I currently have a refurbished, two year old HP laptop with Windows XP installed on it. A friend of mine has advised me to switch to Mac, preferably an iBook or Powerbook, possibly refurbished. Now, cost is an issue for me, and I don't plan to sell my current computer and save for a while to buy one not much better. So, I know close to nothing about computers, would anyone mind explaining which is a better choice for me, the hard-working student?
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Ever used a mac (os x)?
What are you going to use your computer for?
No real reason to switch unless you're particularly dissatisfied with your computer, or want to do something like develop for *nix while running photoshop and such.
Posted by Maccabeus (Member # 3051) on :
I'm much better at doing your schoolwork than an HP, but it's illegal to have me do it. So there! Posted by Anthro (Member # 6087) on :
It will be for: internet surfing, games, writing, music, and possibly a bit of downlaoding.
Posted by Suneun (Member # 3247) on :
Size/weight. I don't know about the specs on your laptop, but many laptops are 7-8 pounds. The iBook and the smaller Powerbooks range from 4.6-5.9 pounds. This means a lot for some people.
If you want to upgrade your computer in general, it might be the time to buy a new computer. Are you interested in more hard drive space, or a cd-r or dvd-r? Do you need a firewire port or a usb port (though you likely have a usb port)?
With Mac OS X as fugu mentioned, you have a different desktop, one that some people prefer. If you have any nerdity in you, you might like the easy ability to script miniature programs in the command line (like one I use to convert jpgs into smaller web-size and create an html page for them). I use the Terminal (the command line interface) _very_ often, for checking on running programs, logging into another computer remotely, writing scripts, and using unix programs recompiled for the mac (see fink). A lot of the other stuff that Mac OS X has to offer is very pretty, which could appeal to you. Expose is a fairly useful feature (it can clear off all the windows at once so you can utilize the desktop itself), Mail's junk filter is quite good (it catches about 95% of my spam, and no false positives), and Safari is a good browser.
The iBook (I have lots more experience with that than powerbooks) is an incredibly stable machine, both in software and hardware. Apple has very good replacement plans for the first year for free, and extended to 3 years for a fee. My first iBook had a tracking problem with the track pad, and Apple sent me another iBook as a replacement _before_ I sent my iBook in so I could transfer files first.
If you really like playing top-notch games on your computer, then my question is... Why don't you own a desktop? I find laptops very silly for real games, or even the majority of my work.
An iBook is actually at a really nice pricepoint. The DVD/CD/CD-R 12" iBook (5 pounds) is $1k (education price). If you want the faster powerbook, the DVD/CD/CD-R 12" powerbook (4.6 pounds) is $1400 ($200 off regular price).
If you like watching the clock, buyer's guide at Macrumors.com (my brother's website, actually) offers all the dates of product releases. Apple tends to release things on a schedule, keeping the prices and upgrading the features. It's depressing when you get a new computer only to have everything upgraded a week later.
Edit: I apologize for the (excessive) use of parentheses.
[ January 25, 2004, 09:59 PM: Message edited by: Suneun ]
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Which games?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Let's put it this way: if you already own a two-year-old PC refurb, and you've never used a Mac, there's really no substantial reason for you to upgrade to a refurbished Mac.
Posted by Argèn†~ (Member # 4528) on :
quote:No real reason to switch unless you're particularly dissatisfied with your computer, or want to do something like develop for *nix while running photoshop and such.
He can do that on either platform. That said, I think a newer iBook or Powerbook would be a noticable improvement, but a refurbished one will probably not be.
[ January 25, 2004, 11:36 PM: Message edited by: Argèn†~ ]
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
quote:Expose is a fairly useful feature (it can clear off all the windows at once so you can utilize the desktop itself),
I hear Mac users bring this point up a lot, but isn't that the same thing as the "Show Desktop" button that's been a PC standard since (at least)Win98? Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
No, its not. There's a fine line between kludginess and usability, and Expose brings usability to a lot of features that have long been just into the realm of kludgy.
Also, while windows services for unix are nice, they are not as good as being on a real *nix such as os x by a long shot.
[ January 25, 2004, 11:54 PM: Message edited by: fugu13 ]
Posted by Argèn†~ (Member # 4528) on :
Why? For bragging rights?
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
What, exactly, is the difference, then? I'm curious.
Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
[ January 26, 2004, 06:00 PM: Message edited by: sarcasticmuppet ]
Posted by Rappin' Ronnie Reagan (Member # 5626) on :
quote: I think a newer iBook or Powerbook would be a noticable improvement, but a refurbished one will probably not be.
