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I just bought a whole bunch of snapon tools and a snapon box, but I really want a matco box, but I can't afford it yet. does anybody know if it's worth it for a 53" box that's $4,000? I paid 1,300 for my snapon one.
Posts: 4229 | Registered: Dec 2002
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I love my tools, but I'm not super crazy about the box. But I did get it a 50% off. I would have felt ripped off if I would have paid 2600 dollars for it. Posts: 4229 | Registered: Dec 2002
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I mean, did you start working for NASCAR or Boeing or something where such tools would be necessary? Last I checked, you were clocking hours at Starbucks.
Posts: 4753 | Registered: May 2002
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I don't know the differences in toolboxes, but my dad has lots of snap on tools, and likes them, I'm not sure about his toolbox. He restores antique cars and motorcycles.
Posts: 5362 | Registered: Apr 2004
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I always figured that the shop provided the tools. I didn't know that each mechanic had to have her own tools. How do you keep your co-workers from taking your top of the line tools?
I have a friend who had a problem with her boyfriend helping himself to her (pretty good) tools, and not returning them. Her solution worked really well. She painted all her tools pink. Now he won't touch them.
Posts: 10397 | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:I didn't know that each mechanic had to have her own tools. How do you keep your co-workers from taking your top of the line tools?
This is because most shops now get around having to treat their employees fairly by calling them "private contractors," which also means the "employees" -- as "freelance" workers who just happen to drop by the same place every day at around the same time -- have to maintain their own equipment.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote: Stan, a roll around cart is not what you pictured
Umm, noted. That wasn't my primary concern, but apparently it was missed anyway.
An' I like the idea of the mechanics having their own tools. Saves the company a lot of money. Can hardly trust people as it is these days, they don't need to spend 5 times what they should in tools because employees keep stealing them.
Posts: 2208 | Registered: Feb 2004
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Every skilled worker has always had his or her own tools. That's how it works. That way you keep up with them and treat them well. Borrowing tools without permission is a big deal on jobsites. Usually girls get away with it if they smile when returning them, and apologize for taking them unasked. But yes, you always keep your toolbox locked when you're going to be away from it for a while. Sharpies will make big initials on tools that will last quite a while. Also they have alphabet dies (I think they're called) that you can hammer and permanently engrave many tools with your printed initials. Some are too hard to take an impression, but they can have initials ground into them with a dremel tool or something like that. Initials help you keep up with which tools are yours, so they don't get mixed up by accident.
Initials can be ground off, too, on a grinding wheel, so they're not really a good anti-theft device. Job sites are sort of rough-and-ready places, and things aren't always by the Queen's rules, but everyone seems to go out of their way to be nice to girls.
I usually only take a few tools with me to jobsites, because I'm flying in, and I don't want to have to carry a heavy case to and from the airport. Still it's quite often that everyone ends up borrowing my tools (a large and small screwdriver in flathead and phillips head, small, medium, and large crescent wrenches, a set of Allen wrenches, maglight, needle nose pliers, wire strippers, wire cutters, Fluke multimeter, HP scientific calculator, sharpie, duct tape, electrical tape, and a few random doo dads).
If I need anything real, I borrow them from the millwrights or electricians I'm working with.
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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Flukes are awesome! They never break! I've had mine for so long! Mine is not the kind that will do data logging, and I have a separate clamp-on true-RMS ammeter.
The extra money for the true-RMS was really worth it to me once when I was in Ecuador installing a big apron conveyor, and the customer double-checked the current reading on the variable frequency drive with their clamp-on ammeter. The conveyor was running empty because the line wasn't in production yet and the drive was reading half of full load current, which is normal for an empty conveyor. Their ammeter read full load amperage, though, and they were concerned. I noticed their ammeter wasn't true-RMS, and they were skeptical that it would make such a big difference, so I got out my Fluke clamp-on with true-RMS and it agreed with the drive exactly. When they saw "Fluke", they trusted my reading totally! All this discussion went on in my broken Spanish, and sign language.
