This is topic The "Last Resort" - what sick parents will do to their children. in forum Books, Films, Food and Culture at Hatrack River Forum.


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Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
 
Here is one of the most disturbing things I have ever read. No, it has nothing to do with politics. It has also made me even angrier than the last RIAA fiasco. If I were to ever advocate the detonation of a thermonuclear device, I say drop it on Tranquility in Jamaica. In case you don’t have time to read the whole thing, I’ve snipped and pasted a few excerpts.

>> Tranquility is basically a private detention camp. But it differs in one important respect. When courts jail a juvenile, he has a fixed sentence and may think what he likes while serving it, whereas no child arrives at Tranquility with a release date. Students are judged ready to leave only when they have demonstrated a sincere belief that they deserved to be sent here, and that the programme has, in fact, saved their life. They must renounce their old self, espouse the programme's belief system, display gratitude for their salvation, and police fellow students who resist. <<

“I love Big Brother.” Room 101.

>> When most children first arrive they find it difficult to believe that they have no alternative but to submit. In shock, frightened and angry, many simply refuse to obey. This is when they discover the alternative. Guards take them (if necessary by force) to a small bare room and make them (again by force if necessary) lie flat on their face, arms by their sides, on the tiled floor. Watched by a guard, they must remain lying face down, forbidden to speak or move a muscle except for 10 minutes every hour, when they may sit up and stretch before resuming the position. Modest meals are brought to them, and at night they sleep on the floor of the corridor outside under electric light and the gaze of a guard. At dawn they resume the position. <<

I think that the Geneva Convention doesn’t allow treating prisoners of war this way, but it’s okay to send your kids to Jamaica to be tortured because you’re a crappy parent. It’s telling that the name of the organization that owns this is Wwasp. (Yes, with two w’s.) I’m utterly sickened.

Here is part two, the “testimonials,” if you will. Even more disconcerting than the first part – if that’s even possible.

>> Points and privileges are awarded to students who tell on each other. If you don't tell on someone for breaking a rule and get found out, you lose points. 'There is zero trust,' Scott explains. 'You can't trust anyone. It's not us against them. It's everyone against you.' Scott remembers a new boy being caught with incriminating used tissues; masturbation is strictly forbidden. 'And they got him up in front of everyone right after dinner, and the upper-level kids just ripped into him, this little 13-year-old kid. It was kind of the entertainment for the night. That's what I mean about breaking kids.' <<

As if onanism is somehow bad.

Those *$&@ing Puritans.

>> Tranquility parents say they know. They believe the programme is necessary and are usually very happy with the results, and who else is in a position to judge?

The US legal system has more or less agreed that they are right. In a crucial 1998 test case, a Californian court ruled that a parent had the legal right to send a child to Tranquility. Parental choice was sacrosanct.

What happens inside Tranquility would be illegal on British soil, but the facility falls under Jamaican jurisdiction and parents here are as free as Americans to send their children where they like. A spokesman for the Children's Legal Centre in the UK confirmed, 'I can't see anything in the law that would stop a British parent from sending their child there. It is appalling, but it is down to the Jamaican government.' <<

If I was plotting the kidnap and prolonged torture of a fellow Canadian citizen and I lured him out to, say, the Congo, got him out in the jungle, and kept him out there for three years while abusing and torturing him, I'm not sure that the Canadian government could prosecute me. Maybe, but I’m not sure. Does that make it okay? Hell no! Tranquility is disgusting.
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
This sounds a lot like that prison experiment mentioned on that other thread! Except it is still going on.

AJ
 

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Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
 
o_O
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
I've always -- ALWAYS -- hated the idea of parental-consent work camps; in my opinion, parents who send their children to one are basically admitting that they have failed to properly raise or care for their kids, and should be permanently required to give up custody as a consequence.
 

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Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
 
On the one hand I'm curious to know how many prisoners there are in Wwasp facilities worldwide; on the other I bet I'd be even more disgusted by the number of "parents" willing to send their kids away to be tortured.



We need a vomiting smiley.
 

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Posted by T. Analog Kid (Member # 381) on :
 
I second the need for a vomiting smiley. I think this idea is an obscenity.

C.S. Lewis warned that, if we started treating delinquent behavior as a disease raher than a misdemeanor, we would end up with something like this because punishment had to be limited to what was deserved, but a "cure" or "education" could go on without limit...
 

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Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
 
We need a vomiting smiley. I third the motion...any dissent?... the motion is carried.

[edit: I had to write this for anger management ... The smug, soulless and vapidly diabolical headmaster thought desultorily of how easy it was to toy with defenseless children and have them goose-stepping along like little storm-troopers and rolling over on their bunkmates like stray dogs; then he counted his money again and just couldn't stop laughing. [Mad] [Mad]

quote:

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Students are judged ready to leave only when they have demonstrated a sincere belief that they deserved to be sent here, and that the programme has, in fact, saved their life.

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So if you think the system is cruel and insane which it obviously is , you're doomed to grow old there?
Unless you lie.This place trains kids into becoming cynical rats, and when they come out they'll have less self-esteem than a crack-ho window washer!

No wonder I'm a hermit.

Note the simularities between this jail, Korean brainwashing techniques and cults


[ July 04, 2003, 12:13 AM: Message edited by: Morbo ]
 

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Posted by T. Analog Kid (Member # 381) on :
 
Related story Some good news, perhaps?
 

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Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
 
From T.'s link:

>> Dundee Ranch, the latest foreign outpost in a far-flung affiliation of behaviour modification programmes that promise to convert troubled American teenagers into straight arrows, lasted 19 months before the students rose up in revolt and overthrew their masters. <<

Emphasis mine.

Damn right. Good for them. I wonder if Wwasps "resorts" accept students with martial arts training? It would be ironic indeed if some students beat the stuffing out of the management.
 

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Posted by Ayelar (Member # 183) on :
 
I find it impossible to imagine, given this setup, that there aren't worse cases of abuse happening at these facilities.
 

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Posted by T. Analog Kid (Member # 381) on :
 
Especially student to student... getting points for telling? just insuring that there is a group that manipulates the teachers and really runs the asylum.... it's like a bad movie.
 

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Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
 
Good God. I can think of nothing that would make me so thoroughly despise humanity and my own family as quickly as this...this Orwellian nightmare.

I very much look forward to hearing about how every single staff member of this facility is locked away or executed for a very, very long time. Particularly the founder.
 

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Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
 
I'm reading more...this is a joke, right? I don't think I've ever hoped so much for something to be a joke.
 

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Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
 
(((Rakeesh)))

No, it isn't a joke.
 

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Posted by Human (Member # 2985) on :
 
I find this sickening. Something I found especially disturbing were the accounts of the 'therapy' sessions. They reminded me of scenes from One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. That isn't therapy, it's mindless torture. *growls* I almost wish someone would be such an idiot to send me down there so that I could show those poor brainwashed kids how to be human again.
 

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Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
 
I hope that once I have my karate skills honed someone will send me down there so I can beat the stuffing out of the management. I'm not a violent person, but geez.
 

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Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
 
You can't, Human. They would have five guards twice your size and twice your strength each putting you in "OP" before you could get much into telling the kids how horribly they were being treated.

This is an obscenity. To quote Bean, there'd better be a Hell so Kay and his staff can burn.
 

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Posted by Human (Member # 2985) on :
 
Who said I'd reason with them? I'd kick the crap outta as many guards as I could. I know, I know, it's unreasonable. But they DESERVE IT!
 

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Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
 
You misunderstand me. I share the same impulse-moreso, I suspect-than you. I'm just saying, it's impossible for anyone to do it from within. It can't be done. The staff and manager are, essentially, omnipotent within the facility. Change will have to come from without.
 

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Posted by T. Analog Kid (Member # 381) on :
 
I have never been one to engage in vigilante justice... this is a serious temptation...
 

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Posted by Human (Member # 2985) on :
 
Yeah, but from where? The Jamaican government has already shown it doesn't care, and they're the only one who has true jurisdiction over them. Unless someone sued the guy and got him shut down...I don't know how you'd DO it.
 

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Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
 
Hm.

Well, we could steal some nukes from Russia, find the "headmaster's" house, and bomb it. But too many innocent people might die.

So... I guess we could all just go Jamaica, buy shotguns on the black market, and have at it.




 

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Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
 
Count me in. These people are complete ...

even my vocab is taxed. They're scum.

quote:

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the students rose up in revolt and overthrew their masters. <<

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Finally some good news...

[ July 02, 2003, 11:41 AM: Message edited by: Morbo ]
 

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Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
 
I say we accuse them of harboring WMD and that they're an "imminent threat to Americans" and watch the fur fly...

[ July 02, 2003, 11:49 AM: Message edited by: Morbo ]
 

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Posted by T. Analog Kid (Member # 381) on :
 
they are, aren't they? I thought sure it said so in the article...

<evil grin>
 

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Posted by JaneX (Member # 2026) on :
 
That is sick. That is absolutely sick. It's also chillingly familiar. Children being brainwashed...children policing each other...

quote:

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Watched by a guard, they must remain lying face down, forbidden to speak or move a muscle except for 10 minutes every hour, when they may sit up and stretch before resuming the position. Modest meals are brought to them, and at night they sleep on the floor of the corridor outside under electric light and the gaze of a guard. [bold is mine]

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"We will meet again in the place where there is no darkness." Ministry of Love, anyone?

quote:

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These children do not just obey rules. They seem to have been psychologically rewired.

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"I love Big Brother." My God, this is one of the most disturbing things I have ever read. I can't believe this place actually exists.

~Jane~
 

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Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
 
Write to your two Senators, your Congressperson, and the President. It's what I did, and I never do that!
 

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Posted by Fitz (Member # 4803) on :
 
The problem here is obviously lazy, stupid parents.

quote:

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'Sure, he complained like hell at first,' he recalls fondly. 'Typical case of manipulation, just like they said in the handbook. He said the staff were mean and violent, they beat you, the food is terrible.' He chuckles, pleased by the neat symmetry of the handbook and letters.

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quote:

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'She's a neat kid, she really is,' a former student's mother says. 'She just didn't like us.' But now, 'I don't believe she's lying to me any more, and that's a neat feeling.'

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quote:

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Show me one kid that they can prove has ever been psychologically damaged in my programme,' demands Kay. 'To have a clinician say yes, it was as a result of this? I would find that highly suspicious.Show me one kid that they can prove has ever been psychologically damaged in my programme,' demands Kay. 'To have a clinician say yes, it was as a result of this? I would find that highly suspicious. Psycho Kay, Warden

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quote:

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Dr Marcel Chappuis was a juvenile court psychologist in Utah for 30 years, and has a PhD in clinical psychology. "I've got experience, and I will go nose to nose to you if you want to talk about it. I will go head to head with anyone. You get all kinds of people whining and complaining. They don't know what they are talking about."