Refurbished ones are the same as new ones, with a little variation on specifications because some of them might be slightly older models (emphasis on slightly).
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
No, because its just not as *nixlike as actually being on one. Remember, we're talking about developing for *nix.
And while Windows Services for Unix is very, very good, its not being on *nix. 3.0, as mentioned here: http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=5751 and before were in fact almost entirely migration facilitators and didn't actually work like *nix (drive letter syntax required in the korn shell, for a simple example). 3.5 is much nicer, but it still feels a lot like windows. Also, windows just plain runs differently, attempts to benchmark certain aspects aren't going to go well.
Plus, there are some programs that just won't port. (far fewer than previous editions, luckily).
SFU is for integrating a windows computer into a *nix environment; a *nix computer is still a better *nix dev system.
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
In my experience, there are very few people who can use photoshop (or any other imaging systems) and do anything meaningful towards the development of Unix-based systems.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
In this case, about the capabilities of OS X as a *nix dev platform.
Posted by Mr.Funny (Member # 4467) on :
PCs are almost always the better choice if you like computer games. Macs are more useful if you are into multimedia stuff, like photo editing or video editing.
Posted by Suneun (Member # 3247) on :
Expose actually has several features, but the one I think is most useful to me is clearing away to desktop.
The one that I don't think is available on Windows (but certainly correct me) is the key to resize all open windows to fit on the screen at once without overlapping, so you can choose the window you'd like to be in.
Speed is never really THE issue in laptops, IMHO. All laptops run slower than their "equivalent" desktops. You get a laptop for portability. As long as it does the basics with reasonable haste (which they all pretty much do), it's fine.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Oh, that features available Suneun, it just doesn't work nearly as smoothly. Its has its uses, but as a fast application/window switcher its still too kludgy.
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
Alt-Friggin-Tab
Posted by Suneun (Member # 3247) on :
As far as I understand it, Alt-Tab is completely different.
Posted by Argèn†~ (Member # 4528) on :
There is still nothing you can do in OS X that you can't do in Windows, even more so with SFU installed. What I'm saying is that the advantage isn't there, and not everyone is a programmer who programs for unix/linux/BSD. You're showing advantages for someone who programs for those platforms, not actual overall advantages, and even some of those are debatable. The only real difference between a OS X and Windows is that they're not the same. They can do the same stuff, just not taking the same path.
Yes, alt-tab is not the same as what Expose is, not completely.
[ January 26, 2004, 01:25 AM: Message edited by: Argèn†~ ]
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
That's not my point. I'm just saying it allows you to switch between open windows quickly.
Posted by Argèn†~ (Member # 4528) on :
It also provides visually what Windows only does through the taskbar and a few other key combinations. It's a nice feature, Primal Curve.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
I was actually referring to tile desktop.
Alt tab isn't anything like expose; its a cool other feature which apple has quickly copied .
And no, you can't do anything on windows you can do on os x. The number of programs that will recompile for even the latest version of SFU is far less than the number that recompile on OS X.
Of course, there are many apps out there which will not run on OS X; this is always a tradeoff. But as far as *nix apps go, os x has the upper hand.
Also, I think you'll find the OS X workflow is significantly different; while one can accomplish very similar end results in many programs the paths to getting their optimally are often quite different on different platforms (when multiple program usage is required). I happen to find OS X's workflow preferable to windows's.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Oh, and yes I'm showing advantages for someone who codes for those platforms. That was what I asserted after all, and since you were disputing it, I assumed you were on the same ground.
Overall, yes, you can accomplish the same general tasks on both platforms. But that's not what i was arguing. I argued that OS X was a better *nix development platform.
Posted by Suneun (Member # 3247) on :
One is pressing alt-tab-(more tabs to get to the right window). Another is pressing F1 and seeing all the windows simultaneously and clicking or highlighting the one you want (or then tab between program windows).
I HAVE alt-tab. I also have this other thing which has the same goal, but different path. It's like pointing out that you have Outlook Express. Yes, they both get mail. But they're very different programs.
Edit: Sorry for the doubling up on you, PC. I just took a long time to write my post.