In Latin America, they maintain their machinery so beautifully! Because their capital costs are higher and labor costs are lower, they manage to get twice the normal life out of their equipment just by their amazingly good maintenance, like greasing the conveyor chain every day, and so on. Their plants are spotlessly clean, too. (They must think northamericanos are lazy pigs when they visit our plants.) So they're doubly cautious when accepting new machinery, that everything about it is perfect to begin with. Had they suspected anything was wrong, I could have been down there forever fiddling with stuff to be sure they were satisfied.
In some ways the way they maintain equipment in Latin America is an engineer's dream. We love it when people baby our machines and don't abuse them. However, it arises from the high capital costs and relatively low wages there, so in that respect it's not a good thing, I guess.
Flukes are also an engineer's dream. Sometimes I would want mine to break so I would have an excuse to get the top-of-the-line new one (like yours), but nope, it just keeps working forever! Flukes are beautiful things! Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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I was annoyed when my mother gave me a pink tool set (why not engrave on them "math is hard"?? ), but Tzadik not only doesn't mind using them, I think he likes it. Posts: 2762 | Registered: Sep 1999
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I have never been fond of pink, myself, but electric orange and green make tools harder to lose at a jobsite, so those are nice. Nobody seems to think those aren't sufficiently masculine to use, either.
I have some pliers that have a purple and blue floral pattern on them. I'm not sure how they did that. They coated it with some tough plastic coating or something. They're pretty cool, yo. The hardware store where I got them had a whole line of floral patterned tools.
Lissa, the pink tools would be especially objectionable if they weren't very good tools. You know? Because they assumed girls wouldn't know the difference, or really need good tools. They'd just want them to look pretty. Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Nick: And not Craftsman tools either. bleh.
Everything I've read says that Craftsman tools and Matco/Snap-on/Mac have a lot of cross-over in the foundries that manufacture their tools. Most of what I've read has Matco and Snap-on pretty much classified in the same rank of "quality" so, if you've only spent $1300 (only!) and the other is going to run you 4 grand. I'd keep the Snapon.
Posts: 4753 | Registered: May 2002
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Snapon and matco have the best hand tools, matco has the best boxes.
I'm not talking about production location or method, I'm talking about customization, versatility, security, weight capacity and cubic inches of storage space. Matco is superior in most if not all those. I'm simply asking those who have had experience with matco boxes: Is it worth the money?
Craftsman tools are alright for your average user, but for a professional, they're not strong enough. I've personally sheared a lot of Craftsman tools. Yes, they're guaranteed for life, but that doesn't mean they're high quality. To quote Tommy Boy, "That doesn't mean that they're not a guaranteed piece of #$%*!"
You are right about Matco/Snapon. Their hand tools are about the same quality, but I got a 50% discount on Snapon, so it was a no brainer for what I would have until my first toolbox became insufficient.
quote:Originally posted by Nick: PC, most of the tooboxes that professional NASCAR mechanics use can be well up to 20,000 dollars.
If I paid $20,000 for a freaking toolbox I'd expect it to organize my tools for me and be able to pull out any tool I needed on demand.
Posts: 4753 | Registered: May 2002
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A common mistake, Tom, something's price does not directly reflect its value.
The value of a product is almost (and I only say almost because loopholes are best when dealing with real life) always more than its price. For instance, water is far more valuable than what is charged for it; more valuable than diamonds, for instance.
However, because the quantities of water involved are so high, people are willing to supply it very cheaply to meet the demand.
The demand for high end toolboxes, however, is very low. This low demand results in a much higher price for something that is likely not considerably more valuable than a slightly more normal toolbox. However, for those who have a demand for that high end toolbox, the price is likely fairly inconsequential. Its not that the high end toolbox is worth twnty times what a lower end toolbox is, its that the demand for a high end toolbox is so much lower that suppliers are only willing to provide a toolbox perhaps two or three times better for twenty times the price.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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I'm an Electrical Engineer. I do enjoy it very much. It's exactly the sort of thing I enjoy most. But I wouldn't describe it as being glamorous in the least. I've traveled to all these places, some of them rather small and obscure, and others big and full of interest, but almost all I ever get to see is airports, hotels, rental cars, factories, plants, or mills, and a few restaurants. I personally find it very cool. I love mills and the usually kind and genuine people who keep them running. But I think it would strike most people as rather a dull and squalid job.