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I don't even have a BS and I know I could mop the floor with him in an impartial debate.
I know more than a little about cults, as witness my meme/cult rant, done without a lick of research other than spelling checks.
I think this guy is the evil brains behind the out fit.
Where would a brain-dead loser like Kay pick up all these twisted behavior mod techniques??
Actually, this psycho place fits a lot of the criteria for cults:
the parents get rewards for recruiting new members
dissent or criticism is crushed mercilessly internally and ignored or discounted externally(see Dr.Marcel quote above.)
a (crazy) shared belief system
every thought and action is relentlessly scrutinized for deviation from the program
bland PR (web=www.wwwasp.com I think)that is 180 degrees from life in the cult
a strict hierarchy tweaked from above where you can go from top to bottom at the whim of another
rewards for ratting out your bunkmates' deviations
punishment if you're caught covering for him
the Leaders of the cult rake it in off the lower members, while keeping them in the dark as much as possible
cult members are encouraged not to trust one another so organized dissent is almost impossible
Rejection of the cult's ideals has severe consequences:parents will realize they've emotionally abused they're kids, and kids will never get out if they don't internalize the cult precepts
the entire program is planned around liberal use of multiple behavior modification techniques
complete control of victim's sexuality
bland, unnutritious diet

Yep. It's a CULT almost any sociologists definitions
My sister-in-law is a sociologist. I'll have to ask her.


[ July 04, 2003, 05:37 PM: Message edited by: Morbo ]
 

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Posted by qsysue (Member # 5229) on :
 

quote:

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'People who say this place is too harsh, they've never had their own troubled kids. If you criticise it you don't know what the hell you are talking about. And if you think you have had experience, then I challenge the success of your experience.' -Dr Marcel Chappuis

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quote:

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C.S. Lewis warned that, if we started treating delinquent behavior as a disease raher than a misdemeanor, we would end up with something like this because punishment had to be limited to what was deserved, but a "cure" or "education" could go on without limit...

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quote:

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A straight-A high-school graduate, she was heading for Harvard until an unsuitable choice of boyfriend had her sent here at the age of 17.

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quote:

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if your parents are psychotically Puritan in their moral views

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quote:

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...except that the torture at the "resorts" is used to enforce a stringently Puritan moral code - no looking at members of the opposite sex, no masturbation, "Sir" and "Ma'am" or "Miss" all around, giving thanks for punishment.

Sending a girl to one of these "resorts" for dating a boy her parents didn't like is ludicrous and does indeed suggest to me that they are psychotically Puritan in their worldview and morality. Twinky

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Thanks, Twinky. I'll have to add that to my list of cult characteristics in my rant above.
Control of sexuality is key to many cult programs
from the Moonies to the Branch Davidians.

[ July 02, 2003, 03:38 PM: Message edited by: Morbo ]
 

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Posted by Human (Member # 2985) on :
 
I've been roaming things on WWASP in Google...I'm surprised by the amount of anti-Tranquility Bay material. Or rather, the lack thereof. Most of it is propaganda or 'Parent Info'. I'm horrified at the number of parents stating how happy they are with their 'transformed' child.
 

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Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
 
My bet is they crush dissent with lawsuits like the Scientologists do

[ July 04, 2003, 05:38 PM: Message edited by: Morbo ]
 

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Posted by Sopwith (Member # 4640) on :
 
It's a crying shame that to they didn't make it so that the parents had to stay in a similar facility, under similar conditions while their children were in Tranquility.

Ever watch those talk shows where they send the teens off to "Boot Camp" because the parents can't handle them? Once I'd love for them to make the parents drop and give 'em 20. Kids can be bad, but most times, it's crappy parenting.

Sad, very sad.
 

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Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
 
Usually a nice mix of misinformed/learned parenting, psychological issues, power struggles and tough living conditions.

Or.

With families who have good living conditions but have all the other problems.

And no knowledge base of how to deal with them.

So they foist it off on others, scar the children and set up the next generation to learned bad parenting, doom, gloom and failure.

Whee.
 

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Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
 
Boot camps where you do hard labor and are confined are tough, but these people are absolute monsters.
Notice that they're all in 3rd world--presumeably corruptable---countries.
They couldn't do 75% of this insanity in any 1st world country.
 

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Posted by Duragon C. Mikado (Member # 2815) on :
 
I have to say that I do have some experience with this. My childhood best friend's new(at the time) stepmother treated him really badly and because he reacted (he was only 11) she first sent him to boarding school, then military school, then to a juvenile psychiatric lockdown in Utah. Why Utah you might ask? It's because Utah is one of the few states where is it not illegal to incarcirate your child for any reason YOU as a parent deem good enough. I'm serious, I was shocked to hear about it. My friend was a resident of Washington, where it illegal to do this, no matter what the age. If he had been able to escape the facility and call Washington CPS or SS then they would have initiated a suit to take him out of there and out of his parents' custody. I never heard from him for 6 years after he got to Utah. From what I heard his father had to trick him to fly there telling him it was only a "lay over." He told me that at the airport two big Samoan guys grabbed him and threw him into a van with bars and metal benches. So basically, because Utah facilitates this kind of thing, my friend was robbed of 6 years of his life - harsher than most criminal sentences - thanks to the fact that his stepmother didn't like him and Utah allows this atrocity to transpire. Maybe its changed in the last few years, but I doubt it.

[ July 02, 2003, 05:46 PM: Message edited by: Duragon C. Mikado ]
 

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Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
 
Uh, Morbo? Six out of the eight Wwasp schools on the website I checked are in the United States.
 

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Posted by littlemissattitude (Member # 4514) on :
 
I sat down and read the entire article. This sort of thing is just unconscionable and I, too, will be writing letters. This sort of torture should not be legal anywhere, and it should not be legal for parents who live in the United States to send their children off to places like this. It is child abuse, pure and simple.

And, yes, I agree that it is very culty sounding.
 

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Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
 
I bet they don't get as crazy as the Jamaican one, though.

thanks for the support on the cult thing, littlemisscool

I thought I made a good case---it was weird the more I thought about it the more cult characteristics I saw.
When i started that list I was just going to say cult-y or cult-like, but I convinced myself just "cult" is true.!

[ July 02, 2003, 05:56 PM: Message edited by: Morbo ]
 

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Posted by Duragon C. Mikado (Member # 2815) on :
 
He told me they would beat up students and medicate them with Haldol(sp?) and thoryzine(sp?) all the time just for kicks. These "Dial 9 restraining events" happened whenever a staff member wanted one, and even more suprisingly required no paperwork or documentation noting that it occured.

Apparently the place was a Charter subsidiary, but then was sold to an independant owner.

[ July 02, 2003, 05:56 PM: Message edited by: Duragon C. Mikado ]
 

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Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
 
Haldol and thorazine are first generation anti-psychotics. Quite sedative. Still used today but most certainly not a first choice anymore. Their side effects can be quite devastating after some time, the worst being a Parkinson-like affliction called Tardive Dyskinesia. You shake, tremble and lose control of movements, develops tics, etc.

Those who have TD are often said to have the "Haldol Shuffle" or "Thorazine Shuffle."

To use them willy-nilly on kids who aren't psychotic is certainly abuse.
 

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
 
Since this is done in Jamaica, is there anyone here (in the US) that can be written to that would matter?

Hobbes
 

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Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
 
If enough outrage surfaces via constiuent input to congress and lobbying, diplomatic pressure can be applied to gov'ts that are condoning/making money off of this.

If they can convince their kids by hook or crook to get on a plane, that's one thing...
But to be "arrested" in the middle of the night and bundled off to a foreign country is nuts ...kidnapping by parents. It sickens me.

At they very least, the American parents should not be allowed to bundle 'em off shackled with police escorts help.

That is almost certainly an over-extension of police power as well as 1/2 the bill of rights.

Even more pressure can be applied to US facilites.

[ July 02, 2003, 06:29 PM: Message edited by: Morbo ]
 

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Posted by TheTick (Member # 2883) on :
 
There's always diplomatic pressures, Hobbes. Besides, the guy who runs it is American, right? There may be something that can be done...

Or, Morbo will say most of the salient points.

[ July 02, 2003, 06:15 PM: Message edited by: TheTick ]
 

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Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
 
Would any lawyers comment on the "police escorts to the plane?"

This seems like a huge due proccess violation.

[thanks for the saliency,Tick. I try]

Also, 5 wwasp facilities are in Utah...so local gov't pressure can be quite effective---from zoning to taxes to child and welfare services investigations.
Utah mafia! Where are you when you're needed?
just kidding

[ July 02, 2003, 06:30 PM: Message edited by: Morbo ]
 

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Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
 
One of the kids said the police had escorted her, but everything from the adults says hired "escort service" or "guards."
 

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Posted by WheatPuppet (Member # 5142) on :
 
I think we should mount an expedition to Tranquility Bay to free the slaves imprisoned there. We shall arm ourselves with longswords in honor of a great activist for emancipation--John Brown (did I get that name right). He died for his cause, but we need not! *takes up longsword conveniently placed near computer*

I would be curious--and probably horrified--to see the aftereffects of one of these kids when they reached adulthood and the psychological constructs inflicted upon them begin to crack. What's going to happen when they're put in a position directly coutered to the conditioning they've been put through? Will they obey the letter of the law because it's "the rule" and, by definition, infallable?

From a legal point of view, how CAN this be legal? Aren't the rights of Americans abroad protected by the United States (there are exceptions, I know, like free speech waivers to enter countries like China)?

Certainly Jamaica, being a politically weak Carribean nation, would be forced to recognise the rights granted to the Americans in their country. There have been many Supreme Court rulings saying that, yes, minors are allowed all the protections and privlages of the Bill of Rights. Are not these rights inalienable? Yes. Even certain places on privately-held land are free-speech protected (like on parcels of land owned by the LDS Church, as discussed in another thread).

Where's the ACLU in all of this? They, one of the most opinionated groups in American history, must have an opinion.
 

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Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
 

quote:

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hired "escort service" or "guards."

