posted
I am in distress. I talked to my school counselor today about a child whom I suspect of being sexually abused. At this point, the child is not willing to talk about anything. She just exhibits behaviors that are extremely worrisome. The counselor told me that it seems I'm doing the right kinds of things, and gave me a couple of suggestions to try so I can help the little girl know how to act in the classroom. My co-teacher, my assistant, and the counselor are all in agreement that "something is not right". Sadly, we have no court-admissable proof.
I'm just really messed up in the head right now. I've been worried about this kid for a long time, but to have my concerns taken seriously and somewhat (though not fully) confirmed is really scary. I want to help, but at this point there's not a whole lot I can do. Keep up the "safety net" I've been trying to build for the kid, teach her how to express her volatile emotions appropriately, and look out for anything else. That's all I can do.
posted
I think your job is to report your suspicion. It's someone else's job to do the investigation.
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posted
I know. I've done that. But it doesn't keep me from feeling really messed up. And it doesn't change the fact that this little girl is really messed up and acts so in the classroom. I want to know what I can do to help her in this environment now. The counselor told me I was doing the right kinds of things, and she gave me a couple avenues to pursue, but it just hurts. I hurt for my student.
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posted
I've been there and it is a horrible feeling. We just had an inciding at the Y and it has shaken everyone to the core. Yesterday a nine-year-old asked me what rape is. I told her that it is something that she needs to discuss with her parents.
Jenny, I can think of no better advocate for an abused child than you.
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I know it must tug and tear at your heart to be in a position than you can see the need but may not be able to fill it. I'm sorry. I hope all goes well. Having a caring heart means you're perfect for a teacher. It also means it hurts when you can't fix everything.
posted
Oh, I'm sorry. Who can (did) you report your suspicions to? Who is the authority in this kind of situation?
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posted
Teachers must report any suspected abuse to their supervisors - usually the principal. The principal must then notify CFS and officially report the suspicion.
We just had a meeting about abuse and protocol and reporting yesterday. We all sat in stunned silence and felt sick to our stomachs. It's even worse when you know the abuser and never suspected.
Jenny, try to keep reminding yourself that this little girl will get help because of you.
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posted
At this point, the signals are too vague to report to the police or social services. All we can definitely say is that "something is not right." The school social worker/counselor is on the job, but she acknowledged my feelings and told me that we may never know for sure. All I can do now is help the child in school, teaching her how to behave and trying to make school a good place for her to be. So I'm doing that.
I don't think I could ever be a social worker. Great honors to those of you who work with this sort of thing every day! My GOD are you heroes! Posts: 3141 | Registered: Apr 2000
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Perhaps it would be wise for anyone who might be a child's confidante to take a look at it. I've printed it out for myself and my fellow teachers. I'm just waiting for the ball to drop.
I have an uncanny ability to get people to tell me things. I'm afraid that I'm going to be the one to hear about it first. If she decides to tell anyone, that is.
I hate this.
(Hatrack Support Group) Thank you so much for being there. It's good to know I can post this, and good to have your kind replies.
posted
I'm glad you can post here, and people tell you things because they know you can be trusted with them. Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Me too... i know I couldn't take being a social worker... It would crush me. Observe her carefully. If her behaviour is still consistent with something being wrong, do not hesitate to report this!
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posted
I'm sorry it's happening, but I'm not sorry you're the one facing it, Jenny.
I say that because if, God forbid, a child I knew was being abused in any way, you'd be on the relatively short list of people I know who I'd want them to be talking to. I know you'll do right by this one, and I'm glad you're in her life.
Ideally it's not sexual abuse, but some other less long-term and more easily treatable problem. But if it is, I'm glad you're there. Keep your eyes open, and if determination, resolve, and comfort can travel the Information Superhighway, you've got it from me and many others `round here.
posted
It gets really tricky because if you even ask them questions that could lead things a certain way, then the defense attorney can have a field day about all allegations being made up.
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"Is there anything you want to tell me?" or "How's your day?" or "Did you have a good morning?" are too close to leading the witness. I have encouraged her to write about her feelings and told her that she could write me personal letters if she wanted to do so.
