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I am so irked with the state of Illinois that I can barely sit still. Thank God for Zoloft, or I'd be writing this from prison.
Back in 1987, when I was 24 years old, I moved to Israel. I grew up in Chicago, and I was moving with someone else, who lived in Kansas City, Kansas. So prior to our move, I drove down to Kansas City to pick up the other person's stuff. I took my Mom's minivan.
Missouri already had 65 mph speed limits, which was cool. And the minivan had cruise control, so I set it to 69 (yeah, sue me) and settled in for the ride.
Until I saw the headlights behind me. Cop pulls me over and asks me if I know how fast I was going. "Sixty nine miles an hour, officer," I told him in all honesty. I mean, hell, if he was going to ticket me for 4 mph over the speed limit, fine.
But no. He told me I was going 77 mph. I explained about the cruise control. He explained about his radar gun. I asked him if he was aware that those things have been known to clock trees as going 60 mph. He didn't really care.
So he ticketed me. And since they'd just raised the speed limit there and hadn't updated the scale for tickets yet, it was as though I'd been going 22 miles an hour over the speed limit. A nice $85 ticket.
As soon as I got to Kansas City, I called my Mom and told her she owed me $85. <grin> She refused to believe that her speedometer could have been wrong, but about six months later, she did tell me that it turned out that her car had a problem with the speedometer.
Thanks, Ma.
Anyway, the court date on the ticket was August 1. I was due to leave for Israel on July 26, presumably for good. My Dad suggested that this being the case, and since I was utterly convinced, based on my Mom's confidence in her car and the fact that I was on cruise control, that the radar gun was wrong and that it was a bum ticket, that I should just blow it off.
Thanks, Dad.
So time goes by. I moved to California with my family so that our daughter could have two legal parents, and got a driver's license there. Afterwards, I went back to Chicago for a time, and turned my California license in for an Illinois one.
And that's when things started to get really crazy.
See, my name wasn't Lisa Liel when I left for Israel in 1987. But my Social Security number was the same. So shortly after I got my license, they realized that there were two people in the system with the same Social Security number, and a big red light went off in their offices, blinking "IDENTITY THEFT" in seven foot tall letters, while a red alert klaxon (like on Star Trek) started blaring.
Or something like that.
So it went to their fraud department, and they cancelled my license. And then they noticed that I'd marked on the application that I'd never had a driver's license suspended or revoked before. Which, to the best of my knowledge, was true.
Ah, little did I know that way back in 1987, Missouri had called Illinois after I didn't show up on August 1, and Illinois had suspended my license.
So now I was down for fraud of the identity theft persuasion and perjury, to boot. See, it doesn't matter in Illinois whether you know you're lying on a form or not. And the perjury bought me a 12 month suspension of my license. Which had already been cancelled. Yeah, don't ask. I don't get it either.
My sentence ended today, September 20, 2005. I went to work, called the Secretary of State (that's our version of the DMV), and asked exactly what I had to do. The nice lady told me that I had to pay a $70 reinstatement fee, and then pony up another $5 for the reissuance of my license. The nearest office was only half a mile from work, so I left at 11:15 for an early lunch. How long could this take, right?
So I pay my $70 to ransom my driver's license. And they tell me that the fraud department has a hold on it. They call the fraud department, and get told that I have to start from scratch. Real scratch. Never mind that I turned in my California license in Illinois and you don't have to take a driving test when you do that. My California license is now a year gone, and they don't care.
So I ask them where the nearest facility is. It's the State of Illinois building, and it's only a few long blocks away. So I go over there. By this time, my legs are screaming in agony (that elevator accident is still hurting me), but I go through the whole process. Take the written test, eye test, pay them $10 (not $5) for a license fee, but I don't have my car with me, because I'm in the Chicago Loop, and I took the train to work.
So I get back to work, do a little until the pain in my leg completely prevents me from concentrating on coding, and leave. I get back uptown, book on over to the only Secretary of State facility that does driving tests and is open until 7 pm, and go in. And even though it's about 5:20, they've got 15 cars waiting for the driving test, three testers, and they have to finish by 6 pm. So I'm SOL. Again.
Oh, btw? Here in Chicago, if you get pulled over and it turns out you're driving without a license? They don't even take you to the police station for booking. They just take you directly to the Cook County lockup. Not that I know this from personal experience. But so I'm told.
