My kids love to play with the next door neighbors, but a few things make it difficult. One, they have a new baby, which makes things hard sometimes. Two, they are home-schooled, but never seem to be done with schoolwork when my kids are home. Three, they are not allowed to come over here and play anymore (I suspect) so it always has to be over there.
The last time the boys went over to play was yesterday, for maybe 15 minutes. That seemed to be fine. THe time before that, there was a problem, though.
We have started the kids doing some simple meditation. Just the 'sit still and think about breathing' type of thing. Liam was always a bit hyper, but starngely enough, he has taken to it really well. His focus and attentiveness has improved because of it. His martial arts instructor even asked me if we had put him on medication. In short, it has been very good for him.
Robert, who is naturally still and tends to be more creative and cerebral, doesn't like it much. Though wer have seen improvements in his attititude that correlate with the meditation, it has yet to show the kind of improvement we were hoping for. He tends to be very negative about everything. He has a bit of homework and soon he's shreiking, "I hate my life!" or "I wish I'd never been born."
Anyway, he tends to ape 'meditation' for laughs, and we're fine with that. I think mack even got a picture of him doing it for attention on a hike we did together. Anyway, last week he was playing on the neighbors' trampoline, and decided to sit on the thing in a meditation pose. I believe he did this for laughs. The little girl he's friends with told him that "meditation is praying to the devil."
Now, I have tried to be careful about respecting the neighbor's beliefs, because I don't want to be the sort of person who attacks people for their beliefs. I hope you guys here know that. I mean, at Wenchcon, I tried to make it possible for my Jewish friends to keep kosher and for my Mormon buddies to get to services.
My neighbors are Baptists. I was once a Baptist, so I understand that their attempts at tracting us and so forth are based on the belief that if they don't win us over, we'll burn in hell. I've tried to see it as springing from a place of caring about our immortal souls, even if we see them as being somewhat misguided.
I'm very close to forbidding my boys to play with them, even though it would be somewhat redundant at this point.
I've put up with a LOT. I mean, they weren't allowed to be here if the tV was on, because once they saw a little of PeeWee's Playhouse. There have been a few social overtures made by the mom, and I like her. I made them a cake when they came home with the new baby (I offered a dinner, but the church was taking care of them, so they didn't need my heathen speghetti).
I admit, I reacted badly to this one third party who played over there and called me to come get Liam because he'd hit her ( the third party's) little boy. Thing is, the boy was telling Liam to go away, that no one wanted to play with him, etc. Plus, it was over a year ago. I was coming to get them for martial arts anyway, and told them not to be chasing my cats. they said they were just chasing their cat, in my yard. Which was probably true.
The husband has given me books on Baptist childrearing, the implication being that we're bad parents. The wife has also loaned me tapes on sibling rivalry (which was considerably less insulting, I admit). They told me of a girl in their church who asked her mother, "Where do YOU want me to go to college? What do you think I should study?" as an example of an obedient child. O_O I was honestly mortified by the idea of raising a child to adulthood that would abdecate such personal decisions entirely to their parents. That was... scary.
We invited the girls to Robert's birthday party. We had an inflatable water slide in the front yard. They came out in their swimsuits, loaded up in their truck and went to the pool. Right when my son thought they were coming over, they turned and left. He wasn't invited to her birthday party (the parents just had another family over, and kept it very small), though they did send us some leftover cake, and let the boys play over there for a few minutes.
Maybe I'm not the best parent ever, but we're trying. When something like this happens, I just want to cry. We used to get along so well. Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
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Livvy, you're doing what's right for your kids. You can't help, um, non-mainstream responses to it.
We had some extreme Baptist neighbors who used to give out Chicktracts on Halloween when we trick-or-treated at their house (with a little bit of candy-- to make it go down easier, I guess.)
I didn't babysit their daughters even though I babysat everyone else on the street because "It's God's plan for their mother to take care of them, and she shouldn't leave them"-- when she had to for a church function, they went to the nursery at the church. (I guess I could accept that one as a personal belief, but it's an example of how extreme they were.)
Then they stopped even talking to us, because their pastor told them not to "associate with the unsaved". (We went to church every week, just not their church.)
*sigh* It was hard. But when we started to condemn them, my mom told us, "They are just practicing their religion. You don't have to agree with it, and frankly, I don't think that's what Christianity is about. But you need to respect it, and sometimes the best way to do that is just by leaving them alone to do their own thing and not taking offense if they hurt your feelings."
So we tried, and pretty soon they moved away-- the area was too "heathen" for them, apparently.
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Thanks kq - I think with Katrina and allthis stuff going on, I'm just ... sensitive. It's hard to see your kids rejected because of your beliefs, or lack thereof.
