quote:WASHINGTON — Speakers at yesterday’s forum on the Free State Project and its goal to re-locate 20,000 libertarians to the Granite State see challenges and opportunities ahead.
In hopes of spreading its free society message and build support for the project, the American Enterprise Institute for Public Policy Research sponsored yesterday’s debate titled, “The Free State Project: Move and Live Free?” Experts on economics, policy and politics argued the advantages and difficulties ahead for the libertarian movement.
The Free State Project aims to relocate 20,000 libertarians to New Hampshire towns as advocates for limited government and greater personal liberty.
“We love NH and what it stands for,” said James Sorens, a Yale University political science professor who is serving as project director of the Free State Project. “We want to be a part of that, and we’re hoping our message will come through crystal clear.”
The group formed in September of 2001 and now, Sorens claims, has more than 5,000 members who have signed non-binding contracts to pack their bags for a new life in the Granite State.
The group is predominantly single, well-off, and educated males between 18-35 years of age.
“These people are most likely to move, settle, make roots and be involved in the community,” Sorens said. But 40 percent who have signed contracts are married, though their children “will not be using public schools,” he said.
They have already set up a home schooling association and others will attend private institutions, Sorens explained.
Michael Barone, a senior writer with U.S. News and World Report and principal co-author of The Almanac of American Politics, said the group appeared to be “a form of communalism that reminds me of Brigham Young and the Mormons.”
He said New Hampshire is already the most libertarian of the northern states because it has a “real force on national politics” and has “people who indeed vote with their feet.”
New Hampshire is home to 257 members of the Free State Project, according to Sorens, though only 20 who have signed the contract have moved in from out of state.
That is the first real test for the organization, Sorens said, getting 20,000 libertarians to move north.
“We’re not asking people to move until we get all the signatures,” he said.
Wyoming was the runner-up choice for the movement, with Vermont, Delaware, North and South Dakota, Montana, Idaho and Alaska also possible choices. About 1,000 members opted out of moving to New Hampshire when it was selected, which Sorens claims is “typical.”
Richard Vedder, an economic historian at Ohio University, said the success of the movement depends on migration to the state, which in the end will determine the movement’s ability to sway politics in New Hampshire.
But, Vedder said, 20,000 libertarians would only be able to change New Hampshire’s political orientation to a small degree. What the group is doing, he said, is “a more explicit way of doing what Americans are already doing.
“Americans already tend to move away from big government,” Vedder said, and to states that offer lower taxes, such as New Hampshire.
Every day for the past 3 years, 1,500 people have moved from high tax states to ones that offer some relief, according to Vedder.
Alan Bock, an editorial writer at the Orange County Register, said the Free State Project follows in the tradition of the migration projects in the United States of the mid-70s.
But those cases were different, he said, in that the Free State Project is not seeking a “utopian society.”
A challenge the Free State Project will face in New Hampshire, Bock said, is “when outsiders come with explicit political agendas, are they going to alienate them rather than influence?”
Jenna Wolf is a Washington intern with the Boston University News Service
This seems sort of odd and sort of imposing at the same time. Will this change the political climate of New Hampshire? The outlook about cutting social services scares the poo out of me considering we have issues with that ALREADY and are under-funded as it is.
Thoughts?
Anyone from Hatrack moving to NH?
This actually sounds sort of like what happened in Crystal City.
Maybe we can do this for Hatrack! Posted by Derrell (Member # 6062) on :
I wonder how successful they'll be at getting 20,000 people to move. I'd need a pretty good reason to uproot my life and move all the way across the country.
20,000 libertarians in the same place. Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
I too have to wonder about how successful the Free State Project will be, but while I am unwilling to sign a contract if it appears that large members are indeed moving then I might well consider doing so.
Posted by Destineer (Member # 821) on :
Reminds me of how the Southern and Northern states used to move their people into new territories to try and alter the balance of slave states and free states.
Posted by Dragon (Member # 3670) on :
I guess I don't know enough about what exactly their ideas are to know if I really like the idea but I don't think it will hurt... (then again, I also don't know how many laws and regulations are done by state and how changes in state regulations are brought about)
What strikes me as odd is that that's the Sunday edition of the Union Leader... and today is Saturday I think...
Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
But there are no libertarian states, although there are a few that come closer than the rest. Also, the people of NH are free to vote against undesirable policies and/or candidates if they really care, whereas with slavery it was one or the other with no change in existing states.
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
Ah, the irony of self-professed Libertarians working in a communal fashion to empower their message of personal sovereignty.
I say, go for it! It'll certainly make things interesting in New England.
-Bok
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
--I--
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
Hey, do you want a challenging hike this August, or not?? It won't be a challenge unless I'm involved.
Wanna do Monadnock (Spellman Trail up, Blue Dot (?) down) in 2 hours?
-Bok
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
I don't take the "leflip" kindly, miss.
I demand the proper respect (and sniggering behind my back).
-Bok
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
Oh, and since Kama is out this way in August, we all HAVE to do a hike somewhere.
