anti-semitism is alive and well in the Islamic world.
Oh, sure, it looks visionary at first glance. But replace muslims with germans, and see how it reads. Should remind you of someone...
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
[ October 17, 2003, 05:26 PM: Message edited by: twinky ]
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Paul, I don't know why you're focusing on a few lines of (in my opinion) mandatory comment on the Jews when that's not anything like the dominant message of the essay, which is that Muslims must unite and become strong or they will continue to have a secondary voice in world affairs.
[ October 17, 2003, 05:28 PM: Message edited by: Storm Saxon ]
Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
Its not a few lines. Its riddled throughout the whole speech, and his target for the problems of islam is in every instance where he names someone, the jews, or zionism.
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
Didn't Bush already make that speech to the UN? Can't those Muslims write anything original? Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
I didn't see that. while he does say that the jews have people fighting for them, his overall message is that the west is stronger than muslims because the muslims are 1)fragmented and 2)not aggressive in their pursuit of knowledge because 3)they do not have the proper positive attitude (so to speak).
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
The mention that nearly half the Jews were killed at one time does not seem to reflect compassion. No absorption of the notion that that could be the very reason that Jews are very well organized.
A general question: Why is it idolatry to respect a flag but not idolatry to be so fixed on a particular piece of real estate?
Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
Oh, I agree thats there. In some respects, this is a visionary speech.
In other respects, full of hatred.
Aside from the obvious holocause remark, there's also...
" It is not surprising that they should excise Muslim land to create the state of Israel to solve their Jewish problem. Divided, the Muslims could do nothing effective to stop the Balfour and Zionist transgression"
"here is a feeling of hopelessness among the Muslim countries and their people. They feel that they can do nothing right. They believe that things can only get worse.The Muslims will forever be oppressed and dominated by the Europeans and the Jews. They will forever be poor, backward and weak."
" Is it true that 1.3 billion people can exert no power to save themselves from the humiliation and oppression inflicted upon them by a much smaller enemy? Can they only lash back blindly in anger? Is there no other way than to ask our young people to blow themselves up and kill people and invite the massacre of more of our own people?"
" It cannot be that there is no other way. 1.3 billion Muslims cannot be defeated by a few million Jews."
"But will this be wasting time? For well over half a century we have fought over Palestine. What have we achieved? Nothing. We are worse off than before. If we had paused to think then we could have devised a plan, a strategy that can win us final victory."
" We are actually very strong. 1.3 billion people cannot be simply wiped out. The Europeans killed 6 million Jews out of 12 million. But today the Jews rule this world by proxy. They get others to fight and die for them."
" We also know that not all non-Muslims are against us. Some are well disposed towards us. Some even see our enemies as their enemies. Even among the Jews there are many who do not approve of what the Israelis are doing."
"We must not strengthen the enemy"
And most damning of all... and this is TRULY damning in my eyes,
"They survived 2000 years of pogroms not by hitting back, but by thinking. They invented and successfully promoted Socialism, Communism, human rights and democracy so that persecuting them would appear to be wrong, so they may enjoy equal rights with others."
That is a truly horrible statement to make. Even if you grant that jews invented and successfully promoted socialims, communism, human rights, and democracy... we did so in order that it APPEARS wrong to persecute us, so that we may enjoy equal rights.
And what follows this up? The statement that all jews are the enemy.
" With these they have now gained control of the most powerful countries and they, this tiny community, have become a world power. We cannot fight them through brawn alone. We must use our brains also.
52. Of late because of their power and their apparent success they have become arrogant. And arrogant people, like angry people will make mistakes, will forget to think.
53. They are already beginning to make mistakes. And they will make more mistakes. There may be windows of opportunity for us now and in the future. We must seize these opportunities."
This speech is clearly directed at winning the war against jews.
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
Should they just sit back and be happy losing the war against Jews?
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Paul, all those statements that you quoted seem to bear out what I said. I'm not saying that he's not anti-semitic. I'm just saying that that's nothing like the main message of the essay and really serves to buttress his main points.
