Someone asked in another thread if Smegol had killed his cousin Deagol for the ring back before he became Gollum. I know he killed Demgol but I can't remember where it was said they were cousins.
I believe it is in the appendix of LOTR; I also believe Gandalf talks about it in The Fellowship of the Ring, but I'll have to check.
I'll also check my copy of The Silmarillion.... Does anyone else remember anything?
Kwea
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
In FOTR, on page 62, Gandalf says that they were friends, not cousins.
However, I seem to remember reading some of Tolkin's own essays, perhaps when I tried to read some of the lost tales that Chris Tolkien put out after his dads death, and I remember them being second or third cousins as well. I'll look into it at B&N....as much as I love Tolkien, I won't be buying those books.....
It could be that they were related in previous drafts, but it got changed in the final draft; or we could all be wrong.....it certainly wouldn't be a first for me....lol.
Kwea
Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
For a while I'd convinced myself that they were brothers.
Posted by aka (Member # 139) on :
Several of us are sure we remember reading that they were cousins, although not necessarily first cousins, in something which we can't put our finger on again now. I think it has to be in the original five books (Hobbit, LotR, and Silmarillion) because that's all I had read until the movies came out, but I can't find any exact textual reference that backs me up. I almost wonder if there has been some change in the later editions or something. Tom D also remembered this, and some others who had read it many times starting long ago.
This is driving me nuts. I would love to know the truth about this, and where it came from.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
I seem to remember reading recently that Tolkien never said they were cousins and that the claim that they were cousins came from one of the role-playing games.
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
We had a thread that discussed all this, with numerous historical references, a few months ago.
He wouldn't quit having the operations....
Posted by Anthro (Member # 6087) on :
Oh, that's unkind.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I'm going to B&N tommorrow, for a several hours just to research this, as I remember them being second or third cousins. However, I seem to remember Gandalf saying it to Frodo in Rivendell, but when I looked up the conversation all it said was that Smeagol had a friend named Deagol who wasn't as quick or as strong as he was.
I think I might have just mixed up their relationship because Gandalf say that the race they belonged to was close kin to hobbitts, and they lived in a society controled by Smeagols grandma. I'll look further into this, even unto the depths of the horrid Lost Tales if I have to.....
Kwea
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Ok, I spent an hour at B&N, and I came up whth the following:
We are all idiots. Smeagol and Deagol were friends, and nowhere in any of the texts is there any reference to them being related to each other, not even in the Lost Tales. I think the confusion is due to the fact that when discribing them Gandalf said that Smeagol and Deagol were river folk, which were hobbit-kin (B), meaning that the race they belonged to were possibly related to the river faring Tooks (back in their far past). Also, cousins and close kin run throughout not just LOTR but through The Hobbit as well. The Sacksville-Baggins are merely one example, with Frodo being another (closely related to Bilbo and all, and being adopted by him) example.
The good news is that we are not alone. Even The Complete Guide to Middle-Earth lists Deagol as Smeagols cousin!
I even delved into th Lost tales, as distasteful as I find them, trying to find out if they had been related in an ealier version....and they were, sort of.......Deagol (spelled diagal) was Tolkiens first draft for Gollum/smeagol! They were only split up in the later draft when Tolkien realized he had problems correlating the story from The Hobbit with his larger work.
So they were never cousins, although many others made the same mistake as we did, even to the point of including it in their own published works!
Pretty cool, huh? Although I still feel kind of silly now. I know the names of the swords Gandalf and Thorin found, and the name of most of the Valar (and their dominions), but I didn't know who Deagol was, really.....
Oh well....
Kwea
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
...
Posted by aka (Member # 139) on :
Why were we all so sure they were cousins? I can't understand it. I was positive!
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
Yes, Deagol's life will indeed forever remain a secret.
Ha! Old English puns! I kill me!
Anne Kate: Why is everyone so sure they've heard that alleged movie quote before? I think this must somehow be related.
[ March 10, 2004, 11:31 PM: Message edited by: Jon Boy ]
Posted by vwiggin (Member # 926) on :
I think it is because we all think there's a lot of inbreeding among Hobbits. Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Iknow I probably read it in The Complete Guide to Middle Earth when I was younger, but I'm not positive.
That phrase hobbit-kin is damn misleading....
Kwea Posted by Da_Goat (Member # 5529) on :
I think it was mentioned in the animated movies that they were related somehow, and they are always portrayed as being about the same age. Usually, if that happens, you assume they're cousins.
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