Just performing my civic duty by spreading news of this pernicious scam. Since almost all of us on this forum are sf readers and/or writers, I thought it worth passing along.
quote:PublishAmerica launched a new website called Authors Market, which is disguised as an anti-vanity site that gives advice to new writers. Interestingly enough though, the new advice takes two forms: 1) you'll never ever be published by big publishers, and 2) Science fiction and fantasy writers are hacks and liars, so never listen to their advice or what they have to say about publishing.
Under Never Trust The "Experts", the page explains:
A second caveat is that science-fiction and fantasy writers have it easier. It's unfair, but such is life. As a rule of thumb, the quality bar for sci-fi and fantasy is a lot lower than for all other fiction. Therefore, beware of published authors who are self-crowned writing experts. When they tell you what to do and not to do in getting your book published, always first ask them what genre they write. If it's sci-fi or fantasy, run.
Under Only Trust Your Own Eyes, it takes more swipes at real writers:
Let's look a little closer at those self-anointed "experts", the ones who call themselves author advocates, or watchdogs. You won't find too many of them, but they are usually loud. Their writing is typically characterized by the use of an overkill of adjectives, and by references to you being a victim of something. Their own book genre is almost always Science-Fiction or Fantasy.
That's why some of them are actually published writers. SciFi and Fantasy are among the easier genres, requiring no believable storylines, and no believable every-day characters.
...
SciFi and Fantasy abounds with literary parasites and plagiarists. Some writers have built a name for themselves by writing spin-offs of hugely popular movies, such as Star Trek, after all the characters and story parameters had been handed to them on a silver plate by the story owners who licensed the merchandising rights to a publisher. It requires some talent, but not too much, to write such a book.
There are others who, particularly in the field of Fantasy, rewrite all but everything under the sun that has already been written before. They rummage through books on mythology, steal a character here, borrow a plot line there, throw in a wizzard from King Arthur, and literally loot all the mythologies ever written.
Needless to say, these are rather obvious slams on SFWA's anti-scam watchdogs A. C. Crispin and Victoria Strauss. Crispin writes media tie-in fiction as well as original SF and Strauss writes fantasy. The page concludes with this note about any advice a published writer may give you:
Do not, repeat NOT, believe those who tell you the opposite, that new writers can be published by large traditional publishers - NM] because it is simply untrue. They elevate themselves by saying you can get where they have gotten, knowing quite well that this is not going to happen. They are the ultimate fact benders of the publishing world. They are not out to help you. They are only out to maintain their own elite status. Sounds familiar? That's right, this is how elites have always protected themselves and their peers.
The material is also laced with the names and in one case, the photo, of famous writers (King, Clancy, Asimov, etc.) and long lists of marketing categories in an obvious ploy to drive search engine traffic to the site so that their poison pen could do its work.
On the positive side, this shows that the good work being done by tech savvy genre writers in warning people away from scams like PA is having an effect. On the negative side, plenty of suckers still defend this snake pit.
[ November 29, 2003, 07:41 PM: Message edited by: ae ]
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
I WISH it were easier to write Sci-fi and Fantasy.
:gulp:
Maybe it IS, and I just suck. . .
Nah.
Posted by Julie (Member # 5580) on :
That site is horrible! I can't believe they're saying that!
Posted by ae (Member # 3291) on :
It is horrible. As Nick Mamatas says, Author's Market is just a front for PublishAmerica, and a damn sneaky one it is too: it convinces people to fall for their vanity publishing services by railing against (they wouldn't say other) vanity publishers. Disgusting. (More information here.)
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
What's the scam? Sounds just like any of the other websites out there offering random unjustified opinions.
Posted by Argèn†~ (Member # 4528) on :
quote:A second caveat is that science-fiction and fantasy writers have it easier. It's unfair, but such is life. As a rule of thumb, the quality bar for sci-fi and fantasy is a lot lower than for all other fiction.