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quote:

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I would be curious--and probably horrified--to see the aftereffects of one of these kids when they reached adulthood

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Hard to predict, but I bet the group as a whole would have more suicides, murders,crime,anti-social behavior,patricides, dysfunctional behavior,unstable relationships, major trust, security and intimacy issues, drug abuse, post-traumatic stress disorder and all the baggage attendant.... the list goes on and it's particularly bad psychologically because its they're own parents screwing them over]

quote:

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Something I found especially disturbing were the accounts of the 'therapy' sessions. They reminded me of scenes from One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. That isn't therapy, it's mindless torture. Human

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This same technique was used in a California cult that imploded in..'90??
[edit, quote from below-- I am still pulling crap.This is exactly what that '90's cult would encourage people to say in group--leads to giving up very personal secrets...they have really done their homework on cults]

Group is especially insidious because there is peer pressure instead of staff/patient hierachies, kids are forced to give up all their secrets and then later become the aggressors in group to other victims.This forces them to internalize the jail's precepts to have a prayer of escape.

[ July 04, 2003, 12:18 AM: Message edited by: Morbo ]
 

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Posted by WheatPuppet (Member # 5142) on :
 
Update:
I'm taking stabs at the ACLU website and getting no hits for wwasp or Tranquility Bay. I'm terriable at online searches, though, so maybe someone else could give it a go:
American Civil Liberties Union

EDIT:
I'm also going to check the forum and post this thread to it if I don't find anything.

EDIT2:

quote:

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On level 1, students are forbidden to speak, stand up, sit down or move without permission...

One girl currently has to wear a sign around her neck at all times, which reads: 'I've been in this programme for three years, and I am still pulling crap.'

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quote:

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Congress shall make no law...abridging the freedom of speech...or the right of the people peaceably to assemble...

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quote:

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...I knew I had to do something. I didn't want to lose him. I would do anything for him, that's why I sent him here....

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quote:

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Also, I notice that the organization is given 49% custody. Doesn't this mean that they are subject to the scrutiny of child protective services, regardless of nationality? The kids are American, after all.

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Yes. I noticed this and have never heard of such a strange arrangemnet.
It's an obvious attempt at liabilty shielding

[ July 02, 2003, 08:56 PM: Message edited by: Morbo ]
 

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Posted by WheatPuppet (Member # 5142) on :
 
It's interesting that the parents sign waivers protecting the facilities from civil suits, but that doesn't prevent the children, who can legally sign no such waiver, from suing after the fact. The problem is that because it's a cult--and it is, thanks for pointing that out, Morbo, you're absolutely right--there's unlikely to be any former inmates--slaves--who want to sue this place.
I still advocate breaking into the place wielding longswords and doling out vigilante justice.
 

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Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
 
It is impossible to sign away one's right to bring civil suits entirely. There are many things one can always sue for, regardless of anything one signed.
 

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Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
 
Yes! My cult defining skills have been validated!
Thanks WP.
I probably wouldn't have jumped on ot so quick if I hadn't just written that nutty meme/cult rant

[ July 02, 2003, 08:46 PM: Message edited by: Morbo ]
 

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Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
 
re Tactics:
I think some input from the outside world could do these kids a world of good.
Like just banners saying whatever, positive or funny or undermining the authority .
This is completely legal as long as your on private property ...
Or possibly a biplane flyby w/banner.
Anything to make the kids realize that somebody still gives a crap about them.
And it would be a great PR stunt...
Shine a spotlight on these monsters and they'll scuttle away like bugs
Cults hate any bad press.
Probably because it wises up the marks before they get sucked into it.

[ July 02, 2003, 09:15 PM: Message edited by: Morbo ]
 

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Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
 
I am sick. Really sick.

I just now got a chance to read through the entire thread.

That such a place exists, that people would really send a child there.

*shudders*
 

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Posted by WheatPuppet (Member # 5142) on :
 
Edit: I'm replying to Morbo, somewhat unclear.

Sweet! I'm soo up for it.
My dad was making noise about going to Jamaica this christmas. I wasn't going to go--I hate Jamaica, for many reasons--but maybe I'll reconsider and have 8,000 "Common Sense"-style pamphlets ready to drop from an aircraft rented while on the island.
*evil scheme brews*
I'm sure that would put me back in my dad's good graces, but that's a whole other sob story that I might post at some point.

[ July 02, 2003, 09:03 PM: Message edited by: WheatPuppet ]
 

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Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
 
*evil scheme brews* Mwhahahaha
*giggles*

Glad you like the plane idea, its realitivly cheap and if there's any int'l press coverage it might do more than cheer up the kids.
I might contribute for expenses if you're for real.
Also, protests could be organized, but jail's a possibility then.

[edit: Common Sense rocks! I started it on the internet a few weeks ago but never came back to it.]
Also, over 25 years ago John Brunner wrote Shockwave Rider.
It has a corp. called "Anti-Trauma INC." that uses extreme behav mod techniques on troublesome rich kids.
I thought it was over the top, but it's looking incredibly prescient right now
He has the main character Sandy curse an ATI employee to the bowels of Hell, and I heartily second the notion.

[ July 04, 2003, 12:19 AM: Message edited by: Morbo ]
 

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Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
 
Saw this on Squarepedia... What a waste. Sending kids to a place like this for mouthing off or wearing the wrong clothes.
First of all, some people should just not have kids. If they are not prepared to deal with the trails and tribulations of child rearing they should just not do it. Kids do not ask to be born.
Second of all, programs like this are ridiculous. All they do is break down a child's will until they have no mind of their own. What they should do with difficult children is send them to some poor country for a year or two. Make them work out in fields, help feed the hungry. See how lucky they are to have the sort of resources that they have.
They'd come back changed people, really changed people, not broken.
it also irrates me because who knows what goes on in places like this, sexual abuse, physical abuse, you name it...
 

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Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
 

quote:

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abroad are charged between US$30,000 and $50,000 in tuition and fees, generating yearly revenues of $60 million or more.

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quote:

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"a lateral arabesque with no hub except for these connections in Utah." He cites a network of interlocking directorships based on blood and business ties.

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Just like al-Queda is organized.

[ July 02, 2003, 09:40 PM: Message edited by: Morbo ]
 

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Posted by WheatPuppet (Member # 5142) on :
 
I couldn't tell from your post, Morbo, but I wanted to point out that I was referring to the Common Sense in terms of the pamphlet written by Thomas Paine before the Rev. War. It was a rabble-rousing thing, and only a few pages long, if I remember correctly.

Probably a better piece of writing from Paine was The Tempest, which began with the immortal words, "These are times that try men's souls,"
 

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Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
 
A few pages...
But I have the attention span of a wired gnat
 

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Posted by VenomsValentine (Member # 5359) on :
 
this issue is really about a whole societal epidemic-I know someone mentioned it briefly earlier, but talk shows have families on all the time whose kids areviolent and screwed up, and the parent tries to act all innocent and say, well I just can't imagine how my kid turned out this way! I've given my kid everything, and sure I was working all the time and ignoring him and let him get his values from school and tv but, hey, I was a good parent darn it! The day care epidemic is part of the problem (sorry for those of you who put your kids in daycare, but you don't really know until you've worked in one) I'm a preschool teacher, and I can see a big difference in kids who have been in daycare from infancy. They have a pack mentality. They are already like teenagers-caring more about what their gang of kids think than what adults think-after all, they've been through so many teachers by the time they enter school that they aren't trusting and loving anymore. And once school starts, it's all over. Kids today are already "institutionalized" by kindergarden, and society wants to blame THEM when they act like it? Problem is, society will have to change, not the kids, and it's easier to just shuffle the blame and punishment onto the easiest victims-the kids.
 

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Posted by WheatPuppet (Member # 5142) on :
 
As a side note, the King's adboys came up with a response to the Common Sense, printing the Plain Truth or something like that. There were a lot of things to like under the king, even though he was crazier than a junebug with alzheimers.
 

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Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
 
[edit:crazier than a junebug with alzheimers. LOL]

Just called WWASP 1-800-840-5704 and ranted.
Funny, it's not as cool as on-line ranting.
I came across poorly at first.
The guy defended him self remarkably well.
But he totally discounted independant reporting and their data.
Said 48 Hours did a piece on them awhile back that was negative (but in his mind wrong.)
Said he was "social worker" (vauge) with some psych training.
When I asked him about the uneducated loser in charge of Tranquillity Bay, he said roughly "but a behavioral modification facilty doesn't need a psychologist in charge."
Sheeeesh. He did well until that point.
But he came across as sincere and wanting to help kids.
I told him to look up these links we've been seeing, maybe he will

[ July 04, 2003, 12:21 AM: Message edited by: Morbo ]
 

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Posted by Gwynaria (Member # 5365) on :
 
Wow. I've read about these things before, but not as extreme as this. It reminds me of the Sunlight Gardener Home for Wayward Boys from The Talisman , by Stephen King/Peter Straub. They had a box that they would put the boys in, as punishment. During the novel, the box was broken, and police officers found writing on its inner walls. I can barely imagine what these kids from "Tranquility" would write. Are kids really that bad to be humiliated and abused like this?
 

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Posted by WheatPuppet (Member # 5142) on :
 
If they were allowed to write without spending some time on a tile floor.

I'd have to wonder if Ghandi-like passive resistance would work in such a place. I mean, these kids are considered so terrible because they act out, but what if one had the insight to not act at all, and encourage others to do the same?

Passive resistance is the most successful form of protest the world has ever seen, and yet is so seldom practiced.
 

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Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
 
Passive, nonviolent resistance can only work when one has an enemy that will report it and with a target that will be moved to compassion by it.

For instance, although this is extreme, passive resistance worked on the British with the Indian people because the British had a press that would report it, to some extent, and there was a world press to report it if they didn't. But passive resistance couldn't work in, say, Nazi Germany or more realistically in Soviet Russia because the enemy was entirely too ruthless and the population never heard about it or didn't care.
 

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Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
 
And they said one girl once spent eighteen months, off and on, in OP.
 

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Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
 
Rakeesh, good parsing of non-violent resistence. And add Dr. King (my dad once put together a jungle gym for him and kids,I kid you not) civil rights for the same reason plus TV .

 

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Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
 
Rakeesh, there is a big difference between "passive" and "nonviolent" when it comes to resistance.

Have you ever actually studied the tactics of coordinated, active, non-violent resistance? It was effective against the Nazis when it was used (which wasn't nearly often enough.) Ever hear of the Rosenstrasse wives?

quote:

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The reality is that history-making nonviolent resistance is not usually undertaken as an act of moral display; it does not typically begin by putting flowers in gun barrels and it does not end when protesters disperse to go home. It involves the use of a panoply of forceful sanctions—strikes, boycotts, civil disobedience, disrupting the functions of government, even nonviolent sabotage—in accordance with a strategy for undermining an oppressor's pillars of support. It is not about making a point, it's about taking power.

