Apparently they [the U.S. Navy] have to limit their sonar use. But there is a loophole that says nothing applies in times of "war". Then the definition becomes what is "war". If they consider the Iraq occupation and terrorism to still be "war" then none of it matters.
Anybody have more info on the definition of "war" for this case?
aJ
[ October 14, 2003, 01:37 PM: Message edited by: BannaOj ]
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
I am Blubbering with joy on this announcement.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
At first I thought the "they" who have to limit sonar usage referred to the whales. I wondered why the whales would have a loophole about war, and how they would even know there was a war on.
Then I figured it out and felt Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
It's a war when it's convenient for it to be a war. Duh.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
dkw, I'm going to follow you around Hatrack to get your reactions to ambiguous posts. They are so much fun.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
sorry, I guess I'm good (or bad depending) about ambiguous postings. I was thinking of that thread that Rabbit had a while back on the topic of the Navy and whales.
AJ
Posted by Robespierre (Member # 5779) on :
I have no idea how the DoD will interpret this, but it would be logical to assume that the "war" would have to include the high seas as a battle ground. Now as far as I know, the terrorists do not have Nuclear subs and neither does Iraq. Active sonar is really only useful for tracking subs. Surface ships can be seen very well by radar, and even passive "listening" sonar can be used.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Just to let you know Robespierre, I really like you because you make me think outside my normal thought patterns.
To play devils advocate again though, when has the Navy(or greater miltary bureacracy) ever been accused of making sense or being logical about anything?
I have no confidence this ban will ever be enforced, though I wish it would be.
AJ
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
Why don't we ban radar? I'm sure it causes birds to fly into building.
[ October 14, 2003, 06:15 PM: Message edited by: newfoundlogic ]
Posted by Rhaegar The Fool (Member # 5811) on :
Iraq is not a war, technically it is a military operation. Is a congression bill to enact us into a state of war.
-Rhaegar
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Or if not birds, probably bats. AJ
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
The miltary's definition of "war" and congress' definition of "war" can be two very different things. Vietnam anyone?
AJ
Posted by Rhaegar The Fool (Member # 5811) on :
Vietnam wasnt a war, we couldnt send more than a certain number of troops.
-Rhaegar
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
What many people are easily forgetting is that when you ban sonar use or any amount of time you are essentially banning it, period. Why? Because in order to operate it you need to train with it. You can't just say we'll ban sonar during peacetime and when war comes around bring our the sonar sets. This doesn't just go for new recruits but for every sailor in the Navy, the Marines, and the Coast Guard. Try driving a car on the highway without having driven for two or three years, and that wouldn't be a fraction of the problem the sonar operators face. In a real war everything is different and unlike driving a car learning how to use sonar isn't a one time thing. It requires constant practice in order to hone your skills.
Now you might say that the sonar being banned is just one specific type that really isn't needed, but since that's the case we might as well do away with it entirely instead of just during war time.
Posted by Robespierre (Member # 5779) on :
Newfoundlogic, it is possible to train on sonar without actually using it. There are many very effective simulations that the Navy can use.
I do understand the disire to get real world expirience when involving national defense issues however. Is it possible that there are area's less likely to have whales that this technology could be used in?
As for how the ban will be enforced.... how did we find out about this problem to begin with? Did the Navy bring it up? I would guess not, they don't usually publicize facts that cause them grief.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
A couple of CS notes here. (CS NOtes--Notes of common sense, not politically motivated one way or the other).
1) This is not a ban on all radar and sonar. It is a ban on a specific type of sonar, a new high definition, extremely powerful systems that has proven to cause the death of sea animals including whales and dolphins.
2) Training on any new system not only trains the personell in the intricacies of a new system, but works the kinks and problems out of the new systems, problems that are not known to exist until real life trials are made. As such, completely disallowing any tests on this system would result in an unreliable system.
3) According to the article, there are some areas where the equipment will be trained on. They are limiting it to areas of SE asia where the animals most likely effected by this type of Sonar do not live.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
How did we find out about it? Dead whales turning up on beaches in odd places with melon damage, where whales ecolocation is centered from.
I'll try to find links.
AJ
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
Simulators are great. They really are. However, I wouldn't send out a tank crew to fight a battle just based on simulations unless you want wooden boxes delivered to some widows. Furthermore, unlike with other simulators this one would require constant practice with every single sonar operator in the Navy, Marines, and Coast Guard because the simulator would be the only thing keeping them up to date. A tank driver only needs a simulator once in his career and then he's off to practicing in real tanks. Again If you can't actually use the sonar during peacetime there's no point in using it at all.
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
It's a war whenever Ahab's hungry for whale-jerky
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
Whale-jerky sounds dirty.
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
Ralphie!
*tackle hug*
Where you been, sistah?
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
Being a carnie is surprisingly time-sucking.
I have a little time, but not much. Miss Hatrack, though.
(And whale-jerky does sound very naughty.)
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
We miss you too!
(((((Ralphie)))))
Posted by Audeo (Member # 5130) on :
As to how we found out about it, it's been in the news several times in the last year in my area. An abnormal number of whales, mostly gray whales I believe, have been found beached on shores. Someone happened to notice that the dead whales appeared soon after the Navy had tested their new sonar. There's been some serious scientific study happening since then, and evidently the environmentalists have proved that the new sonar is the cause of the whales being stranded and dying.
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They are so much fun.
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