I happen to love industrial technology. There's something so awesome about huge equipment efficiently and rapidly doing its task that appeals to the kid in me. I also find that plants and mills are beautiful places. I know that most people find them ugly, but to me there's something wonderful about them, so functional and spare, and so well-made and effective. The job they do, generating cheap high-quality paper or industrial diamonds or clean water to supply the world, is a worthy one. Were we rustics, like hobbits, we would do all those things by hand, and then products like paper would be so rare and costly that only the rich could use them.
The fact that anyone in our society can buy a book, or a blank legal pad and pencils (an unimaginable luxury for most of human history) for a few dollars inspires me and fills me with happiness. That we can turn our taps on and get clean water, that we have indoor plumbing and bathroom tissue, that we can flip a switch and make warmth or light, those are the things made possible by the plants at which I install my equipment, and more importantly, by the people who love and understand the workings of these plants, and who keep them going.
<laughs> I didn't realize I was going to wax so enthusiastic about industrial technology, but it is indeed a glorious thing. Sing, goddess, of the glories of western technological civilization!
My job sometimes has me crawling around in conveyor pits in rat-infested warehouses devoid of any heating or cooling. I've been covered in bearing grease or hydraulic oil, been doused by pulpers, who deposit warm itchy blobs of half-digested cardboard all over me like a baby burping its formula, and had to wade through sumps of foul seepage, grateful for the high tops of my steel-toed boots. But then again, I get to drive forklifts, plucking some enormous can off a shelf like it was a toy, ride lift trucks, negotiating my way through obstacles to reach some remote location from 20 feet up, play with tools, and most fun of all, choreograph my equipment to toss around 5 ton rolls or bales in a delicate dance from production to warehouse.
The really fun part of my job is that it's like science. It's like a big puzzle that I get to solve. I write the program that directs the actions of all these machines, and if ever they aren't behaving, I get to crank up the scientific method and figure out what's going on. I get to make hypotheses and then test them out against reality until I understand what is actually taking place. It's like science sped up, and when the ahas finally come it's a great thrill.
The absolute most fun thing about my job is that it's an act of creation. I get to imagine, in my mind, how something should be done, and work out on paper just the way to bring it about. I then direct the construction of my imaginings so that they become tangible and real. Then finally I see them put into place, and make sure they works as they should. I baby them through the first stages of life, then launch them into production and leave them in the care of others.
I like to think I'm pretty good at it. I seem to be given the gift of seeing clearly what is going on with the physical world, when others are puzzled. I regularly get to experience the joy of making some small change in a program, machine, or system, then ahhhh suddenly it works right now, everything is good. I get a big charge out of that.
quote:Its not that the high end toolbox is worth twnty times what a lower end toolbox is, its that the demand for a high end toolbox is so much lower that suppliers are only willing to provide a toolbox perhaps two or three times better for twenty times the price.
But toolboxes are generally purchased by people who need tools, who are not themselves known for ignorance. Which means that a company which markets less expensive toolboxes of higher quality should -- assuming proper marketing -- make a killing in this space. Why hasn't this happened?
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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My bottom box is a Mac, my top box is a Craftsman, my sidecar box is a Matco. Snap-On stuff was way overpriced back when I was buying tools between 1986 and 1990.
Most of my tools are Mac, but I've got the occasional Winzer, Hazet, etc. that makes the tool that does EXACTLY what you need to get the stupid oil filter out of a honda or turn out a stud without destroying the threads. Same thing with Matco and Snap-on. If it does the job and nobody else makes it, that's who you buy from. And don't discount Craftsman. They are just as "strong" as the other brands, but they lack polish. They just aren't as "nice" to work with, and they don't have as much variety, so they may not fit your application precisely. But every once in a while they do exactly what you need.
Every mechanic I knew started out with a craftsman box. Filled it with nice tools as the need arose. Then when the craftsman box was too full, you'd have a better idea of what kind of box you actually need. Then you buy the Matco, Mac or whatever. They all take trade-ins. And everybody traded up every couple of years. I was about ready to trade in my hodgpodge of toolboxes when I stopped being a mechanic.
As for the value of the box, I'd start with a straighforward cost/volume and then consider what additional features are worth to me personally. Good quality sliding drawers, wheels, locks, etc. Like I said, back then Snap-On was overpriced. You couln't get a good trade in value for it. Couldn't tell you what costs what these days.
