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I could have sworn there was a Toy Story 3 thread but now I can't find it. This thread is for people who have already seen it. If you have not, go see it, then get back here. Preferably in a theater, because I think there's at least one scene (most of you should already know what I'm talking about) that really benefits from a huge screen with no distractions.
I just watched it for a second time, this time with my Mom. I was expecting the movie in general to be less emotionally intense the second time through, since I already knew what was coming. For the most part I found the opposite: scenes that I knew were coming later in the movie lent a lot of gravity to earlier scenes.
Also, though I hadn't thought about it until afterwards, this is a particularly poignant movie for young college age guys to watch with their mothers. A thought also occurred to me: it's been mentioned that Toy Story is a series that has grown up with its audience. The 7 year old kids from 15 years ago are now young adults who can appreciate more action and intense scenes. I had already read and thought about that. What I had totally forgotten about is the other half of the audience: the parents of those 7 year old kids, who now are watching them go off to (or return from) college. So the whole "Andy's going to college" storyline felt a lot more important to me this time around.
Also, right afterwards we went to donate some stuff to the Salvation Army. The stuff in question wasn't toys, but it added a bit of weight to the whole experience.
I still cried through the incinerator scene, but I think a lot of it was out of reflex from the first time. Last time I thought it went on for like 5 minutes, and I was on the edge of my seat the entire time. This time the lights turned on and the claw came down right when I was barely starting to feel the moment, and I felt annoyed that the scene wasn't even MORE intense. I wanted another 30 seconds of them staring into the inferno, with shots of the objects in front of them beginning to melt, just in case there was anyone in the audience who wasn't feeling at least a part of themselves that honestly believed they were all going to die.
It was sort of interesting, though that it went by so fast the second time. The first time through, I was experiencing the moment as if I was right there with Woody et al, and the fact that I literally felt time dilation as I stared death in the face is testament to how great the scene was in the first place.
There's actually a lot of stuff that I'm unsure what to think about, (related to, among other things, the section of OSC's review where he mentions the "happy slavery" thing), but I think I've gone on long enough for now.
Anyone else have more thoughts having either seen it twice or had more time to think about it?
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The incinerator scene was the most important 75 seconds to me, but single most important 2 seconds is when the girl waves Woody's hand at Andy, and Andy breathes sharply.
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quote:Originally posted by Raymond Arnold: The incinerator scene was the most important 75 seconds to me, but single most important 2 seconds is when the girl waves Woody's hand at Andy, and Andy breathes sharply.
The incinerator scene was indeed something else.
As for the second scene, I include the part where Andy says, "Goodbye guys." right before he starts to drive off and sees Woody waving to him.
There were one or two scenes especially towards the end of the movie where I almost knew the toys were going to reveal in some small way they were alive. Something like a wink. But now that I think about it that relationship is special specifically because though the toys are alive, they allow us to live through them with our imaginations. It's what makes them different from our human friends. We can't know they are alive, and obviously we know they can't be alive, but always behind that knowledge is a tiny hope that we are wrong.
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I saw it with my sister, and then with my mom, independently. (Still trying to get my dad to go. In other news, hey Dad. 'sup. I assume by the time you're reading this thread that you've actually seen it. If not, for shame).
My sister and I were literally holding hands (at first) and then outright hugging each other in terror during the incinerator scene.
My mom sobbed pretty much the whole way through the movie, and I was holding her hand like the entire time.
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The "happy slavery" thing is interesting, because in a lot of ways the movie can almost function as religious metaphor. It's a slightly muddled metaphor in places, since it's also reaching out to parent/child relationships and the like, but the combination winds up being very interesting; the film, by mixing those metaphors, winds up in an intriguing place.
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quote:The "happy slavery" thing is interesting, because in a lot of ways the movie can almost function as religious metaphor. It's a slightly muddled metaphor in places, since it's also reaching out to parent/child relationships and the like, but the combination winds up being very interesting; the film, by mixing those metaphors, winds up in an intriguing place.
Heh, sure, if you come at it with that intent, the film can certainly function as a religious metaphor. You've gotta want it, though.