That's about it. I've also tried to just give her some of myself - letting her be near me during work time, and not pushing her to talk if she doesn't want to.
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Whatever is happening, I know you guys are both good-hearted, compassionate, caring women who will do everything in your power to help a needy child.
You have my admiration for that. You may not be social workers, but you CARE. And that's saying a lot.
Incidentally, I'll have to add my for all teachers, social workers, cousnelors, and therapists that help abused children.
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All I can say is that I am glad that little girl has you (and the others) on her side. She is far luckier than most children in her situation. Hopefully, whatever is wrong has been caught early enough that she can heal with time.
You are one amazing person. Although you may feel agitated and not in control, you seem to be handling a terrible situation with patience and caring.
Here is to things taking a turn for the better.
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posted
What do you do when you're the only confidante of someone you strongly suspect is in an abusive situation? Someone underaged and powerless who doesn't trust people for very good reason and so won't tell you enough that you could help them, and wouldn't ever agree to let you help them anyway?
I don't know the right thing to do or the best thing to do. Those are outside my ability to know. But I do know that I would never betray the trust of someone like that. I would never ever take any action without their permission. I would persuade and reassure and guide, the best I knew how. I would be a friend and a support, be there and be willing to help in whatever way I'm allowed.
Such an agonizing position to be in, seeing and knowing about a great evil, and robbed of the power to act! But love is patient and gentle. It does not tire. It speaks only truth. It is faithful in the face of suspicion. Love is humble and has quiet courage. It does not shrink back in horror. Love is infinitely strong. I don't have to be strong, I just have to be the vessel for Love, and let it provide the strength. It is stronger far than mere paltry evil.
It is love that saves people. I am utterly powerless yet I wield the ultimate weapon against the dark. I will hold fast to it.
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quote:But I do know that I would never betray the trust of someone like that. I would never ever take any action without their permission. I would persuade and reassure and guide, the best I knew how. I would be a friend and a support, be there and be willing to help in whatever way I'm allowed.
Are you saying that even if a child told you what sort of abuse was going on you wouldn't tell the authorities without her permission? THAT would be the ultimate betrayal. Don't expect her to thank you for that if she lives long enough to grow up.
I'm glad I work with adults, not kids. I don't know how I could deal with a situation like this. Jenny, it sounds like you are doing all the right things. I'm glad you have the counselor and coworkers around to help.
posted
"I would never betray the trust of someone like that."
AK, Jenny is a mandated reporter. If it ever comes out in court that this child is being abused, Jenny could be taken to court herself.
Where is MACK?
Jenny, I realize you have reported this to your principal, but if I were you I would get documentation of that fact. This case should be reported to the social services if the child is speaking to the counselor about it. You can also report a case yourself if you have notified your principal, and feel that nothing is being done. The counselor may be good, but if the child has spoken of being abused, and she does not report it, she is irresponsible.
As someone mentioned, it is your job, and hers, to report, not to investigate.
And with all that cold, legal stuff out of the way, I understand your heartbreak. Sexual abuse is the worst thing in the world. I feel for both of you. Just don't keep her secrets!
posted
I believe in evil. I do - I firmly believe it exists. And it flourishes and grows in the dark. Keeping the secret gives it even more power.
Bring it out into the light, and you've taken the first step to defeating it.
Our talk about the people who work with abused children made me think about a doctor I used to go to church with. This man left an extraordinarily successful career as an infertility specialist to start a pediatric gyn clinic. The majority of his work is with children that have been abused. Children that have been so abused that medical intervention is necessary. His practice now is a money loser, he supports it with his own money and that of his wife, who is an ob/gyn herself and heads up a hospital maternal and fetal medicine department.
Whenever I am reminded of people like that I am humbled. When mack tells me what her day was like I'm humbled.
God calls people to these jobs, and they must be very special people.
posted
I think perhaps that what Anne Kate said might not've been universal. As in if a child told her she was being sexually molested and she (ak) believed her, but the child told her not to tell anyone, she wouldn't tell authorities.