But I'd sure look around for a second hand box before I bought one new off the truck. Sure as hell someone's planning on trading up.
Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002
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quote:The really fun part of my job is that it's like science. It's like a big puzzle that I get to solve. I write the program that directs the actions of all these machines, and if ever they aren't behaving, I get to crank up the scientific method and figure out what's going on. I get to make hypotheses and then test them out against reality until I understand what is actually taking place. It's like science sped up, and when the ahas finally come it's a great thrill.
I'm an EE too, that's why I thought it sounded really cool. Much cooler than my boring office design job (that's design in an office, not designing offices -- though I do some of that as well).
I wouldn't mind some more specifics, if you feel like elaborating on your job description and duties.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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No, they shouldn't make a killing, because the small number produced means the cost of producing them remains large. Furthermore, did any producer charge a price significantly smaller, they'd be swamped with orders -- likely far more orders than they were willing to fulfill even at that price, and seeing the high demand, would raise their price to make more profit, bringing the market back into equilibrium.
If they didn't see any incentive to raise their price, everyone would be doing it; since everyone hasn't lowered their price, we know there's no meaningful profit incentive in it (a short glut of money at the cost of efficiency is no profit at all, particularly as the response from other manufacturers would likely be so instantaneous as to negate any glut of money -- it takes next to no effort to lower a price).
Your question reveals a fundamental misunderstanding of market economics. There are very good reasons price wars essentially never happen; suggesting that a price war seems the obvious result of a situation almost always reflects a misunderstanding of the situation.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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Well, I've had several different jobs since I became an EE, but the one I traveled the most for and learned the most from was working with an engineering firm that designed and built machinery for paper mills. It was a small firm, employing about 20 people, about 10 of whom were engineers, all mechanical except for me.
The machine designers would come to me and explain the concept, what they wanted it to do, and how their machines needed to work. If it was an unfamiliar machine I would get all the details about motors, pneumatic actuators, hydraulic systems and actuators, every way in which the thing moved. Then I'd design the electrical, (and sometimes hydraulic, and pneumatic) systems to do what they needed. I did some mechanical design, as well, mostly small things that pertained to the various limit switches. For instance, for a grapple hoist I designed an assembly that bolted underneath and detected when the hoist cable went slack. The previous design was based on springs and was very unreliable. I designed one based on gravity and it worked like a charm. That was fun!
The MEs totally let me do any mechanical stuff I wanted to do. Their contention was that mechanical stuff is all simple, unlike that magical weird invisible electricity I played with all the time. So that I could learn their jobs easily though they claimed they were unable to learn mine. Really, I think they liked that I did almost all the start-ups, since that way I had to travel constantly and they didn't.
But that suited me fine for a long time. Because I was the main person who saw the machinery working in the actual mills, and talked to the operators, mill managers, maintenance and production people, I quickly learned as much about the machines as anyone, and when I made suggestions for changes, they listened and encorporated them. I learned the mechanical systems as well as the hydraulic, pneumatic, and electrical systems, so I got an excellent broad engineering skillset, and got to dip a finger in every pie. Though I never designed whole machines myself mechanically speaking, I did start them up, including all the mechanical aspects of operation, so that kept me quite busy.
After a while doing that, I began to bring up people under me, hoping to be able to do mostly the pioneering type work myself and leave the routine work to others. It was a good way to expand their skillset, and also to get me out of the constant travel mode I was in. Since our equipment was often fairly small, I would be gone for a week or two to every jobsite, and in the office and shop for only a week or two at a time. It was pretty hectic. I found that being at one jobsite for 2 or 3 months is much less stressful and tiring than moving from site to site every week or so, though being at home is a lot better than being on the road, regardless.
Now I do much less mechanical work and instead design and install mostly larger electrical systems. This means I'm in the office and shop far more than on the road, which is nice, and also when I do go on the road I tend to stay at one site for a good long while. Electrical work is way cleaner and more comfortable than mechanical startups too, since you get to spend most of your time in clean air conditioned motor control centers and control rooms, instead of grubbing around in conveyor pits.