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I think the film was absolutely intended to be viewed as a religious (in particular, afterlife) metaphor. The whole thing, from beginning to end, is about contemplating your mortality. I actually see it as a companion to "Up," where inside of learning to deal the loss of loved ones you are learning to accept your own fate. In the beginning they talk about the others they have lost, and how they've come to the end of their journey as Andy's toys. Woody is promising everyone a reasonable but not particularly exciting afterlife in the attic. Then you have Sunnyside, which starts out as a literally perfect eternal afterlife where no one ever has to be sad. Then becomes a living hell. The climax of the movie is when Woody et al stare into the face of absolute annihilation and grimly accept their fate. In the end, they get reincarnated of sorts.
None of this is a particularly consistent afterlife metaphor, but it's all exploring the same subject matter. "I've finished with one life, what now?" is the question being asked, very purposefully.
By contrast, The Happy Slavery thing I think was not remotely intended (insofar as nobody said "Hey, let's make a movie about toys in which the toys represent Happy Slaves!"). But I do think by the time they got to the third movie, the undertones had become very strong (merely as an unintended consequence of the premise). If they wanted to make a movie as deep as they were trying to do, it was harder to avoid the issues they had mostly ignored in the first two movies.
You have millions of sentient toys that are created with an inherent drive to be loved by their owner, AND who experience pain and loss just as a human would. If you’re lucky you get a good owner like Andy, and even then your friends and family can get sold off or thrown away, and you eventually get put in a box for 10 years while he goes off and plays videogames.
If you get a bad owner (like Sid), you’re pretty much screwed. This doesn’t require me to read into anything. This is blatantly spelled out in the movies.
The intent wasn't to make the moral of the story that the toys are brainwashed happy slaves. (Or brainwashed happy worshippers, as Lotso's "Where's your Kid now!?" line touches upon). The toy/child relationship is mostly compared to a normal relationship between family or friends. Except that one partner in the relationship has complete and utter power over the other partner(s), and treats them like property.
Sticking to the family metaphor, you can be born into an abusive family (Sid) which can feel just as inescapable as human slavery. You can have an owner that appears good but nonetheless takes advantage of you like a religious cult. Like Tom said, it's a lot of mixed metaphors and it's the collection of them together that makes the movie amazingly thought provoking. And while some of those metaphors may not have been intended from the beginning, I'm pretty sure that Pixar is at least aware of how they could be read into by the time they were finished.
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I saw Toy Story 3 with my 2-year-old boy. It was the first movie he's ever seen in the theater. We have the first two movies on a constant loop at home, and he loves Buzz and Woody. I don't think he could have sat still (or as still as he did) if it was anything else.
Of course I loved this movie. Pixar has yet to totally let me down, and this was good even by their standards. Maybe the best of the series, but I'll have to wait until I've seen the DVD 100 times or so to say for sure.
I love all the parts that have been mentioned. But there was one line I almost missed that I found fairly profound in the context of the series. It was the part when the toys are about to be dropped off at the day care center, and Buzz says something to the effect of, "Careful, these toys may not take kindly to newcomers."
It was a funny line, but every time I've seen the first film since then I haven't been able to get it out of my mind. The first time I saw Toy Story, I viewed Woody as the put-upon protagonist whose life was unfairly disrupted by the cocky, overconfident interloper. Until I heard that line, I never fully realized just how nasty Woody was to Buzz when he showed up. Even after all these years, when Buzz seems to have fully come to terms with being a toy, he's still a little traumatized by how Woody treated him.
It was the only crack I've seen in his heroic demeanor, but it gives me a lot more empathy for his character. And a lot more respect for how brave he was in the first movie, and how generous he is for forgiving Woody for all the abuse. It doesn't make me like Woody any less, but I makes me like Buzz a whole lot more.
Maybe I'm just reading too much into it, but it's those little details that make Pixar movies really special. It's nice to know that after 15 years and billions of dollars, they still haven't forgotten the difference between a good movie and a great one.