I wouldn't say all fiction, but I feel that aside from bodice-rippers and most "christian" literature (the fiction, not insulting religious canon), I would say that sci-fi and fantasy offer a more easy palette from which to work. There are always exceptions, but I think that as a general rule, it's usually easier to create sci-fi or fantasy than other forms of fiction. One of the exceptions could very well be what is called "hard" sci-fi.
Posted by ae (Member # 3291) on :
Tres, the scam is what PublishAmerica does, which is promise the world, charge you a bomb and not deliver. Author's Market lionises PublishAmerica while singling out sf writers for criticism—coincidentally, the very community that's been most active in exposing their scam.
Argent, true enough, but it's harder to 1) do it well, 2) sell it after you've done it, and 3) make a living from selling it.
Posted by Argèn†~ (Member # 4528) on :
It's hard to do any fiction well enough to make a living, but I would posit that sci-fi is a genre where more writers get by with less than other equal genres (bodice-rippers not being equal). While the person you linked is being a bit extreme, I think the attitude is coming from a fairly understandable basis.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Do these strike you as legitimate or contrived??? They sound very overly done, all written in the same style and the mispelling of excellent is odd...
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
quote:Tres, the scam is what PublishAmerica does, which is promise the world, charge you a bomb and not deliver.
Hmmm... they seem to claim they charge nothing. Where does the fee come in?
Posted by ae (Member # 3291) on :
Argent:
quote:It's hard to do any fiction well enough to make a living, but I would posit that sci-fi is a genre where more writers get by with less than other equal genres (bodice-rippers not being equal).
I simply disagree. Why do you say that sf (please don't say sci-fi) allows writers to "get by with less"?
quote:While the person you linked is being a bit extreme, I think the attitude is coming from a fairly understandable basis.
Except it isn't coming from that basis at all. It's coming out of their pocketbook.
Tresopax:
quote:Hmmm... they seem to claim they charge nothing. Where does the fee come in?
Have a look. Posted by Argèn†~ (Member # 4528) on :
Why should I not say sci-fi? That's what it is. Fiction based somewhat in science. Fantasy is fiction based totally on the writer's fantasy. Are you one of those who will only use the term "speculative fiction" when referring to sci-fi? If so, perhaps you should investigate why you feel so strongly about that, because it may be causing more damaged pride than whatever insult this page originally meant.I like sci-fi, and hardly ever read any other genre when reading fiction (I don't just read fiction). I'll still say that in more cases than not, it's easier to write sci-fi (and, even more, fantasy) than it is to write other genres.
Does that mean other genre writers are currently better? Not in my opinion, because I mostly read science fiction when not reading non-fiction. Over-all, which genres have produced more rich and lasting works? I'd have to say that sci-fi and fantasy trail in that respect, and not just because they are "newer" genres. They appeal to me because I'm a bit geeky, but they just don't draw others like that. How many sci-fi or fantasy books make it to the top of best seller lists (I see many with the "best seller" stamp, but rarely see them on lists). Harry Potter? Those Dune books? What else? I think sci-fi and fantasy have a niche audience, and as long as an author can satisfy that niche, they will be safe to publishers. It certainly is so in the realm of short story sci-fi, and editors I've spoken to have hinted at it being the same for books.
Posted by ae (Member # 3291) on :
Argent:
quote:Why should I not say sci-fi? That's what it is. Fiction based somewhat in science. Fantasy is fiction based totally on the writer's fantasy.
I think with this statement you've proven pretty conclusively that you haven't a clue what you're talking about.
quote:If so, perhaps you should investigate why you feel so strongly about that, because it may be causing more damaged pride than whatever insult this page originally meant.
Look mate, this page is a scam, and I'm helping to make this fact known. Damaged pride has nothing to do with it; I don't even self-identify as a genre writer, and I had nothing to do with the original conflict that led to PublishAmerica's grudge agaisnt the sf community.