Another misconception about nonviolent resistance that policymakers and the media entertain is that there is some sort of inverse relationship between the degree of severity of a regime's repressive instincts and the likelihood of a civilian-based movement's success in overturning it. Three cases come to mind in illustrating that repression is not typically the decisive factor in the dynamics of these struggles.

First, during World War II the Danes gradually developed a broad popular nonviolent resistance to their German occupiers and—through actions such as cultural protests in the beginning and later general strikes—managed both to create the space in which to operate and to impose substantial costs on the Nazi regime for its decision to occupy the country. Even though the Germans were capable of more severe repression in Denmark than they chose to apply, the point is that there was a transactional relationship between the Germans and the Danes, and the Danes discovered that fact—and from that they derived the leverage to press their resistance.

An authoritarian ruler or military occupier wants certain services or benefits from the population, and those benefits can be withheld, albeit at a cost to those resisting. Ratcheting up repression does not necessarily work as a strategy to quell resisters, since when repression increases, more people are antagonized and join the resistance, and business as usual for the regime or occupier becomes even more costly to maintain. It's essential to understand that unless a regime wants to murder the entire population, its ability repressively to compel a population's compliance is not infinitely elastic.

This was illustrated in another case during World War II: the nonviolent public resistance of the Rosenstrasse wives in February-March 1943. Reacting to the internment of their Jewish husbands, hundreds of these non-Jewish wives and other civilians who supported them started daily sit-ins in front of the building at Rosenstrasse 2-4 where their husbands had been taken initially (many were soon shipped to the camps). SS soldiers shot into the air over their heads, shut down the nearest streetcar station, and tried to frighten them off, but they kept coming, their ranks swelling to a thousand. The Nazis were faced with a dilemma: To stop the protest, they could drag these women away and arrest them, or brutalize them in the streets—but the regime was concerned that that would inflame other Berliners, who would surely hear about what had happened. In a week Goebbels decided it was easier just to give them their husbands back, and he did so, transporting many back from the camps; 1,700 were set free.

Nonviolent resistance often confounds the assumption that the next degree of repressive pressure will somehow neutralize further resistance, because conflicts in which strategic nonviolent action is applied are not necessarily contests of physical force in all of their phases. The Nazis could have ended the Rosenstrasse protest on its first day, but they did not—they realized it was not really a physical problem. There was a political context: Killing Jews was one thing, but killing or even injuring non-Jewish German citizens, especially women, was quite another—it would tarnish their image (which is to say, potentially jeopardize the legitimacy of their domestic rule) at a vulnerable time, right after the German defeat at Stalingrad. The lesson: Their latitude for decision making was not automatically enlarged by their capacity for repression.
Another case that illustrates the importance of this question of legitimacy is that of Chile. No one doubted the willingness of Pinochet's regime, in the 1970s and early 1980s, to use terror as an instrument of repression in order to assure the regime's control: Disappearances, brutal killings of dissidents, and arbitrary arrests had silenced most dissenters. But once that silence was broken in 1983 in a way that the regime could not immediately suppress—through a one-day nationwide slow-down, followed by a nighttime city-wide banging of pots and pans in Santiago—the regime was no longer able to re-establish the same degree of fear in the population, and mammoth monthly protests were soon under way.

After it was clear that a broad cross-section of the population opposed the regime, Pinochet felt compelled to reassert its legitimacy, and so he went ahead with a scheduled referendum on his continued rule which, thanks to internationally supported poll watching and extraordinary grass roots organizing, he lost. Then his impulse to crack down was blocked when his senior military chiefs made it clear that they would refuse his orders to do so. What had happened? A seemingly innocuous protest had compromised the regime's ability to rule by intimidation, allowing the democratic opposition to organize and eventually capture a higher legitimacy, splitting the ranks of the dictator's supporters.

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Sojourners Magazine Sept-Oct 2002 Issue

[ July 03, 2003, 12:20 AM: Message edited by: dkw ]
 

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Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
 
In short, non-violent resistance is NOT about moving anyone to compassion, it’s about making repression more trouble/expense than it’s worth.

[ July 03, 2003, 12:27 AM: Message edited by: dkw ]
 

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Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
 
Hmmm...I understand what you're saying, dkw. You obviously understand better the differences than I do.

You're right, of course, that nonviolent and passive are different. However...

One thing that was clear is that the nonviolent resistance could only lead to successful results in certain circumstances. More, perhaps, than one would think initially but by no means does that mean every set of circumstances. In all of those circumstances, the nonviolent resisters had something in common: power. Even if it is just a little bit, they had the power to be a major thorn in their oppressor's side. And it was not always permanent, either.

With these kids in Tranquility Bay, though, it's different. Their environment is totally controlled. They are not allowed to speak or listen to anything, and they are subjected to numerous brainwashing materials all day long. Well, you've read it, you know as much as I do at least.

The point is that for nonviolent resistance to work in Tranquility Bay a child would have to keep resisting for years. Not only that, they'd have to keep up their resistance in solitary confinement. They wouldn't have a chance to tell other prisoners how or what they were doing. In fact, I quite suspect that some prisoner there did decide to take the route of nonviolent resistance...and they were immediately put into OP, and the staff lied to the other prisoners about what they were there for and what they were saying and thinking.

I keep thinking back to that girl who was in OP for eighteen months. I wonder if she decided to be the one to overcome the brainwashing and torture that goes on in Tranquility Bay. I can picture her struggling for months, mocking her jailors...and eventually being beaten down into submission.

Despite your informative (thanks for sharing, btw, I learned a good deal:)) link concerning the differences between passive and nonviolent resistance, I am still firmly convinced that neither would work in Tranquility Bay. For the purposes of combating resistance, the staff has essentially infinite resources...or near enough so that it doesn't matter. The prisoner has only themself, and only themself when they're slowly being tricked into being something weaker.

But perhaps I am too cynical. Is there a way it could happen? I am the romantic enough-after all, Hurin is one of my favorite characters in Tolkien-that I believe there are a very, very few people who simply Do Not Break under torture. But I don't think the chances of such a person ending up in Tranquility Bay and being permitted to stay and spread their mindset to the other students is very good at all.
 

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Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
 
As far as non-violent protests go , the all-time MVP
in my book is that little guy that stood in front of the tanks, arguing with the tank commander, in Tianneman Square.

Now that's brave.
I like to think of myself as brave, but all the tea in China wouldn't get me to do that.
 

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Posted by filetted (Member # 5048) on :
 
Can I ask a stupid question?
 

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Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
 
Nothing's stopped you before...*laughs*

Shoot

[ July 03, 2003, 01:08 AM: Message edited by: Morbo ]
 

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Posted by filetted (Member # 5048) on :
 
*Morbo makes the shot from half-court*

This is something that troubles me, but I'm not sure how to ask it.

Is this thread about that one article? I tried reading over the posts, but I don't recall seeing anything substantiating the initial post.

flish
 

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Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
 
It was about this stupid kid/jail in Tranquillity Bay in Janaica, now its gone into non-violent tactics

quote:

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I don't recall seeing anything substantiating the initial post.

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Huh?

[ July 03, 2003, 01:16 AM: Message edited by: Morbo ]
 

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Posted by littlemissattitude (Member # 4514) on :
 
A few comments come to mind as I read through this thread.

Morbo...Well, yes, it does seem like a violation of due process rights, especially in cases where no actual crime has been committed. However, I'm not sure how this works on minors in the control of their parents. I mean, ethically it should be the same as for adults. But in reality, I don't know how this works. I may have to do a little legal research, dust off the old paralegal skills....

WheatPuppet...Concerning the First Amendment, I don't really think it can be invoked in this case unless the institution gets government funding. Unfortunately, the wording of this amendment begins with "Congress shall make no law..." The amendment was extended to cover state (and probably local) governments through the 14th Amendment (I think that's the one...it has been way too long since I took my Constitutional Law class). The rulings have been mixed in regards to private entities. Private property that could reasonably be considered public places, such as shopping malls, have in some cases been ruled liable to allow free expression. However, places that cannot reasonably be considered public do not have to allow free expression of first amendment rights. (Sorry, I don't have any references for this right now. If only I knew where my notes from Constituitional Law were hiding....)

VenomusValentine (I hope I spelled your name correctly; please forgive if I didn't - I'll get it right eventually)...I think that giving the kids everything may well be one of the problems here. The parents are so wrapped up in the rat race of making a fortune (considering the cost of this place, I doubt there are many lower or middle class people sending their kids there) that they never spend any time with their kids, building a relationship with them. So they give them stuff instead. And then they get all upset when their kids act out or don't "like" them.

Well, I wouldn't have liked my parents either, if they acted like I was the least important thing in their lives. My dad worked hard, long hours, often seven days a week. He gave me the things I needed, but not everything I wanted by a long shot. But he found time to spend time with me, even if he had to take my mother and me (I? - I never have figured out this rule of English) to work with him on the weekends, when he was working seven days a week. And when he had to travel - sometimes he would be away from home a month or six weeks at a time - my mother and I went with him. We lived in motel rooms with kitchenettes then, and it was crowded but it was fun, and I knew that I was loved and valued. If it was during the school year, sometimes I went to school where we went and sometimes I just took assignments along from my school at home. Sure, there were a couple of years there when I was in elementary school where we were away from home half the year or more in total. It was a great way to learn about other places - I knew kids at my school at home who lived a 30 to 40 minute drive from the beach but had never, ever even been there because their parents were "too busy" to take them. Well, their dads weren't too busy to play golf on the weekends and go out partying all the time, and their moms weren't too busy to carry on their own social lives. And these were the kids who ended up acting out in the ways described in the article that started this whole thread.

Sorry for the rant. I'm really not saying that parents should give up their lives when they kids. Mine didn't...although they were not the sort of people who were inclined to go places very often where they couldn't take me. However, I am saying that having kids entails responsibilities beyond just feeding and clothing them, giving them a roof over their heads, and making sure they go to school. And if people aren't willing to spend some time with their kids sometimes, even if it means missing a night out with the guys or the girls once in awhile, then they shouldn't have them - or they shouldn't be surprised when the kids turn out not to like them very much. How can they like their parents, if they haven't spent enough time with them to get to know them?
 

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Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
 
wow, thaks for the legal input
littleredridinghood.

I appreciate.

and I agree about 1st amendemant rights...curtailed or non-existant on private property.

