posted
Feeling slightly shamed that this is the second thread I've started in less than 10 minutes, but I've been meaning to ask about this.
My husband, myself, and Boy Opera (he's 9) can all be described as agnostics. Operaetta (age 6) would be described, I think, as a Christian. Mr. Opera and I have always been very open about religion and have always explained that some people believe this way, some people that way, etc. and have basically left it up to the kids. They know we're open to any sort of questions they have.
Operaetta has been wanting to say grace before dinner and often makes comments that we need to go to church. We've told her she's welcome to say her own grace and that we will be quiet while she does so. I've also explained that our own nightly tradition of listing positive things about our day is a kind of grace, just not one that involves God.
She ends up not saying grace. This makes me feel bad. I don't want her to feel weird about it; everyone has their own spiritual path to follow and I truly believe that a 6 year old can have a spiritual path. I also don't know what to do about the church issue. We're not close to any family/friends that she could attend with, and to tell you the truth I'm very leery of organized religion. But, I don't want to impose my own beliefs here. Any ideas? Thanks.
posted
My parents always let me try out any church I wanted to go to; usually I went with friends from my class and Brownies. (I did attend church regularly with my parents, but my mom took us to the Presbyterian church, my dad to a Catholic church, and most of my friends either attended the Baptist, Methodist, or Episcopalian churches. I ended up LDS. Go figure.)
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posted
Tom, I have a feeling you and my husband could get together and have a good chat about where she got it from. She has a grandmother who...umm...thinking...is basically a Jesus freak. The kids don't see her often, but they did visit with her recently. Normally after visits we have to "de-Godify" my daughter, as Mr. Opera puts it. The kids normally only see her 1-2 times per year.
space opera
edit: She does talk about it between visits, though. It's just really flared back up again recently.
[ November 30, 2004, 04:39 PM: Message edited by: Space Opera ]
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posted
What would you do if she were interested in soccer, or joining a writing class, or some other interest that wasn't shared by other members of your family? Whatever you'd do in those cases, do that at least.
If nothing else I'd take her to Sunday School at a local church. You can drop her off there -- talk to the teacher first -- and pick her up an hour later. Then talk to her about what she thought about it.
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posted
Wow. That's interesting. I also would like to know where the requests come from - if they are coming from a friend of hers, maybe she can go with that friend?
Okay, I have to be honest. I think that's one of the sweetest stories I've ever heard. I think...I think that if she wants to say grace, then maybe an organized bit of silence? If not church, maybe there are some books for her?
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posted
I'm really sort of... wow! You see, that's quite a pickle. One thing you might consider is setting aside your own aversion to organized religion long enough to attend church with her a few times. If you are still very uncomfortable, you can deal with it then. If you find a church you are comfortable with, then you can almost certainly make arrangements for her to attend without you, and you would drop her off and pick her up on Sundays just like any other school day.
However, as someone who, in his churchgoing days, helped with the "ministry" for people her age, I can assure you that "finding her own spiritual path" will not be what is going on in sunday school. I cringe when I think of the indoctrinating influence I had on those children.
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posted
I imagine a 6-year-old needs parental support one way or the other. If she wants to say grace, she probably wants help doing it or at least your acknowledgment of the act by the attention you give her. Having to do it herself, quietly, probably adds up to a lack of permission and therefore support.
But that's unfounded child psychology with a religious bias, so take it as you will. Posts: 5957 | Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
Oh, also, have you considered taking her to an Ashram (if there's one in your area)? They respect all religions and learn about all kinds of things. Also consider a Unitarian church. I've never been, but I've heard that they're Christian, but more about letting you worship in the way you see fit. (Of course, I, being LDS, do believe that the correct church for her to attend is ours, but I think it's a good idea for her to go to any church with someone she knows to explore her beliefs in a safe environment.)
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posted
Also, I'm twenty years old with not so much as a girlfriend, much less a child, so I know absolutely nothing about which I speak when it comes to parenting advice. Don't even know why I posted in this thread, come to think of it. I am fascinated by that dilemma, though.
