What is the reason behind the rhyme? The book Heavy Words Lightly Thrown, recently written by Chris Roberts makes the claim that nursery rhymes have alterior meanings. Here is the website of The Guardian, the British newspaper, that outlines the thoughts provided by Roberts.
Here is another link that talks about the same thing, on a Scottish news network.
So, what do you all think? Do you think this makes sense, and could be grounded on something reasonable... or is it as ridiculous as claiming that a sponge (Spongebob Squarepants) is gay?
Also, do you think that places around the world might start banning Nursery Rhymes as they have been known to ban other childrens' works in the past?
Posted by Rhaegar The Fool (Member # 5811) on :
Jack and Jill wet up the hill to smoke some marajuana...
You dont want to hear the rest, trust me.
Rhaegar
Posted by Amka (Member # 690) on :
I think it had something to do with some kind of politics in England. And I think when Jack 'broke his crown' he was actually beheaded or something, and Jill after. I don't recall who they parodied, though.
Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
Oh, Good Gravy! Children's rhymes have oodles of disturbing things in them. Yet they are wonderful, all the same. It's like "Finding Nemo" today - there are things mainly for the kids, but there are subtexts for the adults to enjoy. Same with fairy tales.
Also, are you aware that "Jack and Jill" has another verse (if not more?)
Up Jack got, and home did trot As fast as he could caper, He went to bed and soaked his head In vinegar and brown paper.
Posted by Taalcon (Member # 839) on :
Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
I always forget that there's a second verse, though I know I've heard it before.
It's like how Ring Around the Rosie is about the Bubonic Plague
Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
Yes, Jenny, there is a second verse... but did you know that there's also an alternate second verse? This one, I think, describes better what the author of this book is trying to say...
Up Jack got, and home did trot As fast as he could caper, To old Dame Dob, who patched his nob, With vinegar and brown paper.
This one is less appropriate, but more to the point of the articles!
There's even ANOTHER one:
Then up Jack got, And home did trot, As fast as he could caper, Dame Gill did the job, To plaster his nob, With vinegar and brown paper.
Then Jill came in, And she did grin, To see Jack's paper plaster; Her mother whipped her, Across her knee, For laughing at Jack's disaster.
So, you see, yours was the slightly sugar-coated version!
Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
Oh thank you! I knew there was more to it! Isn't it fun?
Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
Hehe, anytime.
It is! I thought it was fascinating!
Posted by Anthro (Member # 6087) on :
Oh. My God. It burns.
Actually, Jack "the enforcer" and Jill "the fist" went up the hill to get water for Jimmy the snitch's concrete overshoes. Jack was shot in the head by a sniper from the Chinese mafia and Jill dropped and rolled to get out of the line of fire.
Posted by A Rat Named Dog (Member # 699) on :
I'm pretty sure that snopes has killed the whole ring-a-round-the-rosie rumor ...
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Yeah, ring around the rosies is with a high degree of certainty unrelated to the black death.
Posted by Richard Berg (Member # 133) on :
quote:Do you think this makes sense, and could be grounded on something reasonable... or is it as ridiculous as claiming that a sponge (Spongebob Squarepants) is gay?
quote:It's like "Finding Nemo" today - there are things mainly for the kids, but there are subtexts for the adults to enjoy.
Neither of these are valid comparisons, really. The class of children's rhymes we're talking about originated as political demagoguery. (Haven't read the link, but this is pretty common knowledge). Ring Around the Rosie is about the Great Plague, Humpty was Richard III, Baa Baa protests the export tax...
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Ring around the Rosie has nothing to do with the black death.
Posted by Slash the Berzerker (Member # 556) on :
Yeah, Richard. You big goober.
Posted by Book (Member # 5500) on :
I recall reading that the original Little Red Riding Hood involved the Big Bad Wolf convincing her to take off her clothes and climb into bed with him, where he killed and ate her.
I guess the moral of the story is either don't trust strangers, or Grandma is Seriously !@##@!#$!ed up.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
*pies Slash*
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
From Snopes:
quote: Ring, a ring o' roses, A pocket full o' posies, Up-stairs and down-stairs, In my lady's chamber -- Husher! Husher! Cuckoo!
Hmmmm. That sounds either more or substantially less sinister, depending.
Posted by lcarus (Member # 4395) on :
um, Spongebob is gay!
-o-
Normally, Snopes is an excellent site, but that is the most unconvincing explanation I have ever read from them. They're pretty convincing that it could not be a six-hundred year old rhyme, but that doesn't preclude this version of the rhyme from having that meaning. Likewise, the existence of other versions and the theory that this began as a "ring game" does not mean that this version is not about the plague. We've been telling stories about the plague for centuries, so the rhyme doesn't need to be six hundred years old to be about that. All they have really established is the rhyme's age. (And yet, they worded their "refutation" awfully strongly . . . I wonder what had their panties in a bunch.)
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
I disagree as to its strength.
They point out that:
1) It arose only well, well after the plague.
2) It lends itself far more to an inccocuous interpretation even in the most "plague-inspired" form.
3) The "plague-inspired" form(s) are the exception rather than the rule among the many variants, which appear to have arisen roughly at the same time, and some of which appear to predate the most "plague-y" parts of the song such as "Ashes, ashes" (which isn't even particularly related to the plague).
4) It is very clearly a circle dancing song.
5) Everything in most of the versions makes perfect sense as a circle dancing song without reading any ulterior motives into the words.