Personally, I'm a little concerned (in a detached sort of way) about how calm I seem to be about all of this. I should be bouncing off the walls. Even Zoloft isn't this good.
It's going to be a bad night.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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Since driver licenses are a "gateway ID" to all sorts of things, the US government has urged states to really work hard at getting positive identification of people before issuing them.
In addition, social security numbers are the most sought-after personal data item by identity thiefs since having that allows access to all kinds of other information.
Add to that the fact that the newly indicted ex-Governor of Illinois was involved in a drivers license scandal as one of the earliest chinks in his armor.
Finally, yes, you ended up in one of the strictest traffic courts in the US. It is actually the busiest.
So...the bottom line is that post 9/11 in Illinois, and especially in Chicago, there isn't any way in heck that a person is going to get away with ignoring a speeding ticket and no way that person is ever going to get reinstated after a license suspension without jumping through hoops.
It's only partly in the name of anti-terrorism, but I figured that might make you feel a little better about all the hassles you're currently facing.
I'm glad that you aren't getting too upset about it. That wouldn't help anyway.
Good luck. It'll all be over soon.
Not sure about the lawyer thing. Just do what they ask you to do, and prove who you are, and it should be fine.
by the way, a lawyer cannot do much to force a change in the license issuance process, if there is a problem. You just have to go through the hoops until they are satisfied.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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Contrast this to the Arizona DMV, which routinely gets confused and hands out driver's licenses instead of learning permits. I know of several people who got licenses that way. It's nice to know that there are drivers in Tucson who never had to take a driving test. Although that does explain a few things...
quote:Originally posted by Bob_Scopatz: sL: I guess that's probably because of the differences between Administrative processes and criminal law.
btw, I do hope you are refraining from driving entirely until this is cleared up.
Um... remind me again. Are you in Illinois? Are you a lawyer or government employee? If so, then of course I'm not. <grin>
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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snicker... I AM in Illinois and I work for lawyers, does that count? (yeah, as if I'd do anything....)
Posts: 4515 | Registered: Jul 2004
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I also work for lawyers. In the IT department of an enormous law firm. And I do take the train to work, because I live in West Roger's Park (about as north as you can go and still be in the city of Chicago), and work in the Loop.
How I get to the train station, however, is a bit of a mystery. <grin>
My brother is a patent attorney. When he found out about this, he was also like, "But you aren't driving, right?" Next, he tried, "But you aren't going even a single mile an hour over the speed limit, right? Ever, right?" Very anal, my bro. I love him, but he needs to learn how to relax.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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Oh, what an incredible headache. I hope you can get it straightened out soon.
And not to sound paranoid, but really watch the driving without a license thing. My ex got into trouble with unpaid tickets years ago, got caught driving without a license and now almost 10 years later still does not have a license thanks to the high fines and the trouble he got into for driving without one.
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Hmm. I got caught speeding when I was 19. Way over the limit, I was just being stupid. But I was polite and honest with the officer, who reduced it to a lesser offense ($100 instead of $200), which I promptly went and paid the next week by walking over to the town clerk's office and handing them a check.
I agree that it's a bizarre and lousy chain of events that's befallen you, but your blame-the-government attitude and your grins over continuing to break the law are sort of puzzling. Posts: 1681 | Registered: Jun 2004
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Why would anyone go to court anyway? I was trying to figure out what that had to do with anything.
Posts: 1014 | Registered: Jul 2005
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It's been a really long time since I've gotten a speeding ticket, but it at least used to be that in the State of Illinois, you could appear on your appointed court date and request supervision. If you weren't pulled over for any moving violations during your suspension time (including things like lights, seat belts, plates, etc.), then the speeding ticket is completely wiped from your record. Court cost was about $80 at the time, but compared to $200 or more for the speeding ticket plus a jump in your car insurance for the next five years, it's really worth the time to go sit in a courtroom.
You may actually want to bounce this situation off one of the bosses and see if they have ideas on how to get you through this. They won't be able to force a license issue, but maybe they can help point you in the right direction to get it resolved. (I assume that by "enormous firm" you're talking something on the level of K&E, Sidley, Jenner...)
Posts: 4515 | Registered: Jul 2004
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Zeugma, I didn't do anything wrong. I mean, okay, I took bad advice about the ticket 18 years ago, but the insanity that's happened because of that is so totally out of proportion and mindless.
As far as driving is concerned, everyone keeps saying that "Driving is not a right; it's a privilege". I don't accept the idea that the government is entitled to strip me of my rights and ladle them back to me as they see fit. I pay the same taxes as everyone else. I own my car.