[ July 03, 2003, 01:22 AM: Message edited by: Morbo ]
 

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Posted by filetted (Member # 5048) on :
 
Morbo,

I meant. Everyone is going on off this one article? That's it? one piece of B&W?

flish
 

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Posted by filetted (Member # 5048) on :
 
LMA,

Your post is informative. Have you read the entire thread?

flish
 

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Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
 
I looked at several links including 2 newspaper stories and the survivor website...someone posted it I think Tom
and the wwasp.com website . wwasp is umbrella group behind it all

gotta crash,

peace out Morbo
 

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Posted by filetted (Member # 5048) on :
 
Ok.

I guess I just read the first link. My question was about whether people believe everything they read. Given one stupid article, I find it a little strange that folks start volunteering for executioner detail. This disturbs me. It has nothing to do with the right or wrong or what was posted. The reaction is frightening.

I'm wondering why people feel compelled to issue violent justice on some bit of news they read, and then why people feel compelled to jump on the lynching bandwagon.

flish
 

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Posted by filetted (Member # 5048) on :
 
*doubles post for effect*

I understand that people have passionate opinions. I also understand that the typical hatracker strives for a worldly, patient, and understanding view of the world.

This is precisely why I find myself extremely disturbed when threats of violence (as soon as the justification appears the frothing hounds are loosed) crop up. The band-wagon effect is even more disturbing.

There is a disconnect here. A very fundamental one.

flish
 

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Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
 
I know Icarus wanted us to stop throwing the word evil around so much. However, I can without a doubt say that this camp is Evil. It needs to be shut down right now.

Any pratical suggestions on how to go about doing this?

Edit to respond to filetted: This is not an isolated case. A girl died awhile back at a "wilderness camp" (re-education camp) here in Oregon. To me, sending kids off to a foreign country by force, without knowing the conditions they'll live under is pretty negligent. I also suspect that because of the reporter conditions were actually better than usual. I've also read about another Wwasp camp, Casa by the Sea, that employs similar brainwashing techniques.

[ July 03, 2003, 02:00 AM: Message edited by: Shigosei ]
 

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Posted by littlemissattitude (Member # 4514) on :
 
filetted...yes, I've read the entire thread. My reactions to the article, which I also read in it's entirety, are based on the fact that there are documented instances of these sorts of places existing. Even if there was some exaggeration in the article (I obviously have no way of knowing whether or not this is the case), news reports of injuries and deaths at other such places prove to my satisfaction that there are abuses taking place in the child and adolescent private corrections industry (I guess that is what you would call it). Since it is a matter of public record that there are places like this, at the very least, they should all be open to inspection so that it can be established whether or not the things presented in the article are taking place. If anything like these things are found to be taking place, the institutions in question should be shut down immediately.

As I was not one of those suggesting an assault on the place, I cannot speak to what moved the people who did suggest it, to make those suggestions.

Edited to add a missing comma.

[ July 03, 2003, 02:46 AM: Message edited by: littlemissattitude ]
 

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Posted by filetted (Member # 5048) on :
 
Shigosei,

I understand what you are saying. I'm not questioning the truth of the article or its relation to similar things. I'm questioning the response.

flish
 

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Posted by filetted (Member # 5048) on :
 
LMA,

The veracity of the article isn't what I'm questioning.

flish
 

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Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
 
Are you questioning the anger response or the violent response? I see no reason to question why this story upset people. As for the violence, some people may simply be venting without being serious. However, I think that force may be justified in this case, if not violence against people. For instance, I would not object to a court order to bring those children home, even if it required the local police to do it. And hey, if the U.S. could take Elian Gonzalez from his relatives' home with a quasi-military force (guns and all), I don't see how raiding Tranquility Bay is any different. Personally, I'd just like to see Congress make this sort of camp illegal here in the land of the supposedly free and put an end to abduction. No camps here, no transportation to foreign camps, and this particular problem goes away. No violence required.
 

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Posted by filetted (Member # 5048) on :
 
Shigosei,

Picture, if you will, the opening portions of this thread but in the real world.

Now, replace the first post, real, true, or not with anything intended to stir up people's self-righteous bloodlust.

From supposedly rational and compassionate human beings, the knee-jerk lurch forward into punishment, retribution, and life-taking seems exceedingly extreme.

flish

[ July 03, 2003, 03:25 AM: Message edited by: filetted ]
 

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Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
 
I'll take that as an "I'm upset about the violent reactions."

Fine, though I think the comment about dropping thermonuclear bombs was just hyperbole. I don't see anyone seriously advocating the use of deadly force or any real "blood lust."
 

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Posted by filetted (Member # 5048) on :
 
Upset about violent reactions? Yes I am.

On an internet forum?
 

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Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
 
Filetted,

It was quite difficult to understand what you were trying to say before you articulated it clearly. I think perhaps breaking up every sentence into seperate posts might cost you a bit of coherence until you have a several-paragraphs post...just a thought.

That said, I'm pretty surprised you're surprised. You're surprised that people, believing that article-which comes from a decent source, mind, and has been backed up by other corroroborating research-are furious over what is going on at Tranquility Bay? Are you seriously suggesting that people were being literal about things like going down to Jamaica with swords, or shotguns, or nuclear weapons? It was pretty obvious that was hperbole. I am forced to wonder if you're not being obtuse on that for the sake of argument.

The article wasn't "stupid". It's not strange or lynch-mob or bandwagon mentality that many people feel extremely angry over what is going on in Tranquility Bay and other similar prisons.

So...no, I'm afraid there is not a disconnnect, fundamental or otherwise. I'm afraid you're quite mistaken when you choose to view those horrified and angry at what's going on to vent a bit and express their anger as frothing hounds just begging for a chance to rend and tear something.

The "bloodlust" is not self-righteous, either. Look up the definition, if you like.

What do you mean by, "On an Internet forum?"
 

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Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
 
Edit: the criticism obvious in your posts is quite insulting too, by the way.
 

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Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
 
>> I guess I just read the first link. My question was about whether people believe everything they read. Given one stupid article, I find it a little strange that folks start volunteering for executioner detail. This disturbs me. It has nothing to do with the right or wrong or what was posted. The reaction is frightening. <<

It's called "hyperbole for effect," and I happen to make use of it more frequently when I'm angry.

I find it incomprehensible that you're more concerned are the reactions of random people on an internet forum than you are about what's going on at these "resorts," the existence of which has been corroborated by numerous sources, as you would have seen had you read the rest of the thread.
 

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Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
 
I feel you, flish. The rhetoric did get more than a little heated.

I tried to tone the violent rhetoric (after notching it up early) and find legal, constructive tactics against wwasp.

I don't remember ever becoming so instantly enraged about some organization.
I do believe it's essentially a cult, but I need to do more research.
I'd bet anyone, 20-1 odds, with out even checking, that wwasp has been extremly litigous against all critics (especially those kids) to silence any criticism or dissent in the media.[edited for smug bold tags--see verification in Buuusted! post below]
This is an extremly effective and legal tactic used to great advantage by the Church of Scientology to crush dissent for the past 50 years.
I stand behind everything I posted yesterday.
Your bud,Morbo

[ July 04, 2003, 05:54 PM: Message edited by: Morbo ]
 

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Posted by T. Analog Kid (Member # 381) on :
 
I will stand and say that it was not hyperbole for effect, on my part.

First, I should say that Morbo's idea of getting messages of support to those kids is awesome. I have taken resistance training and spent 48 hrs (I know, not that much, really) in a simulated POW camp and I know how much a simple message from the outside means. Should anyone here organize or find out about an attempt to send such a message, I would like to know about it so I can volunteer to help. Those of you that have read or seen Black Hawk Down may recall that we sent helicopters out to broadcast, night and day "Mike Durant, we will not leave you. We will not forget you" and how much that meant to him to hear that. Contacting Amnesty International might be good, too, though I suppose they would be involved by now if this was in their purvey. I guess political prisoners are more important than children.

But I seriously, and for the first time, mind you, was considering that perhaps a physical confrontation might be the only way to solve this one.

Say all you will about non-violent resistance... all the non-violent resistance in the world would not have prevented the Nazis from controlling Europe. This group has the blessings of the sovereign nation in which it is located and they are doing reprehensible things. They are doing violence to these children and it has been substantiated through several articles, one of which I posted myself. Hold to your non-violent principles as you wish, the simple fact is that once someone has shown themselves ruthless enough to use violence on others to get their way, only one expedient remains: violently subdue them. I agree that the gentleman in Tianamen Square was brave, heroic, and did something incredible.

Effective, however, he was not.

China continues in it's cycle of repression. Fortunately, they are not imperial and seem more than content to sit on their own people rather than subjugate others. These people will continue until some *force* legal or otherwise is brought to bear on them. They are not going to give up $60 million a year in income just because of a few episodes of civil disobedience. Looking at the article I posted (the revolt in Costa Rica) it was government officials stepping in which did the trick. Perhaps Jamaica can be convinced to do the same?
 

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Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
 
Rakeesh, when I started to write that last post, I agreed with you that non-violent direct action would probably not work in Tranquility Bay. I even started to write that as a disclaimer, that in a closed situation where the staff has such total control and the oppressor/oppressed ratio is so high it couldn’t work.

But then I stopped to think about it. Do they have the facilities to keep all their “students” in OP at once? How about half? If every kid in that place sat down on the floor and refused to move, went limp when they were dragged to OP and just plain refused to cooperate, what could they do? They’d almost certainly resort to violence, but if the kids were willing to be beaten and still wouldn’t move, what would they do? They could stop feeding them, but if the kids are willing to starve, then what?

The system at Tranquility Bay depends on the “upper level” participants reinforcing the system. What if they stopped? They’d be demoted and loose all their points, but what if they all did it? The catch to non-violent resistance is that the participants have to be just as willing to die for what they’re fighting for as someone who fights with a gun. How many deaths can Tranquility Bay afford? How many kids crippled from beatings? How many sent home suffering from malnutrition and with muscles atrophied from lying on the floor 24 hours a day for years? How long can they keep going if no one “advances” in the program? If kids turn 18 and leave rather than staying around because Mommy and Daddy won’t pay for law school unless they stick it out? And then take their return ticket and their $50 and start contacting the parents of the other kids? Heck, how many kids would it take if they turned 18 and said, “Mom, Dad, I don’t care if you cut me off without a cent, I’d rather live on the street than stay in this place one more day.”

TAK, effective non-violent resistance in this case would not be “a few episodes of civil disobedience.” It would be a campaign to make it unprofitable for the camps to continue to operate. I agree, they would not give up $60 million. But they could lose it.