I don't see him saying that all Jews must die. I don't see him saying that all in the West must die. In a way, he is praising the jews. sure, he says they are causing problems and disparages them, but as well he's saying, look, if the jews can do it--become strong and powerful--and they're only a few million, so can we, isn't he?
His essay is about Islam, not about Jews. Though he uses anti-semitism as a stick to goad his audience into action, his main point is that the west is the enemy, not the jews.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
And 'enemy' may be too strong of a word.... Perhaps 'adversary' might be better?
Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
Frisco- Losing WHAT war against Jews? Good grief, man. Look at what you just said. Please.
Storm Saxon- Enemy is his word. Adversary is no better. THe jewish people are NOT the adversary of Islam. We're NOT trying to "diminish" muslims, or destroy their religion, or exterminate them, or any of the crap that gets floated around in speaches like this one.
Adversary is even worse, actually. In religious context, the adversary is often Satan.
You know what the main point of hitler's speeches in which he denounced the jewish people usually was? That the german people were once great and could be great again. We all know what that led to. This speech is written in almost exactly the same way. Start off explaining whats wrong with your people, then say how they can become stronger again, and finish with explaining how the Jews are the enemy, because they control the governments of nations that are oppressing you.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
His clarification pretty much goes with my evaluation of what he said. In fact, I think his apology speaks well of him.
Paul, if you inserted 'liberal news media' for 'jews' in his speech, you would have an exact replica of 99% of the conservative drivel out there. What he's saying is inflammatory and (possibly, depending on your perspective) prejudiced, yes, but is certainly light years away from 'all jews must die'.
[ October 17, 2003, 11:26 PM: Message edited by: Storm Saxon ]
Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
You can think what you like.
I think that I'm ****ing scared. Normally I self censor myself. This time, I'm letting hatrack do it, cause I can't understate how scared I am that this man (who you will note did NOT clarify his remarks) thinks that jews are the enemy, and deserving of persecution.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
K. Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
He didn't retract his statemen, the foreign minister apologized for him. THe PM who gave the initial speech was roundly applauded. he's an intelligent man, whom I have to assume chose his words carefully for such an important speech. the fact that he echoed the style hitler used to gain power and then hold that power speaks volumes of his character.
I honestly cannot believe anything other than that this man believes he is at war with the jewish people. His speech is worded JUST carefully enough so that the foreign minister can clarify his remarks, and it there won't be blatant contradictions.
I will point to 1400 years of jewish/muslim relations, and say "It is doubtful this man is using the word "enemy" and denying the basic human rights of jews, simply so that people will listen to his other ideas."
If history were not fraught with examples of leaders putting forth visionary ideals, backed up with anti-semitism, and then the anti-semitism leading to hundreds, thousands, or millions of jews massacred, I might be tempted to take a wait and see attitude.
Sadly, I can't be that open minded about someone stealing the messages of such great thinkers as Hitler, Husseini, Ferdinand, and others... In many of those cases, the attitude "Oh, he doesn't REALLY mean it, he's just trying to promote our nation" was deadly.
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
I only used the term because you did, Paul. Otherwise, I would've said Israel.
See, I didn't get "anti-Jew" from that speech. Probably because I wasn't looking for it. I got "anti-Israel".
Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
I used it because he used it. "The enemy" isn't specified as Israel, its specified as Jews.
Posted by Leto II (Member # 2659) on :
Are you Jewish, Paul?
If so, do you think that colors your opinion here? If not, why do you think this is blatant (descriptive sentences... pretend I've never experienced anti-semitism)
Are those comments racist? Apparently so. Is the implication made by Paul that "anti-semitism is alive and well in the Islamic world" fair to say? Well, it's fair to say that anti-semitism is alive and well in the WORLD today, but to make it sound like it is only an Islamic problem is disingenuous, at best. Heck, this isn't even counting that Arabic Islamics are of semitic descent (mostly because no one has counted them in the last century). The sad thing about the speech is that it reads very much like a Fallwell-lite type of speech, in content. But hey, Fallwell is representative of the Christian world, right?
Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
leto- yes I'm jewish and yes it colors my opinions. Jews have learned to watch for this stuff, because when it shows up, it means "Time to get out." A lot of german jews left their homes in the early 1930's because of speeches that read more or less like the one above.
Yes, anti-semitism is alive and well in most of the world. This speech just happened to be at a political level, directed at the islamic world. Most anti-semitism that is alive and well in the world, right now, is not in political speechs, and not directed at an entire people's. Perhaps it was unfair to say Anti-semitism is alive and well in the islamic world. If so, I apologize.
And yes, I know Arab Muslims are semites. I actually have remarked upon that before, so my phraseology was probably wrong. So..
"ANti-judaism" is alive and well in the world today, and in the Islamic world, its got strong political backing.
Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
As far as blatancy, this one does it well enough...
Realize that the "they" here refers back to Jews... not israel, not israeli jews, not zionists, but jews.
"They survived 2000 years of pogroms not by hitting back, but by thinking. They invented and successfully promoted Socialism, Communism, human rights and democracy so that persecuting them would appear to be wrong, so they may enjoy equal rights with others.""
Appear is a very important word, here. And the sort of language that means I hope all Jews in Malaysia are getting out as we speak.
" The Europeans killed 6 million Jews out of 12 million. But today the Jews rule this world by proxy. They get others to fight and die for them.""
THis is blatant, as its the exact same thing that other nations have used to rile people up against the Jews, before. Eastern European nations inciting pograms, Nazi Germany most significantly. But its appeared in almost all instances of violent anti-judaic sentiment.
Riddled throughout the speech are lesser remarks that make me wary, but those two scare the hell out of me.
Posted by Ryan Hart (Member # 5513) on :
I have to agree with Paul. The Arab world (especially the Palestinians) hates the Jews. It is shown not only by their words but by their actions. They have not only been attacked militaily but with trade action and refusing the Israelis UN membership until 2000.
Posted by prolixshore (Member # 4496) on :
I have to side with Paul on this one as well. Even though it is likely (I hope) that he was only using these anti-judaic remarks to support the rest of his speech, it shouldn't have been done. If I were Jewish I would be quite concerned about the language used as well. It seems pretty blatant to me.
--ApostleRadio
Posted by Leto II (Member # 2659) on :
quote:leto- yes I'm jewish and yes it colors my opinions. Jews have learned to watch for this stuff, because when it shows up, it means "Time to get out." A lot of german jews left their homes in the early 1930's because of speeches that read more or less like the one above.
Paul, my grandfather fled Germany because of that very political situation you're talking about. He married a Jew here in America (paternal side of the family, so I am not really "Jewish"). Also, I think I've been fairly clear elsewhere about how strict I am regarding racism in any form. My only nitpick with this thread is that you are aiming it directly at the Islamic world, and not at the speaker in specific. Yep, he's hiding behind religion—in this case, Islam—to justify an apparent hatred. This is no different from most other overt acts of racism, both in the past and in the world today. The thing which bothers me the most is that you are implying that Islam is somehow more anti-Jew than anything else, which I find to be incredibly false. Almost all of the Mid-East resents Israel, but if you believe that it's ecumenical resentment, then you are not aware of a great deal of recent (past century) history, nor the fact that throughout the greater part of the Milennium, Islam has been far more protective and tolerant of Judaism than any other faith.
My gripe with this thread is that you're basically saying "Islam is bad because of this," whether you mean to say so or not. If you were saying "Jews constantly keep getting misrepresented and hated, and this is another example," then I'd have no problem with the case you're making. My problem is that you're singling out Islam as if they are somehow going above and beyond all others hating Jews in general.
Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
Leto, there's not many places in the world were anti-judaic sentiments have political backing from the leaders of a nation, and when spoken to leaders of other nations, get applause from those other leaders.
Posted by Leto II (Member # 2659) on :
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