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I've already contributed / seen contributed all of the important stuff about this movie that I could say. Great movie! Here's the a/v review for posterity.
quote:Deep into Toy Story 3, there’s a moment where some of the toy protagonists realize that in spite of all their cleverness and determination, there’s no way out of the fatal trap into which they’ve fallen. In any other children’s film, this would be a time for comedic panic, long-withheld personal confessions, or dramatic statements that would immediately turn out to be ironic. In any other children’s film, the moment would quickly peak and pass. But Toy Story 3 director Lee Unkrich (Finding Nemo, Monsters Inc.) holds for long, excruciating moments on the silent characters, as they pass from disbelief into sorrowful resolve, then take each others’ hands and wait. And wait. And wait. It’s a shockingly grim sequence, but this is what Pixar films do best: find a place of deep emotion and explore it without blunting it, overexplaining it, or passing it off with a laugh. Toy Story 3 never gets darker than this moment, but time and again, it similarly finds real, resonant emotion in the antics of a bunch of children’s toys having adventures when nobody’s looking. That emotion starts with the toys’ pathetic desperation as their owner, now 17 and headed to college, fails to play with them, no matter what ruse they try. While loyalist cowboy Woody (Tom Hanks) insists they should stand by the boy even if he wants them all in a trash bag in the attic, his blinkered devotion is more creepy than sweet. But the film never plays this for humor, either; his dedication is as real and important to him as his friends’ burning desire to move on, find new kids, and get played with again. Which sets up a lot of conflict and frantic hijinks involving a day-care center, separations and reunions, and action that playfully evokes films from The Great Escape to Cool Hand Luke. TS3 doesn’t entirely dodge some of the current kid-movie standards; Unkrich brings in an astonishing crowd of celebrities to voice even the most minor characters, and lets a pop song express the comedy of one moment. But the film never lets banter, visual gags, or the usual manic kid-flick running about interfere with its more delicately handled thoughts on loyalty, longing, broken relationships, and generational continuity. It honestly earns its emotion, moment by painstakingly executed moment.
quote:Originally posted by Speed: The first time I saw Toy Story, I viewed Woody as the put-upon protagonist whose life was unfairly disrupted by the cocky, overconfident interloper. Until I heard that line, I never fully realized just how nasty Woody was to Buzz when he showed up.
The first "Toy Story" came out when I was ten years old. I remember enjoying it for the most part but I also remember how much Woody upset me. Woody was selfish and malacious and he actually creeped me out more than Sid.
Buzz, while annoying, was like a naive little child and the way Woody went after him was very disturbing to me.
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When I was young, I thought of the first Toy Story as a metaphor for sibling-hood. Woody is used to undivided affection and attention, and has to grow used to sharing it with a new arrival. He initially begrudges the new guy, who himself is naive and clueless and could benefit from brotherly teaching. As they share experiences, however, they grow more attached as the new one starts to mature. And at the same time, the old guy matures in a different way, coming to realize that he is still loved and that it is his duty to love the new one as well.
Of course, this interpretation was tinted by the fact that I had a baby brother at the time I first started watching Toy Story. Because of this interpretation, I identified with Woody a lot, even though I knew his initial attitude towards Buzz was unfair and even harsh. But having lived a story where I shared the kind of growth with my brother that I saw between Woody and Buzz, I sympathized with Woody.
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I really enjoyed the movie. And yes, I got choked up at the end, too. But I have to ask: does someone at Pixar find folksy old people inherently untrustworthy?
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The incenerator scene was genuinely suspenseful, even though I'd read the spoilers ahead of time so I knew exactly what was going to happen.
For the last scene, though, that everyone is crying about? That did NOT make me cry. It means growing up and putting away childish things. That's really okay. Peter Pan is a tragedy. It is much, much sadder to NOT grow than to do so. More specifically, someone must have never experienced ACTUAL tragedy to think that growing up counts as one.
I found the scene touching, because Andy was kind and that is good, but not at all sad.
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It's sad because it's Andy saying goodbye. If my friend moves away for a great job, I'd be happy for her but I'd still cry when she left. Especially if we started talking about all the traits we admired in each other. It's happy tears!
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Wow, torn in two different directions here.
First, did anyone here remotely imply that they cried because the scene was sad? There's more than one reason to cry, you know. Approximately 75% of the reason I was crying at the time was because it was a beautiful moment in which the toys were getting a final happy memory with Andy, Andy was getting a final happy memory with them, their relationship was ending on a perfect high note, and both of them were transitioning into new, good, well adjusted lives.
The other 25% of the reason I was crying was that, yes, the scene WAS sad. That doesn't mean "tragic". That doesn't mean that growing up is more sad than having your leg cut off or family members dying prematurely or whatever. But sadness isn't measured on some absolute scale, where you're not allowed to feel it unless it passes some arbitrary "grand scheme of things" threshold.