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posted
Well, here's a question: do you believe that belief in a false religion is any more harmful than belief in an imaginary friend? I'd treat it the same way, although it's worth noting that this kind of play-pretend will receive more societal support than talking to an invisible rabbit, so it may be harder for her to grow out of it later.
Have you discouraged a belief in Santa Claus?
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posted
Hmm. What about helping her learn a short, memorized table grace? Six seems a little young for extemporaneous prayer without a family background in it.
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If the her spiritual influence is so strong that her identity is shaping at 6, I don't think you can undo it.
I think you are doing the right thing. You are the parent. You are setting the tone in your house according to your value system. You are respecting her right to pray.
As far as going to church, I--meaning me, not just giving advice to you--would say no. I would say, I do not believe in organized religion. When you get older (8, 10, 12, 18, whenever you feel comfortable for her to go alone), I will support your decisions. Explain why, and leave it at that.
If you want to check out churches, that is great; but I don't think you are required to in order to be a good parent.
If she has a friend who is religious, and you respect the friend’s family, you can give her permission to go to church with the friend.
I like that you are honest, sticking to your values, and not degrading your child’s beliefs/needs.
With that open (yet structured) environment, I would not be afraid of stunting her growth.
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posted
I actually walked over to a local congregational church when I was six, without my parents knowledge, and attended sunday school for quite some time.
Actually, I think my parents still don't know. I should ask my dad.
Huh. I'd totally forgotten about that. Thanks, Space Opera (and p.s. email me).
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posted
You might actually enjoy going to a Unitarian Universalist Church. A lot of atheist/agnostics go there, and I've heard of congregations that are mostly non-theist. They are by far the least preachy of religions, that I know of.
Christopher Reeve (an atheist) had just started going to one before he died. He said it helped him find a "moral compass."
I tend to think that religion serves certain companionship and community needs that people have that aren't related to theism. When's the last time you heard of an "atheist charity?" Since atheism is defined by what it is not, it has very little motivating force. So some people look for clubs or other organizations to belong to, so they can do something positive.
Believe it or not, there are actually atheist churches as well. The North Texas church of freethought is one.
You can also look for secular humanist organizations, but it may be harder to convince your daughter that she is "in church," since most people will probably scoff at the term.
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posted
Having been more-or-less permanently grouped with Tom on the religious threads, I would suggest two things:
1. Let her go to church and explore the different faiths. Maybe try a Sunday school at different faiths, if they accept non-members.
2. Encourage her to think and question what she learns. It may be a bit much for a six year old, but you might as well start talking about what you believe and why so she has the opportunity to form her own opinion without being influenced either way.
That said, I realize it's difficult to hold analytical discussions with six year olds and they're as likely to play with an invisible bunny as to understand the finer points of "why Grandma believes in God and we don't...sort of."
But I also think encouraging her to explore and to challenge what she sees and hears is a good practice that will serve her well later in life.
Although her teenage years will be absolute Hell for the two of you.
posted
Yeah, Tom, I think there's a huge difference there. People are expected to at some point give up belief in imaginary friends and Santa Claus. Religion isn't intended as a precious sort of infantile phase, it's intended to become the core of your being, and most churches will encourage that. In fact, there are a lot of religious people (especially the other children who don't know any better and adults who act like children) who would tell Operetta that, since her mommy and daddy and brother don't come to church or pray, they are going to hell and she should try to get them to come to church with her. That's why I would recommend going to the church to find out what it is like before dropping her off each week.
The idea of an Ashrum or Unitarian church is pretty darn good, too.
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posted
That's true - I hate to suggest that churches might attempt to indoctrinate the girl and suggest that her family is going to burn in Damnation and Hellfire for not attending their Church.
That might be a tad rough on a six-year old.
Although you might consider asking her why it's important Mr. and Mrs. Opera go to Church.
posted
Unitarians are not Christian, per se. The term Unitarian refers to their lack of belief in the Trinity. Jesus was a man, only God is God. They do teach the general Christian moral system though, as they grew out of Christianity.
