Now that you read the aritcle I must express my thoughts. This scares me!!!! Why? I can't really explain it but it dose. I don't mind "girly" guys at all. I have a few friends who are very fem. and I even have a friend who is openly gay. But for some reason when you but a label on guys who care about there experience it adds a whole new level. Now, I don't mind guys who don't mind shopping but it is weird that a guy would enjoy it. Also, I don't think I could ever date a guy who goes to the spa to get a facial and have his nails done. I think the spa and nails thing is the worst part about it. All well, I just wanted to know your thoughts.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
My thought is that this is the fourth thread on this topic, which -- given that it's a rather silly and mundane topic -- is inexplicable. Posted by Zotto! (Member # 4689) on :
You were SO totally thinking about me when you made that "fem friend" crack, weren't ya, Dee?!
Posted by Rappin' Ronnie Reagan (Member # 5626) on :
This is the last topic on the last page. So it should be bumped. Yes. Bumped.
Posted by Troubadour (Member # 83) on :
Just out of curiousity, why is it weird that a guy would like shopping? I like looking my absolute best whenever I leave the house, and I enjoy finding great clothes - I also enjoy helping my lady-friends shop. Ever been into a women's clothes store and seen all the embarassed men shuffling about, trying to get across the idea that they're only there under sufferance? For Steve's sake - no-one is going to think you're there for yourself anyway, so just kick back, enjoy the view of your babe - and a half a dozen others - trying on lots of sexy gear! Even better, you get major kudos just for being there, and appreciation gained from taking an interest in her clothes builds up enough brownie points for a half-dozen boys-night-outs!
While I really couldn't be bothered with manicures and facials, I do use a moisturiser and facial scrubs. I try and match my skin toner/conditioner to my aftershave - it creates a much more subtle blend of aroma that way, and again impresses any women who have the opportunity to hang around in your bathroom...
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:I have a few friends who are very fem. and I even have a friend who is openly gay.
Why do you link feminimity and homosexuality?
Just curious.
quote:why is it weird that a guy would like shopping?
Because I'd rather be the narrator in OSC's 'One Thousand Deaths' than spend an hour in the mall.
Unless you're an Italian, it's just WRONG for a guy to like shopping. You can like clothes, you can be fashionable-- but to enjoy boutiques, clothing stores, or changing rooms requires either emasculation, or genes from the Mediterranean.
[ May 04, 2004, 06:49 AM: Message edited by: Scott R ]
Posted by Troubadour (Member # 83) on :
Hm... I guess you're right on that. I love clothes, I love being fashionable... but I'm much happier with the "just buy it and get the hell out mentality" - unless we're buying lingerie for her, that is... Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Tim Allen joked that when he and his brother were acting up, his mom would take them to . . . Sears. For clothes.
I remember very clearly shopping for Wrangler Toughskins when I was a kid. I wore the Husky size, which I don't think they have any longer. Wonder why. Hm.
From such small beginnings are the hatreds of our adult life ingrained. . .
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Oh, Toughskins weren't Wranglers. Believe me, I know, because for some reason Wranglers were cool and Toughskins weren't when I was in 7th grade.
Guess which ones I had?
Dagonee
[ May 07, 2004, 11:45 AM: Message edited by: Dagonee ]
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
You know, Dag, I think you're right-- I did a search for Toughskins on google, and it appears that Wrangler and Toughskins were different brands.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Isn't it amazing what trivial facts can be cemented into the brain by childhood trauma?
[ May 04, 2004, 08:24 AM: Message edited by: Dagonee ]
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Husky. . .
Posted by Happy Camper (Member # 5076) on :
quote:Why do you link feminimity and homosexuality?
quote:Unless you're an Italian, it's just WRONG for a guy to like shopping. You can like clothes, you can be fashionable-- but to enjoy boutiques, clothing stores, or changing rooms requires either emasculation, or genes from the Mediterranean.
Does anyone else find it odd that these two quotes were made in the same post? I realize (hope) you were kidding with that second quote. Just struck me as odd is all.
Posted by Alexa (Member # 6285) on :
quote: I don't think I could ever date a guy who goes to the spa to get a facial and have his nails done. I think the spa and nails thing is the worst part about it.
I agree. I think it is bad enough that girls go get facials and their nails done. It all looks silly to me. Why guys would want to emulate that is beyond me.
Posted by Phanto (Member # 5897) on :
Amazingly enough, the majority of the people posting on this thread would desperatly deny any claims that they are sexist.
[ May 04, 2004, 09:40 AM: Message edited by: Phanto ]
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I find it amazing that *anybody* would like to shop. Incomprehensible.