It's sad for Andy because he IS saying goodbye to things that have been with him since childhood, in a pretty permanent way. There's nothing wrong with keeping your toys, not because you still play with them on a regular basis engaging in the kinds of imaginative play that are important to a child's cognitive development, but because they represent memories. Keeping an old toy is like keeping an old photograph. It reminds you of where you've been and how you got to where you are. Originally Andy was going to put most of his toys in the attic, and bring Woody with him as a reminder of his childhood. That's a perfectly healthy thing to do. And then instead he found himself giving his favorite childhood memory away to someone he barely knows. Yes, that's a big deal.
Second, while I agree with you about Peter Pan and the sadness of not growing up, I DO think it is genuinely sad that we assume growing up means you have shed ALL of your childhood. If growing up means it would be beneath my dignity to climb a tree... well, yeah I'll grow up anyway because I have to and I get to continue to grow in new interesting ways, but there's nothing wrong with being a grownup and still appreciating your inner child from time to time. Andy just gave up one aspect of his inner child completely.
Finally, most importantly... Andy is not the main character. The toys are. And while Andy, in a literal sense, is merely giving away some plastic toys, the toys are losing a person who is very real, who they had a relationship with for 15 years, who had basically ignored them for 5+ years, gave them one final good memory, and now is disappearing forever. If you didn't see your best friend for 5 years, then they showed up to hang out for one day, then left forever... that's not sad?
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To this level? To account for all the sobbing I've read about in reviews? People talking about the scene like it was comparable to Sophie's Choice? No, it's not that sad.
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You're still missing the main point (which I didn't spend much time on because it wasn't that complicated), which is that it's not that sad. We aren't crying because we're sad. We're crying because not only is it a beautiful scene, but it's a beautiful scene that came after a scene that WAS very sad and traumatic (especially if you haven't read the spoilers... I know a lot of people who genuinely believed the movie was going to end right there in the incinerator). It's the entire emotional arc of the movie that makes the final scene a perfect, beautiful ending.
Your mileage will still vary, of course. I don't care whether you personally were moved (one way or another) to the point of tears. But I do think you're missing the point of the scene. Or at least the point people are making when they discuss the scene. And I always get a bit miffed when people dismiss childhood as something everyone should outgrow and discard completely.
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You know, it is possible to present your point of view without insulting the person you are talking to.
Since you decided to insult me and pretend that the reason we disagree is because a failing of mine rather than present your side or address my arguments, I'm through talking to you.
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My first pass through the draft came across very insulting and I actually rewrote it a lot to done it down. At the time I was feeling insulted myself, though, and I looking back at it I agree that I still got more indignant and confrontational than I needed too. I apologize for that.
However, I do think you would benefit from taking a look at your posts and thinking about how what you said may have come across as insulting as well. It felt to me (whether you intended it or not) like you were calling us a bunch of crybabies who have never experienced real pain.
Edit: I really would like to open up a dialogue in which I can learn how to improve my posting habits, as well as point out things you have done that have been frustrating to me without you writing me off as a guy who isn't worth talking to. I've seen several people attempt to do this with you and you haven't seemed interested. I still feel that it is worth attempting but I really don't know how.
[ July 12, 2010, 01:47 PM: Message edited by: Raymond Arnold ]
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quote:For the last scene, though, that everyone is crying about? That did NOT make me cry. It means growing up and putting away childish things.
From Andy's POV, he's growing up and putting away childish things. From the toys' POV, they are giving away their child.
As a parent, I found that scene immensely moving -- because while you of course want your child to grow up and attain independence, it's still a horrible (if also beautiful) thought.
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That sort of situation is, according to the commentaries I've listened to, one of the themes the creators were going for.
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In fact, that scene is about envisioning what Andy will be like as a parent, which is something that moves almost all parents I know to tears.
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quote:Originally posted by Raymond Arnold: My first pass through the draft came across very insulting and I actually rewrote it a lot to done it down. At the time I was feeling insulted myself, though, and I looking back at it I agree that I still got more indignant and confrontational than I needed too. I apologize for that.