BTW, my brother got "saved" when he was around 12 years old. My mother (Presbyterian) and my father (Jewish) took him to his church (this was clearly due to the influence of one friend, who had also been saved by a particularly fundamentalist church). My father actually sat there and listened to preaching about how the Jews killed Jesus, etc. Must have been tough for him, but I think the contrast drove the point home to my brother. He quit the church on his own a short time later.
By the time he reached adulthood, he had become an atheist. Must have been my corrupting influence.
Also: I place the time my atheism began at the age of 6 years. That was when I really started to think about the whole thing.
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posted
*sigh* TMedina...I'm sure there are churches around that would do that. But I think you'd have to search for one, because I don't think they're *that* common.
Most small children want their parents to do things with them for a sense of support. It takes one heck of a prepossessed 6 year old to be comfortable going to do something without her parents. No matter how much she wanted to do it.
My suggestion? Find a church you don't find too objectionable and go for as long as your daughter wants to go. But I'm a bit biased. I think your daughter's request is one of the sweetest I've heard. My daughter, quite a bit younger, likes to tell me how the Lord is sad because he got in trouble for hitting her friend Josie. (Yes, this totally cracked me up, but scandalized a few of my more stiffly churchified friends.)
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Q: What do you call a dead Unitarian Universalist?
A: All dressed up with no place to go.
What is a Unitarian Universalist?
An atheist with children.
I'm not even sure if I am a UU. I suppose that removes all doubt.
A convict on Death Row, the night before his scheduled execution, was visited by the warden. The warden, in talking with the condemned man, said,
"Usually at this point, persons in your situation find great comfort in talking to a member of the clergy. With that in mind, would you like us to send the prison chaplin over for a visit?"
The convict replied, "Well, warden, I have to tell you - I was raised a Unitarian Universalist."
The warden then said, "Well, then, would you like to talk to a math professor?"
UU#1: "UUs don't know enough about the Bible."
UU#2: "Some of us are self-taught, and know a lot. Like me"
UU#1: "Oh, yeah? I'll bet you five bucks you can't recite the Lord's Prayer."
UU#2: "You're on. Now I lay me down to sleep, I pray the Lord my soul to keep, if I should die before I wake, I pray the Lord my soul to take."
UU#1: "All right, I was wrong, you're right -- you win."
On my last flight the attendant gave us instructions on what to do if the plane developed engine trouble. We were told how to use the oxygen masks that would fall and also instructed on how to use our headsets. "If the plane is about to crash you can dial up an appropriate message on the selector to your right. Catholics will hear a recording of the Hail Mary, Protestants will hear the 23rd Psalm, Jews can hear Kaddish, and the Unitarians will be treated to a roundtable discussion on flight safety."
quote:My daughter, quite a bit younger, likes to tell me how the Lord is sad because he got in trouble for hitting her friend Josie.
Did you leave off an "s" or did I miss a story?
I agree with jeniwren - I'm sure there are some out there, but most churches aren't going to scare a six-year-old.
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One UU to another UU when asked if they had read the Bible: "Hey! Started to - but I got half way through and the hero died."
UU's are basically good people, who, for the most part, try to live by the 10 suggestions.
A street corner evangelist rhetorically asked a passer-by, "Friend -- do you know what path leads to the denial of God and Christ straight into the arms of heathenism and atheism?"
"Oh, sure," said the passer-by. "The Unitarian Universalist Fellowship is just two blocks that way."
One day on the news it was announced that a comet would hit the Earth and destroy everything. The priests of the Christian churches announced that they had spent ten years praying and God sent them a space ship to leave Earth safely. The rabbis said that they had spent ten years reading Hebrew scrolls that taught them to make a spaceship to leave Earth safely. The UU ministers announced that they had spent ten years making a conference table large enough to fit everyone for a discussion.
posted
Hence the very good suggestion posted by someone else to inspect the Church before letting the daughter attend, unattended.