As for why I don't like the term "sci-fi", I'll be happy to go into that on another thread if you insist, but it has bugger-all to do with this one. Same goes for the rest of your post.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Argent, if you follow the rules as applied in the PA outline (weak characters, everything's made up) than certainly, science fiction and fantasy are less difficult to write than fiction.
And I MUCH prefer the term speculative fiction to science fiction and fantasy-- it's more economical for one; and much of genre doesn't even fit in the genre. (What is Perdido Street Station, for example?)
Speculative fiction writers who want to be successful MUST put more into their work than ordinary fiction writers because they are treating with things that do not exist. In order to maintain the suspension of disbelief, a good spec. fiction author must be more intense with their characters, their world creation, etc.
MUST. It isn't a choice.
And I'm not biased. I'm not.
Posted by ae (Member # 3291) on :
Scott, I agree with a lot of what you said, but I don't think this is the right place for it. If you or Argent are interested in discussing this (I definitely am), I'll start a new thread, or one of you can. This thread isn't a good place, because I can't help but see it as you (Argent) defending the deceptive rhetoric of PublishAmerica and its puppets rather than an issue by itself, and that puts a bad taste in my mouth that really doesn't deserve to be there.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
ae-- If I knew that we could control a threads direction just by saying so. . . man. That would've changed my whole Hatrack outlook.
Posted by ae (Member # 3291) on :
LOL. There's always a first time, right? Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
I'm still not sure what's so wrong with PublishAmerica... They seem to have a legitimate business plan with a legitimate market, as do most vanity publishing services I would think. All they do are pass on publishing costs (in one way or another) to authors confident enough in their stories that they'd risk that. There's nothing wrong with that, and I'd suspect it becomes more common in the future, given decreasing costs of publishing from technology.
Certainly, I'm sure they are quite inaccurate when they say this method is likely to bring authors lots of success, but you can hardly call them a scam just because they try to make their service look more useful than it is. After all, my Nike shoes are yet to get me into the NBA, despite the ads.
Posted by Argèn†~ (Member # 4528) on :
Scott, I agree that teaching weak characters and re-hashing plots is not really teaching people to write, but to copy other work and just change the words. However, just because this group seems to do that does not take away from what I said: science fiction is a niche market, and if you can meet the requirements of the niche, you will get published. I've talked to engineers and even a NASA scientist who put their hearts into their work, but even they will admit that most of the things they write come off as technical papers with fictional names/dates/situations. That's not good fiction, even if the science is astoundingly sound. The "hard" science magazines and anthologies I've read have often read like that, with a few gems that stand out as genuinely good. Still, those are short stories, and putting that skill into a novel is even harder -- according to people who are already regularly published. Who writes good science fiction novels? Usually people who are also good at writing any fiction. While the "science" part of sci-fi (or, if you like to call it speculative fiction) is what hits the niche, and it's easier to get published with good science and mediocre plot in that genre, both for novels and shorts. Kudos to the individuals who can get a whole novel from something, because it does take talent, but I would hesitate very much to place sci-fi (or speculative fiction) at the cream of the crop. Even the host of this forum, while being most popular for his science fiction and fantasy, has produced some of his best work outside the genre of science fiction or fantasy.
ae: If you are going to dismiss me like that, then I don't really see what can be discussed, since you have already made up your mind and are just seeking affirmation.
Tresopax: I think the main gripe with the site is that they are trying to sell the idea that an aspiring writer can follow some sort of formula or flow chart to further their career in the field, and are offering the formula for a price. The thing is, there is no magic combination that will work every time for any genre, so the site comes off as a scam, especially to those it insults (sci-fi and fantasy), while not offering any substantial proof that what they offer is really worth anything above Yet Another Opinion (tm).
Posted by ae (Member # 3291) on :
Tres:
quote:I'm still not sure what's so wrong with PublishAmerica... They seem to have a legitimate business plan with a legitimate market, as do most vanity publishing services I would think.
