So, I tend to say things in a very common way and not the way they are 'officially' supposed to be pronounced according to Mr. Webster. As Dog noted in another thread, this includes pronouncing 'crepes' so it rhymes with 'capes'.
Let's hypothetically say that the vast majority of people in America pronounce it the way I do. The next time Webster's is being edited, should the pronunciation of the word be changed to my way, or should it remain the same? Let's carry it even further and say a full 100% of English speakers pronounce it the wrong way. Should it be changed then?
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
I pronounce it that way. But then I pronounce "warm" to rhyme with "farm" rather than "form". Porter thinks this is hilarious.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
My mom pronounces 'wash' 'warsh'. There are all kinds of funky regional differences in pronunciation athat I find fascinating. Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Dictionaries are fun things.
The way they determine how a word is pronounced, or what it means, or what is a word and what isn't, is by polling people and the media.
In that case, when the majority of people pronounce Ask as Ax, that is how the dictionaries will list it.
However, words are a very important peice of the social order and of personal experience. The better defined a word is, the more people can agree on it. This is even important in how we recognize words.
If you know what a Crepe' is, but some one is talking about a "Crape" you may not know what they are refering too.
A more blatant example, when Joe says "I don't know the answer. I will ask Tom." I applaude Joe. When Joe says, "I don't know the answer, I will Ax Tom." I go warn Tom.
The problem isn't does the majority say the word the same way. The problems occur when a group who thinks they are a majority insists we should all automatcally understand what they are saying.
Posted by Dobbie (Member # 3881) on :
What do you think of a president who misspronounces the word "nuclear"? I am of course referring to Jimmy Carter, who did graduate work in nuclear physics and was senior officer on a nuclear submarine.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Note the accepted variant. Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Thank you, Rivka. Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Dobbie, I have to confess that, while I can't remember how Carter pronounced it, I derive great satisfaction from hearing Bush pronounce 'nuclear'. Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
I'm sure that's only accepted because of Americas need to mock anything and everything french Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
Language already is democratic, for the most part. "Nu-kyu-lar" is an accepted pronunciation in Merriam-Webster, though it's marked as being nonstandard. Dictionaries are mostly descriptive tools, not prescriptive tools.
Interestingly, the Old English for for "ask" was "acs," which was then supplanted by the northern form "ask" in the fifteenth century.
So how do you pronounce "crapes," Storm?
Actually, rivka, the accepted variant there is a spelling variant, not a pronunciation variant. In other words, you can use a circumflex if you want.
[ March 26, 2004, 03:44 PM: Message edited by: Jon Boy ]
Posted by Pod (Member # 941) on :
another thing that dictionary writers will always warn against, are folk etymologies. heh.
but yes, language use is already democratic.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
JB, I thought I already mentioned in my initial post that I pronounce the word to rhyme with 'capes'.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Um, but it has a second little pronunciation icon -- and it says it differently than the first.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
I'm confused, Pod. Are you calling the "ask/acs" thing a folk etymology? 'Cause it's definitely not.
Storm: So what needs to be changed, then? The dictionary already has it rhyming with "capes." Your way is the standard way.
Rivka, maybe I just have problems, but they sound absolutely identical to me.
[ March 26, 2004, 03:54 PM: Message edited by: Jon Boy ]
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Well, I wrote this without checking the dictionary. I assumed Dog was saying that pronouncing it to rhyme with 'capes' was wrong. I guess I just assumed Dog to be right. Rivka shows the word to have two pronunciations, so I guess the non-capes way is the official French pronunciation that Dog follows or something.
Let me also add that this thread is not in any way a jab at Dog or anything.edit: It's actually something that I've brought up on another forum in my distant past.
[ March 26, 2004, 03:53 PM: Message edited by: Storm Saxon ]
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
So how does Geoff say it, then? If rivka's hearing a different pronunciation, then why isn't it actually listed? All it lists is "/'krAp/," which does indeed rhyme with "cape." I'm so confused right now.
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
Every time I've ever heard it it's been crepe rhymes with wreck. Which is the French way and, I'm assuming, what people were citing as the proper way. These people also happen to be correct. The rest of you, that site, and your dictionaries are all wrong.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
O_O
Jon, what did you do?! Now they both sound the same to me, too!
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
So Canadians pronounce "crepe" as "creck"?
They were already the same, rivka! I didn't do anything. You're obviously hearing things.
[ March 26, 2004, 04:07 PM: Message edited by: Jon Boy ]
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
No, just the vowel sound is the same. It'd rhyme in a country song if not a poem.
Edit: The final "e" is silent.
[ March 26, 2004, 04:16 PM: Message edited by: Bob the Lawyer ]
Posted by skrika03 (Member # 5930) on :
I don't think the french say it with the short english e like in bet. There is a difference between an /e/ (phonetically, like a long a)and /ey/. You maybe can hear the difference in weight between the a's in "rapier" and "rape". I thought one of the virtues of french is that their vowels are "pure" or some pot of horsemeat like that.
Posted by Dobbie (Member # 3881) on :
quote:I'm sure that's only accepted because of Americas need to mock anything and everything french
When it comes to language, the French should be mocked. If you don't believe me note that the "masculinité", the French word for "masculinity", is feminine.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
I remember reading rivka say that "nauseous" didn't mean what people thought it did. So I looked it up and sure enough, nauseous refers to an object making people queezy, not being queezy. When you are sick, you are "nauseated".
I have never heard it used that way! In twenty two years, everyone from friends, to family, to nurses, to doctors, have always said "I feel nauseous" or "Does it make you nauseous?". And NEVER have I heard it used to describe anything which makes someone nauseated. If thats the case you say it "makes me nauseous" or it is "nauseating".
I figure I don't care what the "correct" usage was even though I know it now. I have been sick for almost two weeks, and over this time I have referred to myself as nauseous about two dozen times.
I think that whoever cares about this word should realize that 99% of Americans use it wrong, so hey, that makes it right!
....
Except for the pseudo-word "irregardless". I don't care how many of the population uses it, its not a word! Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
Bob, I know what you meant. I was just giving you a bad time because you're a Frenchie-loving Canuck.
quote:I don't think the french say it with the short english e like in bet. There is a difference between an /e/ (phonetically, like a long a)and /ey/. You maybe can hear the difference in weight between the a's in "rapier" and "rape". I thought one of the virtues of french is that their vowels are "pure" or some pot of horsemeat like that.
In French, it's pronounced with the sound in "bet" (an open-mid front vowel, according to this chart). The difference between "rapier" and "rape" is a non-phonemic difference of length, whereas the difference between the French and American pronuncations of "crepe" is a difference in vowel height and purity. The French is /crεp/, while the American is /creip/. And yes, most French vowels are monophthongs, not diphthongs.
[ March 26, 2004, 04:41 PM: Message edited by: Jon Boy ]
Posted by Valentine014 (Member # 5981) on :
I'm surprised this one hasn't been mentioned yet:
"To err is human, to forgive..."
How many times have I heard that word mispronounced?
verbal slouchery.....
Posted by skrika03 (Member # 5930) on :
Does it make a difference if there is one crepe or multiple crepes? How does Pat pronounce it when he's exchanging recipes?
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
You know the song, "You say potato and I say potato (pronounced differently)"? Porter tells a story of a girl singing for a high school audition who did this little number. Apparently she wasn't familiar with the concept behind the song, for she pronounced the words the same every time!
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
There are all kinds of funky regional differences in pronunciation athat I find fascinating. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Grumble]](graemlins/grumble.gif)
verbal slouchery.....