ScottR, I don't remember how he got them started, but they have little mats they sit on. We also make them do it when the fight with each other. It works better than sending them to their rooms.
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That made me so sad, Livvie. From my perspective, the "not having the schoolwork" done is an excuse. From time to time, maybe, they would have to require one of the kids to finish up before they played, but not every time your boys are home. Refusing the food boggles my mind. That's what freezers are for, and I took all the heathen spaghetti I could get.
If she really thinks you're too heathen to associtae with she should level with you and then your kids won't have the repeated dissapointments.
Totally OT, but; you mean I don't have the only child who does this?
quote: He has a bit of homework and soon he's shreiking, "I hate my life!" or "I wish I'd never been born."
posted
Yeah, Robert is quite the dramatist. He even took to saying "I want to kill myself" but we told him that people who say that get sent to hospitals, because it's really, really bad to talk about hurting yourself. He backed off that a bit.
Honestly, I'm sure I could be a better neighbor. I just feel like things are damaged between us, but the only thing that has really changed is their increased knowledge of our religious beliefs. It was better when they thought we were merely backslidden. Now they know it is a choice we made.
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quote:(I offered a dinner, but the church was taking care of them, so they didn't need my heathen speghetti).
You know, in our church ward, they are pretty good about getting meals to a new parent for the first little while. She may genuinely not have needed it since she already had dinners coming in, and she might not have felt comfortable asking for a rain check.
Though in my experience, after having a baby there are certainly times a month later when a dinner from a neighbor would be most welcome.
Other than that, I've dealt with "crazy Christians" a few times myself. My best friend's Mom told me I went to the church of the devil, and while I was allowed to go with my friend to church youth activities, she was not allowed to come along to mine. They would give my mom books and tapes to listen to, and wouldn't accept the same in return. Their group was extremely insular and suspicious of "outsiders", and her mother was extremely controlling. I felt sorry for this friend of mine. Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Then they stopped even talking to us, because their pastor told them not to "associate with the unsaved".
What an absolutely bizarre thing for a pastor to say. I'm almost speechless. Makes me wonder if the guy actually reads the Bible.
Olivet, that's unfortunate. I'll lay down a buck fifty that at least one of their daughters will get pregnant before she's married. I'd recommend you get them Love and Logic's audio tape called "Helicopters and Drill Sargeants". That should put a bee in their Sunday go-to-meetin' bonnets.
Posts: 5948 | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Then they stopped even talking to us, because their pastor told them not to "associate with the unsaved". --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What an absolutely bizarre thing for a pastor to say. I'm almost speechless. Makes me wonder if the guy actually reads the Bible.
Yeah. They were, as I said, pretty extremist. Bordering on "not-actually-associated-with-mainstream-Baptists". Like, they didn't go to any of the five or six local Baptist churches; they drove two hours each way to one that espoused their particular beliefs.
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I have trouble comprehending this kind of extremism in a positive light. It just goes into the "Intolerance" category, along with things like the KKK. Although perhaps that's me being guilty of intolerance myself, which I try to avoid.
I'm sorry your kids are having to deal with this, Olivet, and you as well.
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quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: The nasty evil part of me would send the boys over to borrow a cup of chicken blood.
Heehee I would also be extremely tempted to mess with their heads...alas, that probably would not be the best example to set for your kids.
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To deal with people who think you worship the devil is qute easy.
Walk into their front yard carrying a thoroughly scary looking knife and a dead goat, place the goat on the doorstep, walk three times counterclockwhise around the goat muttering "Barbara Streisand"
They will not trouble you again.
Posts: 242 | Registered: Feb 2005
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Weeeeell, Ron DID kind of mess with the little girl's head, and I think it may have been the last time she ever came over. She was trying to witness to him. It went something like this:
Girl: Mr. Ron, do you believe in Jesus?
Ron: (using Spanish pronounciation) Yeah, I know Jesus. He used to be my neighbor. He's a roofer.
Girl: No, I mean the Jesus who died--
Ron: Jesus is dead! What happened? Did he fall off a roof? *gets out his cell phone and pretends to dial*
Girl: No, he was the son of God and--
Ron: Hello, Jesus? You alright, man? There's this little girl here who said you died...
And so forth. The girl was beside herself, and I finally put a stop to it. It probably totally traumatized the girl. She really loves Mr. Ron, and I expect she's been in tears before, worried about him going to hell. Ron doesn't think so. Maybe I am over reacting by assuming that.
But maybe not having them over to play is a small price to pay for not having to deal with that kind of thing.
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I don't know, when I had this problem with my neighbors, I just stopped praying to the Devil*. Cleared the whole situation right up. Have you tried that, Olivet?