I’m convinced that if you seeded Tranquility Bay with kids who’d been through Highlander or CPT training, it would be closed in six months. Of course, kids with that background would never be sent there in the first place, so it isn’t going to happen. But if other people on the thread can fantasize about nuclear weapons, I guess it’s okay if I fantasize about a nonviolent covert ops team infiltrating the place.
 

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Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
 
I'm the only one on this thread who has said anything about nuclear weapons.
 

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Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
 
Does that mean I can't fantasize a non-violent covert ops team?

Or does it just mean that only one person can?


 

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Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
 
We agree then, dkw. While it's possible for some people to successfully overthrow it from within, I think that Tranquility Bay screens for that sort of person, perhaps. Or else they're locked into OP on a more or less permanent basis.

As for outside intervention, though...for instance, a message being sent into the prison, or perhaps a "ringer"...I agree, that could definitely work. But it would have to be a lot of ringers. I think it's a given that, in the short-term, the prisoners aren't going to sign on with nonviolent resistance. After all, the staff has total power over them and as far as the prisoner is concerned, infinite resources with which to break them down (this is more what I meant when I said infinite resources...infinite for the purposes of dealing with isolated, infrequent resisting prisoners).

It could work, but it needs a critical mass, so to speak, before it's possible. I guess what I'm really pessimistic about is that critical mass being acheived from within, without outside effort.

It's a good dream, though:) A better one than mine, I'll admit, which could be loosely described as Batman-style utter butt-whomping of the staff and owners and hunting down the funders. Probably intimidation of the parents who are simply so negligent and wicked as to send their children to such a place-they aren't ignorant of what the camp does, they go to a seminar about it, too.
 

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Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
 
Putting ringers inside, while tempting, is very risky and would require $20000 or more for 1 kid.
He would have to be straight out of early Heinlein or Doc Smith to be effective.

[ July 04, 2003, 05:56 PM: Message edited by: Morbo ]
 

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Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
 
http://www.msnbc.com/news/932100.asp These parents seem to be doing the same thing, but they are doing the work themselves. Did anyone see this Sunday night on Dateline? It was interesting.

Also. . .

quote:

---

IV.History of behavior modifying institutions
Behavior modifying programs came into existence during the birth of behavioral psychology in the 1960’s. Investigators in the behavior research area first began these programs with institutionalized adult and juvenile offenders, hoping to deprogram their criminal behavior. At the time, criminal behavior was believed to be “a learned phenomena”. In such a closed environment, the behavior modification system of punishments and rewards could be stringently controlled.
In the late 1960’s and early 1970’s, these behavior modifying programs flourished. Studies show statistically short-term improvement in the reduction of undesirable inmate behavior for more desirable behavior. These changes in behavior were associated with the reinforcement contingencies of reward and punishment . However, in the late 1970’s, some problems were found in these institutions that led to reduction of many institutional behavior modification programs. The problems identified were: “institutional constraints,” “external political and economic pressure,”, “limited supplies and personnel,” and “the often deleterious methodological compromises caused by these influences”. Also staff resistance to adherence in the behavior modification procedures, and “staff perceptions that experiments were inflexible and dictatorial”. These institutions’ problems seem to stem from the use of coercion and lack of funding which may have sparked fear into the hearts of many--behavior modification programs gone bad.
In response to this trend, popular books and movies such as A Clockwork Orange, The Manchurian Candidate, Brave New World, and 1984 further amplified people’s fear of being controlled through “exaggerated fictional presentations said to portray some version of behavior modification”.11People’s fear of being controlled stems from the far-reaching abilities to control other’s behavior through behavior modification. Since the birth of behavior modification, words such as “brainwashed” and “mind control” have become part of the American vocabulary. These words also played upon the idea that people are afraid of losing their autonomy and dignity--of having their minds controlled by another. In a nation that respects the autonomy of persons, behavior modification could have negative effects when used on society as a whole. Heldman, a law review critique, “argued that behavior modification could be used to ‘impose an orthodoxy of ‘appropriate conduct’ on the community and thus to silence social and political dissent’.12 Heldman’s hypothesis may have ignited some of the attacks on behavior modifying institutions.
The most problematic attacks on behavior modification programs were legal challenges in court and in the House of Representatives. The most prominent of these was when the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) sued the notorious Special Treatment and Rehabilitative Training (START) program for the use of coercive strategies to achieve inmate compliance(U.S. Congress, 1974a). Congress was involved because “members of Congress...criticized behavioral technology and expressed concern about the treatment of research subjects and infringements on freedoms in therapy and research in general, as well as specifically in behavior modification”.13 Ultimately, START was shut down by the Federal Bureau of Prisons during litigation. Questions remain as to whether or not the behavior modification that replaced it post-litigation, was more coercive.14
As a result of the legal challenges and ethical issues pertaining to these institutions, by the 1980’s behavioral approaches to crime and delinquency were almost nonexistent. Behavioral approaches to crime and delinquency are referred to by Milan and Long as “the last frontier of behavior psychology”.15
V. When did these privately funded schools come into existence?
Behavior modifying schools and camps, known as boarding schools, had been established during the late 1960’s, early 1970’s and 1980’s. Privately funded boarding schools that had behavior modifying programs such as Cedu (est. 1967), Provo Canyon School (est.1971), Oak Creek (est. 1972), DeSisto (est. 1978), and Rocky Mountain Academy (est. 1982) were not well known.16 As shown through the growth of the teen help industry, these behavior modifying schools and camps did not become popular until the 1990’s. Now the aforementioned schools are well known among other newly founded behavior modifying schools and camps such as Tranquility Bay, Cascade, Cross Creek Manor, New Hope, and Red Rock Springs, to name a few. Recently, an alarming trend has been occurring in the teen help industry. Parents nationwide have been sending their troubled teenagers to behavior modifying schools or camps across the country, some to places as remote as Jamaica, Costa Rica, and Samoa. This explosive growth in the teen help industry is apparent in the mid-July 1999 web rankings ranked by the Alexa program at strugglingteens.com of behavior modifying/camps and sites related to them: 169,394 Intrepidnet Reporter, 240,383 Cascade School, 283,540 ASI, 417,337 SUWS, 566,957 WWASP, 592,368 CEDU, 660,723 Catherine Freer Wilderness Therapy, 673,273 DeSisto School, 900,894 Natl. Assn. Of Therapeutic Wilderness Camps, 970,730 Arizona Boys Ranch, 1,040,931 Cross Creek Manor, 1,043,904 Adolescent Guidance Services, 1,254,308, Red Rock Springs, and 1,781,847 Spring Creek Lodge.17
Since then, behavior modifying schools and camps, nearly 2,000 of them, have become the subject of controversy and have been brought to nationwide attention through the media. These schools and camps have gotten wide exposure in the last 3 years: in newspaper articles in major dailies throughout the country; magazines such as Time, Outside, and Seventeen; television shows such as CBS’s 48 hours; internet sites such as “Intrepidnet” and “Teen Liberty”; and Alexia Parks’ book, An American Gulag.
These schools and camps are the subject of controversy for three reasons. One, because they appear to be an improper response by “new breed” parents to place the parenting duties on a school because the parents lack the ability to parent or because they fear their teenager. Two, because claims of abuse have been brought to attention by teenagers that have been escorted to these schools. These teenagers are either suing or planning to sue the schools and their parents.18 Sergio Alva, a teenager who was escorted to Paradise Cove in Samoa, plans to file a lawsuit against Paradise Cove on charges of abuse.19 David van Blarigan, a teenager who was escorted to Jamaica Bay, is in the process of filing a lawsuit against the school and his parents.20 There are many other lawsuits in process. And three, ethical questions about the denial of the civil and human rights of teenagers have been raised. Teen-rights activists such as Alexia Parks have responded through various forms of media in an attempt to have these schools and camps regulated by the government or terminated.

---

http://www.seaburyhall.org/library/rhodara/compcl/grclass/gr99/vmartin/behaviormodify.html

So, it's not legal to do to adult prisoners, but okay for children. Children have no rights. Didn't y'all know that?

quote:

---

On foreign soil

U.S. laws do not govern the care American teens receive in overseas behavior modification compounds.

"The U.S. government is definitely aware that these camps exist, but they are run by private companies, and these private companies have agreements with the parents," said Rebekah Drame, a spokeswoman for the State Department's Bureau of Consular Affairs. "The country where the facility is located is solely responsible for regulating these private entities since it has permitted the facility to operate within its jurisdiction and is therefore subject to its laws.

"When aware of the existence of such facilities, U.S. consular officials conduct periodic site visits, sometimes accompanied by host country officials, to monitor the general well-being of the U.S. citizen enrollees. ... U.S. consular officials are not qualified to determine whether the programs offered by the facilities are of therapeutic benefit to the minors involved."

---

http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/desperate/site-desperate/mpg6-desperate.shtml
 

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Posted by T. Analog Kid (Member # 381) on :
 
I would not want to volunteer someone to try to work that place from the inside... it would figuratively be little different from the oft-mentioned guy in Tianamen Square. (Side note: this is really ticking me off... I need to look up his NAME, for crying out loud!)
 

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Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
 
No, I wouldn’t either. It wouldn’t be the most effective use of resources. I was just making the point that it could work. And it wouldn’t be any less effective than a group of Hatrackers planning a liberation raid.

If people on the outside really want to make a difference, I think they need to hook up with the survivors groups, work on publicity aimed at parents who are prospective customers, get legislators involved (especially re: the camps in this country), etc.

But possibly the most important is to develop and support effective, community-based alternatives for problem kids. Some of these parents just don’t care, some are fooled by the public-face that wwasp programs put out, but some are truly desperate and are willing to try anything. Not all of those kids were straight A students headed for Harvard until they picked the wrong boyfriend. Some of them need serious intervention.
 

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Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
 
TAK, he doesn't have a name.

From 1998. . .

quote:

---

The lone Chinese protester who brought a column of tanks to a standstill in Tiananmen Square during the 1989 crackdown was never arrested and is still at large, a Hong Kong-based dissident group has said.
.
.
.
.
.
The Information Centre for Human Rights and Democracy Movement in China says it has obtained official documents that show the Chinese government does not know what happened to him.

Although the man was initially identified as Wang Weilin, the documents suggest the name was false.
.
.
.
Time magazine has cited the unidentified protester as one of the "top 20 leaders and revolutionaries" of the 20th century.

Dubbing him "the Unknown Rebel," the American news journal said his moment of fame was seen by more people than laid eyes on Winston Churchill, Albert Einstein and James Joyce combined.

---

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/75679.stm
And the Time article.
 

