posted
Someone made a comment in the "Bush Rejects" thread to the effect that "Thanks to Bush, the United States is now reviled worldwide."
That's a pretty bold statement. A lot of people are saying it these days, but repetition doesn't make it any less bold, so forgive me if I'm a little skeptical. I know that not everyone loves us. We're an easy target for hatred and resentment, especially when we flex our military muscles, and we've faced a lot of ill will from a lot of countries for a very long time now. People don't like the overwhelming ubiquity of our culture, they don't think it's fair that we've got such a monopoly on world power, and corrupt foreign leaders hate what we stand for.
What I'm skeptical about is the idea that the Bush administration has singlehandedly flushed our nation's reputation down the toilet for good. Like everyone loved us before, but now EVERYONE hates us, and it's all Bush's fault. That's basically what his opponents are saying.
Bull crap.
1. Most of the people who hate us have hated us for a very long time. They just have a new thing to complain about.
2. Most people are smart enough to know the difference between "America" and "Bush". We don't exactly hide the fact that we change leaders every four to eight years. Foreign leaders who hate our country's recent decisions know who to pin their accusations on, and it isn't you or me.
3. I live inside the United States, so I can't verify this personally, but I get the impression that the vitriol we hear from outspoken detractors of out country is hardly universal. The only countries where it IS universal are the ones with a state-controlled press, and I'm sorry, but it's hard for me to take their opinions too seriously
This whole "everyone hates us" idea, more than anything, feels like an attempt to manipulate American popular opinion. "Ooh, other countries think I'm a loser. I'd better do what they want, I don't want to be uncool."
I know we need to deal with diplomatic reality, and I'm not impressed at all with the way the administration has spun this war on the foreign stage. But for crying out loud, this isn't the end of the world.
[ September 24, 2003, 11:27 AM: Message edited by: A Rat Named Dog ]
Posts: 1907 | Registered: Feb 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
I wouldn't say that the whole world hates the US. I would say that many countries are critical of our policies and/or apparent values. That really more a guess, though, as I don't have insight into the popular opinions in many other countries (of the three I can think of, two like us and one is critical but doesn't hate us).
quote:Foreign leaders who hate our country's recent decisions know who to pin their accusations on, and it isn't you or me.
This may or may not be true, but bear in mind that there is a big difference between the leaders of a country and the citizens of a country.
Posts: 4534 | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Also, it is not as if we have been saints before Bush either. Yes, citizens of other countries can tell the difference between Bush and America, but Bush will get them thinking about the other stuff. I do not believe we are universally reviled, but I do believe we are heading in that direction. Not sure how fast. Lots of citizens supported the Iraqi war too.
Posts: 1364 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I don't think that Bush has done permenant damage to the US's reputation abroad, but I do think that he's robbed his administration--and the country, so long as he is in power--of its credibility on the world stage by not admitting why he actually wanted to invade Iraq. If something were to happen during Bush's tenure that truly did require a multilateral military soloution, and the US found itself in the position of needing to convince the rest of the world that this were so, I think that the US would be severly handicapped in rallying the rest of the world to its banner. Don't you?
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Maybe I'm being over simplistic, but I thought that before 9/11 we weren't particularly liked either. Why? Because we are one of the wealthiest nations in history. Even in our own wealthy country we love to dislike the "rich". And we often stereotype all rich people to be arrogant even if they probably aren't any worse than the general population, it is just the "bad apples" that get more press. Why should it be any different anywhere else? I think things are just going back to the pre 9/11 status, and if we thought the 9/11 goodwill was going to last we weren't good students of either history or human nature.
posted
At least we allow the freedom of the press to tell us how much we are reviled. Not that I don't find it annoying. Today Tim Russert talked about how we went to war alone. Hello! If Bush lied to set up the war, then it was not alone. If he went to war alone, then he didn't lie to get people into it.
So, what are you calling Bush's real reasons?