Did you ever read Oliver Twist? If so, do you remember what Mr. Bumble said to the magistrate when he was told that the law says he was responsible for the actions of his wife? That's pretty much my attitude here.
And Theaca, going to court would have been to contest the ticket.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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At 24, I think you're old enough to know that you need to pay the fine when you get caught speeding. Which you knew you were doing, even if you didn't quite realize how MUCH you were speeding. :shrug:
Posts: 1681 | Registered: Jun 2004
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Oh, I understand that it is to contest the ticket. But most adults don't have the luxury of taking the time off from work or missing class or finding a babysitter to go to court. Especially since it is just a chance to get out of the ticket, and especially if there might be court costs too. I'm shocked your dad told you not to pay it and I'm not surprised by the result. Or had you not planned on returning to America?
Posts: 1014 | Registered: Jul 2005
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Find that right. I am serious...if you are going to get all worked up about this, when it is really all your own fault, find that right listed in any state, or the Constitution.
They paid for the roads...using tax money to be sure, but if you think you have paid even a tenth of the cost of one small road in all your years...even leaving out the years you weren't in the US....then you are wrong. They have the right, and the responsibility to make the rules that help keep us safe...and if you think the rules don't apply to you, guess again.
You have NO right to drive, nor did you ever have one, what you had a license that showed you had been given the privlige of being allowed to drive.
Providing you follow the law..which you didn't....and that you show respect to the system that exists to keep drivers safe, the court process that is there for legal disputes regarding traffic infractions- which you ignored 17 years ago.
I don't mean to be harsh, but you have admitted blowing off court about this, so while I hope you get your license back I don't feel too bad that you lost it in the first place. You made a choice, a choice that you knew was wrong even at the time, and this is a direct consequence of that choice.
And even now you seem to think that they should care what you think of that "right", and continue to drive illegally, not to mention blaming you FATHER for this, because he gave you bad advice.
YOU chose to act on it, right?
That makes it your responsibility, in addition to you being the one who was speeding in the first place.
I just hope you don't get pulled over now, you might never get that "right" back if you get caught. Trust me, I have been there, I know it sucks, but taking responsibility for what happened to me when something similar happened to me was one of the best things that I ever did. I stopped making excuses why the rules shouldn't apply to me, and now I am a step 9...tehy lowerst possible insurance rate allowed in MA.
Not bad for a guy who was a step 26 five years ago.
Stop blaming the system, and you father, and accept that YOU made the bad choice, and are paying for it now.
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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You MIGTH be able to get out of the purgury charge using a lawyer though....in order to meet the legal definition of purgury, in court, it has to be a lie....and in order to me a lie you have to know about it. A mistake is just that...a mistake., not a lie, and not purgury.
If you can prove you were living outside of the US for that time you might make a case that you never got a court date, and so were unaware that the licence was suspended.
Good luck either way. Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Theaca: Oh, I understand that it is to contest the ticket. But most adults don't have the luxury of taking the time off from work or missing class or finding a babysitter to go to court. Especially since it is just a chance to get out of the ticket, and especially if there might be court costs too. I'm shocked your dad told you not to pay it and I'm not surprised by the result. Or had you not planned on returning to America?
I had not planned on returning to America. Except for brief visits to see family.
And I contested a ticket in California once (for driving too slowly through the mail, and got it kicked.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Kwea: Find that right. I am serious...if you are going to get all worked up about this, when it is really all your own fault, find that right listed in any state, or the Constitution.
Wow. Just... wow. The Constitution doesn't grant us rights. We're born with those. "Endowed by our Creator", remember? The Constitution delineates the limitations and obligations of the government.
If someone passes a law that says I have to keep one eye closed whenever using the computer, the fact that it's a law doesn't make it sane.
quote:Originally posted by Kwea: They paid for the roads...using tax money to be sure, but if you think you have paid even a tenth of the cost of one small road in all your years...even leaving out the years you weren't in the US....then you are wrong. They have the right, and the responsibility to make the rules that help keep us safe...and if you think the rules don't apply to you, guess again.
I paid the ticket. First thing. Immediately after the let me know about it. Not back in 1987, but I'd completely forgotten about it. There's a reason why statutes of limitations exist, you know. It's because it's insane, except in cases of things like big crime, to have such things hanging over your head for your whole life.