6) The idea that its about the plague didn't arise until a good number of years after the song itself did, as far as we can tell, and comes from a single source of descent.
Is there a tiny, remote possibility it may be about the plague? Yes, in the same way there's a tiny, remote possibility most of Shakespeare's plays weren't authored by him. But its incredibly unlikely.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
I think their vehemence is largely due to the liberty so many feel justified in taking with literary meaning and motivation -- for instance with L. Frank Baum, as they mention.
Literary meaning may be taken from a piece that is unrelated to the author's intent, but it is a fallacy to project that meaning backward as authorial intent. And in this case its more than a bit of a stretch to see the plague meaning in the poem already, much less authorial intent.
Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
The someone should tell my nineth grade world history teacher that.
Posted by jack (Member # 2083) on :
So, Jack and Jill went up the hill either because they were doing the nasty, a Cardinal and a Bishop trying to arrange the marriage of Mary Tudor, or it could have possibly been Jack and Gill who went up the hill and like the Scandinavian myth about Hjuki and Bil who were captured by Mani (a moon god) and can been seen on the moon, carrying a pail, but only when the moon is full. Any others?
Book, here is the original. It doesn't say anything about that. But it is longer than I remember. I don't think I ever read anything after the first wolf. (okay, I'm linking to a site that calls it an "alternate ending" but other websites list it as the entire story.) http://mld.ursinus.edu/Maerchen/grimmred.html
Here are other version of it, too. Apparently, this was a well-told oral tale long before the Grimm brothers got to it.
The one I've always wondered about is "Three Blind Mice":
Three Blind Mice Three Blind Mice See how they run See how they run They all ran after the farmer's wife Who cut off their tails with a carving knife Did you ever see such a sight in your life As three blind mice
I've never heard a good explanation for that one... but the publisher's website says it's about taxation (????)
quote: 1) It arose only well, well after the plague.
Irrelevant.
quote:2) It lends itself far more to an inccocuous interpretation even in the most "plague-inspired" form.
I don't agree. The existence of innoccuous versions does not mean that the version we best remember is not about the plague. And I can't think of a better, innoccuous explanation for that version.
quote:3) The "plague-inspired" form(s) are the exception rather than the rule among the many variants, which appear to have arisen roughly at the same time, and some of which appear to predate the most "plague-y" parts of the song such as "Ashes, ashes" (which isn't even particularly related to the plague).
Irrelevant. And "ashes, ashes" can quite easily be related to the plague.
quote:4) It is very clearly a circle dancing song.
Irrelevant.
quote:5) Everything in most of the versions makes perfect sense as a circle dancing song without reading any ulterior motives into the words.
Irrelevant.
quote:6) The idea that its about the plague didn't arise until a good number of years after the song itself did, as far as we can tell, and comes from a single source of descent.
Irrelevant.
As I said before, they have made a pretty convincing case that this song is not six-hundred years old. And there are other versions, and it's a circle dancing song (Well, duh!). The lines of the version I know fit very well with a plague interpretation (all the way down to "We all fall down"!). Obviously we can never know, because we can't ask the author. But their claim that this is "nonsense" and your claim that it's only "a tiny, remote possibility" and that it's "incredibly unlikely" are very overstated.
[ March 03, 2004, 07:31 PM: Message edited by: lcarus ]
Posted by kidyanna (Member # 6148) on :
i like fairy tales and nursery rhymes... and even more so if there is some dark underlaying truth behind them Posted by Dobbie (Member # 3881) on :
These present some more convincing arguments, I think.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
They are not irrelevant, they are circumstantial, which is very different.
There is not a single bit of direct evidence tying the poem to the plague (or any other concrete meaning). As such, it is necessary to interpret the available circumstantial evidence. The available circumstantial evidence points extremely strongly to it being a silly rhyme for spring/summertime circle dances with no bearing on the plague whatsoever.
To quote the first of Jon Boy's references:
quote:You're welcome to your delusions, but please air them elsewhere. Given the evidence at hand, in order to believe in the plague interpretation you must follow one of two lines of logic: a) Created in 1665 (or, better still, in 1340), the rhyme quickly went underground: for over 100 years (or 450 years) no one would dare mention it in public. Then, suddenly, it wasn't a secret anymore.
b) In the late 18th century a group of Americans thought it would be neat to invent a rhyming game that was filled with references to disgusting aspects of an ancient epidemic in a foreign country.
If you want to travel down one of these roads, be my guest.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
If everyone thinks the song is about the plague, doesn't that mean it is, even if that was not the original intention.
I don't think this can acurately be compared to L. Frank Baum. If I understand clearly they are refering to the debate over the gold standard and Dorthy's silver shoes? In the case of Baum, the issue is clearly political commetary, which is worthless after the fact except in the historical sense. So it would make a difference whether or not Baum intended it to be about the gold standard (introduce historical inaccuracies) while it makes very little difference whether or not Ring around the Rosie was originally meant to refer to the Black death if it does refer to it now.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
The assertion that right now when people sing it they're talking about the plague is somewhat up in the air, however the assertion that it was written to be about the plague is fairly clearly not.
Posted by Richard Berg (Member # 133) on :
The metaversion I heard tagged it for the 1665 plague in London, making it a bit more believable, but given the evidence it's not worth arguing. The original point was, finding subtexts in Mother Goose rhymes is not the same as digging for hidden meaning in SpongeBob, because the innuendo was intended from the beginning.
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