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Geoff put it better than I probably could in a thread a week or two ago. I'm searching for it pooka.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Geoff, I'm not finding your thread. Do you by any chance have what you wrote in it saved someplace, or would you be able to find the thread? I found what you said to be one of the best thought out and best written examinations of the subject that I'd seen.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
quote: The Iraq Excuses. Seriously, people need to say what they mean. We didn't go to Iraq because of the sudden emergence of WMDs. We went to Iraq because September Eleventh forced us into a paradigm shift. Suddenly, an enemy half a world away was as dangerous as an enemy right on our borders. We had to finish the job we started in 1991, because if we didn't, Saddam Hussein had the money, the connections, the motivation, and now the inspiration to really hurt us. He didn't NEED weapons of mass destruction. All he NEEDED was a little creativity, and maybe a box cutter or two. A bit of fertilizer, some pipe, and some rednecks to deliver it. But ever making excuses, our politician friends built this huge house of cards justifying the war in Iraq with dubious reports of WMDs, only to watch it crash around them when no weapons were found. If they'd said what they meant from the beginning, this wouldn't be an issue.
This explanation feels right to me, in terms of what Bush was thinking in advocating a war with Iraq.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
As far as Canada is concerned, about half of us find even your Democrats to be too conservative, but we don't "revile" you. We do get mad at you from time to time, though.
Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
"If Bush lied to set up the war, then it was not alone. If he went to war alone, then he didn't lie to get people into it."
There's a third possibility: Bush lied to set up the war, but it didn't work as well as he'd hoped; he persuaded other Americans, but didn't do such a good job with other countries.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
I think it is accurate to say that countries are upset with our government right now, not necessarily America itself.
However, an election is coming up. If Bush gets reelected, now that we know these are his policies, I suspect they will rightly shift that blame onto the American people.
The opinion polls don't lie though. Popular support of America in many areas of the globe is dropping significantly.
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
This is just anecdotal, but a few months ago my wife happened to be around quite a few Europeans from Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Italy, and the Ukrane. All of them, at one time or another, expressed surprise that she didn't toe Bush's line; they were all of the impression that US citizens were pretty much behind Bush 100%. They all said that that was the way we were protrayed by the media in their countries. Just goes to show, I suppose, that there are people everywhere who unthinkingly accept what their media feeds them.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
Seriously though, Kama, is there a general opinion about the US shared by most Poles? Do most Poles assume that the US citizenry is supportive of Bush, such that an action on Bush's part can be thought of as an action on the part of the US people?
How is all of this being portrayed by the Polish media?
Ginette, if you happen into this thread, how is this playing in the Netherlands?
The government (and, naturally, the media ) are very supportive of America. The ordinary people much less so. Bush does not have a too high opinion on the street, and neither have the recent American actions. One thing to consider, though, is that people are very much dissappointed with our own government - so its support for America is regarded differently than it probably would be, were the government more liked be the people. At least, i think so.
Most people thought that sending American troops to Iraq was a bad idea; sending our own troops is generally regarded as an even worse and stupid one. The poeple are of the opinion that we (as a state) are being exploited and used, and that the government is really stupid for thinking this will be of any advantage to Poland.
[ September 24, 2003, 02:19 PM: Message edited by: Kama ]
Posts: 5700 | Registered: Feb 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
If an American were to visit your home town, what would people generally assume about their political views, and personality?
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Of course, the last post didn't really answer your question. Silly Kama. I don't know. I don't think we think Americans blindly follow Bush. This isn't really discussed much, though. I suppose we have enough experience in distrusting the authorities not to be easily convinced that someone is doing the exact opposite. If this makes any sense. I guess the Poles think you all have your own opinions, just that they don't matter much on the political scene. Dunno.
[the above is an answer to Noemon's previous post. Noemon is too fast]
[ September 24, 2003, 02:30 PM: Message edited by: Kama ]
Posts: 5700 | Registered: Feb 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Well, that makes sense. I was really shocked by the assumptions made by that group I mentioned above.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Why any country should expect to have fans in another country is beyond me. Other than China during the Clinton years.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
At the risk of violating my own policy of avoiding political threads, I'll throw in a couple cents worth of thoughts.