I got in touch with Missouri, plowed through their insane court system until I could find someone who would take my money, and paid the friggin' ticket.
What they suspended my license for over a year for was checking a box on the application that said I'd never had my license suspended. Which, to the best of my knowledge, I had not.
See, normally, when you sign at the bottom of a form, it says, "I affirm (or whatever) under penalty of perjury, that I have completed this form truthfully, to the best of my knowledge."
Well, that last phrase isn't applicable here. The law doesn't care if you filled out a form in good faith. They ask you a question, and if your answer is wrong, even if you didn't know, then you get accused of lying and lose your license for a year plus.
So I didn't lose my license for endangering anyone. I lost it because the gods of the bureaucracy lost their minds.
quote:Originally posted by Kwea: You have NO right to drive, nor did you ever have one, what you had a license that showed you had been given the privlige of being allowed to drive.
That's nuts. I don't need permission to walk down the street, and I don't need permission to operate my own vehicle. The fact that they've labeled it a "privilege" doesn't make it so.
quote:Originally posted by Kwea: Providing you follow the law..which you didn't....
You misread the whole thing. I said very clearly up above that they pulled my license for checking the wrong box on a form. Inadvertantly.
I told you that I work for a law firm. Well, when I applied, towards the end of the process, the woman in HR told me that they were going to do a security/background check on me, like they do for everyone they hire. She asked me if there was anything I wanted to tell her ahead of time.
I fidgeted a little, wondering if this was too stupid to mention, and then told her. She laughed her ass off. She wrote down, "License suspended for..." and looked at me quizzically and asked, "What should I write?"
I shrugged and said, "Checking the wrong box on a form?" She laughed again and wrote that down. And called me a week later to offer me the job.
Some people are a teensy bit less self-righteous than you appear to be acting, Kwea.
quote:Originally posted by Kwea: And even now you seem to think that they should care what you think of that "right", and continue to drive illegally, not to mention blaming you FATHER for this, because he gave you bad advice.
Oh, please. I was being sardonic. I don't blame my Dad. He gave me good and appropriate advice. I don't blame my Mom; she had no idea her speedometer was broken. I don't blame the cop; he was just following what his radar gun said.
I blame the friggin' system. I put my social security number on the application. They gave me a license. Had they punched my number in and said, "Wow, you have a suspension", I would said, "Oh, wow." and gone off to take care of it. Instead, they chose to put the question on a form and refuse to understand that I didn't know I was answering it incorrectly.
And to make things worse, I requested a formal hearing. Went to the hearing. They immediately dropped the inane "identity theft" issue, and acknowledged that I couldn't have known about the suspension. In writing, no less. Followed by the comment that ignorance is no excuse. Pardon me, but that's Kafka-esque.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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I'm confused. Why, exactly, doesn't the law apply to you? Nice example you're setting for your kids here. "Obey the laws, guys, unless it's inconvenient or they strike you as unfair."
Please. You're in Chicago, they do have public transportation. It might be annoying as sin to take, but them's the breaks. If you're driving without a license, I hope you're nailed for it.
I'm not saying this isn't annoying as all get out for you, but really, accept some responsibility here and grow up.
Posts: 3243 | Registered: Apr 2002
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sL, According to the best studies to date, people who drive without a valid license are statistically 4x as likely as validly-licensed drivers to cause a fatal crash.
So, as Kafka-esque at it may seem, it also helps states identify the worst of the worst drivers and sanction them severely for driving illegally. Because, as a group, they've earned it.
Statistically, I fear people in your group far more than I fear terrorists. You've joined an elite group of people who are disproportionately destructive of lives and property. You group is responsible for high insurance rates, shattered lives, and vast costs for law enforcement, DMVS, and the courts.
You have been lucky in not being caught driving without a valid license. If you are, the penalties go up and they add time to your suspension. If you think it's a pain now, just wait until after you've been in a crash. Even if the wreck wasn't your fault, no insurance carrier will take you unless the state forces them to.
My advice, again, is to jump through the hoops and be as pleasant as you possibly can. Get it done quickly and with a minimum of complaining and go forth and be a safe driver here on out.
The alternatives are not pleasant and, whether you like it or not, the rest of us are grateful that the government takes charge of licensing and enforcement of traffic laws because the idea of traveling safely on the roads is more important to us than whether we are endowed by our creator with the inalienable right to hurl two-ton automobiles at each other.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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It's like cops and robbers on a grown up scale. You speed, you get caught, and you have to pay a fine. You don't pay the fine, you don't show up at court, you pay another fine with a suspension.