However, I do think you would benefit from taking a look at your posts and thinking about how what you said may have come across as insulting as well. It felt to me (whether you intended it or not) like you were calling us a bunch of crybabies who have never experienced real pain.
Edit: I really would like to open up a dialogue in which I can learn how to improve my posting habits, as well as point out things you have done that have been frustrating to me without you writing me off as a guy who isn't worth talking to. I've seen several people attempt to do this with you and you haven't seemed interested. I still feel that it is worth attempting but I really don't know how.
You may be a better person than I. I found it incredibly thoughtless at best. I certainly don't feel that you're the one who should be apologizing.
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quote:Originally posted by katharina: To this level? To account for all the sobbing I've read about in reviews? People talking about the scene like it was comparable to Sophie's Choice? No, it's not that sad.
To be honest, I didn't cry at all when I saw Sophie's Choice. But admittedly, I was around 13 at the time, so perhaps I'd appreciate it more as an adult.
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I cried,not because it was sad, but because it was so sweet. Pixar/Miyazaki sweet scenes get me all the time. More than the sad parts. Like that scene with Wall e and Eva, or the end of Spirited Away.And most of UP, especially the prologue. AUGH! It's sweet because he was being so kind to that little girl. The toys knew how much he cared about them and what they meant to him as well. Especially Woody, and they needed that.
i don't think I want to totally put away childish things. That movie made me wish I had my old toys. It's sad not to have them anymore and not to be able to show them to future kids even if they are raggedy and worn out.
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Have you seen UP? Just the first few MINUTES of that movie make me cry. It's dead embarrassing. I can't help it. I see it and TEARS.
Now the movie Bridge of Terabithia, I cried over that because it was utterly, utterly sad. I was BAWLING over that movie. And also while reading Harry Potter Six. And Elfquest, various parts of Elfquest. I am such A GIRL.
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I was joking about the fact that you started by saying "these are scenes that make me cry because they are sweet" (instead of sad). But I think the intro to UP falls squarely under the category of "actually sad."
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Agreed. The prologue of Up is definitely "actually sad". In fact, it is a bit BECAUSE of the prologue of Up that the snifflings about Toy Story 3 feel off and weird. They are not remotely on the same level, so the many reviews I've read of "Toy Story continues Pixar's sobbing fest!" feel over the top.
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It was sad AND sweet at the same time. The love the characters had for each other from the beginning. *Sigh* A bit of both.
It doesn't seem off to me to cry over TS3. Especially since I didn't cry over the first and second ones, but again, it was just so... sweet.I reckon it's just folks feelings. Plus it is the last movie of the series too, so that can produce some tears.
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I disagree. I strongly suspect that parents and college-age children will find Toy Story 3 much more moving, and people who have recently experienced a loss in their family will be more affected by UP.Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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I don't even have kids yet, and it's been years since I've had loss in my family and both movies make the tears leak out.
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I found UP moving at the time. I found it a lot more moving a year later after my grandmother died and we went through a several month process of cleaning her house, knowing that when we were done we'd be selling it.
I found Toy Story equally moving, but yes, I'm in the college-age bracket where I identify strongly with Andy, and when I watched it with my mother it was even more intense.
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Well, Syne, all it takes is a strong breeze and the smell of peppermint to make you briefly ponder the tragedy of the human condition, so.... Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:I was crying at the time was because it was a beautiful moment in which the toys were getting a final happy memory with Andy, Andy was getting a final happy memory with them, their relationship was ending on a perfect high note, and both of them were transitioning into new, good, well adjusted lives.
Perfectly said Raymond Arnold. My tears were of the happy, moved variety.
In Up, the opening prologue didn't bring tears to my eyes, but the scene where the old man looks through the photo book sure did. Crying doesn't have to be about sadness.
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quote:Agreed. The prologue of Up is definitely "actually sad". In fact, it is a bit BECAUSE of the prologue of Up that the snifflings about Toy Story 3 feel off and weird. They are not remotely on the same level, so the many reviews I've read of "Toy Story continues Pixar's sobbing fest!" feel over the top.
I wasn't aware that all tears were alike.
Put another way, 'continues the sobbing fest' hardly equals 'continues the sobbing fest in to the same degree and with the same emotions as other Pixar films'. Or, y'know, what several folks just said:)
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quote:Originally posted by katharina: To this level? To account for all the sobbing I've read about in reviews? People talking about the scene like it was comparable to Sophie's Choice? No, it's not that sad.