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* - I still go to Black Mass on Evil Christmas and anti-Easter though. It's more cultural than anything else really.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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What we need is an evangelical liberal christian church that is not afraid to save those mis-saved.
What we need is a evangelical humanist organization, rife with our own chick-like tracts for the not very discerning, and televised crusades for those requiring leadership 24/7.
Liberal agnostic thought has been, "leave these people to their own faith." The fact that their faith requires them to convert us is treated with intolerance, or condecension, or confusion. Why?
Perhaps because we believe that what they believe and how they believe it is wrong. Just as wrong as they believe our beliefs are.
So what do we do about it? In more barbaric times and places, the person with the biggest mob would decide which religion would be practiced by all.
We have taken tolerance to be our cornerstone, tolerating things we believe is wrong.
There has to be a middle ground.
Why don't we try as hard to convert those who disagree with us, as they are trying to convert us? We won't use schools or governments or the public media to do this conversion. Instead we dress in nice clothes and go door to door, handing out free literature.
I know this one church has had great success with that trick.
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Yeah, I was thinking that myself. I mean, how old is she? Doing that to an adult--funny. To a child--tasteless.
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Actually, I'm not wishing it on her at all. I'm making a comment on the parenting technique that involves total bubblewrapping of the child. That audio tape I recommended punches holes in the theory that if you totally protect a child (either by rescuing them or dominating them) you are being a good parent.
How much do you want to bet that their view of sex education is going to be limited to "wait until you get married or Very Bad Things May Happen"?
edited for clarity
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This wouldn't be so hard for me if they were jerks. They aren't jerks. I know they have come to look upon us either as a bad influence or a ... sort of Sunday School project.
But the truth is that they are good people and I DON'T want to antagonize them or alienate them.
The bottom line is that I'm hurting, and not sure how to protect my children and myself from further heartache. I'm pretty sure I can't.
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posted
They are good people who are acting like jerks in the fashions and at the times you have listed. We all act like jerks from time to time.
I'm afraid that you are probably right. You can't like someone and be protected from being hurt by them, because liking someone ipso facto means you are vulnerable to being hurt by them. I definitely know that the depth with which I have hurt people is in direct proportion to how much they care about me.
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Does that mean that I don't care about you, or that you just haven't gotten around to hurting me yet? Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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A very sweet thing to say KQ, but yes, basically you haven't spent enough time with me to really give me the opportunity to be offensive yet Posts: 3846 | Registered: Apr 2004
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To be honest, Ron was always teasing the kids (theirs and ours) by being silly and making up silly stories about the Tooth Beaver, and how kids have tails or some crap like that. I don't think he realized she was being serious, because she was also laughing at him at while he was joking around.
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I hated it when adults refused to be straight with me when I was a little kid. I could usually tell that they were making stuff up, but I simply didn't have a broad enough base of information to be able to tell what was true and what was a lie. I remember that I had an uncle who tried to convince me that I could turn on the TV and change channels by touching a statuette that they had on an endtable. I knew he was lying to me, but I couldn't figure out how he was changing the channel (tv remotes weren't common at that point, and I'd never seen one). He insisted that it was the statuette, kept on with this for quite a while, and never did tell me the truth about it. I quite literally hated him for that.
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Olivet – Talk to them directly. Tell them that their daughter told your son he was “praying to the devil,” and that you were hurt by that. Point out that just because you don’t share their specific beliefs does not make you devil worshippers and that you would appreciate them clarifying that with their child. If they bring up meditation, refer to the list I posted earlier.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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Olivet, dkw's got the right idea. If they really aren't jerks and are just nice people who've gotten a bet over zealous, then talking with them should smooth things out. I'd tell them that you understand that their tracting you etc. is our of concern for your souls and that you have appreciated that concern even though you don't agree with their religious views. Then tell them that recently they and their children have gone to far and that what they are doing is hurting your children.
If they really aren't jerks, I suspect that they will listen and then try harder to be non-judgemental of your family.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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These neighbors are being like the Pharisees. I know that there are people like this in most fundamental churches, but the crazy thing is that they get made fun of even by the other fundamentalists. They are truly the weaker brother. It’s such a shame that they aren’t more open and friendly. One of the reasons I don’t like labels. I go to a fundamental Baptist church, but know that almost all of our members would disagree with your neighbor’s behavior. Sorry that your children are going through this.
Posts: 2845 | Registered: Oct 2003
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I reckon being direct would work, but the problem is not much can be done if this is what they believe... But it sort of... bothers me as that doesn't fit my concept of Christianity, but then again, I am not that conservative. I have relatives sort of like that. They see the Devil in EVERYTHING and are SDA instead of Baptist.