I've traveled so far only in the Western Hemisphere, but I'd like to expand that to the rest of the planet someday. We had several jobs in the far east before the currency collapsed a few years back and ended those prospects, but I wanted to go to rural China and also to Indonesia, where we had big systems going in before the customers went bust. Europe seems pretty well covered by various mostly German firms, so I've never gotten to go there. We had a few machines go to Australia which I would have LOVED to visit, but they were always small enough that they didn't need me to ride along.
People often seemed suprised at first that a female does what I did, getting dirty and doing "honest work" meaning getting hot and sweaty and working with your muscles instead of sitting in an office thinking all day which I find to be very fun (and don't tell my boss but I'm not quite sure why they pay me for that part). After a while in the field, filthy dirty, tired, and either very hot or freezing cold, you definitely learn to appreciate a wonderful clean air conditioned office. On the other hand, it was fun traveling and getting away from the office, too, but since I love being in the shop as well, overseeing the fabrication of the equipment, and even helping to wire it sometimes, and always inspecting and testing before shipment, then I can get out of the deskjob from time to time even at home, so I don't go stir crazy.
Way TMI, probably more than you wanted to know, so you shouldn't encourage me. Would you tell me more about what you do? Are you designing all the time and never inspecting or making the things you design?
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I'm working for a M and E consulting firm, mainly doing new commercial construction. Meaning, we do all the M & E for about 20 architectural firms.
I spend about 80% of my time in the office, either designing, putting together specs, coordinating meetings and answering questions from contractors.
The remaining 20% is spent inspecting jobs, or more frequently going to monthly coordination meetings, which by and large are an utter waste of time. All of our stuff is local, but we extend from about Beaumont/Houston to the west to Slidell in the east. So when I'm out of the office the majority of my time is spent driving.
The design part is fun. The stupid questions, politics, and the pissing contests that accompany almost every meeting are not at all fun.
But they keep me fairly busy, and I know I can get licensed with this firm, so that's worth something I guess.
I still say your job sounds a lot cooler. I loved how much crossover I got in school with the mechanical and civil guys. They're all just like the ME's at your office -- electricity is a total miracle to them. My ME buddies still, to this day, tell me whenever we get together, "I don't know how you got through some of those electrical classes. That's gotta be the hardest stuff I've ever seen."
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:If they didn't see any incentive to raise their price, everyone would be doing it; since everyone hasn't lowered their price, we know there's no meaningful profit incentive in it
Well, I wonder. I'm actually really intrigued now by the margin on these items, even after overhead. Because I'm more inclined to suspect collusion than to think that $20,000 toolboxes are priced to the market.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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See, I don't even know what M and E stands for, except I'm guessing the E is electrical. So you design the electrical systems for buildings? That sounds pretty cool to me. Sounds like you need some time at the construction site, though, if the office is starting to get to you. I wonder if you could get away with that? Is the construction industry so well-developed that once they get the drawings from you, that's all they need? Do they never call back to ask you what the heck you meant by x, y, or z? Spending time at the actual jobsites talking to the people who use your drawings is usually really fun.
There is always a certain amount of head-butting that goes on in big projects, and some customers try to drain the fun out of the job by contending over every little thing. I am not fond of the necessity for wrangling, but it's all in good fun, and engineers have this total luxury that we aren't making decisions based on our wishes, but rather, based on natural laws. So when a customer screams that he absolutely has to have X, and he refuses to accept Y, then I can smile and explain to him the technical considerations. So it's not actually that he's pressing me. He's trying to yell at gravity to not pull so hard or something. You know? I can step back and see that, so it doesn't bother me.
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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Whereas I'm relatively certain the price is a market price .
There are relatively few barriers to entry in the toolbox market. If there were significant profits to be made by price adjustment in high end toolboxes, one of the many companies more than capable of entering the market and doing so would very well have done so.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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Could the barrier for entry be the brand though? As I understand it the high end tool market is very brand aware/sensitive (most likely for good reason -- why gamble on an untested brand?)
In another words, the prohibitive barrier for entry isn't the production but rather the marketing/sales costs that come with starting a new brand.