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Posted by T. Analog Kid (Member # 381) on :
 
<green with envy while bowing to Kayla's superior command of useless knowledge>
 

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Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
 
Buuuusted!!! ::smug::
Look at my post above where I said wwasp would be extremly litigious to try and crush dissent and any media critics or scrutiny.Then read letter below threatening lega action to an investigative reporter!
I swear it was a prediction with no info beyond what the Church of Scientolgy does, general cult expertise, and previous links.
(((Kayla))) * settles in for the long haul to wade through mountain of data she posted*
to a reporter investigating wwasp facilities--I think have to go back and check

quote:

---

"I am sorry that it has taken so long to get back to you but I have been visiting facilities, checking on things and generally busy. I did enjoy having the telephone conversation with you the other day. However, by checking on things that you told me and have told other people I have determined that most of your information is NOT accurate, distorted, not up to date and slanted.(Morbo--note the very defensive, almost paranoid tone) This goes all the way from who owns what to the "nude" beach claim and all in between.

I would like to reemphasize the ownership of the facilities to avoid confusion. Cross Creek Manor, LLC by Jill Co Inc. and Recaf, Inc. Paradise Cove School LTD, by Brian Viafanua, Angie Viafanua, Tala Lee and Lafi Onesema with a sponsor of Island Tours and Expeditions. Tranquility Bay DBA by (sic) Caribbean Center (sic) for Change LTD who is Jay Kay. Spring Creek Lodge, By Jill Co., Inc., Recaf, Inc. and Dan Peart. Morava Academy; by A Czech Republic Corp. with Martin Pilk as President.

I do have some concern, as do the directors of the facilities as to your intentions. Is it to attain accurate information or to dwell half-truths, missinformation (sic) and rumors. It is felt that you need to be accountable to facts so that no harm or damage will occur that could result in legal action." signed fax to a reporte from wwasp exec director Farnsworth

---

quote:

---

I do have some concern, as do the directors of the facilities as to your intentions.

---

If the facilities in question are not owned or controlled by wwasp, how does he know what their concerns are? And why should he care??
This moron Farny gave up the ghost in one short fax!!!
He actually contradicts himself from one paragraph to the next!

Let this be a lesson, kids, never mess with a mathematician...you'll never see us coming !!
More litigation: denver newspaper link

quote:

---

Teen Help [intelocked with wwasp] has officially denied the allegations in court and has countersued Ceta Dochterman, the mother, charging her with breach of contract.

---

[ July 04, 2003, 06:00 PM: Message edited by: Morbo ]
 

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Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
 
Note that threatening legal action is dirt cheap and threatens and intimidates many into shutting up.
But not ol' Morbo

[Edit to respond to Ban below:
Yes, the MSNBC thing was extreme.
But it seems called for as you said. That child needed help, and other treatments were not workinhg. It was done at home with family and with what sounded like expert care. He's lucky his foster parents loved him or they could have given up.
Then he would have gone into "the System" and surely would have been doomed ]

[ July 03, 2003, 12:33 PM: Message edited by: Morbo ]
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
I don't have nearly as much of a problem with what went on in the MSNBC article as I do with the parents sending their kids off for unknown persons to indiscriminately beat up.

The program that these parents embarked on, they invested the time and training and TOOK RESPONSIBILITY for the outcome. They were still with the child every day. Yes the tactics were somewhat extreme but the case seemed far, far more extreme than the kind that most of the kids that are in the wwasp programs appear to be.

With Dane all discipline and restraint was administered by the parents. I tend to wonder why they didn't use what to me was apparent common sense and do this program on a milder level when they were having problems at the ages between 2 and 6 rather than the age of 12 though I understand the case was extreme. But in the end it was the parents,like I said,taking responsibility NOT institutionalizing him or shipping him off to Jamaica!

AJ
Edit to add: This is from Debbie's letter at http://www.msnbc.com/news/932103.asp
She clearly repudiates any progam like wwasp!

quote:

---

To those parents who are struggling, I want to say don’t ever give up! You are the key to helping your child. You will change as much or more than your special child. There are many questionable therapies, programs, or boot camps you could send your child to expecting someone else to “fix” your kid. Unfortunately, there are also many tragic stories as a result of some of the recent practices somehow called therapy. I encourage you to keep your child with you and commit to sticking together as a family.

---

quote:

---

"These people are basically a bunch of untrained people who work for this organization," Ken Kay told the Denver Rocky Mountain News in an interview before he rejoined Teen Help as a vice president. "So they don't have credentials of any kind. ...

"We could be leading these kids to long-term problems that we don't have a clue about because we're not going about it in the proper way. ...

"How in the hell can you call yourself a behavior modification program -- and that's one of the ways it's marketed -- when nobody has the expertise to determine: Is this good, is this bad?"
Ken Kay wwasp VP, presently President of WWASP!

---

I couln't have said it better myself..

quote:

---

Teen Liberty From Alexia Park's book An American Gulag, about her years long attempts to rescue her niece from 2 jail/schools: This book describes my entry into this secret underworld of child abuse. In my search for "Katie", I learned that she had been sent by her single-parent mother to a locked, rigorous, one year, behavior-modification program. It was run by a quasi-religious group. She would have virtually no communication with family members during that year. I also learned that the combination of physical constraints and limited access would set up a cult-like atmosphere in which "Katie" might be coerced into accepting extreme religious views which were not part of the family's value system.

---

quote:

---

Teen liberty In many ways, Friendship Glen operates like a cult that sucks you in,takes your money, screws you up, and brainwashes you into believing that it's good for you. My ex-husband certainly was brainwashed. He thought the
school was great and wanted to keep my daughter there until she was 18. I
wanted her out but didn't know what to do, since we have joint custody and
I could not afford a lawyer. I prayed and cried and raged about the situation
and then one day was led to my computer to research and investigate the
school. What I found was utterly shocking and disturbing. All of my worst
fears were confirmed.

---

quote:

---

Q: Are WWASPS Schools accredited?
A: We work closely with the Northwest Association of Schools and Colleges to insure that all academic requirements are being met for our High School Programs. For new schools, there may be a short period in the beginning that operate under an application for accreditation to prepare for a required initial site visit.
Q: Do you have certified teachers?
A: Yes, the teachers are certified by the state or country where the school is located.

---

When I first read the accreditation answer, I thought they said "yes, we are accredited, by NASC. So I checked NASC homepage, and discoverd that no, they are not. Then I reread the answer and tipped my hat to the cunning, evasive jerks. They imply that they have accreditation, but never come out and say they do .Sheeesh.
For the second answer, the original story on this thread says that none of they "teachers" need have any teaching training, much less any formal certifacation.
Parents are really being taken for a ride here, note that WWasp contracts forbid suing for false advertisments...a clause I'd never heard of before in a contract but I'm beginning to see why wwasp needs it...
Peace, Morbo

[ July 04, 2003, 12:29 AM: Message edited by: Morbo ]
 

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Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
 
Morbo, please use the quote box only for what is actually being quoted. Like this:

From wwasp FAQ web page:

quote:

---

Q: Are WWASPS Schools accredited?
A: We work closely with the Northwest Association of Schools and Colleges to insure that all academic requirements are being met for our High School Programs. For new schools, there may be a short period in the beginning that operate under an application for accreditation to prepare for a required initial site visit.
Q: Do you have certified teachers?
A: Yes, the teachers are certified by the state or country where the school is located.

---

The way you’ve been doing it, I keep thinking the source of the quote is part of the quote.
 

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Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
 
Makes sense. More readable that way.
I'll try to catch up on links.
The best quote so far is from the current WWASP President.He really slams into his own organization when he was on the outside briefly.
My guess would be he lost a power struggle temporarily and negative comments were a way to play hard-ball and regain control.
Thers are at least 5 interlocked groups:wwasp,Teen health,Teens-in-Crisis and 1 more. (Note the domain names to suck in parents.
This was very sickening:named after a troubled dead 16-year-old, the C.S. Landre foundation which claimed to be independant and non-profit but only recomended wwasp schools. So even if you die they can still use you in propaganda!
All of these organizations round-robin recomendations for each other, like a circle of back-slappers.

[ July 04, 2003, 12:31 AM: Message edited by: Morbo ]
 

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Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
 
http://mountainparkhorrors.netfirms.com/Bethal.htm
A Missisippi jail/school weird brouhaha when court order to cease-and desist is served by 30+ cops...from Supreme Court of Missisipi which denied the appeal of a school employee...more readable than most court documents, it tells a good story.

Then, a kid that was in WWASP Samoan camp and others refused to give in ... but it cost him.

quote:

---

Paul Richards, Teen Help/WWASP victim shortly before he got out: They attempted to break me," Paul said. "So that I would realize how important my parents were to me."

He said the facilitators tried to make him read motivational books they thought he would hate.

"So I would write book reports using words they could not understand. They became very annoyed. ... They attempted to put me on what they nicknamed 'poltergeist.' And I sat on a chair and stared at a wall, a TV, a microwave, with approximately a foot between the chair and the wall, all day long, for days on end. I was below Level 1. I was on Level Zero, probation, as they put it.

---

They never broke this very cool kid, and he left on his 18th birthday after two years in programs... I salute him!
But his parents won't take him back home or help with college unless he goes back in...
He lives with neighbors that were apalled to see him rousted out of his home at 3AM by 3 big dudes.
Paul Richards story from denver.rockymountainnews.com, which has done extensive research and stories.

[ July 04, 2003, 12:31 AM: Message edited by: Morbo ]
 

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Posted by sndrake (Member # 4941) on :
 
I'm amazed by the shock this story has elicited. Those of us familiar with disability issues have known for a long time that human rights are regularly stomped on by parents and professionals using some form of abuse and calling it treatment.

One of the most notorious institutions in the U.S. operates facilities in Massachussetts and Rhode Island. "Students" there not only are subjected to spanks, pepper sprays, and electric shocks - they're put on "specialized food plans" - in which every bite of food they get is contingent on performing a desired behavior. The plan allows for "students" to be fed as little as 300 calories per day. The ACLU doesn't care. Amnesty International doesn't care. It's just disabled kids getting treatment and they don't want to get involved with that.

Here's a link to a particularly disturbing death that occurred under the auspices of this organization: The Death of Linda Cornelison.

I've pretty much lost my capacity for shock. But my capacity for anger and outrage, I'm proud to report, still seem to be intact.
 

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Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
 
Holy Mother of God, that poor girl was starved and tortured to death in a care facility...

Same link as above, testimony at an open hearing in the Massachusett State House

quote:

---

BRI Director Matthew Israel, PhD, defended his program by citing the Autism Society of America (ASA) position statement ...[and] insisted that aversives constitute effective "therapy." However, he was forced to admit that 5,300 electroshocks in one day did not work for one BRI client.

