent amino acids. And it's pretty well known that things like tryptophan can have effects when ingested as part of a meal, no?
So, I think mack is onto something here. I'm thinking that dietary changes often have associated mood changes and that ultimately would be mediated by a balance of neurotransmitters...not just the aching emptiness in your stomach.
As for phenylalanine, would it surprise anyone to learn that another artificial sweetener has unintented consequences?
Mack, the Nutrasweet people are coming to get you. If I were you, I'd hide.
I think this is a great hypothesis.
And, I think you should consider a graduate school where there are people in the Psych department who worry about nutrition and brain chemistry. I think Columbia University would be a possibility, especially if you can get in with the researchers up in the Med School (Columbia College of Physicians and Surgeons). But I'm betting there are even better programs with respect to this kind of thing. There just HAVE to be people out there studying nutrition and brain chemistry from a psychobiological perspective.
You might check University of Southern California.
I can't think of any others off hand, but I could ask around if you want me to.
Or, just find out who's doing interesting research and apply at the school where they are tenured.
NOTE: Always make sure you like at least one tenured prof, in case you need someone who isn't going away 1/2-way through your grad school career.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
quote: And it's pretty well known that things like tryptophan can have effects when ingested as part of a meal, no?
I dunno, is it the Turkey, or the pumpkin pie, or just the sheer quantity of everything? I know I get sleepy.
Posted by Dead_Horse (Member # 3027) on :
Good, Mack. Having depression and IBS myself (among other things), I will be more careful not to use aspartame than I have been. I had some crystal light a couple of weeks ago, but otherwise nothing different than usual. I've also had a lovely week or so of IBS after almost a year with minimal pain. I wondered what could have caused it. I'll bet you're right on. Rain
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Dead Horse, if it's just been this past week I'd look at the daylight savings shift. Sleep deprivation has been demonstrated to contribute to insulin resistance, and insulin is necessary for tryptophan to seratonin conversion. Heh. It's probably been part of my recent scene as well.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I was a psych major way back when....
no punchline this time......really
I decided to leave school because while I loved psychology, I hated my school. Also because so much schooling is necessary to actually get a job in the field that I felt it wasn't for me.
So now here I am, selling suits (of all things) for a living, and along comes this thread, showing me what I might have done if I hadn't quit.
This sounds like a really interesting study, and while I am no expert (by any strech of the word) I can still follow most of this. I was a medic in the service, and worked at USAMRIID, the U.S. Army's answer to the CDC, so I can follow the medical side fairly well too.
I would be interested in hearing more about this, if you don't mind. Just keep us up to date, and let us know if something comes of it, OK?
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Way to turn your own experience into something powerful for others.)
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I knew there had to be one. I just can't believe it's taken me so long to find it in lay literature.
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