Really, I think it's very interesting how sex threads seem to play out. A lot more focus seems to go on the girl and her actions...much more than concern for what part the guy plays. I mean, why has it always seemed as though it's the woman's duty to be chaste and good, whereas men are allowed to do whatever they want? Why do we have such trouble acknowledging that women have sex drives, too?
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:Why do we have such trouble acknowledging that women have sex drives, too?
Or that men are capable of self control?
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Good point.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
That nonsense really has to stop. It's irratating. People who skank around and cheat on their lovers or spouses are hos. the whole lot of them.
Posted by John L (Member # 6005) on :
pH, I wasn't concentrating on girls. If anything, men are more aggressive and irresponsible—especially when younger—than almost all girls.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
That's still no excuse. There's something called a brain. Men should use it.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
John: I'm not talking about you specifically. It's happened in every sex-related thread I can remember. Blah blah, girls need to stop being hobags, don't teach them about birth control in school because they'll go have sex, etc. etc.
No mention whatsoever of teaching boys self-control, respect, responsibility, etc.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
I said it in the MAP thread and I'll paraphrase here. I will always put more emphasis on the woman's responsibility because women have the most to lose when they sleep around. There seems to be alot of arguing that "men have equal blame, so stop picking on the girl" and it's true that men carry equal blame. But coming from a female POV, I want girls to realize that, while the blame may be equal, they carry more of the burden...in essence, more responsibility. So I will continue to "pick on the girl" because that's who I care about and who I really want to think about what she's doing.
I really don't think the women are any more to blame than the guys and I'd like guys out there to step up and be men, so that I can one day say that men and women have an equal burden. Can we start a thread about that?
Syn- Just from reading John's post, I'd suggest you're preaching to the choir.
[ February 20, 2004, 08:31 PM: Message edited by: PSI Teleport ]
Posted by John L (Member # 6005) on :
Yeah, I agree with you there about putting some pressure of boys. I get a little sick of seeing the "playa" mentality reinforced, too.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Then there has to be some sort of way to change this whole having sex with 5,000 girls is such a studly thing to do concept. It's not studly. It's nasty and disrespectful and leads to diseases as well as unwanted children... But, all people would benefit from a balanced healthy way of looking at sex.
Posted by John L (Member # 6005) on :
Yeah, that's what I just said.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I know.. shame we can't get any of these wannabe playas in here and deprogram them...
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
Electro-shock therapy!
I catch you looking at a girl and I'll zap you...in your owie-zone!
Posted by John L (Member # 6005) on :
You don't have to deprogram them, you have to give them better examples to emulate. When every known entertainment and role model outside the family reinforces this gender bias, it makes it difficult to deprogram anyone.
So, start with the people you know. Don't be bitter about it; be proactive about it.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I was going to say that this is wasted on Hatrack. And then I remembered Lalo...
Posted by Marek (Member # 5404) on :
By it being wasted do you mean that this group (for the most part) already realizes that the stereotypes and double standards about sex drive, self control, responsibility, etc., Or that it just will never get through?
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
quote:I was going to say that this is wasted on Hatrack. And then I remembered Lalo...
Okay, Pooka, I've ignored your passive-aggressive whines twice thus far, and this third time's starting to annoy me. Is there any particular reason you consider me a hobag, as Pearce put it? Or a wannabe playa, as Syn put it?
Really, cut it out with the pass-agg resentment. If you have something to say, say it to me directly -- and if you don't, honestly, it wouldn't hurt to shut up about how little you have to say.
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
Stereotypes? Try male promiscuity.
On median, women claim to have had around twice as many lovers as men.
Most women claim to have been sober when they first had sex with a lover. Most men claim to have been drunk (or similarly judgement-impaired) when they first had sex with a lover.
Posted by Richard Berg (Member # 133) on :
quote:I will always put more emphasis on the woman's responsibility because women have the most to lose when they sleep around.
On the surface, yes; I for one don't think I'd enjoy childbirth.