---

This chucklehead admits this under oath and he's still in charge of anything?

Well sndrake, it appears every time a rock is turned over more slugs come out. I feel sick.

[ July 03, 2003, 05:58 PM: Message edited by: Morbo ]
 

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Posted by Ethics Gradient (Member # 878) on :
 
Bah. This makes me immensely angry. I just wanted to state my support for those who feel that something needs to be done. And to the individual - yep, that's you, filetted - moaning about people actually caring (rather than just making snide, rude and incoherent remarks) about what happens in the world, and especially to children... Well, yeah. Please stop feeling that your primary role is to put down and ridicule and attention-grab. If you have a complaint, please try and put it in something reasonably a coherent form.

Rakeesh, I agree with everything you've said.
 

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Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
 
EG to be fair, flish was mainly talking about the extreme , violent rhetoric flying about (including from yours truly), not that people cared or not.

Any thoughts on legal tactics to go after these groups?
(i mean any tactic that's not illegal)

[ July 03, 2003, 10:45 PM: Message edited by: Morbo ]
 

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Posted by Ethics Gradient (Member # 878) on :
 
Actually, I disagree. I think filetted was in fact implicitly attacking people's feelings on the matter.

It was blatantly obvious that the rhetoric was largely hyperbole. If he can't see straight away then he needs to take a breath or two before hitting "Post Reply", madly typing a third of a sentence and then clicking "Submit".

That's all I have to say on the matter.
 

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Posted by filetted (Member # 5048) on :
 
Rakeesh,

I split up my posts because I realized I was trying (and likely failing) to ask a coherent question about the nature of people's reactions rather than the topic itself.

"on an internet forum". This was vague, yes. I was thinking that given that one link and the fictional nature of most posters names, that the idea of getting so frothed up seems ludicrous. Yes, maybe I should have interpretted this as hyperbole. But given the length of the thread and the non-game aspect, that's a hard conclusion for me to reach.

None of my posts have anything to do with the way I feel about what might be going on in tranquility bay. I was trying to make a point about collective self-reflection. i.e. "hey folks, we're all getting ourselves worked up into a hysterical state. that should send up warning flags. how about we all calm down and make sure we know what we're talking about?"

I don't understand your post about being critical and offensive. I may have been, inadvertantly. I apologize for whatever personal criticisms you read.

flish

PS. If the article and phenomenon is true, it's sickening. More so if this american is involved as that suggests someone using his inflated influence to create his own self-indulgent twisted shop of horrors.
 

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Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
 

quote:

---

"hey folks, we're all getting ourselves worked up into a hysterical state. that should send up warning flags

---

Yes. I went ballistic immeaditely and obsessed about it.
I had to back off, calm down, and regain perspective.
 

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Posted by filetted (Member # 5048) on :
 
Not related to this story, I've had some personal experience with going ballistic on newspaper reportings that turned out to be 100% fictional fabrications by would-be journalists... to which
older wiser members of my social circle responded
to my fury with "Wait? so what you're telling me is
that you can't believe everything you read?" *mentor turns back to his work at hand*
 

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Posted by filetted (Member # 5048) on :
 
Morb,

Can you give me a rundown of the veracity of that article?

flish
 

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Posted by filetted (Member # 5048) on :
 
EG,

What the heck? I think I explained repeatedly that I was trying to ask a question about the nature of the reactions, not the topic itself.

flish
 

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Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
 
flish, how do you run down veracity?

It was published in the Boston Globe? Does that work for you?
 

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Posted by filetted (Member # 5048) on :
 
kayla,

I was not challenging the veracity, I was asking for a rundown of what Morbo had looked into.

flish
 

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Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
 
So, you just wanted the Cliff Notes of sndrakes link?
 

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Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
 
A similar article about the sister school in Costa Rica was in either Time or Newsweek last month. (Sorry I don't remember which one. I read it at the doctor's office.) Does that add credibility?
 

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Posted by filetted (Member # 5048) on :
 
I was asking for a coherent explanation without icons, changing fonts, and discussions of infiltration and scientology.

flish
 

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Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
 
They're scum.
Happy?
 

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Posted by WheatPuppet (Member # 5142) on :
 

quote:

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I'm the only one on this thread who has said anything about nuclear weapons.

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And I about broadswords. Mmm broadswords.

If anyone is willing to get serious about terrorizing these people (in a legal, nonviolent way), I'm in full support. If I were going to Jamaica this christmas, I would drop leaflets into the camp, despite its questionable legality.
 

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Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
 
Teen Liberty Alexia Park's Anerican Gulag.
This woman spent years trying to rescue a niece from two different behav mod schools. And the book looks well-researched and comprehensive.
I'm going to read it and go from there.A little 1st hand experience data is needed...

[ July 04, 2003, 12:41 AM: Message edited by: Morbo ]
 

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Posted by filetted (Member # 5048) on :
 
I guess it was a stupid question.
 

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Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
 
Naw, maybe I was inchoherent. I was mad.
But I made good points anyway.
The cult thing is repeated in many sources...I didn't know this until after I thought it was cult, so..very happy with my understanding but sickened.

[ July 04, 2003, 10:22 AM: Message edited by: Morbo ]
 

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Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
 
I like the leaflet idea, but those can easily be confiscated. Better to use amplifers and shout messages into the camp if possible. The staff can't stop the students from listening or punish them. By the way, what message would you want to send to them? "We are going to get you out"? "Don't give in"? "What they are doing to you is wrong"? "Rise up and throw off your oppressors"? What about offering practical assistance to the eighteen-year-olds who stay because they need their parents' support?
 

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Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
 
It was pretty dang clear, filetted, that you were insulting people. You used words like "frothing", "bandwagon", "sickening", "stupid", "hysterical", and implied that everyone who was very, very angry was being irrational and stupid, numerous times.

If you weren't trying to insult and criticize, then you sure made the same mistake on repeated posts.

That said, Hatrack isn't populated by gullible people. Just because you have been snookered by false articles and such in the past does not mean that we are making the same mistake.

And in fact we're not.

Had you concerned yourself with doing more research into the reactions, you would've discovered that we had independant corroboration already. We could discover the article was true or at least largely true almost immediately-there are even people who knew about the existence of such camps and worse before the thread was even started.

Next time you try to teach a lesson, make sure the class hasn't already learned it, m'kay?
 

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Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
 
Oh, and one other thing: Do your own damned homework, filetted.
 

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Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
 
flish, I edited out the worst of my b][ stuff to make my posts more readable and "punch up" the key points, as you so kindly suggested. And some of my graemlins. I kept most of the sad or angry ones though.

One weakness to the leaflet idea is it's littering.
I like the idea of a biplane buzzing merrily around with a banner attached. Legal if you don't violate local (Jamaican) flying laws.

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What about offering practical assistance to the eighteen-year-olds who stay because they need their parents' support?

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Tough question that I don't have an answer for. There's no denying that lots of these kids need lots of help. But what they need more than anything is their parents love (discussed endlessly on parenting threads.)
Jail/schools with no teachers run by ex-pump jockies are bound to do more harm than good, I bet even most parents with kids there would understand that if they weren't being manipulated and taken to the cleaners by these base-born, soulless monsters
Peace, Morbo

[ July 04, 2003, 06:12 PM: Message edited by: Morbo ]
 

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Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
 
You know, I’m started to think fileted may have had a good point.

Morbo. You keep saying you’re serious about this. I don’t know if you are, or if you’re just blowing off steam. But if you are serious, you need to stop and think about what you’re actually trying to accomplish. Are you just trying to do something dramatic to make yourself feel good, or do you really want to do something useful? Because the useful stuff is usually not very dramatic. Contact one of the survivors groups like the one Tom linked to on the first page and ask them what you should do.
 

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Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
 
Of course I am blowing off steam

[ July 04, 2003, 06:19 PM: Message edited by: Morbo ]
 

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Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
 

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All that is required for evil to triumph is that good men do nothing

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this thread is starting to read like a planning session for a really bad RPG campaign. And ultimately, we are talking about real people’s real lives. dkw

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Child abuse and neglect is, at a minimum:

Any recent act or failure to act on the part of a parent or caretaker which results in death, serious physical or emotional harm, sexual abuse or exploitation; or
An act or failure to act which presents an imminent risk of serious harm.

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Emotional Abuse (psychological/verbal abuse/mental injury) includes acts or omissions by the parents or other caregivers that have caused, or could cause, serious behavioral, cognitive, emotional, or mental disorders. In some cases of emotional abuse, the acts of parents or other caregivers alone, without any harm evident in the child's behavior or condition, are sufficient to warrant child protective services (CPS) intervention. For example, the parents/caregivers may use extreme or bizarre forms of punishment, such as confinement of a child in a dark closet . Less severe acts, such as habitual scapegoating, belittling, or rejecting treatment, are often difficult to prove and, therefore, CPS may not be able to intervene without evidence of harm to the child.

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A Hatracker goes on vacation to Jamaica and somehow manages to dump propaganda flyers into the camp. What has been accomplished? Probably nothing but angering the staff, making life worse for the residents. dkw

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True.
It might make the activist happy, but accomplish little else.
The ISAC(link here soon ) group e-mailed me July 4 and said they'd be happy to have me as volunteer, so that's where I'm going to focus my efforts.
:sigh:
And you made good points as well, taKid.
 

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Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
 
dkw, sorry if I irritated you yesterday,
I was quite angry and defensive.
When I thought back, I saw you made some good points that I take to heart.
Morbo

[ July 05, 2003, 02:32 PM: Message edited by: Morbo ]
 

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Posted by Adi Gallia (Member # 3561) on :
 
I've also looked for more info on this topic, and found almost nothing.

This should be headline news. Instead, it is last page, one paragraph in the single article that apeared in N.Y. Times, 3 months ago. Some newspapers have never heard of this place. If we could, through letters, email, excetera, stirr up public interest in this horror, I'm sure there would be sufficent outcry, villegenti justice, and parent pressure to significantly damper the sucess of their "reducation" programs.
 

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Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
 
International Survivors Action Committee (ISAC)
I've volunteered here, and I blame Hatrack!
I used to be a card-carrying curmudgeon , and now look at me:
Also, a sociology forum's take on the Tranquillity Bay jail/school: http://www.sociopranos.com/forums/printer-friendly.asp?threadid=65#top
 

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Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
 


If I was American I'd definitely be writing my Congressman. Or something. I dunno. I agree, it's unbelievable that this gets no media attention.
 

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