I realize it's annoying and irritating as hell, your whole situation. But I'd have sympathy for you if you took responsibility for your own actions, or inaction. Acknowledging that you made a mistake and trying to make amends for it is harder than you think it should be. That, I could understand.
Hell, one of my friends is currently jumping through the same hoops to get her license reinstanted for not paying a speeding ticket fine. I'd give her crap (well, I have, that's what friends are for), but she says she screwed up and should've paid the fine and realizes that she's paying her dues now.
Another friend was stopped months ago for speeding, got breath tested and was just above the legal limit (she'd had two drinks in the previous two hours). Charged with DUI. She knew she screwed up, angry as hell at herself for not waiting another 15-30 minutes before going home. Got a lawyer, DID get the charged reduced to reckless driving, and happily served her two-month license suspension. She took responsibility for her mistake without blaming everyone else.
I guess I'm saying take responsibility for your mistakes. Then commiserating with you and the current line of flaming hoops you're jumping through would be lots easier.
Posts: 14745 | Registered: Dec 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Bob_Scopatz: sL, According to the best studies to date, people who drive without a valid license are statistically 4x as likely as validly-licensed drivers to cause a fatal crash.
So, as Kafka-esque at it may seem, it also helps states identify the worst of the worst drivers and sanction them severely for driving illegally. Because, as a group, they've earned it.
Statistically, I fear people in your group far more than I fear terrorists. You've joined an elite group of people who are disproportionately destructive of lives and property. You group is responsible for high insurance rates, shattered lives, and vast costs for law enforcement, DMVS, and the courts.
That is seriously the strangest thing I think I've ever heard. I haven't joined any group. Statistics don't work that way. There is, as I'm sure you know, a big difference between correlation and causation. People who drive on invalid licences often had their licenses suspended for DUIs or other acts of violence. That's why there's a correlation between the two.
I got one speeding ticket. One. And for speeding at a velocity that I had solid reason to believe I was not speeding at. Rather than risk fluctuations in speed, I set the car on cruise control during a long ride. There is nothing unsafe about that. On the contrary.
And my license was suspended this past year, not for the ticket, but for making a mistake on a form. Do people who make mistakes on forms, filling in answers they they think are true but unbeknowest to them are not, responsible for deaths?
I can't begin to fathom what you were thinking.
quote:Originally posted by Bob_Scopatz: My advice, again, is to jump through the hoops and be as pleasant as you possibly can. Get it done quickly and with a minimum of complaining and go forth and be a safe driver here on out.
I am a safe driver, Bob. I've been driving for 26 years, and have gotten two traffic tickets. One of which was for driving too slowly on an almost empty and unlit highway in California, which was overturned because the cop who gave it was an idiot. The nonsense I'm going through with the Secretary of State's office has nothing to do with tickets. It has to do with a far worse crime: filling out a form incorrectly.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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(finds it extremely funny that starLisa is telling Bob that "statistics don't work that way" when that is what he does for a living and has a phD .......)
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You realize, of course, that it's your responsibility to know if your speedometer is inaccurate, even if it's not your car, right? Your belief that you weren't breaking the law doesn't change the fact that you were breaking the law. You say that there was nothing unsafe about setting the cruise control, but it is unsafe if you set the cruise control above the speed limit. The fact that you didn't know doesn't let you off the hook.
Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Farmgirl: (finds it extremely funny that starLisa is telling Bob that "statistics don't work that way" when that is what he does for a living and has a phD .......)
That is funny. A statistician confusing correlation and causation? Bet that's never happened before.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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Jon Boy speaks from experience, having gotten a ticket for the exact same reason you did (i.e., cruise control set just a little high when the speedometer was off).
Posts: 1903 | Registered: Sep 2003
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Wait wait wait. You have a license? No? Then you *are* part of that group. If a cop pulls you over and you don't have a license he's not going to think "Huh. Well, maybe she's being screwed by the system." He's going to think, "She's irresponsible and doesn't deserve the privilage of driving. She'll probably get someone killed."
Even if you are a safe driver the cop will only be half wrong.
Posts: 3243 | Registered: Apr 2002
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This is not a problem even remotely related to the confusion of causation with correlation.
By virtue of you being IN the group of people who have higher crash risk, the only thing the state knows about you is that you is that you have now become part of the high-risk subpopulation. And they are treating you accordingly.