Before and after the big event, though, men have the most to lose. During sex, men open themselves to child-support liability even if the impregnation was via a used condom stolen from his room. During pregnancy, men cannot make the choice to have an abortion. During child rearing, if things hit the courts, ask any divorce lawyer about the sexes' relative chances to keep the kids / house / car, regardless of prior financial arrangements or of the alimony to be dolled out on top of it all.
Men of the world: keep the big head in charge of the little one.
[I see I was beaten to the promiscuity stats, so I'll leave them alone, except to remark that I forgot where I heard them and would like a link.]
Posted by butterfly (Member # 5898) on :
I think you're wrong. Females have the most to lose, as they are the ones responsible for the emotional fallout as well as the physical fallout. After getting pregnant, the female is the one experiencing the emotions of deciding whether or not to keep the baby, the impact on her future and the baby's future, etc. Guys don't have to worry about that, and in fact often just tell the girl to get rid of the child, without considering what it means to her. If she does have the baby, she has to go through 9 months of carrying the child and childbirth. Men are too stupid and too hotheaded to probalby handle that, which is why we females were engineered to have the kids (dumb idea in my opinion). The mother is the one more emotionally tied to the child because she is the one carrying the child, and the father does not have to go through those emotions and is able to leave anytime he wants to. Besides, the father should have to pay child support; he was stupid enough not to use proper protection. That's not much considering. Even though it does take two to tango as they say, the guy was probably pressuring the girl to have sex in the first place.
Posted by Zotto! (Member # 4689) on :
*hugs butterfly*
Men are really THAT heartless/unemotional/justplainstupid? ALL of them?
Edit: Or maybe you're being ironic and I'm just not sharp enough to catch it.
[ February 21, 2004, 04:21 AM: Message edited by: Zotto! ]
Posted by butterfly (Member # 5898) on :
no, not all of them.
it's just wrong to think that money is more important than the emotions involved, which is often the burden of the female.
Posted by Richard Berg (Member # 133) on :
The man who watches his ex-wife drive his children away (in his new car) doesn't have feelings? I'm extremely prejudiced against the notion of having kids, but even I think that would suck. The man in question needs to have his psycho-quotient meter recalibrated, no doubt, but some sympathy is in order.
quote:he was stupid enough not to use proper protection
I didn't make up my little quip. Carey v. Population Services, 431 U.S. 678, 97 S.Ct. 2010, 52 L.Ed.2d 675 (1977) There are also cases of rape and fraud where no exception was granted. Edit: Oh yeah, and age: all other contracts signed by minors are null and void, but the implicit contract in sex can legally bind a 16-year-old for more than double his present age.
Besides, women *do* get to make a choice after the fact. I'm pretty hesitant to grant icky life-taking abortions the societal stamp of approval, but on the bright side we could grant men the same right with a simple signature. But we don't. Keep those flys up!
I'm not sure a debate of "we have it tougher" "do not!" "do too!" really pertains to the topic, however. Why do we have problems admitting to female sex drives? Honestly, I doubt we do. Every issue of Cosmo and other girlie mags have "SEX" on the cover. The Bachelorette gets high ratings. Madonna is pushing 50, for chissakes.
[ February 21, 2004, 04:40 AM: Message edited by: Richard Berg ]
Posted by butterfly (Member # 5898) on :
wow, that was the second best attemped cop-out i've seen. i am merely disagreeing with your opinion, and then you describe it as "not pertaining to the topic"? it's amazing how we absolutely must stick to the topic in the subject line, which of course leaves no room for people disagreeing with you, right?
i think that both men and women have sex drives, but when men have sex with many women others think that he's cool and a stud, while when women do it they are called "skanks" and "whores". however, i think that this name-calling is mostly done by other females, instead of males. perhaps it's a jealously thing? i don't know.
i agree that there is a perception in society that women should control their sex drives, be chaste, etc. but for men that is just "boys will be boys" because men are more driven by their emotions. what makes me nervous is that this is the way it is and that it will stay this way.