[ January 26, 2004, 01:37 AM: Message edited by: Suneun ]
Posted by Argèn†~ (Member # 4528) on :
Sorry, fugu, I should have made that clear. For someone like you, where programming for *nix is something you do a lot of, OS X is definitely better than the alternatives. Windows isn't a *nix development platform, though, which is why I was mixed up about it. They're two different environments, so it's obvious the development is going to be different on each environment. Not better or worse, just different. Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
From what it looks like on that link, you either have to have a 40" monitor or a magnifying glass on hand.
I'll stick with the taskbar. I like using the fewest clicks possible. I'm lazy. Posted by Suneun (Member # 3247) on :
Frisco: clarification.
They probably have a 20" monitor or something, which is why it's elongated. When you hit "F9" on your keyboard, all the windows shift quickly so that you can see everything at once, like in that screen capture. They all shrink to a size that allows them all to fit neatly. Then you click on a window, and everything resizes back to where they were, except the stack order changes. Or you can hit F9, and use the arrow keys to select the window if you don't like mousing over. You can do weird combinations, like F9, tab over so that only Browser windows are showing, then arrow over to the one you want. But that's a lot of keys.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
The wonder of expose is you can use it in no clicks . So clearly you should be using it. Right now I have the "show desktop" like function mapped to my lower right corner, so a flick of my wrist and I have access to my desktop, and a flick back and I have all my windows. This works well because I usually either want to open something on the desktop, or I want to drag something from the desktop to an app, and I can un-expose things using the corner while dragging something -- its quite nice.
I have the shrink all windows until they're all visible funciton mapped to the function key (its the very lower left key on the keyboard). The point of that function isn't to be able to see exactly what's happening in any window, but to be able to discern all the windows instantaneously, so that switching to one, even of dozens, of open windows is essentially a single action (one key press, one short mouse movement, and one click) and doesn't require any discernment, such as having to read window titles. I frequently use it when there's a good couple dozen windows open and I want to switch quickly between 7 or 8 of them.
Argèn†~ -- I understand you, and happen to agree. However, the reason for the misunderstanding is, that's all I ever said.
Posted by Suneun (Member # 3247) on :
and I'm off to sleep.
Anthro, I hope some of this evangelical talk is helpful to you. If you're really interested, you should wander over to the closest apple store, by yourself or with a mac-friendly friend. They can show you how to use the OS, if you get confuzzled*. If you don't live near an Apple Store, a few other places (CompUSA still?) also carry happy macs.
* 'Official' definition is "When a person is confused and puzzled at the same time."
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
One advantage PCs have for college students is that tech support at college computer labs are heavily PC-oriented.
Posted by Argèn†~ (Member # 4528) on :
Yeah, fugu, that was my mistake. Sorry. Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
No problem
Yeah, though there are a number of campuses with mac holdout groups. Also, most campuses have an apple rep who can help out with support a lot.
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
quote:The wonder of expose is you can use it in no clicks
Does it use telekinesis?
I would totally dig some software that actually read my mind.
[ January 26, 2004, 04:21 AM: Message edited by: Frisco ]
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Nope, hot corners. No clicks whatsoever.
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
Aww, come on! It takes considerably more work to maneuver my wrist to get the mouse into a corner than it does to make a single click. Especially with dual monitors.
Mind control. That's what I want!
Or voice control. I already want my whole house wired to my voice. I want mt lamp to go on when I say "Light!" I want my electric fireplace to light when I say "Fire!" I want my toilet to flush when I say...
Well, you get the picture.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Except to make that click, you have to maneuver your mouse to be there, and a corner is a very easy place to maneuver one's mouse to -- its a flick away. And for people with dual monitors and such, there's the wonder of keypresses .
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
I'm using telekinesis right now. Can you feel your hair getting warmer?
Posted by Kasie H (Member # 2120) on :
For the record, Expose is the coolest thing EVER. When Panther came out I spend about half an hour in the Apple store just trying to see how many different windows I could open on the gorgeous 23" display...
On another note, though, I have a 12" PowerBook with a tiny screen and Expose is really, really helpful. You can set up screen corners to activate it -- when I put my mouse into the top left corner of the screen,everthing I'm working on gets laid on in front of me. I don't even need to use the keyboard. And the bottom left corner wipes it all away to the desktop.
It's a great feature, because of it's cool factor AND its usefulness. I find it a lot faster than alt+tab or minimize/maximize on a PC -- I kept trying to get my parents' PC to do it over break (putting the mouse in the top corner)....It was ridiculously frustrating... Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I'm generally staying out of any PC/Mac evangelical wars, having voluntarily abandoned the IT field in the recent past.