And for good reason.
Bad drivers kill. Suspended, revoked and unlicensed drivers are 4x as likely to cause a fatal crash (not just BE in one, CAUSE one). If a society wants to protect itself from killers, it couldn't find a much better place to start than people who drive without a valid license. The only ones who are worse are those who drive drunk.
If you check out the statistics, the #1 cause of death for most age groups in the US is traffic crashes.
And you've placed yourself, by your own misbehavior, into a class of the worst drivers in the country. If the state didn't treat you like you needed to prove your worth as a driver, I'd be amazed and very upset.
Part of being a bad driver is having a bad attitude about obeying laws.
You've not only identified yourself as part of the subpopulation of "suspended drivers" but you've displayed a completely hostile attitude toward the laws that you have violated.
More importantly you are currently driving without a valid license -- at least I'm reading that into what you've posted here.
That is not only illegal, but it places you in the group of suspended drivers who willingly violate the traffic laws and say things like "I'm a good driver."
Face it, you are a scofflaw.
Also, it sort of damages your credibility on the whole terrorism interdiction issue. Even if your current situation is completely unjust, your attitude about terrorists would lead one to suspect that you would have a certain bemused tolerance when caught in the myriad webs society has set up post-9/11. The whole issue of your identity problems would've been as nothing back before 9/11. Now, we treat positive identification seriously and you complain about it. So...sure, as long as terrorism interdiction messes with Palestinian lives, you're fine with it. You break the law and face a few consequences and you whine like a cheap set of rusty bearings.
Get a grip. Go into the DMV. Straighten the mess out. And don't drive until you do get it straightened out.
You may think you're a safe driver, but from a traffic safety perspective, you're in the group that is the 2nd worse safety problem in the US today and you and the other people in your group are responsible for 10x the deaths we experience from terrorists AND insurgents.
And the worst part is, you don't care. Your attitude is that your beliefs about THE LAW are more important the peoples lives that you (as a group) ruin. You say "I'm a good driver." And yet you disobey the most basic law we have -- to drive only when validly licensed.
Take a look in the mirror. Your group is the one that spreads more death in America than terrorists ever have or likely ever will. They look like you. Good people who "made an honest mistake" but who also don't take the law seriously and don't think it applies to them. If you don't think that attitude affects your driving, think again. There's another great study out of California that shows that even people who were suspended for NON-driving offenses (including things like failure to pay child support) are worse drivers than the rest of us.
It's an identification criterion. And it applies to you.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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So, basically, the next time you decide to leave the country, we should all be on the lookout for a crime spree? I mean, apparently, if you think you are about to leave the country permanently, you don't think you have to follow the rules. That's nice to know.
Posts: 9871 | Registered: Aug 2001
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Or, you know, you could forget courage and go for common sense instead and listen to the logic of what everyone is saying...
Posts: 624 | Registered: Mar 2005
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If it makes you feel any better, Lisa, there's this guy named Tom Bailey -- another Objectivist Libertarian -- who hangs out on the Ornery site, has run for Congress, and has been jailed at least twice for driving on a suspended license because he refuses on principle to recognize the government's ability to require him to license his car.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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I do find it sort of odd she proclaims the libertarian title, yet supports the use of oppressive government action against individuals who have not been subject to any sort of judicial judgement or the like.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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What you have to remember is that Bob is Lawful Good, and has taken just a crazy number of ranks in knowledge: traffic safety.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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Noem, you have been playing way too many MPORGs. (Did I spell that right? They're not massive, neh?)
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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Ah. I knew it didn't look quite right. Google was no help - too many geeks can't spell.
But shouldn't it still be Multi-Player Online Roleplaying Game? You seem to be implying that it is Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Farmgirl: (finds it extremely funny that starLisa is telling Bob that "statistics don't work that way" when that is what he does for a living and has a phD .......)
That is funny. A statistician confusing correlation and causation? Bet that's never happened before.
Now you are showing YOUR ignorance....at no point sis he say you were going to do that...what he said was that people who HAVE done the same thing...lose their license, for whatever reason....cause FAR more harm than others.
As a group. Even including people who whine about having the law apply to them. Even including those who only lose their license for traffic violations.
Bob should know, as HE is the one who supplies the DOT with those stats, you know.
I know you lost your license for perjury...hell, I even said that if you sued them (or threatened to...I know that's what I was implying, anyway) you might get that part of it rescinded. By legal definition they are wrong....in order for it to be perjury you have to have LIED.