Posted by Richard Berg (Member # 133) on :
Actually, I changed the topic because I thought it was obvious I had won Maybe women hold the emotional trump card, but my message is couched in terms that I hope have all the guys in the audience nodding their (big) heads.
Then again, there's not much to say on the original topic, either. If the people around you believe in stereotype X, I'm not going to convince you it doesn't exist. All I can point out is a societal trend toward Y, where sex by either party is a-ok. (A trend that's by no means new, of course).
I'll accept that there are peculiarities in the ways each sex reports back to whispering confidants. With men, there's always a tendency to boastfully compare dick sizes, figuratively speaking. With women, you get something more along the lines of Sex and the City. Same difference, says I; whoop de doo.
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
Your post didn't leave much room for discussion, butterfly. It was an inaccurate blanket statement based on, what, your personal experience?
Rich may have copped out, but I would've ignored it totally. I figured you were kidding.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote: agree that there is a perception in society that women should control their sex drives, be chaste, etc. but for men that is just "boys will be boys" because men are more driven by their emotions.
Not every society. One of the things I do love about my home culture is that making out with every girl in the ward is NOT the road to either respect or popularity. It's skanky.
Posted by butterfly (Member # 5898) on :
why do you have this perception sex and the city represents how life actually is?
[ February 21, 2004, 05:36 AM: Message edited by: butterfly ]
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
[Disclaimer: If, at any point in the following post, you think I'm talking about you, rest assured that I'm not. I'm talking about everyone but you ]
I think the attitude of "boys will be boys" continues to prosper because there are too many women out there who do give in to men far too easily.
Remember girls: You're the ones with the power. If you want men to become better, you have to make them do it. Too many girls out there don't have the self-esteem to realize that they, with few exceptions, have the ability to land a good guy. This leads to them giving in to a less-than-desirable man, which, in turn, feeds his "spread the seed" instinct.
Yes, women have sex drives. But do any of you women actually believe it even approaches the intensity of a man's? (in general. I've had the pleasure to meet a few women whose libido was close to mine. )
I suppose what I say is sexist--I'm definitely perpetuating the stereotype that men and women are different. But I believe my extensive research in the field of female sexuality has lead me to believe that my words have a little merit.
Posted by Richard Berg (Member # 133) on :
Far from it, given the rise of the term "metrosexual" as something distinctive rather than common. I'm not sure what you're saying by this. That female gossip in your experience is more critical of promiscuity? I can't deny anecdotal evidence, merely point to trends.
[edit: that was directed at butterfly]
Frisco's right, but he makes me laugh in the process. On guy-dominated boards the average posters complain about the unfairness of the courting game. Usually not in such terms, but by constantly dancing around the FACT, repeatedly admonished by the regulars, that if they want something they have to pursue it. The mirror issue for women isn't a perfect reflection, but the underlying need for confidence is even greater, lest their self-worth be overrun by testosterone infusion, or be warped into co-dependence, or worse.
quote:But do any of you women actually believe it even approaches the intensity of a man's?
Most guys have at least a few stories about demure and/or repressed girls turning into wild animals in the sack. It tends to all balance out.
[ February 21, 2004, 05:57 AM: Message edited by: Richard Berg ]
Posted by butterfly (Member # 5898) on :
my post was meant to disagree with rich's particular statement that men have the most to lose. it wasn't supposed to be taken as a blanket statement as society as a whole. everyone is different, and i'm sure a lot of the stereotypes are faciliated by those that are against those very stereotypes. it just seems that women are held at a higher standard, and when they don't meet that standard then society has the right to brand them as "bad" (however you might define that in your own mind). i think that it's unfair, because they failed to meet a standard that was set by others.
yes, for some reason i think that girls are more critical of other girls. it might be a jealously issue, but i know that are moments when a girl is secretly glad that another has failed at something, even when they are friends. it might be unconsciously, but i think that it does happen.
the following is only what i've observed, so don't get uptight (to those of you who might have). guys don't really seem to be about being jealous of each other's accomplishments, and they don't hold grudges against other guys, as some of my girl friends do against other girls. it's also odd that they don't seem to hold grudges against guys, only other girls.