Posted by Speed (Member # 5162) on :
I'm right behind you on that statement, Alexa. Long nails look horribly disgusting on a male or female, and they're terribly impractical as well.
First off, a human's manual dexterity is one of the main things that sets us apart from the rest of the animal kingdom. Why someone would want to give that up for the sake of a look is beyond me. Have you ever seen someone with long nails try to type, use a calculator, play a musical instrument, make a fist, or do any other simple task? It would be easier for a dog or a monkey. Makes you wonder if they'd consent to have the logic centers of their brain scooped out if it became fashionable.
Second, long nails are filth traps. I don't care how carefully you clean them (and most people don't even try), there's an old agar plate at the end of your fingers, and they're being used to prepare and consume food. I'm no germophope, but it really is disgusting.
I personally find a girl with well-trimmed nails irresistably attractive. Of course I'm married now, but when I was dating, any girl with short nails automatically went up several notches on my chart. In fact, one of the main reasons I chose to marry my wife, rather than the other girl that I started seeing around the same time (other than the fact that my wife is wicked cool) is that the other girl had long nails and I could hardly stand to be around her.
I don't know who's with me, or if that's what Alexa meant with the anti-manicure statement. But that's my position, and I'm sticking to it. Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
I have no problem with so-called "metrosexuals." Actually, I think it's pretty amusing to date a guy who knows more about fashion than I do. It only starts to bother me when he takes twice as long to get ready in the morning as I do. And when he tries to blowdry my hair for me. Posted by peterh (Member # 5208) on :
Scott, it's blatant prejudice against beautiful dogs orginating from Russia. I'm guessing it's unamerican.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
Underlying this is why so many people consider guy-guy sex disgusting but think girl-girl sex is kinda hot, and the real, non-religious reason why so many people abhor homosexuality: they cannot abide the thought of a man acting feminine for any reason.
It's violating, on some deep level. Maybe it's an innate pack reaction to the Omega Male. Maybe it's because they react to feminine men on a genetic level as weak, less-than-men, easy prey. I haven't a clue. Homosexual acts have often been performed on prisoners of war, on weaker kids in boarding schools, on weaker inmates in prison, always more as an act of dominance than as a real sexual interest. The guy on the bottom is always the weak one, the one to be despised. But here are these guys over here who act that way on purpose! What are we to make of them? Ewwwww!
Girls can act as feminine as they want, of course, since they've always been the weaker sex. They want to kiss each other, no problem, because it just doesn't matter. Even the bible says nothing about lesbians. It doesn't take away a man's property the way that rape or adultery does, it doesn't waste vital seed, and it isn't icky like that "man lying with man" thing. Who cares? Except for those butchy women, they're just unnatural and wrong because they're trying to act like men.
There have always been men who have taken care with their appearance. In some times and some places it was mandatory (the French court, for example). "Metrosexual" refers to guys without obvious homosexual tendencies who take such care. What's wrong with that? Is there a separate word for women who like working on cars and watching football?
I do not, do not, do not understand why anyone cares how other people act. Are they honorable? Are they trustworthy? Are they honest and dependable? Then why the hell do you care if they take a half a day to pick out a pair of shoes?
Maybe I was born without a natural revulsion to gender bending, I dunno. But if you can't think of two guys together without retching, don't think about them. It can be done, honest. Personally I make it a point to never imagine Courtney Love with anybody at all, male or female. Yeesh.
[ May 06, 2004, 11:34 AM: Message edited by: Chris Bridges ]
Posted by WheatPuppet (Member # 5142) on :
I've had this argument with a friend of mine a bunch of times. I think the term "metrosexual" is an extraordinarily stupid word. It's not describing sexuality! It's not describing a metropolitan lifestyle! It's just a means of stereotyping.
As for how I feel about it, I don't like it. I think it's a waste of time and money. Why would anyone spend so much time on making themselves look better when they could have some constructive hobby? But, then, my dislike for fashion cuts both ways. I don't like it when women behave like a "metrosexual" man if that makes any sense at all.
I won't date women who wear makeup (except lipstick on an important occasion or to look goth-ish ). I don't date women who have more pairs of shoes than I do. I don't date women who spend lots of money at expensive clothing stores for the latest fashion that doesn't fit them very well anyway. I don't date women who are obsessed about their body.
That said, I do have two bottles of moisturizing cream (one scented and one not) and some good soaps. I also enjoy going into Bath & Body to smell the stuff (it smells GOOD!), but I don't buy anything. The moisturizers keep my skin from cracking in winter.
[ May 04, 2004, 10:48 AM: Message edited by: WheatPuppet ]
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
quote: Homosexual acts have often been performed on prisoners of war, on weaker kids in boarding schools, on weaker inmates in prison, always more as an act of dominance than as a real sexual interest. The guy on the bottom is always the weak one, the one to be despised.