At any rate if that is what you meant, Anne Kate (that you wouldn't tell if the child asked you not to), then I would have to disagree with you. I think letting such a plea in such circumstances bind you would be much, much worse than the almost certainly temporary feelings of betrayl the child would feel.
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posted
That's true, Jeff. It wasn't meant to be a universal, or anything like that. And not about Jenny Gardener... <<<<<Jenny>>>>> ... who is an angel. I'm sorry, I was using her support thread to tell something... work through something... that's going on with me. It just came out.
I'm saying what I believe to be the right thing to do. The choice I make. Not professionals or teachers or anyone else but me. I know it's right because I've been both. I've been the child who was being abused, and then later on the one trying to help the abused child. Same as I feel about suicide. I've been the one on the edge of the abyss, and I've been the one there standing with them and holding their hand. And force isn't the right way. That's all.
Respecting their right to choose and not betraying them is FIRST. It's before anything else, even life. I will cajole, persuade, beg, cry, plead, listen, counsel, request, suffer, fast, pray, keep vigil, and give my whole self. I will put myself, my own life, in their hands to also take, if that seems right to me, but I will not force them and I will not betray. That is what I see as right, and it is what I will do.
I'm not saying what other people should do. It's not given to me to make their choices. It's only for me to decide what I do. And that's how I see it.
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posted
And so why did I post that here? I don't know. It's so weird. There is a tremendous power in telling. What is that power?
But to be able to unleash the power of telling, you have to be FREE to tell, independent of any decision to act. It's like you can't decide to act until you can tell.... until you have told... and talked it all through and come to a decision of what is right.
So if there is nobody you can tell, then that process is cut off before it starts.
Actions done TO you mean nothing. What you CHOOSE means everything. You can't free someone. They have to free themselves. The thing that you can do that gives them the MOST freedom is to listen, to give your caring and attention and love and respect, and then WAIT for them to decide, to choose, the right course of action.
To decide you KNOW the right course of action for somebody else, and do it against their will, is an act of aggression, of violation, of betrayal. That is not an act of love.
Doctors have as a basic premise that they don't give medical treatment against someone's will. I believe in that.
I think the very worst thing you can do to someone is not to kill them, but to take their agency away. The worst damage that abused people have suffered is not the physical pain inflicted but that their selfness is violated and their choices have been taken away. Sovereignty over their own bodies and minds. By continuing that, I can't make it right.
[ February 06, 2004, 03:10 PM: Message edited by: ak ]
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I don't know if I agree with you on the issue - I see no value in letting abuse continue - but I think I know what you mean. The consequences of my own slightly-disastrous decisions are easier to bear than the semi-positive consequences of decisions I wasn't allowed to make.
This breaks down, though, when other people have to bear the consequences of my disastrous decisions. And since we are all so interconnected, it's very difficult to make a decision that affects only yourself.
But I think I see what you mean. The person made a decision to tell you, not the world or someone else. It's like... telling someone else's story. It wouldn't be your story to tell. When your silence, though, allows the abuse to continue, you become complicit in it. That really is worse. I'd rather inflict the pain of betrayal than the pain of abuse.
So, I'd say something to stop the source of the pain. But... you can't force someone into therapy, and I don't think it works if you try.
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posted
It's a horrible choice to have to make. It's like being squeezed in a vice. I think most sensible people just stay out of such situations altogether. But how can I do that? Anyway, I was never a sensible person.
But thanks for the hugs. <<<<<Katie>>>>> <<<<<AJ>>>>>
And love and support to <<<<<<Jenny>>>>>>. Also to <<<<<<<<CT>>>>>>>>> who also deals with this stuff. And <<<<<<<<<mac>>>>>>>>>>. Thank goodness none of you are sensible people.
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quote:Doctors have as a basic premise that they don't give medical treatment against someone's will. I believe in that.
Whether that is right or wrong, the reality is different. Psychiatrists and other mental health professionals violate that principle as a matter of course. People get locked up, for both brief and long periods. Many get medications they don't want. (And pharmaceutical companies are helping to fund advocacy to expand involuntary treatment laws.)