[ February 21, 2004, 06:15 AM: Message edited by: butterfly ]
Posted by raventh1 (Member # 3750) on :
I will say: When a guy doesn't have sex, he is frowned upon by all peers.
Posted by HollowEarth (Member # 2586) on :
they don't hold grudges against guys because the guys aren't the ones denying them access to me. Posted by raventh1 (Member # 3750) on :
Yes, but the grudges exist because there is motivation for such an event to occur from the peers.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Frisco: Yes, I think that male and female sex drives are a lot closer to equal than most people realize.
And Lalo's not a hobag.
Posted by ak (Member # 90) on :
Lalo's not promiscuous? So, what, then? Does he just make all those stories up? <Remembers a quote by Lalo not too long ago pertaining to three women in bed with him, the one with the smallest breasts, etc. etc.>
I think it's true for both guys and girls that those who are promiscuous are lacking in self-respect. I think guys in general are perhaps far less secure than girls. Society is a lot harder on guys as they grow up, intensely competitive, cutting them no slack. Perhaps that's why guys tend more toward promiscuity in our culture. Thank goodness for LDS culture, that teaches guys and girls both to respect themselves in this way!
So it's never something to chastise someone about. Rather, it's something to urge people strongly to reconsider. To think about what they are doing to themselves (risk of disease, emotional hardening, lifetime-legal-commitments, etc.) and choose better. I think Leto is exactly right in that the right way to teach this is as a matter of honor.
I would also add, (for those hedonists out there ) that the sum of total lifetime joy and pleasure for monogamous couples is far higher than for promiscuous people. Promiscuity is sort of like addiction, from what I've seen. There's a very low proportion of happiness to heartbreak. The rush is far outweighed by the misery. So you don't ever miss out by staying chaste. Not ever.
[ February 21, 2004, 02:39 PM: Message edited by: ak ]
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
I'd go so far as to say that if Lalo's a hobag, I'm probably one too.
Promiscuity doesn't necessarily have to do with insecurity or a lack of respect for oneself. I think it has more to do with a lack of respect for the opposite sex.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Lalo, you regularly make remarks about your sexual prowess, sleeping with various folks and whatever. I know you are kidding, and I meant to be kidding too. I've mentioned it much more than twice, but if it hurts your feelings I'll stop it.
I know I have the Severe Hottie ID, but I am no more severely hot than Pat is a firebreather.
Edit: you said this is the third time, but I'm pretty sure I've still teased you more than that. But I don't expect that you make it a point to read everything I write. I sure hope playa is slang for player and not something more sinister.
For a while I avoided you and then I decided it is better to just accept that we have different lifestyles and not feel like I'm threatened by you.
[ February 21, 2004, 02:40 PM: Message edited by: pooka ]
Posted by ak (Member # 90) on :
Well, if someone would sleep with someone they didn't respect, it sort of shows they don't respect themselves much either, doesn't it?
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
I think it shows that they're selfish, not necessarily lacking in self-respect.
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
Heh. Wow. Anne Kate, I'm truly touched that you believe I'm man enough to bed three women at the same time -- more likely, though, you're inaccurately remembering a Jim Carrey quote I was spouting. It's a line from his stand-up act.
I'm not very promiscuous, despite all my bad intentions. Ever since my brother had a one-night stand with a girl diseased by AIDS, back in high school, I've had sex only in committed relationships. I've never had a plurality of women in my bed, though to be honest, that condition's not a result of my will.
But frankly, I'm amazed at your conviction that pre-marital sex leads to unhappiness and heartbreak. Honest, when I have sex, I'm not cursing and weeping about how little respect I have for myself -- I tried that the first time, and when my girlfriend got all weirded out, I decided it'd be smarter to stick with the classical "you like that?" lines.