My mother grew up in a Hellfire and Brimstone Baptist church in Ohio - I couln't guess what the Sunday class was like, but human nature being what it is, I'd prefer to err on the side of caution.
posted
Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying the pastor is going to walk up and say "Operetta, your parents are going to burn in the eternal fires of Satan's oven." However, the other kids very well might. As I remember, there is quite a bit of discussion in sunday schools about how people should pray that their friends at achool/distant relatives/et al. get saved so they will go to heaven. All I'm saying is that if Operetta really buys into the whole thing and is even mildly intelligent (which I'm sure she is, considering the genetic material ) the subject of salvation for the rest of the family is going to come up.
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posted
My mother's mother went to one of the hellfire and brimstone churches, I think. Anyway, she wasn't allowed to dance as a teenager, I know that.
I don't think she was going to church the time that I knew her, and if she did, I never heard about it. I do know that when she did go, she was the only one in her family to do so. Her mother and step-father weren't anything active, her husband was staunchly nothing at all because his mother was Methodist and his father was Catholic and they argued about it all the time, and her father attended a Presbytarian church, I think.
So, my grandmother, left to her own devices, picked the one with the most stringent behavior guidelines. I always thought that was interesting. Of her daughters, two (my aunts) became believers in God but not in anything organized, and one became LDS.
I think the point of this story is that your daughter may surprise you. I will always, always love my grandmother and my aunts for being so accepting of my mother's choices.
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posted
What's the difference between a Unitarian and a Universalist? Universalists think that God is too good to send them to hell. Unitarians think that they are too good for God to send them to hell.
Q: Why did the Unitarian-Universalist cross the road? A: To support the chicken in its search for its own path
A man walks into the ladies department of Macy's, and shyly says to the woman behind the counter "I'd like to buy a bra for my wife". "What type of bra?" the clerk responded. "Type?" asks the man. "What types are there?" "Well" replies the clerk "there are many shapes, sizes and colors of bras, but there are really only three types, the Catholic type, the Salvation Army type and the Unitarian type." "What's the difference between them?" asks the man. The clerk replies "It's really quite simple you see. The Catholic type supports the masses, the Salvation Army type lifts up the fallen and the Unitarian type makes mountains out of molehills."
What do UUs have in common with Pontius Pilate? They ask, "What is truth?" and then don't stay around for an answer.
A UU meeting must seem strange to outsiders. A person will speak and says nothing. Nobody listens - and then everybody disagrees.
How many UU's does it take to change a lightbulb? Why would anyone want to change a lightbulb?
You might be a UU if . . . • you have ever been in an argument over whether or not breast milk is vegan. • when you dress for a formal evening out you wear a little black dress, pearls--and Birkenstocks (and your wife thinks you look great!) • you are unsure about the gender of God. • you own six pairs of Birkenstocks and your favorite pair needs to be thrown away. • you get Newt Gingrich confused with the Grinch who Stole Christmas. • the money you sent to the Sierra Club last year was more than you spent on your mother at Christmas. • you think the Holy Trinity is "reduce, reuse and recycle." • you study the "ten suggestions" instead of the "Ten Commandments." • the only time "Jesus" is mentioned at church is when someone trips or stubs a toe. • your child says to you before eating dinner at a friend's house "I'll remember to say my 'pleases' and 'thank yous' but I'm not going to say that dinner 'pledge of alliegance'." • You think a Holy day of Obligation is your turn to do coffee. • You get mail from committees you didn't know you were on. • You know at least two people who are upset that trees had to die for your church to be built.
A young woman walks into a fabric store and asks the clerk for 9 yards of filmy material. The clerk says "What are you going to make?" and the UU says "I'm getting married and am making a negligee for myself as a present for my husband." The clerk says "But 9 yards is way too much material for a negligee." The young woman says, "I know, but I'm marrying a Unitarian Universalist and they would rather seek than find."
Why are UUs the worst hymn singers? Because they are always reading ahead to see if they agree with the next line.
What does the KKK do when they find out that a Unitarian has moved into their neighborhood? They burn a question mark on his lawn.
At one Sunday morning service, in of the very big Unitarian churches in Boston, a man was making a ruckus in the back pew. After every sentence the minister spoke, he would shout, "Amen! Halleluia!" One of the ushers approached the man and spoke to him discreetly. "Sir, uh, we just don't do things like that here." "But I got religion!" "You certainly didn't get it here."