If there is a low opinion of the American public in many countries, could it just be that they are no better or worse than we are at overgeneralizing?
Just a couple weeks ago, a poll claimed that approximately 70% of Americans believed Saddam had a direct hand in the 9/11 attacks. This forced some serious disclaimers from the Bush administration, especially when Dick Cheney didn't seem bothered by the apparent widely-held misconception.
Other than Cheney, the administration reps took pains to point out they never said Saddam was involved with 9/11. True - they just kept uttering al-Qaeda, terrorism, and Saddam in the same sentences. People jumped to conclusions. Reasonable ones. Reasonable, if you didn't just listened to the mantra over and over and didn't question it too much. (yeah - this is the edited part)
I doubt the press is any better or worse in many European countries than it is here. They have a certain set of biases though and probably delight in highlighting items like the widespread beliefs about Saddam and 9/11.
And please let's not forget that when French leaders stonewalling the Bush administration in its efforts to get U.N. endorsement of the Iraq invasion, Congress eliminated "French" from its menu and put in "freedom" fries and toast. And many Amercan eateries followed suit.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that stereotyping and villainizing "the other" is a popular game - we don't like it when we're the ones on the receiving end. Who does?
S'all - gonna go look for some fluff threads.
(edited to try and make sure I really said what I meant to say.)
posted
>> If an American were to visit your home town, what would people generally assume about their political views, and personality? <<
In the complex of student townhouses where my friends and I live, there's one townhouse with an American flag flying outside it this term. There's no Canadian flag flying next to it at equal or greater height, so I feel safe in assuming more than a few things about the views of the people who dwell inside. Once already this term I've walked past them sitting on their porch and have been hard-pressed to refrain from commenting.
Even if one or more of them is actually from America, it's pretty obvious that the occupants of the townhouse are trying to make a statement with their American flag outside and American flag pillow in the window. It strikes me as nose-thumbing, really, and it makes me kind of sad to see it.
Speaking of flag statements, I keep meaning to buy a full-size Palestinian flag and hang it either on my wall or in my window. I should really do that.
Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Twinky-- you'd be suprised to see how many flags of other nations are flown from front porches all over the U.S. Not to mention the bumper stickers, hood ornaments, etc. . .
I think that most folks here value the idea of ethnic/cultural identity-- as long as it doesn't get in the way of patriotism, or defending your new home.
It's odd that Americans are not afforded the same courtesy abroad. . . :musing:
[ September 24, 2003, 06:48 PM: Message edited by: Scott R ]
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Twinky, what is it about our Democrats that you believe is too conservative? I've heard statements like this from time to time from Canadians and Europeans and I find it baffling--it's as if you were saying Rush Limbaugh wasn't conservative enough.
Posts: 1041 | Registered: Feb 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
If they are from the U.S., what flag do you think they should be flying? I don't think that most Americans fly their flags in order to put down anyone else as much as they do to show pride in their origins....my car has a U.S. flag on the antenna, but it also has a County Wexford bumper sticker representing Jenni's Irish heratige.
It doesn't mean that we support the IRA, or the English goverment, or that we know much about their politics....
Maybe you should care a little less about what flag they fly, unless they get in your face about it. After all, what if they are from the U.S.; it wouldn't make a lot of sense to fly anything else, just because you were offended by their nationality....or even by their politics...
Why did you have to bite back comments, did they start preaching at you? According to you, they were just sitting their, but somehow that almost entitled you to comment on veiws that you ASSUMED they had.....what is that flag meant something different to them than you thought it did? Just don't hang a poster of Osama bin Laden in your window, ok?
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Laugh]](graemlins/laugh.gif)
Kama![[Confused]](confused.gif)
![[Dont Know]](graemlins/dontknow.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