The sum of happiness, as you put it, probably isn't higher for the mate-for-life group -- and honestly, claiming thus is pretty freaking ignorant. If your life's defined by your sex life, well, you have pretty low standards of happiness to begin with.
...or am I just that bad in bed?
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I'm glad that was a quote, but the thought of it applying to Jim Carrey is going to leave a mark. Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
As far as you go, Pooka, I've always made damn sure to keep my love life out of Hatrack. Not once have I mentioned my sexual prowess, except occasionally in jest, but I never mention how many people I sleep with -- and god, you think I do it "regularly"?
I think you're interpreting what you want to believe from my roguish charm and dashing good looks. While I do have a decent love life, I'm fairly responsible about it -- and I'm not really a "kiss and tell" kind of person, with the notable exception of the Costa Rica thread. And even there, I never gave details or names or dates about my sex life. True, I was in a bit of a haze of joy regarding my newfound status as a trophy gringo, and bragged about it incessantly, but I never betrayed those girls' trusts.
I'd love it if you could provide some kind of reasoning or evidence regarding my hobag status. If I am one, it's probably important for me to know it. Do you have any reasons to charge me thus?
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
We wouldn't know. Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
I say it's high time women embrace their inner ho. Clearly, everyone would be much happier that way.
Posted by ak (Member # 90) on :
I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings, Lalo. You know that I like you. But are you really trying to claim that you don't talk about sex all the time on hatrack? About what sex you are getting, or not getting and wish you could get, and so on, in rather graphic detail? What did you really expect people to think about you from all that talk? That you value monogamy highly?
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
I'm gathering that he's rather horny.
This isn't going to turn into a 'this offends me thread', is it?
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
quote:I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings, Lalo. You know that I like you. But are you really trying to claim that you don't talk about sex all the time on hatrack? About what sex you are getting, or not getting and wish you could get, and so on, in rather graphic detail? What did you really expect people to think about you from all that talk? That you value monogamy highly?
...I complain about how little sex I have, and describe the sex I do have in "graphic detail"?
I would love to have you back that up, Anne Kate.
And like I said above, if you think pre-marital sex means I don't value monogamy -- you are, and I mean this in the kindest way possible, pretty freaking ignorant. I have no problem with sex in a relationship, but I've never cheated on a girlfriend, nor have I ever given up hoping I'd come across a woman I'd fall in love with. To insinuate I'm just a womanizing penis with no commitment but what I see in front of me is damn insulting, and I'd expect better -- and yes, smarter -- from you.
Posted by ak (Member # 90) on :
I stand corrected, Lalo, and I apologize for wronging you in my thoughts. I must say I'm delighted to hear it. We will make a gentleman of you yet! Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
Moving away from the personal attacks/misunderstandings and back to the topic (what me, re-railing?)
I, as a 21 year old woman, do think this is a problem and have experienced this double standard. I think I am fortunate to never have experienced it in my personal relationships, but I am constantly aware it is there.
I personally think intimate (and sexual) relations are something very special and something that should be reserved for a loving (but not necessarily married) relationship. Men who think otherwise are in my opinion not worth my time. Luckily, I've found a partner who thinks the same.
But this is not all men, or boys. I say boys, because the worse sexual double-standard I have ever ever experienced is in my 1st - 3rd years at university. There I met boys (17 - 20 years) who not only thought that sleeping around as a boy meant you were a stud, but that wearing a short skirt as a girl meant you were easy. I'm happy to say that among my friends, none of these boys got the time of day (let alone anything more).
![[Evil Laugh]](graemlins/evillaugh.gif)
Maybe women hold the emotional trump card, but my message is couched in terms that I hope have all the guys in the audience nodding their (big) heads.![[Smile]](smile.gif)
]![[Cool]](cool.gif)
![[Angst]](graemlins/angst.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
I'm happy to say that among my friends, none of these boys got the time of day (let alone anything more).