[tangent] Chris, I've just spent 2 days re-editing a law essay of mine on pretty much the same subject. I argued that rape is a gendered issue not only because women are disproportionately the victims, but more fundamentally it is performed as an act of dominance. Whoever is the victim is forced to be submissive, and is thus feminized (in terms of traditional gender roles). I only bring this up because it is nice to see someone else here analysing rape as dominance/submission. [/tangent].
In terms of metrosexuals - who cares? Sure, I'd freak out if Tony got fake nails. But then he'd freak out if I did. If he does the same I do (clean 'em, clip 'em and sometimes nail harden them) I wouldn't care in the slightest.
And I started him on face moisturiser and daily spf 15+.
[ May 04, 2004, 11:02 AM: Message edited by: imogen ]
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
I think it's utterly sad to see this discussion go from the harm our parents inflicted on our childhoods by making us wear Toughskins to. . . homosexuality.
Make your own thread, dang it.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I know. We derailed this thread fair and square, and they're trying to derail our derailment.
Didn't you hate the reinforcement patches in the knees of Toughskins?
Dagonee
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
:weeps:
Those were the worst.
I used to have nightmares of Toughskins stalking me, throwing themselves on my bare legs, devouring me. . .
:weeps again:
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
I never wore Toughskins.
My parents loved me.
Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
I'd just like to say that I think being overly concerned with your appearance is equally silly for men and women, even if women do it more often. Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
My post wasn't expressly about homosexuality but about the irrational revulsion felt towards an effeminate male, which fits the topic perfectly, so nyah.
And I never wore Toughskins, but I did get stuck with OshKosh B'Gosh for awhile...
Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
quote:I won't date women who wear makeup (except lipstick on an important occasion or to look goth-ish ). I don't date women who have more pairs of shoes than I do. I don't date women who spend lots of money at expensive clothing stores for the latest fashion that doesn't fit them very well anyway. I don't date women who are obsessed about their body.
You do realize that such a girl may be very difficult to find, right? Especially the "I don't date women who have more pairs of shoes than I do" part. I mean, Jon Boy has three pairs of shoes: dress shoes, sneakers, and sandals. Simply because I work in an office in which I can't wear jeans to work, I must own:
1. Black shoes to wear with black pants. Brown shoes or sneakers with black pants is pretty much universally inexcusable.
2. Brown shoes to wear with brown or khaki pants. These are kind of optional, but they're not totally out there.
3. Sneakers for when I'm not at work.
4. Shoes to wear with dresses (I go to church). Rules 1 and 2 also apply here, but I get away with some pairs of shoes I can wear with both slacks and long skirts. But for light-colored skirts (especially short ones), I need light-colored sandals. That adds at least two pairs of shoes.
5. I got married. Add one.
6. I went to prom. Add one.
7. I went on a 50-mile hike in high school. Add hiking boots.
8. I haven't even mentioned sandals or flip flops.
My point is, I'm not one of those girls who spends tons of money on shoes and clothes, but I still own many more pairs of shoes than my husband does. Guys wear pants pretty much all the time. Throwing dresses and slacks into the mix requires at least two more pairs of shoes. I guess if you date girls who never wear dresses and don't have shoe-specific hobbies, you might find one. *shrug*
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
quote:Unless you're an Italian, it's just WRONG for a guy to like shopping
Here's my question: how can it be wrong when I look this good?
<--- Has at least 9 pairs of shoes.
Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
quote:1. Black shoes to wear with black pants. Brown shoes or sneakers with black pants is pretty much universally inexcusable.
2. Brown shoes to wear with brown or khaki pants. These are kind of optional, but they're not totally out there.
3. Sneakers for when I'm not at work.
4. Shoes to wear with dresses (I go to church). Rules 1 and 2 also apply here, but I get away with some pairs of shoes I can wear with both slacks and long skirts. But for light-colored skirts (especially short ones), I need light-colored sandals. That adds at least two pairs of shoes.
What's with the need to match shoes with all these outfits? Just get one pair of black shoes and use it for all noncasual outfits and one pair of sneakers for all casual outfits.
Also... sneakers with black pants is cool!
[ May 06, 2004, 12:13 PM: Message edited by: Xaposert ]
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
I like to look good. How is that silly? None of the guys here would ever date a girl who never brushed her hair or her teeth, and wore completely unflattering clothes, so why do you care if we take it beyond that just so that we like the way we look.
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
I'm wondering if the trend towards disliking the lavish, fashiony sort of femininity inherent in the shopping mentality has feminist throwbacks.