Posts: 3423 | Registered: Aug 2001
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The M stands for Mechanical engineering. And no, most of the time I spend on the phone is for explaining what I (or we) meant on the drawings. My problem is, even though it would be great for me to get out to the jobsite, my bosses would prefer me to stay in the office unless I have a specific task to do in the field. And since about 20 of my jobs are currently under construction it's not like there's any one place I can go hang out and watch people install stuff. So I pick things up a piece at a time, and I try to schedule myself out of the office at least one day a week, for sanity's sake.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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I've heard lots of people refer to their toolbox as being worth $20,000, but they are referring to the value of the tools in it, in addition to the cost of the box itself. That's pretty easy to do.
I looked on the Snap-On Site, and this was the most expensive box I could find, without tools. At 1300 lbs, with disc brakes, it still seems expensive, but it's not $20,000.
quote:Originally posted by quidscribis: Tatiana, I gotta tell you your job sounds way cool, and I especially like the part about how much you love it. It's obviously a great fit.
Thanks for the description.
Quid, thanks for reading! I hope I get to do some work in Sri Lanka someday. That would be awesome! I'm not forgetting that you invited me to visit you! (Are y'all 50 Hz 240V for your house power? (European standard?))
When I read your "Dear Hatrack..." thread I thought "that sounds like something I would do". I've known since then that we were kindred spirits.
El JT, designing buildings is something I've never done so it sounds really interesting to me. Do you design the HV/AC systems too? Or just lighting, elevators, power for machinery, etc.?
I did this very fun job working on a natural gas engine-generator and hot water chiller (combined heat and power generation, or CoGen) for a large hotel in California. The generator ran all the time (called a base load system) in parallel with the utility power to decrease the power bill, and the hot water from cooling the engine was used to run an absorption chiller for air conditioning. The system was also designed to ride through a power outage and provide emergency backup power to the kitchens and banquet rooms. Apparently the hotel made a lot of their money from hosting conventions and meetings, and they felt that being able to keep those going through a power outage was a good selling point. Anyway, it was very cool! I want a cogen system for my house now. I do think distributed power systems are the way of the future. They're also super efficient if you use the heat to do useful work. The utilities have to throw away their heat (which is some huge portion of the total energy released) because there's no real use for it at a power plant.
So the only time I've been involved with building power systems, really, is when I was interfacing my system with that hotel's site power. I would like to learn more about all that. I've done stuff at mills too, and perhaps it's similar. Do commercial buildings all have 3 phase power coming in, and then just balance the various loads more or less between the phases? Would all the heating air conditioning, elevators, pumps, etc. be 3 phase motors? What other loads do you have typically besides lighting, elevators, and HV/AC? Do the HV/AC systems work with hot and cold water (like my hotel)? Or is that because of the way in which every room has its own thermostat in a hotel, and any vacant rooms they want to not be heated or cooled?
Do you design the data cabling, phones, etc. as well as power?
What was the most fun or coolest strange design you ever worked on?
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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I'm not saying Craftsman tools are crap for the average user. Craftsman is what I use around the house. I have a set in my car for my "on the road tools." I just don't trust them in my career due to breaking tools. A broken tool means lost time on flat rate.
I even have some Craftsman tools in my box now. My micrometer for example. Measures down to the vernier scale just like a Snapon/Blue point one would. It even has a little digital display so you don't have to read the sleeve, and you can switch it from metric to standard to avoid annoying measurement conversions. Not that I would measure rotors often enough anyway, but I like that little feature. Most of the time dealerships just r&r the rotors with brand new ones to save labor costs. Posts: 4229 | Registered: Dec 2002
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Zal: that may stymie some, but given there's a relatively cost efficient way to break into such a small market (free samples and sponsorships), especially one that's time-honored in an area the market is closely tied to (car races), and that sunk costs are not relevant to calculations of long-term viability, I'm suspect of that.
If you had to break into the mindshare of many millions with something that was relatively undifferentiated by usefulness, like soft drinks, that's one thing, but this is a very different situation.
Not to mention that for it to be collusion, it would have to be oddly successful and complex collusion, given that as far as I can tell the companies involved do vary their prices on the high end stuff.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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quote:El JT, designing buildings is something I've never done so it sounds really interesting to me. Do you design the HV/AC systems too? Or just lighting, elevators, power for machinery, etc.?