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Okay, that link scared me, but not in the way, I think, that it was suposed to. I really have abslutly no problem telling people that they are being stupid and narrow-minded, but it looks like you do, so no advice there.
Posts: 1332 | Registered: Apr 2005
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Pelegius, if you're talking about the Chick Tract links, I understand how you feel. I was specifically disturbed by the first one, which so brazenly rejects the idea that "good people go to heaven, while bad people go to hell" in favor of "WE go to heaven and YOU go to hell". Salvation by allegiance has never sat right with my conscience ...
Posts: 1539 | Registered: Jul 2004
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Puppy I like you point but…….. (Not to throw everything off track here and I apologize if this offends anyone. I truly don’t mean for it to) What about the thief on the cross?
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Jay, what does that have to do with anything? That wasn't salvation by allegiance, that was redemption by belief.
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That one track with the girl named Buffy who's mom loves to watch all those "vampire shows". Hmmmm. Do you think Jack was eluding to something?
I was amused how in the Buffyverse no self-respecting creature of the night would go out on Halloween. It's a day for posers.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:I hated it when adults refused to be straight with me when I was a little kid.
Me. too.
And I still dislike it, because people still do it. I guess I look like I need to have jokes made about what I say .
Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003
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Yeah--I hear ya, Noemon and Teshi. My parents were always straight with us, never even used sarcasm. So when I encountered adults that thought that was the fun way to relate to children, they had me so confused I didn't know which way was up. I tended to avoid those grown-ups, because they made me uncomfortable.
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First, Meditation is awesome. I learned most of what I know from my Karate Sensei who is also LDS, and he had even themed most of the studying around LDS doctrine. This was cool, and I think I should have stuck to it, but it was during a time that well, I wasn't that interested in any doctrine but what I wanted to think about.
Talk directly to them about it. Then try to understand them, even if they won't try to understand you. You apparently have more background in common with them than I. You may be able to connect with them on that sort of a level. Overall, be you and have your children be themselves. No one is perfect, most everyone is trying to be somewhat better.
Things like this are sad, children need relationships. It's really sad to me that people won't get along with each other because they aren't exactly the same. Not that I'm a perfect example of this, but I try to get along with most people.
It's better to teach your kids how to handle and understand the situation before they are gone from the nest, rather than force them to not do things they want to, only to later have to relearn what you tried to force down them.
posted
Well, I hate it when Ron tries to pull a fast one on me, but I know his "tell". He cannot lie to me - he just can't.
What bothers me is that he sometimes doesn't set the record straight afterward, because he knows I will. I tell him, "Your children don't believe a word you say" and he thinks it's funny. But he does tell the absolute best beddtime stories ever.
The kids will ask me about anything Dad says that they deem questionable, because they know I won't lie to them. They hear me groan when he tells a big one. Like the time he told them about the 'Jesus Christ Lizard' who walks on water. There was silence, and then Robert said, "Mom?"
I told him that one was pretty much true, though the lizard in question really ran on water, and was more often called by other names.
About meditation... I find it difficult to empty my mind, so I sympathize with Robert. I find a sort of 'moving meditation' easier. I did tell Robert he could use his meditation time to pray, if he'd rather do that. I find prayer (the way I learned the concept of 'praying in the Spirit' as opposed to 'praying with understanding') to be very similar in effect to meditation. Though I admit I'm more than a little fuzzy on exactly who or what I'm praying to, I suppose we all have our different mental images of God.
Jay... I believe these people are doing their best to raise their family according their beliefs. They are not bad people. They went up in my estimation recently when they left the Baptist Megachurch ( http://www.fbcw.org/ ) which has plenty of busses to take people from the distant reaches of their extended parkinglot, but never seemed to spare one for a route to pick up people in the poorer neighborhoods, to a much smaller church where the pastor is dedicated to helping the poor and 'unchurched'.
I am the first to admit that a lot of exposure to my husband can lead one to question one's beliefs (wooboy!) so I'm not surprised that they would want to limit their kid's exposure to him. I bet they went home once with the story of "Jesus Claus" , and flames shot out their parents' ears.
Ron is playful, but he is also not as respectful of other people's sacred cows as I am.
So I don't think they are bad people. They've never used Chick Tracts, and I believe they are fairly mainstream. I like them. But I don't like them, too. Mostly because they make feel like I'm a bad parent, when I am really doing my best. (Liam got a note sent home yesterday for spelling A S S over and over while waiting in line. I know he picked this up from his older brother, who knows he's not supposed to use certain words he has recently learned, but will spell them just to see how close he can get to the line without going over. So I'm thinking we may have to move our line...).
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