Most of which are also scams.
quote:All they do are pass on publishing costs (in one way or another) to authors confident enough in their stories that they'd risk that.
Then why are their cover prices so much higher than other, legitimate POD businesses? The answer, really, is in that article I linked you to.
quote:Certainly, I'm sure they are quite inaccurate when they say this method is likely to bring authors lots of success, but you can hardly call them a scam just because they try to make their service look more useful than it is.
What is a scam if not the promising of something that is never delivered? I quote:
quote:Question: Is PublishAmerica a P.O.D. Printer? Answer: PublishAmerica is NOT in any way a POD, vanity press, or subsidy publisher, and has nothing in common with them. PublishAmerica is a traditional, royalty paying publisher. (from FAQ)
We treat our authors the old-fashioend way—we pay them. (from banner)
They claim not to be a vanity or POD publisher. Yet they are. Ergo, it is a scam. Ta-da!
Posted by ae (Member # 3291) on :
Argent:
quote:If you are going to dismiss me like that, then I don't really see what can be discussed, since you have already made up your mind and are just seeking affirmation.
That's true enough. It's as if you had entered a debate with me over astronomy and the first claim to leave your mouth was that the world is located at the center of the universe.
Come on, think about it for a moment. "Fantasy is fiction based totally on the writer's fantasy"? You're an intelligent human being. Surely a little thought will show you how ludicrous this claim is.
quote: I think the main gripe with the site is that they are trying to sell the idea that an aspiring writer can follow some sort of formula or flow chart to further their career in the field, and are offering the formula for a price.
No. That is not my "main gripe". My main gripe is that they are snake oil salesmen taking real money from real people in exchange for a service that is an illusion.
Posted by Argèn†~ (Member # 4528) on :
If you're so worked up about snake oil salesmen, then you would be outraged at a lot more than just this site. From your very first post, you seemed to be taking this very personally from the site. I agree with you that they are a scam, I just don't agree with you on all of your qualifiers for calling it a scam (or the outrage).
Posted by ae (Member # 3291) on :
I am outraged at a great many things. Not all of them strike me as being relevant enough to post about here. This one does.
That aside, I'm not sure where you get the idea that I'm "taking it personally". Care to substantiate?
Posted by WheatPuppet (Member # 5142) on :
To Argent: I think you're wrong, but, take it to another thread.
I don't see what's wrong with PublishAmerica, but I certainly wouldn't go near it if I persued a career in writing. It's not a scam, I don't think, but it's certainly standing closer to the line than I'd like.
[ November 30, 2003, 06:32 PM: Message edited by: WheatPuppet ]
Posted by ae (Member # 3291) on :
Where do you draw the line?
Posted by WheatPuppet (Member # 5142) on :
Somewhere between here *points* and there *points*.
Sorry, I just can't get as excited about it as you. In many ways, PublishAmerica is no worse than Microsoft--inflated prices for a lousy product. The only difference between the two is that Microsoft holds 90%* of the market.
*or something like that
[ November 30, 2003, 06:36 PM: Message edited by: WheatPuppet ]
Posted by ae (Member # 3291) on :
Another difference is that Microsoft doesn't promise you free software that you end up paying for. Quite an important difference, I think. Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote: "Fantasy is fiction based totally on the writer's fantasy"?
Hah! I have the same comment about literary (academic) fiction!
Posted by ae (Member # 3291) on :
Scott: Am I the only one who likes both? Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
No-- I think Dante does, too.
Posted by WheatPuppet (Member # 5142) on :
No, Microsoft makes you pay money for software that you end up paying for again in two years while you have to deal with it dying consistently in the meantime. And since Microsoft hold so much of the market, it's hard to not use their products, so you aren't even given a choice.
I'm not saying that PublishAmerica gets my approval as a good business, but it's not the only company that uses smiilar techniques. Businesses that can't be labled outright as scams... yet.
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