A man bought a brand new Ferrari. He wanted to get a blessing for it, so he went to see his priest. "Father O'Hanlon, can I have a blessing for my Ferrari?" "Certainly, my son, but what's a Ferrari?" The man was so incensed that the priest wasn't impressed with his new car that he went right up the street to the first Protestant church he saw. "Reverent Schmidt, can I have a blessing for my Ferrari?" "Naturally, but what's a Ferrari?" The man took off again and stopped at the synagogue two blocks away. "Rabbi Zimmerman, can I have a blessing for my Ferrari?" "Of course. But what's a Ferrari?" At last, in desperation, the man wen tto the Unitarian Universalist Society. "Ms. Dibble-Fujimoto, can I have a blessing for my Ferrari?" "Wow!" she said. "You got a Ferrari? Can I have a ride in it?" The man took the UU Minister once around the block. He then asked, "Now, can I please have a blessing for my Ferrari?" "Sure. What's a blessing?"
What two things do UUs and Dracula have in common? They both have origins in Translyvania and they both shy away from the cross.
posted
To balance out the universe that Hobbes has created...
Why do Mormon women stop having babies at 35? Because 36 is just too many.
What do you get when you cross a kleptomaniac with a Mormon? A basement full of stolen food.
A kindergarten teacher gave her class a "show and tell" assignment of bringing something to represent their religion. The first boy got in front of the class and said, "My name is Benjamin and I am Jewish and this is the Star of David." The second boy got in front of the class and said, "My name is Thomas and I am Catholic and this is the Crucifix." The third boy got in front of the class and said, " My name is Johnny and I am Mormon and this is some green jello."
---
Why don't JWs get killed during earthquakes? They're always in your doorway.
Uh...that's all I can think of now. That makes me a failure, I think.
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posted
Wow. There are so many things here to add to my perspective. To be completely honest, I am scared of what will happen if she attends church. I know not all churches are fire and brimstone; I used to attend a lovely church that was nothing of the sort. However, I do know that people getting "saved" is a big push in most churches. I've also had some bad experiences with church-goers. Not too long ago, someone that I thought was my friend (and knows I'm an agnostic) made a remark that really cut me. It was something to the effect of "You just know when people are Christian." This comment was made when speaking about how someone had done her a favor. I don't want Operaetta to be like that. What if she saw me that way? (implying that I'm not a good, helpful person because I'm not religious) It's really really frightening as a parent to let your child pursue something that might end up painting you, and anyone who's different religiously, badly. Geez, this is gonna take a lot of thought.
posted
Interesting... Are there any mild moderate churches around? For example, my friend goes to this great Catholic church with nice soft music and bumper stickers that say " I am straight but not narrow." There are places like that. Perhaps she could even become a quaker. I like Quakers. I was once religions when I was younger.. I grew up SDA until I gree and the religion didn't but I remember reading about Daniel and Revelation at a young age and looking at the pictures of multi-headed monsters.
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posted
Good luck Opera - but don't let that off-hand comment discourage you.
If I'd done a good turn for your friend, she'd probably make a similar comment about me and we all know how wrong she(?) would be.
Which is why I suggested encouraging your daughter to think rationally and critically - one of the best classes I took but never completed successfully was an "intro to logic" course in college.
And I still grumble to myself, "hear what's being said - not what you want to hear."
posted
Too bad you couldn't send her to dkw's church. Though most of the United Methodists aren't as into the whole "saved" thing. I think I'd steer her the direction of the more "liberal" Christian denominations. Grandma of course will have a cow cause it is a liberal denomination but that might be entertaining too.
posted
I'd approach this puzzle the same way I would any other child rearing obstacle. I wouldn't place any more emphasis on it than any other topic. If you really find religion a negative then I would pass that along. If you are ambivalent about religion and wish for your child to find her own way then just be supportive and offer your assistance when she requires it.
You can allow her to explore while still tempering what she hears/learns elsewhere. I would advocate allowing her to explore her spirituality and taking time to discuss what she is feeling. Kids at that age will most certainly be eager to please their parents. Let her explore but keep a finger on the pulse of her feelings.