However, perhaps they don't feel like trusting the word of someone who admits to leaving the country not caring what the rules were...without paying it THEN.
THAT'S the root cause of all this...not your dad, or mom's car, but the fact that you knowingly and willingly blew off this ticket...becasue after all the rules don't apply to YOU, right?
Plain and simple, you don't have the right to drive, hence the licensing process, and for some reason...perhaps the same reason that lead you to believe that you were above the law (because after all it is THEIR fault you were driving too fast, even though it was you behind the wheel and even if the speedometer was right you were speeding with eh full knowledge of it at the time)....you feel as every single state government in the USA is wrong and you are right.
The courts have consistently agreed with the states, btw, as does the the DOT.
Perhaps we should call them and tell them you think they are wrong. Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
That didn't bother me, I do it, most people do it....
But the whole "I have the right to drive illegally" pissed me off.
I belong to the group of people Bob said was #1...I got a DWI on the night of my 29th birthday.
Sure, I thought I had a ride home. Sure, I thought I would be fine. I had not had a drink in 3 hours, after all....Sure, my recollection of that night was different than my friends, but we were all drinking so who knows what really happened....
I chose to drive, end of discussion. I wasn't drunk any more, but I still should have chose to sleep in my car if that was my only option. I had spent my entire life being the designated driver, so I knew better.
I couldn't pass the breath-a-lizor...not because or drink, but because I couldn't get enough good readings in a row to count...I had pneumonia, certified from the doctors and all. Every single reading I did get (you have to get 3 out of 5 attempts, 2 in a row basically, in order for it to count) was BELOW the DUI level let alone the DWI limit...but I couldn't get enough breath to count for the attempts, so they put it down as a failure to comply, meaning I had refused to take the test at all, of all things.
I got out of it with a continued w/o a finding, so technically I am NOT in that group ( ), but still, believe it or not....
It was probably one of the best things that ever happened to me.
I was also unregistered and uninsured, although I didn't know it at the time. I had been pulled over in a friends car...twice...for the same thing. It was HIS car, so why should I be held accountable, right?
Wrong...I was the driver.
I finally figured out that the rules were there for a reason, and that they applied to everyone...me included.
THAT is why listening to her pissed me off...I understood what she meant from the get go, but all the excuses in the world can't hide the fact that SHE is responsible for her actions, and until she realizes it nothing will help her.
I can sympathize with your circumstances. Not being able to drive is an enormous hassle almost anywhere in America, especially if it came suddenly.
But I really don't understand why you're arguing about it. Yes, laws are sometimes Byzantine and contradictory and mangled and hard to understand and yes, people stretch little laws such as speeding all the time, and sometimes an honest mistake on a form can lead to a foul-up disproportionately inconveniencing to the magnitude of the foul-up...
But you got caugh, starLisa. You've broken the law, and you were caught, and the state obligated you to make amends.
Isn't that the end of the story, for a law-abiding citizen who has a fundemental and abiding respect for civilization? It's like the difference between a little white lie and a big whopper. Sure, in my opinion at least if you tell a white lie you're not really a LIAR...but if you're caught in it, `fess up, grin and bear it. The situation is the same here.
What you're doing here more or less is analogous to someone who was caught in a little white lie who weaves ever more elaborate deceptions to avoid admitting it. I don't understand your position of blithely ignoring the law in this situation. I have a difficult time reconciling it with other things you've written, most especially your posts detailing how strictly you adhere to your religious law.
Is that strict adherence only applicable to agreements made with G-d?
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote: Isn't that the end of the story, for a law-abiding citizen who has a fundemental and abiding respect for civilization?
Well, in Lisa's defense, there can be one more step: accept your punishment, and then attempt to have the law changed in the future to prevent this sort of thing.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Jewish Law requires (in most circumstances) that secular laws be followed: Dina d'malchuta dina.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:Jewish Law requires (in most circumstances) that secular laws be followed: Dina d'malchuta dina.
Thanks rivka,
I was wondering about that after comparing sL's uncompromising views on interfaith marriage to her views on secular responsibilty/laws as seen in her chosen ignorance of the penalty for ingoring a ticket.
I'm glad to see that she is simply a reflection of herself and not a reflection of Judaism in general.
I'll continue to look to you as a much more interesting and accurate example of the Jewish faith.
Posts: 2425 | Registered: Jan 2002
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