I'm not trying to dispute the validity of your belief, especially as it applies to yourself and your actions, except for a couple caveats (besides the ones I mentioned):
First, when you say the "worst thing you can do for someone is not to kill them," it seems to contradict the idea of individual empowerment. A forceful argument can be made for people to be free of interference in self-destruction - we bring in a whole other set of issues in empowering others to do the job for us.
Secondly, the rules on autonomy are different for children in many arenas. Not just suicide.
I know people are hospitalized against their will, but I'm not talking about those who do need to be hospitalized for their own safety. I just mean those that need to deal with some things, but so much energy is being poured into merely surviving that they don't have any left to lift their heads and talk about it. Besides, there is still a stigma and stereotype attached to needing help.
Does that work?
I was thinking of one of my brothers. He was ordered to talk to a counselor a couple of times, and each time was reported to be an intelligent, fine kid who was taking care of everything as best he could and didn't want help. But I could see that he was being ripped inside, and just didn't give into it and dealt with it in other ways. Ordering therapy for him, even when he was a minor, obviously didn't work.
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posted
I wonder if we could get the cloning thing going and station a Jenny at every school, YMCA, church, and youth organization in the country. I'd put her on my kid's "emergency contact" card.
I wish you luck in a tough situation, and I wish your student even more luck for a tougher one.
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quote: First, when you say the "worst thing you can do for someone is not to kill them," it seems to contradict the idea of individual empowerment. A forceful argument can be made for people to be free of interference in self-destruction - we bring in a whole other set of issues in empowering others to do the job for us.
I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here, so I wonder if what I said was not phrased well. What I meant is that killing someone is not the very worst thing you can do to them. Taking away their agency is worse than killing them. Is that how you understood my confusing sentence? Can you clarify what you meant in reply?
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One interpretation of the exact wording of your sentence seemed to suggest that it's relating to requests to help in someone's self-destruction or suicide.
However, after I reread it, I doubt very much that anyone else read it that way. My tendency to read it that way stems from the fact that I have dealt with the statement I *thought* you made frequently - where people equate the right to be left alone with a "right" to get help in killing themselves. That has to do with me and the small, often depressing world that I live in.
Getting back to another point, though - medical professionals follow a different set of rules when it comes to honoring someone's wishes when they've decided on a diagnosis of "mental illness."
Hope that helps and sorry for a weird interpretation that had nothing to do with what you were trying to say.
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posted
Ah, I can see how my wording was confusing.
Tell me about the situations you are talking about, if you will. As an advocate for the disabled, are you dealing with issues of euthanasia and assisted suicide?
[ February 06, 2004, 05:19 PM: Message edited by: ak ]
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quote:Tell me about the situations you are talking about, if you will. As an advocate for the disabled, are you dealing with issues of euthanasia and assisted suicide?
I deal with those topics every day - they're the main focus of my work. You can check out the website listed in my profile for links to articles I've written and a link to the organization I work for.
If you want to discuss it, that's cool. But I'd rather start a separate thread and not derail this one.
Getting people annoyed is one of my job duties. I try not to do it in my free time. Posts: 4344 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
I was also abused and now help others who have been abused.
In most cases, the very worst thing that could happen if the abuse is reported against the (minor) victim's will and then dealt with appropriately is better than the best thing that could happen if it is not reported and is allowed to go on.
What is bad is when the report is not believed and the victim is left at the abuser's mercy, or if the proper steps are not taken to protect the victim from further abuse.
I have reported two cases this year. Neither was dealt with correctly by the authorities.
posted
For what it's worth, a woman I was in a relationship many years ago was a survivor of sexual abuse. As an adult, it still affected her.
And some of her greatest hurts and angers were directed at the people who knew - or strongly suspected - that she was being victimized by her father.
This wasn't a reporting issue. She was pretty sure no one at school suspected. But she knew that some family members knew and not one confronted her father.
That also makes it very hard to trust anyone.
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posted
Looking back, "perhaps" was the incorrect word. I was certain you didn't mean it universally.
With an adult (or even a some older teenagers) I wholeheartedly agree with your stance. To me, though, children are different. By no means do I share a frequent adult belief that children are stupid in general...on the other hand they are very, very malleable, particularly from parents or trusted adults.