There have been times and cultures where men, rather than being appaled at the impracticality of female habits, would have been mystified and awe-struck by them. Did the "feminine mystique" and the acceptabliilty of those attitudes die with the advent of Betty Frieden?
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
I'm a little lost as to how the term metrosexual can be interpreted as "feminine"?
fallow
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
Lemme expand on that last one.
How does zealous lawn-care differ from a pedicure? Gentrification -> metrosexualization? Seems like a fairly natural and linear development.
fallow
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
Excessive attention to one's appearance is interpreted by many as sissified, girly, unmasculine. Could be because "real guys" don't have the time for it, or because the careful mannerisms required to maintain a clean and neat appearance can appear feminine, or because the men who feel that way have no inclination towards it themselves and therefore assume that anyone who does is unmanly.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
It could also be because the stereotypical views that men attract women by what they do and women attract men by what they look like still have a lot of power in the world.
Dagonee Edit: Of course, that only applies to people who hate the metrosexual phenomenom because of the "sissifying" aspect. I hate it because it's more emphasis on the superficial. I hate Queer Eye because they can be so insulting about someone based solely on his looks.
[ May 07, 2004, 08:23 AM: Message edited by: Dagonee ]
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Oh, Toughskinks weren't Wranglers. Believe, I know, because for some reason Wranglers were cool and Toughskins weren't when I was in 7th grade.
Guess which ones I had?
Dagonee
Somebody who knows my pain! And yes, I absolutely hated the knee reinforcement patches, especially when they started to wear out a bit, so then you'd get this nice worn-out square around your knees. Gah.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Who knew there were so many Toughskin-traumatized people out there?
Dagonee
Posted by Snarky (Member # 4406) on :
Maybe we should start a support group or something.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
Hi. I'm Chris. I'm a Toughskin survivor.
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
By the way, the blanket statement that men don't like to shop is not generally true. Most of the men I know enjoy going to a store and browsing things like books, electronics, or power tools. I wish that didn't work to reinforce a stereotype, but it turns out to be true for most of the guys I know.
Posted by Zalmoxis (Member # 2327) on :
I *liked* Toughskins. I had a green pair, a blue pair, and a pair the color of (cringe) rust [I wouldn't go near the color now, but at the time it was cool, plus it made sense because I grew up in the red rock area of southern Utah -- all my socks ended up turning pink].
I wore the green pair with a very fashinable long-sleeved Sesame Street t-shirt. It had a green collar and cuffs and the shirt itself was some weird photo-composite of various characters thing.
Posted by Snarky (Member # 4406) on :
Sesame Street? How old were you when you were wearing Toughskins?
Posted by Alexa (Member # 6285) on :
quote: I wish that didn't work to reinforce a stereotype, but it turns out to be true for most of the guys I know.
A lot of stereotypes are based on observation, so when we observe that guys tend to shop for video games and girls tend to shop for clothes, I don't think we are reinforcing something negative, but rather, just pointing out the AVERAGE of what we notice in our daily lives.
As long as stereotypes are used as general predictors of behavior and not specific predictors of behavior, I do not see them (stereotypes) as bad. It takes too much energy to not view our world in "models." One of our brains powerful talents is the ability to group and classify information.
I know when I talk with my friends or think to myself, every time I see a game store that is filled with mostly males, I do not think to myself or say to them, “Yeah, but there are many <insert female name you know> who also shop for Xbox, PS2, and PC games. If I comment on the ‘phenomenon,’ I tend to fit it into the model I know without a paragraph of thoughts reminding myself I am above stereotyping and listing all the reasons this scene is not representative of every individual person.
Posted by Zalmoxis (Member # 2327) on :
First grade.
And if you knew anything about late '70s early '80s fashion, you'd know that that shirt was tres cool -- even for seven year olds.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
My parents made me wear toughskins until 5th grade, when I flatly refused to wear them anymore, and begged them to buy me some Levis. My god I hated those pants.
The worst part was when those knee reinforcement things would start to peel, and the adhesive that had held them to the "fabric" of the pants would irritate my knees.
::shudders at the memory::
Posted by Snarky (Member # 4406) on :
See, that's why you weren't scarred, Zal. I had to wear them until at least sixth grade (maybe seventh—I don't quite remember).
Posted by jehovoid (Member # 2014) on :
Metrosexuals:
People who aren't allowed to ride public transportation anymore in Washington D.C.
Posted by Zalmoxis (Member # 2327) on :
I think I topped out at 3rd or 4th grade. By that time I hit a point where I could wear all my cool California uncle's hand-me-downs. My uncle is only 5 or 6 years older than me so in Utah I was still ahead of the curve when it came to fashion. .
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
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