-Bok
Posted by sndrake (Member # 4941) on :
Simple solution, considering the demographics described for the proposed invasion:
(don't know the exact nature of the NH state income tax) but either initiate or adjust the progressive state income tax. Increase the rates for the top brackets. They'll go looking for another state to invade. (Vermonters beware)
I think Bok's point is well-taken - libertarians working cooperatively is not only ironic, it's almost antithetical unless the personal gain is guaranteed.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
That confusion was over you saying that Monadnock is a challenging hike.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Um...
New Hampshire doesn't HAVE a state income tax.
We also don't have sales tax.
Or a seatbelt law.
Or a helmet law.
Posted by sndrake (Member # 4941) on :
OK - my statement prepared for that possibility. Initiate an income tax that applies only to high income earners. 20,000 fewer libertarians will be invading your borders.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
The day a state income tax is initiated in NH...
Posted by sndrake (Member # 4941) on :
...the state budget office will be able to come indoors instead of hanging out on the street holding out tin cups for spare change? Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
A state income tax would NEVER be passed in NH.
Posted by Richard Berg (Member # 133) on :
quote:I think Bok's point is well-taken - libertarians working cooperatively is not only ironic, it's almost antithetical unless the personal gain is guaranteed.
Libertarianism is all about empowering people to pursue their desired life, liberty, and property (Declaration), and to form relationships however they please (1st Amendment). Implying that they are solitary hermits is quite the strawman.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
To advance my libertarian definition meme, a libertarian is a person who disagrees with all the other libertarians.
Posted by sndrake (Member # 4941) on :
Any coordinated group action depends on elevating the interests of the groups - sometimes even above one's own short-term interests. This is a challenge with any political movement or group. Given that picking up stakes and moving is a risk for anyone, it's hard to see a groundswell of grassroots libertarian activists taking those kinds of risks - especially when the outcome depends on the nonguaranteed cooperation of others.
Libertarians are plenty capable of playing well with others. They get along pretty well, for example, with social conservatives as long as they're fiscal conservatives. They'll also vote for a socially conservative fiscal conservative over a socially progressive economic liberal.
Posted by Richard Berg (Member # 133) on :
Moreover, the entire philosophy of classical liberalism (as contemporary so-called "libertarians" see it) is geared toward shifting power toward local control. Browne runs for president mostly for show; meanwhile, the vast majority of libertarian politicians hold municipal and state office. As noted, they have a lot more in common with fiscal conservatives than, say, anarcho-libertarians (and I know several of the latter).
Posted by Dobbie (Member # 3881) on :
I don't like the way libertarians try to impose their libertarianism on everyone else.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote: A state income tax would NEVER be passed in NH.
I might join them just for that!
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
quote: They'll also vote for a socially conservative fiscal conservative over a socially progressive economic liberal.
quote: Moreover, the entire philosophy of classical liberalism (as contemporary so-called "libertarians" see it) is geared toward shifting power toward local control. Browne runs for president mostly for show; meanwhile, the vast majority of libertarian politicians hold municipal and state office. As noted, they have a lot more in common with fiscal conservatives than, say, anarcho-libertarians (and I know several of the latter).
It depends on how you define libertarian, but I do agree with what you're saying, Richard. Most people, yes, who claim to be libertarians are really little more than either hyper fiscal conservatives or state's right weasels who would be more than happy to see social mores enforced by the state level state and use the whole libertarian philosophy as a cover to *increase* government control through the state.
Myself, I think if you're going to call yourself libertarian and make it meaningful, you should support social liberalism as much as you support social conservatism, at all levels of government, if you really do believe in small government and the power of the individual.
Just my 2 cents.
Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
I myself am a libertarian who does tend to support civil liberties. This is due partially but not solely to the fact that even the economic "conservatives" want to tax the hell out of people, only for different things. The social liberals seem marginally more sincere.
Of course, I also have a definite interest in the increase of personal freedoms...
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
What mack doesn't tell you is that they have a 7.5 (is it 7.25?) percent meals tax, and they have rather large propoerty taxes... Both of which are higher than MA
(BTW, I realize my assertion of irony was tenuous, but I was playing toward the more public idea of what Libertarianism is. )
Of course, Richard, your broad-brush description is not unlike some of the basic principles and planks in the _Green_ Party platform. They also proclaim a return to more communitarian control. It's an interesting overlap, though I suppose you could say that the Greens are disingenuous (or the LP-types, for that matter, but for different reasons).
-- mack:
Well, doing it in 2 hours would be a tad challenging for the time constraint, if not for the actual trail difficulty?
-Bok
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Are property tax against the Libertarian Philosophy? Or are law enforcement supposed to work for tips? I know property tax going to schools would tick them. But their philosophy is that if people want services, they have to do something to pay for them. High Property taxes are in line with the "tax something for upper socioeconomic brackets" idea.
Anyway, best to not let my husband know about this project.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Bok: Considering I do upwards of 10 miles in four hours with more elevation gain...
Posted by Dragon (Member # 3670) on :
Meals tax is only 7.25%?? I thought it was 8%! Maybe they round up on the signs...
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
So it's a dare then?
I need the work out anyway. If you don't make me suck wind, I'll consider it a victory
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