Posts: 2022 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
You've gotten a lot of good advice here, and a lot of funny jokes (*smile*), so I'll just add my anecdotal evidence.
My mom, while nominally Protestant, did not believe in organized religion. She got a little too much of it as a child (Grandma took all of her children to the big brimstone church). She respected my curiosity and took me to Sunday School and gave me fifty cents for the collection. I believe I was around six years old at the time, but I went with Grandma, so I had supervision. (By this time, Grandma was going to a milder sort of church. Still no dancing, but less wary of card-playing. )
I now go to church (ahem...intermittently...) on post (the Army base). What's nice about this is that they strive to embrace all sorts of Protestant schisms, so there are no altar calls and precious few exhortations to evangelism. I am leaning towards U.U., so the non-denominational nature of this church appeals to me. Do you happen to have an Army base near you? (I'm not being flippant, I think this is a viable alternative)
I also agree that U.U. might be the way to go. They have a wide variety of texts that they pull from, and accept questioning of faith far more readily (in my experience).
I have to say that your Operetta is very precocious and I find that delightful!
I think that if you decide to help her on her spiritual path, it would behoove you to sit in on the first Sunday School session, to make sure you feel alright with it.
This is a touchy situation. Best of luck!
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quote:My daughter, quite a bit younger, likes to tell me how the Lord is sad because he got in trouble for hitting her friend Josie.
quote:Did you leave off an "s" or did I miss a story?
Probably the latter. My daughter (she's 2 and a half) talks to me on the way home from school each day. One week, the theme of the talk was about not hitting.
Monday: "Mommy, you should say sorry." "I should?" "You hit my friend Josie."
Tuesday: "Mommy, it's not okay to hit. You hit my friend Josie. That's not okay." (said in a very serious, very severe two year old lisp)
Wednesday: Rainbow: "The Lord is my Shepherd." Me: "Oh sweetie, that's so nice. Yes, the Lord is my Shepherd too." Rainbow: *long pause* No, the Lord is not my Shepherd. *longer pause while I tried not to laugh* The Lord is sad. *shorter pause* The Lord is sad because he got in trouble. He hit my friend Josie.
When I was agnostic, I used to worry that the preschool my son went to (and my daughter now goes to) would corrupt him since it was run by a church. Now I can see that the theology doesn't exactly run deep at that level. Posts: 5948 | Registered: Jun 2001
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jeniwren, is it possible that Josie's mommy hits (or hit) Josie, and that Josie told your daughter this, and that--not uncommonly for a two-year-old--your daughter thought that when Josie said "Mommy," she was referring to you?
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This is the funniest 'Mormon' joke I could find:
quote: President Hinckley had just finished conducting a Devotional at BYU and was being driven by limousine back to Salt Lake City. Having never driven a limo, he asked the chauffeur if he could drive for a while. Well, the chauffeur didn't have much of a choice, so he climbs in the back of the limo and President Hinckley takes the wheel. President Hinckley proceeds to hop on I-15 and starts accelerating to see what the limo could do. He gets to about 90 mph and, WHAM!, the flashing lights of the state Highway Patrol appear in his mirror. President Hinckley pulls over and the trooper comes to his window.
The trooper, seeing who it was, says, "Just a moment, please, uh, sir, I need to call this in." The trooper radios in and asks for the chief. He tells the chief, "I've got someone REALLY important pulled over and I need to know what to do."
The chief replies, "It's not the Governor, is it?"
The trooper replies, "No, even more important."
"It isn't the President, is it??
"No, keep going...", replies the trooper.
Well, WHO the HECK is it!?", demands the chief.
"I don't know for sure. But he's got President Hinckley for a chauffeur."
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She has a grandmother who...umm...thinking...is basically a Jesus freak. The kids don't see her often, but they did visit with her recently. Normally after visits we have to "de-Godify" my daughter, as Mr. Opera puts it. The kids normally only see her 1-2 times per year.![[Evil]](graemlins/evil.gif)
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