One quick note - there is no form-factor advantage inherent to Mac laptops.
Windows laptops can be downright tiny to absolutely huge.
Platform and desired size should be separate decisions.
Dagonee
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
On the downside: in order to get Expose and do nifty things with windows, you need to install Panther and break your network.
Posted by Mike (Member # 55) on :
The more important part of this post:
Anthro: I'm guessing you're not developing for unix (correct me if I'm wrong), so a large part of this discussion is irrelevant. As far as games go, you will have better luck in general with a PC. There are plenty of games for the Mac, but not every game gets ported and it usually takes a while before the Mac version comes out. However, if you aren't a hardcore gamer, it won't make a huge difference. That's your decision.
One thing to keep in mind: no matter what system you use, you will be frustrated with it at times. There is no getting around that. Another question is, why are you upgrading at all? Is there something wrong with your machine, or do you feel like you need something faster?
I assume you know something about Macs, since you're considering getting one, but I feel that I need to elaborate on fugu's workflow comment. Perhaps the biggest difference between working on a PC and working on a Mac is the logical structure of the graphical environment.
Here it is: Windows is document-centric and Mac is application-centric. In Windows you simply have a set of windows open, each with a representation in the taskbar (more recent versions collect similar kinds of windows together: eg. all IE windows together, all Word windows together, etc. -- correct me if I'm inaccurate, as I've only been using Windows seriously for a few months). On a Mac, on the other hand, you have a set of applications open, each of which may have some number of open windows. Applications are represented in the Dock (taskbar-like thingie), as are minimized windows. (Used to be you couldn't interleave windows in different applications, but since Mac OS X you can.)
The alt-tab bruhaha: on Windows, alt-tab takes you to the next most-recently-used window, as I'm sure you know. On the Mac, command-tab (different key, similar action) takes you to the next most recently used application. Within each application, command-` (backtick, just above the tab key) cycles through the windows within the current application (unless this key sequence is overriden, but that is discouraged and uncommon). In every case, holding the shift key reverses the direction of traversal in the list.
The difference: for many people, myself included, the application concept makes it easier to keep track of a larger number of open documents without losing everything in a big jumble. YMMV.
Exposé is just a graphical way of doing either global or per-application navigation. It just happens to be extremely well-implemented and intuitive (by which I mean it fits the current keybinding model so well that a Mac user only has to be told of its existence in order to use it effectively (with a little experimentation)).
And the less important part of this post:
quote:On the downside: in order to get Expose and do nifty things with windows, you need to install Panther and break your network.
It's really a shame that I agree with Tom on so many issues, because sometimes the way he defends his positions is downright embarrassing. (I am running Panther and have no trouble with my network. What's your beef?)
Posted by Anthro (Member # 6087) on :
Thanks, Mike, that was helpful. You see, I've been hit by a series of viruses lately and I'm told Mac has better virus control. I'm not a hard-core gamer--my gaming is limited to Civilizations and other games for short periods of time.
My second question: how much do ya'll think I might fetch on my laptop? I have: 12" screen Windows XP DVD/CD Drive/CD burner Microsoft Office Two hour battery DSL and telephone cord ports Good speed and memory; I'll have the numbers in a moment
Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
Well, you can give it to me if you want.
Seriously, though, I wouldn't mind paying a few hundred for it.
[ January 26, 2004, 06:02 PM: Message edited by: sarcasticmuppet ]
Posted by Mike (Member # 55) on :
The primary reason you don't have to worry much about viruses is that few viruses are written for the Mac; there is probably little difference in virus control (although the default settings on most Mac apps make it harder to accidentally run untrusted code -- but take this with a grain of salt, as I have never to my knowledge had a computer of mine contract a virus). Civilization is definitely available for the Mac. Haven't played it myself, though...
Not sure what you'd get for your comp, but you might get an idea of how much to ask for by looking up similar systems on ebay.
Oh, and welcome to Hatrack! Posted by Anthro (Member # 6087) on :
Thanks. And, erm, thanks for the welcome, but I've been here since August, I think. My old ID(Black Mage), didn't seem to be working after the holidays when I returned. But thanks, I suppose.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
TomD, someone with a single PC laptop is unlikely to have much of a network to break.
There are known issues with Panther networking; if those are totally irrelevant to his choice I see little point in letting them influence his decision
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That said, I think a newer iBook or Powerbook would be a noticable improvement, but a refurbished one will probably not be.![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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