Do you design the data cabling, phones, etc. as well as power?
Our mechanical guys design the HVAC and plumbing (and whatever compressed air is required for tools and such), while I or another electrical guy do power distribution, lighting, data and phone, fire alarm, sound system (intercom/paging or sometimes just music), and whatever backup source is required (generator or whatever).
quote:Do commercial buildings all have 3 phase power coming in, and then just balance the various loads more or less between the phases? Would all the heating air conditioning, elevators, pumps, etc. be 3 phase motors? What other loads do you have typically besides lighting, elevators, and HV/AC? Do the HV/AC systems work with hot and cold water (like my hotel)? Or is that because of the way in which every room has its own thermostat in a hotel, and any vacant rooms they want to not be heated or cooled?
If the building's big enough to warrant it (and it doesn't have to be that big) we typically always bring in 120/208 3 phase. Or 277/480 if it has a lot of heavy equipment or is a really large facility. All motors over a certain size we usually try to get 3 phase, but if they're single phase we still do our best to balance the load. That's honestly something we don't spend as much time on as we should, because it's so hard to do with any accuracy.
Say I have a whole panel dedicated to receptacles for one floor of office space. I probably put 6-8 recepts on a circuit, and just to be safe I guess about 200 watts per recept. I don't actually have any idea what's plugged into each outlet, or if any are going unused. So that might be a 225 A. panel with every circuit having the same projected load. But in the real world, that panel probably won't ever see more than 100 A. (or less). And the phases probably won't be balanced. Carry that out through every panel, and no matter how much you try you probably won't be balanced. Because even if all the mechanical stuff is 3 phase, and it's all balanced it still doesn't all run at the same time. So we just do our best without killing ourselves trying to get everything balanced.
Our biggest load is almost always (like 95%) heat. We figure out the total heat load and compare it with the total cool load and we use whichever is bigger for our calcs (since heating and cooling are non-simultaneous loads). Next up is equipment, if it's an industrial facility. If not it's either lighting (if it's somewhere with a lot of site lighting) or receptacles (if it's a regular office bldg.).
Big HVAC stuff is usually 4 pipe chilled and hot water, like with your hotel. But in a situation like that, where it's important for each guest to be able to control his own climate we'll either do a thru-wall unit (packaged heat and cool) or a fan powered box in the ceiling void. Thru-wall is cheap, which is why you see it at most hotels. Fan powered boxes are upscale, and usually only used at nice hotels (and big office buildings.
Small buildings are usually done with standard split system HVAC -- Air handler inside and condensing unit outside. These use regular R-134 instead of water.
Coolest job? Hmmm. This job, an art museum in Lafayette was probably one of the coolest looking.
The most interesting would probably be one of the schools we've done recently, because it's always such a pain in the ass dealing with all the extra coordination stuff with a school. As well as dealing with a ton of extra restrictions (fire alarm and intercom at least).
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:I didn't know that each mechanic had to have her own tools. How do you keep your co-workers from taking your top of the line tools?
This is because most shops now get around having to treat their employees fairly by calling them "private contractors," which also means the "employees" -- as "freelance" workers who just happen to drop by the same place every day at around the same time -- have to maintain their own equipment.
Not in California. I'll be an employee with full benefits. California actually has a law that if you supply your own tools, the minimum wage, which is currently $7.25 per hour, is doubled. So I'll always make at least $13.50 per hour.
Most CA dealership shops provide lifts, electrical power, diagnostic scan tools, coolant flushers, AC refrigerant vacuum units, and an air line for your pnuematic tools. It really depends.
Posts: 4229 | Registered: Dec 2002
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posted
I've never heard of a mechanic that was considered a private contractor either. You still get medical benefits and holiday pay through the shop. Mechanics are just expected to have their own tools.
Makes sense, really, because the shop can't know what tools a particular mechanic will prefer to use. There's generally a tool crib for specialized tools, say wheel bearing pullers that only work on 1986-1990 Mazda 626's. That's something a mazda shop needs to have, but it doesn't make sense for a mechanic to spend the money on it.
I have seen shops where they give the mechanics a "tool allowance" so that they will buy the most up to date tools. Never worked in one though.
Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002
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Carrie
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