Comparing Toy Story 3 to Sophie's Choice only makes me feel better about crying in Toy Story 3. The finale to Toy Story 3 was an honest moment exploring relationships between characters that audiences felt invested in. It was a well-executed payoff to a beautiful story, and it managed to connect to the emotional center of experiences that many people can relate to. Sophie's Choice, on the other hand, was contrived, gimmicky and manipulative--the definitive example of callously-crafted Oscar-bait.
Was Sophie's Choice sadder? Perhaps. But, as many people here seem to understand, sad isn't the only reason to cry.
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I'm curious about your motivation behind this argument. Are you trying to convince people that they didn't cry at the end of the movie? Or just that they were wrong for having cried?
On a tangent, it's not as though Toy Story 3 was devoid of genuinely sad moments. The part where Woody heard Andy's voice coming through the earpiece and held the phone closer still chokes me up to think about. Pixar really does have a gift for embellishing their films with the most beautiful little details.
I think that's why their climaxes work so well. Payoffs like the last few scenes of Toy Story 3 wouldn't have seemed half as thrilling or moving if it weren't for the extraordinary care they took in the buildup.
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One other thing I loved about Toy Story 3 is that it's one of the only sequels I can think of that felt like it really has a reason for being. I loved Toy Story 2, but I always felt a little uncomfortable about how it ended. There were some very tricky questions raised, and the conclusion seemed a little too pat to resolve them. I always left that movie with the nagging suspicion that, as happy as the were to be back in Andy's house together, there was a good chance that Woody would eventually realize that Stinky Pete was right.
Not only was the last scene of the third film a fitting finale for the movie it was in, it finally settled the questions raised by #2. Although Andy did finally grow out of his need for toys, he still cared about them enough to justify Woody's decision to return, at least through one more generation.
I just saw Toy Story 2 again, and its ending seems a little more satisfying after seeing #3, which is a rare accomplishment for a sequel.
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I am observing that people seem to be doing a lot of crying for something that was sweet and well-done, but not exactly sob-inducing.
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You seem to be the only person on this thread, or that I've heard of, that didn't cry at the end of that movie. As such, you might want to revisit your definition of "sob-inducing." Posts: 2804 | Registered: May 2003
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Well, yeah, it can't be helped, it's just people's feelings. I didn't WANT to cry. In fact I was trying NOT to to the point of getting a headache, but pesky Pixar isn't satisfied unless you're weeping your eyes out. Not so much over Incredibles, but there was that scene in Cars that made me cry because for some reason I get weepy sometimes when folks are nice to each other even if it's cars. Haibane Renmei is a sob fest for this reason. I got all cry-y because one character made another character lunch, for the love of MILK!
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quote:Originally posted by katharina: I am observing that people seem to be doing a lot of crying for something that was sweet and well-done, but not exactly sob-inducing.
I personally got really choked up at the part where, after Andy gives away all of his other toys, Bonny sees Woody and goes, "hey, my cowboy doll!" and reaches for him. Andy, who from the beginning was planning to bring Woody to college, pulls back and won't give it to her.
That moment was really very wrenching, because you just didn't know who to root for. Neither character was "wrong", and going either way would have still led to a fulfilling end to the story (such as Andy alternately keeping Woody and always having a reminder of his childhood as he grows up and raises his own family). All of the possibilities flash by in that split second of indecision. There is an incredible build-up of tension that is only ultimately resolved when Andy finally decides to give up Woody.
It is the very definition of a catharsis.
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I don't actually consider the population of this thread to be a representative sample of anything.
I'm not criticizing people for crying. I'm mostly mystified and...I don't know, a bit skeptical. Really? It was sweet and poignant and I saw all the earlier movies, too, but...that much?
Maybe it's because Andy, while a perfectly nice kid, is always separate from the toys, so you don't form any particular attachment to him. It's like someone telling me about their cat. I completely believe them when they love their cat, but that doesn't mean I love their cat. And nobody even died - the cat was placed with another family and could be visited at any time. Andy's college is within driving distance and the little girl is a family friend. It is, like I said, sweet and poignant, but not devestating.
I get that it is a moment about growing up, but that circles back to my original thought: growing up isn't sad.
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