Is it worth the cost of a child enduring further abuse, particularly sexual or violent abuse, in order to untwist their mind, to convince them that, no, Uncle Herb doesn't touch them because he loves them and no, Grandma Ellen smacks them around because it's for their own good or they deserve it? These are two examples, but kids can actually believe things like that, or be too afraid to try and refute them.
I personally subscribe to a different set of beliefs, and mine includes a sliding scale based on subjective indicators the idea that, sometimes, adults must do things even if a child pleads with them not to. Not because it is right in and of itself, but because it is so often much better than the alternative.
The thing is, children DON'T have free agency anyway. They have no power whatsoever, no self-determination. A child doesn't want to go to school, but they go. Kid doesn't want to take the cough medicine, they do. Kid wants to go live with Mommy or Daddy, but judge sez with Daddy or Mommy or granpappy, kid goes. Now I agree that this doesn't make it right to just do whatever whim pleases to kids, but since children generally live under what would be (were it an adult living under it) a dictatorship, shouldn't we at least try to make it as benign a dictatorship as possible?
All that philosophical mumbo-jumbo aside, I am sorry for whatever it is you are enduring, and hope you can resolve it as successfully and with as little pain as possible. Bon chance. None of the choices are likely to be easy, and I don't envy you or anyone facing them the choice.
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posted
What things is she doing/saying that convey that she's "messed up," Andrea? I mean...what exactly means "messed up" to you, as compared to how this kid was...or how she compares to her peers.
quote:I'd rather inflict the pain of betrayal than the pain of abuse.
We deal with this a lot. When a kid begins with our agency with a therapist or doctor, we explain confidentiality. That whatever they say to us stays with us or the treatment team (say, me, the primary therapist and the doctor).
Except when they are in danger of hurting themselves or reveal that someone has hurt them or explicitly say they will hurt someone else.
If that situation DOES arise, you talk to the kid about it. Explain that you realize what they told you is in confidence, but explain your role as the responsible adult. That we are responsible in making sure a kid doesn't hurt or get hurt and that we have to report it. We explain what will happen when that report is made. We explain that they are allowed to be mad about it, but that we have to do what we're required to do.
quote:you can't force someone into therapy, and I don't think it works if you try.
Kids get forced by their parents a lot. They come in and glare and say nothing. Quite fun, really.
quote:Psychiatrists and other mental health professionals violate that principle as a matter of course.
Certainly not on an outpatient basis. You can't force anyone to do anything, including children.
quote:People get locked up, for both brief and long periods.
The majority of the time, it's a voluntary hospitalization, which means the person is free to discharge him or herself. Often, the patient realizes that things have gotten completely out of control and need the extra help of an inpatient setting. Mental health professionals prefer to use the least restrictive setting as can be. When a person is floridly psychotic, actively suicidal or actively homicidal, those are the times when a person is involuntarily hospitalized. These people are a danger to themselves and others. After 72 hours, a court hearing takes place to see whether the person still needs inpatient treatment or can be treated on an outpatient basis.
quote:Many get medications they don't want.
That doesn't mean they TAKE them.
quote:medical professionals follow a different set of rules when it comes to honoring someone's wishes when they've decided on a diagnosis of "mental illness."
Actually, they don't. It's treated as any other illness, and when a patient is in danger of serious harm, they can be hospitalized, as I explained above. It's unethical to force anyone to do anything they don't want. You can't. The best treatment comes from a willing participation in said treatment. A mental illness is just that--an illness. The illness does not make the person.
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posted
And I agree about reporting abuse...you have too. Rakeesh is right...children don't HAVE free agency.
sndrake hit it right on the money with adult survivors being pissed at those who knew and did nothing about it.
If the teachers that I now know who suspected abuse had said something, the abuse would've stopped before age 20.
Posts: 14745 | Registered: Dec 1999
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Thanks for caring about this child. We need more people willing to NOT look the other way and to worry about it and not give up because there's a bureacracy to deal with.
AND...
Please be careful. If there is someone out there willing to hurt a child, they may also form strong resentments toward the person who helps the child open up about it.
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